Truth: We’re building an NBN that only a mother could love


This article was originally published for Delimiter Members only. In late September 2016, Delimiter ceased publishing new articles. Because of a number of operational and other factors associated with this decision, we subsequently withdrew membership articles from publication. If you would like to see a copy of this article, please contact Delimiter directly with your request. Requests by Delimiter Members will be granted. We will consider all other requests on their merits.


  1. If it’s by someone else, can I get the link to the source? Or is this posted under your paid/hidden section by him?

    • Money doesn’t grow on trees, and time is worth something Dylan. Pay the money and read the article. People who create quality content deserve to be rewarded.

      P.S. No, Renai (or David) didn’t put me up to this, it’s a personal belief of mine. Good will doesn’t buy the groceries, and I’m pretty sure Renai or David aren’t Bruce Wayne (because otherwise, they’d always be Batman).

      • Thanks, but I’ve already addressed this with Renai multiple times and he has refused to come up with an affordable package for people who don’t have lump sum payment ability. He has been a pretty big dick about it too. I’m pretty pissed at Renai for throwing me and everyone else in a ‘theyll just download my entire backlog of articles in a month and cancel’ bin. As if articles from 6 months ago are even worth anything in this space. I offered to pay more per month, but Renai doesn’t want money apparently.

        Last month there was 10 articles. So basically it’ll be $1 an article, but I have to buy 70 articles in advance.

        Quite pricy if you ask me. I acknowledge the quality of the journalism but I simply am not paying a 6 month sub when every other place I subscribe to does monthly updates.

        FFS Renai, get your shit together and stop being afraid of people paying monthly.. work it the fuck out. I WANT TO GIVE YOU MONEY EVERY MONTH. WHY WONT YOU TAKE IT?

        • OK … I won’t reply after this, because I don’t want to inflame the issue.

          “Quite pricy if you ask me.”

          That’s your judgement call, and it’s a valid one. Others might disagree, but price is certainly a decision point every prospective subscriber needs to take into account.

          As for Renai being a d*ck about it … he’s entitled to be (although I suspect that’s more your frustration than his attitude talking there). His concerns are pretty legitimate by the way, there’d be a whole bunch of people who would do exactly that (download his entire catalogue of articles and cancel the subscription). Maybe not you, but c’mon, be realistic here … it would happen.

          It’s his livelihood. Would you work for free? Just because his non-monthly subscription model doesn’t fit you doesn’t give you license to insult him. He’s running a business, he’s entitled to do so as he sees fit. Save up for a couple of months in advance, then pay for a six month (or even 12 month) sub. Or not. You’ve acknowledged that the writing is worth it, so it’s not like you’re getting ripped off here.

          And just to throw some perspective in here … I wish my Microsoft Action Pack subscription ($495 USD) was charged monthly … but it’s not.

        • hey mate,

          I’m sorry that you feel this way!

          Unfortunately the model is working quite well and Delimiter is getting new subs every day, so there is not a lot of motivation for me to change it at this point. All the modelling I’ve done, as well as past experience, shows the vast majority of people buy yearly subs.

          In terms of the amount of content being pumped out … I suspect you’ll be pleased with it over the next few weeks :)



          • Hi Renai,

            I enjoy your work, but can’t justify a sub – however I would be prepared to pay on a per article basis for access.

            Just a thought….

          • I’m in the same boat as Nick, I cannot justify dropping the dosh on a sub, but would happily purchase articles on a per view basis if it were available.

          • “The vast majority of people”
            What about the ones who aren’t? Are you going to completely stiff them?
            I fail to understand your logic there mate.
            You make more money by appealing to the masses, basic business tactics.

        • Dylan I don’t understand what the problem is, I haven’t subscribed myself but there are plenty of other articles that don’t require subscribing, even so $129 really is not that much (In theory I would consider it but the payment options are not suitable for me)

        • Not to mention that a monthly sub option results in much more admin (e.g: 12x as many chances for payments to fail.)

          Also, having worked in customer service in another life, i guarantee that there are PLENTY of people out there who would only subscribe for 1 out of every 3 months.

        • I actually agree with Renai on this.

          He is still essentially 1 man doing this. The extra work from having to process monthly etc makes it prohibitive.
          Not only that but there is the issue of buying 1 month then having access to everything. I don’t know the effect that has on Renai, but it does cheapen his work a little.

          I definitely don’t think he is “being a dick” about it. He has added a 6 month option, for those of us who can’t get a full year together in one go.

          I still haven’t taken it, but that is due to my personal financial situation rather than any issue with the overall cost.

          I think a per article price, where they literally only get access to the article paid for might be worthwhile, BUT again that would become an enormous amount of processing for potentially a one off payment.

          If Delimiter was a larger organisation, with more staff and a larger reader base, then yeah I’d probably clamour for a monthly as well, but as it stands, I think Renai is doing the best for us that he can without short changing himself(he does have to eat you know).

          • The 6 month option is a very good one. If you can’t set aside money over 6 months and not spend it, there’s a question mark over your ability to pay any bills.

  2. Wow, that picture really sums up the ugliness that is MtM and the LibTards destruction of it!

  3. If I was the mother I would demand an abortion.

    Such a disastrous waste. We warned them many years ago but they did not listen, these imbeciles thought they knew better than the experts and this is what we have to show for it. Coalition clowns don’t mind wasting time and money on this rubbish. Proving that political point is much more important than any financial concerns. Turn NBNco into GimpCo, make a patchwork for the clueless copper fanboy knuckle draggers and this is what is has come to.

    25mbps promised for all by the end of 2016 with just 263 days left.

    Replacing copper with copper wasting millions.

    Incompetents running GimpCo.

    HFC known as “operation clusterfuck”

    Our broadband ranking getting lower due to this destructive policy.

    FoD a joke.

    $56 billion.

    Delays, delays and more delays.

    Mongrel network an understatement.

    It’s an insult to the ugly dog.

    • “We warned them many years ago but they did not listen”

      I assume you mean the LNP, HC. While I can’t talk for the whole LNP, I can talk about Malcolm – we know Malcolm knew what he was doing because he was told about it, he was fully informed. This isn’t a clusterfuck in terms of things going awry, this is a clusterfuck in terms of the terrible, irreparable mess they’ve made very deliberately and knowingly.

      The ones we needed to be warning were the electorate that voted these criminals in. But it’s hard to do so without a platform to communicate to a mass audience. And my experience shows this is mostly a waste of time anyway – people are quite happy to twist themselves into all kinds of inconceivable mental knots to avoid admitting their preexisting opinion might not have been correct. They continue to back politicians or parties out of desperation to not be wrong.

      So the LNP might be the criminals responsible here, but the Australian people were the ones who put them there, with every opportunity to have educated themselves prior to the last election, too. There’s no point expecting the LNP to change their spots. Effort is far better spent changing the minds of the small number of conservative voters who might actually listen to reason. Good luck finding them!

      • The ones we needed to be warning were the electorate that voted these criminals in

        They were warned too but since the election was clouded by other issues it was more convenient for them to get sucked in by the media lies regarding NBN too.

        And my experience shows this is mostly a waste of time anyway – people are quite happy to twist themselves into all kinds of inconceivable mental knots to avoid admitting their preexisting opinion might not have been correct.

        So true, we see evidence of this on Delimiter everyday.

      • “The ones we needed to be warning were the electorate that voted these criminals in.

        It’s a good thing our elections are not decided by just one policy. We–all those who shared my view–felt that in spite of the probability the NBN would be substantially altered there was an urgent need to install a government that actually knew how to run a country. We were sick and tired of endless squabbling and speculation over whether one faction or the other had the numbers.

        We–the electorate as a whole–magnanimously gave Kruddard a go, and they stuffed it. Again. We gave the Priest a go, and it looks as though we’ll have to turf 2X. But we, the electorate, never decide based on only one program. That only happens in LaLa Land.

        • However retrospectively it turns out they overall did a pretty good job, the liberal gov turned out to be the real lemon!

          • Yes, unfortunately the LibCo did break the cardinal rule that you never choose a head-kicker to be PM. We were all worried about this choice. OTOH, only certain deities knew which Union Thug would have replaced Kruddard…

            Hobson’s choice.

          • Here’s the thing, at lest the alp as a whole generally tries to work for the ppl, the LNP only work for big corporations.

          • “Here’s the thing, …” I see and understand the basis of your thought. Unfortunately, as a result of the class warfare we brought with us from Mother England, politics is all about Us vs. Them.

            Both Us and Them depise Karl Marx, who with his good mate Friedrich Engels stated at length that we have an absolute need for both workers and wealthy capitalists: if we abolish the capitalists (see post-revolutionary Russia) we have no capital to build and maintain factories or farms. If we eliminate our workers (see post-revolutionary Russia, North Korea and Kampuchea) who will run the factories and farms?

            Robert Menzies put the Liberal Party together in 1948, with a slogan: “To govern fairly for everyone”. Unfortunately, Sir Robert could not understand the evolution of adversarial democracy. He still believed Australia was a classless society.

          • Gordon, I’m talking about the last 20 or so years, the evidence is there if you bother to look.

            I’m a reformed Liberal voter (I’d never voted ALP or Green till 2007 after voting Lib for more than a decade) who now votes on record and evidence, I dont think the ALP is perfect, far from it, however their record of looking out for the 99% is substantially better than the LNP’s.

          • 20 years… That couldn’t possibly be when the electorate put Johnny Howard in would it?

            Looking after the 99%. Like the Dawkins education reforms that wrecked (I’m looking at WA here) a perfectly functional Tech Ed and University system. Like the National Training Levy which only applied to permanent staff and within a fortnight changed Australia permanently to Casual Labour as the dominant employment paradigm? (Yes, literally, within a fortnight!)

            Oh yes, I’ve still got (somewhere) Paul Keating’s proposal for The GST. I actually thought when I saw it, “You bloody Ripper!!!! We can sort the mess now!” And I do still have the proposed legislation for the Australia Card, which I have the honor of having campaigned against despite it being one of the best proposals I’ve ever seen–except for one teensy weensy bloody great LIE. When you say the personal informatin is protected by law, it had better be protected. But it wasn’t, anybody who asked could get it.

            I have never claimed LibCo is perfect–they’re all pollies just for a start. But having seen and lived the results for the last 70 years, I reckon I’ve got it sorted correctly.

          • I call bullshit gordon.

            The 2 party system is broken, the only way to ensure that the major parties don’t run roughshod with their idealist believes is to ensure a strong cross bench. There needs to be independents and small parties for it to work properly.

            I personally have voted Labor, Liberal and Green in the past.

            The key thing is tho.. that is the past. Based on the current, I’ll not vote Labor or Liberal, until there are very significant changes in the radical elements of both parties.

            My vote will likely go Green. Because they have consistently shown a more moderate and informed tendency towards policy.
            This moderation is absolutely required at the moment to curb the worst of the ideological excess of both parties.
            They will not hold power in their own right, which means that their own more volatile environmental extremes will be curbed as well.

            At this point, I can see no option other than the greens.
            The Coalition have repeatedly shown their extremist agenda, and have proven unable to show anything like the economic credibility they are supposed to have.
            Labor aren’t much better, repeatedly favouring unions over the good of the nation. That said, they will receive my preference at this point. As they are not currently beholden to the extreme right and religious lobbies.

          • Same here Wolfe, but I’d preference Labor 2nd simply because I dont want the current hard right nut job liberal party back in power, they’ve done nothing constructive in 3 years!

            At least when I voted Liberal in the 90’s and 2000’s John Hewson and John Howard were leading competent teams. These days the Liberal party is mostly a bunch of lunatic ultra-conservative nutters whose so called “economic theories” a down right destructive!

        • And how did that work out for you? I agree on the Rudd issue, but that was pretty much forced on them by every moron buying into everything Murdoch said and the problem so many have in this country with her not having a penis.
          The current cluster fuck of a government is way worse than anything that happened under Gillard.

          • In terms of the NBN, my household was always shielded by the area we live: FTTP was a certainty, only the timing was at stake. Pure luck :~

            In terms of everything else, I have to quote a workmate: “If we get Labor, we get wonderful wages, but I doubt we’ll have a job. If we get Liberal, we at least get to feed the family.” My family is fed and housed, AND we have 25/5 (my choice!) so I can’t complain :)

          • Agreed, most of the Gillard gov’s issues were the result of constant negative media propaganda, the Gillard/Green gov actually got a lot right.

          • Gordon, if we had an LNP gov during the GFC we’d have an even worse economic situation than we do now!

          • ““If we get Labor, we get wonderful wages, but I doubt we’ll have a job. If we get Liberal, we at least get to feed the family.” My family is fed and housed, AND we have 25/5 (my choice!) so I can’t complain :)”

            Yes, your workmate must have all the data and research to backup that claim.

          • @Derek O – Labor did indeed get one and a half things right this time. They started the NBN build, and they put Sky Muster in a position where it could not be changed in any way. For those two, the Nation should be eternally grateful, as with Medibank/Care and Compulsory Super.

            As for the GFC, I remain to be convinced that any political party could have affected the Oz experience. Both Labor and Liberal made so many economic mistakes post-Federation it’s lucky the Poms or Yanks didn’t take us over as a Failed State! We owe the evil greedy banking system a huge vote of thanks for our good fortune during the GFC. And while I’m here, kudos to the Union Movement for putting together the Industry Super Funds which preserved my ass in those years. Credit where credit is due.

          • Well, a mates opinion, that’s pretty convincing. I’d prefer to look at policies and performance rather than treating politics like Holden vs Ford. I’ve voted Liberal, voted Labor, mixed it up in the one election between the ballot papers. Good government is about Liberal or Labor, it’s about the MPs representing that party at the times and their policies. Yes, I am not voting Liberal now, for good reason, their policies are not for the people or the family, they are to benefit the rich. For a high percentage of their senior members, that have to be given a cabinet position, I think calling them morons would be a kindness.

          • @ R0ninX3ph – When you’re at the coal-face you get to see the socio-economic data days and weeks before the academics do. And it should always be remembered that blue-collar does not mean uneducated. 3 of my workmates are over-age chartered accountants and one has a Masters or something in Economics. Another 5 were small business owners.

            So yes, my workmate did indeed have all the data and research, as did we all. It’s called “Experience”, and sometimes “Empirical”.

          • Accountants always favour the Libs, nothing new there, my father is an accountant and favours the Libs. The reason is that they make it easier for accountants to make money through the various loopholes and tax breaks the Libs like to create to make money through investment. Hey, if you invest your money, the Libs have you covered. If you prefer to use your own skills and effort to make money rather than creaming a percentage of other people because you have some money behind you, then not so much.

          • I am at the literal coalface myself.

            I am in the Coal Industry. A perfect example of the idiocy of the Coalition.

            Anyone with a view to history knows Mining is cyclical. Always has been, always will be. We had a very good mining boom. Now being followed by the inevitable bust.

            But rather than work towards that eventuality (That damn near everyone saw coming), and investing in areas other than mining during the good years. Instead they shored up and supported mining over everything else. During the Howard years, we lost ground in every industry except mining. These were the years when our dollar was rock bottom. We should have been building up our manufacturing, our agriculture, certainly our tourism etc.

            We have now almost missed the boat on renewables. Because of some idiotic ideology. Even if you don’t believe in climate change, the reality is the majority of the world does and is moving towards renewables, but rather than jump on that bandwagon, lets prop up coal, and kill off foundling renewable industry.

            Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

            The auto industry. Estimate was that 32 billion dollars came out of the industries associated with the Auto industry. We were subsidising to the tune of 4 billion. Sure we could have improved some things there, but to kill it totally. Real fucking smart.

        • “urgent need to install a government that actually knew how to run a country. ”

          What like how we had a debt and deficit crisis that miraculously has disappeared under the LNP all the while they have… what was it at last count… tripled our debt?

          Yeah…. They sure know how to run a country, they run it like Japan…. constantly borrowing more and more money to give to their business mates, while screwing the working and middle class with higher taxes and reducing taxes for the wealthy.

          • “… miraculously has disappeared under the LNP …”

            2013 to 2016… What, two and a half years… Now that would truly be a Biblical Miracle! It took Malfunction Fraser 6 years to erase Whitlam’s disaster, and half of Howard’s term was necessary to ameliorate The World’s Best Treasurer’s legacy.

            I’ve aready stated it looks like 2X may have to go.

          • You ignore the point I made, there was supposedly a debt crisis under Labor, and yet it is now gone whilst the debt is going up and up, but that isn’t a crisis?

            If you ignore that, it means you’re a shill…

          • @ gordon,

            Wow, the allegiances are certainly shining through now.

            Regarding debt and deficit.

            “2013 to 2016… What, two and a half years… Now that would truly be a Biblical Miracle!”

            That was just one of the many broken election promises. We were promised budgets in surplus from the first budget and every successive budget following…

            Yet the deficit is now crazily worse (about doubled in just 2.5 years or even before, iirc).

            Worse:- ‘of poorer quality or lower standard; less good or desirable.’

            So a promised biblical miracle?

            Feel free to blame the others, any time now…

            Oh wait.

            You’re welcome

        • @ gordon

          Whilst I don’t like politics or don’t “normally” have favourites, I do follow politics, after all we are the pawns they are fucking with…

          “…there was an urgent need to install a government that actually knew how to run a country.”

          But unfortunately the exact opposite occurred…didn’t it?

          We had Abbott and Hockey who were, without doubt, completely out of their depth (where are they now? Point proven). WTF?

          We had multiple broken election promises, probably more than any other government previous. WTF?

          They introduced a harsh budget, to fix a fictitious/electioneering slogan of debt and deficit disaster. Proven fictitious, as both debt & deficit are greatly worse now under this government than when they were when they were in opposition. But the government now claim our currently worse than the debt and deficit disaster economy, is the envy of the world, WTF?

          Whilst hitting average Aussies to fix a budget crisis which wasn’t, they quashed two revenue streams from big business. In fact instead of taxing big polluters they now pay them to pollute, less. WTF?

          They told us we had to take our medicine via the harsh budget, even including broken election promises, which they pretty disgracefully described as “efficiency dividends” (this apparently made it all fair and lovely). As we were told the age of entitlement is over (and that the less fortunate didn’t drive cars anyway – while the elite flew down the road in fucking choppers). All the while, announcing cuts here and cuts there/introducing more charges, for the most vulnerable. WTF?

          Until of course their own snouts in trough situation looked in jeopardy, as the polls reflected how out of touch these people were and they saw the writing on the wall and they quashed a lot of their draconian policies. Thank F

          Then came something they’d never, ever do like the other motley crew, they also sacked a duly elected PM. WTF?

          And the list goes on…

          So run a country? No

          Squabbling? Yes

          Factions wanting their control? Yes

          So we gave Abbott (or in your speak Abbottard) a go and he fucked things completely and now Mal in an election year, him being a central (dare I say, with a twist of left) small l liberal, with the loonies on the far right having had that taste of blood and wanting it back… Mal’s too scared to do anything.

          So IMO, anyone who thinks the last 2.5 years of government “judged on it’s own merits alone” (regardless of what any previous government did or didn’t do – because previous governments were voted out and these guys were voted in)… was/is successful and not the worst government in living history, is dreaming or a subservient fool.

          Again IMO.

          • “or in your speak Abbottard” You missed all the times I have always referred to Abbot as “the Priest”. The term “Kruddard” is a portmanteau which I have used frequently. You should now be able to work out the meaning.

        • @Rizz, @R0ninX3ph – I didn’t ignore R0nin’s point. I showed clearly that 30 months is simply not enough time to erase financial disasters.

          For your erudition, here are some links: (unfortunately does not include Abbot’s administration); ; ;$File/Australian%20Government%20Budgets%20BP%202%202010.pdf (produced for Kristina Keneally’s NSW administration in 2010, but still useful). The basic tenor is that due to interest charged on debt, it takes longer to discharge it than it does to acquire it.

          We might also want to consider that the only meaningful context of “budget surplus” is that of a profit-making private enterprise. Governments (regardless of political stupidity) don’t run at a profit or loss. We are no longer shackled by Royal whims and levies. More importantly, state budgets must be supported by taxation income: if that doesn’t arrive, then we have a “budget deficit” which should be addressed in the next Budget; and a “budget surplus” is equally to be addressed in the next Budget as it is equally undesirable, since it means the taxation is too high.

          It is worth noting that Aussie dreams are based on a very flimsy taxpayer base. We simply do not have enough taxpayers (that’s factory employees) to fund the grandiose schemes dreamt up by our elected leaders. Forget all the dribble about the rich paying no taxes, what on earth gives you the idea we’re different from any other nation in that regard? Get real. The USA has more rich folks paying no taxes that you can possibly have nightmares about.

          My opinion is that all talk of “budget emergency”, whether light pink or pale sky-blue, is all hype aimed at gathering support from weak-kneed hypersensitive under-educated electors so they can actually have the government make a profit. That is, over-tax the electors and (if we can get a green enough popular cause) squeeze some out of private enterprise, while we legislate some defunding of Public Service. Rather like the “Super Tax” on Really Big Mining companies, in addition to the State-based royalties.

          “We were promised budgets in surplus from the first budget and every successive budget following…” (Rizz). And you believed it? “… there was supposedly a debt crisis under Labor …” (R0ninX3ph). And you believed it?

          “… they also sacked a duly elected PM.” Obviously you don’t remember Gorton’s removal. Yes he fell on his sword, but really it only served to lessen the bloodshed, not eliminate it.

          @Derek O – we might want to recall the Pink Batts Scheme, the “Energy Efficient Homes Package”. Four young TAs died of electricity poisoning. Of course it’s not Krudd’s fault, certainly not Gillard’s. Nobody dreamt that so many no-hoper dodgy bros would leap out of the woodwork and shove untrained TAs into unsurveyed roof-spaces, did we? Of course there was no need to include training requirements in the legislation was there? All tradies and TAs are trained up aren’t they? Ummm, WHEN, WHERE and BY WHOM?

          I can see there are a lot of Labor diehards in this forum. I’m sorry I hurt your sensitive toes. I’m also sorry nobody noticed I give credit where it is due, and I have several times served it up to the Liberals. But I will always call it the way I see/live it.

          @Woolfe – The auto industry. There I disagree. Back when unleaded petrol was (at last) introduced to Oz, I wasn’t watching GMH, so I didn’t spot for a couple of decades how they cheated us. It seems that GMH had done exactly zero engine development after the Red Motor, so had no technology to use unleaded fuel. Solution!!! Put a Nissan (Datsun) engine in its place, nobody will notice!! This is the “Australian Car”?????

          Really, LibCo under the Priest didn’t kill the Oz auto industry. It developed severe anorexia and refused all treatment. Kind of like when Chamberlain Tractors of Welshpool, WA, tendered for a wetland tractor for an Aussie Aid program in SE Asia (I think) in the mid-70s. Only problem was, they tendered the Perkins-powered Countryman 6, a dryland tractor developed mostly for the WA wheatbelt. Already suffering from falling sales, John Deere snapped them up to form what is now CJD, still trading in Oz.

          @Tinman_au – Actually true Tinman. Check out the first graph in that useful PDF, around 2006-7-8. Krudd’s administration, no? But we did keep our jobs, and yes, the wage rise for us was, um, minimal. We didn’t have a militant union working against us.

          Is Labor to blame for the current state of NBN? Mostly. They never were too good at (forward) planning. Should LibCo be replaced in government? Yes. Or maybe we could find a suitable replacement for 2X. Does the greater electorate care about the NBN? IMHO not really. They have more pressing worries, like how the hell can we afford a new fleet of submarines, and will they actually work out of the box, unlike the Collins Class?

          • Gordon, compare the housing improvements industry deaths trends and you’ll find that 4 in one year is actually considered low for the building industry.

            As usual the media made it political to boost the liberal propaganda, it was private operators not the gov of the day that had the shoddy non compliant work practices!

          • But don’t you think the Government of the Day should mandate proper training for ANY class of workers? I find it difficult to believe that the Building Industry should be exempt.

            And yes, the LibCo should also have put something in place. We cannot afford to leave it to the States, look how many apprentice sparkies die in roof spaces because nobody taught them to NEVER TRUST YOUR EMPLOYER so always carry a current detector.

            But Labor is supposed to be for the workers, isn’t it? And? I wonder if the Evil Media had crapped all over a LibCo adminstration for something similar, what would all the Labor fanbois be saying then?

          • Gordon, we already have decades of oh&s and safety standards laws, it’s up to private operators to follow them.

            There simply read no need for additional laws, it’s a red herring!

          • I brushed over most of your ridiculous tainted points Gordon, because what I posted occurred, what you posted is phlegm, re-written by someone who has obviously loves one side of politics and despises the other.

            Why at NBN correspondences would anyone feel the need to deride former PM’s Whitlam and Keating, when they have had absolutely SFA to do with anything we are discussing here and then laud Menzies and JWH? Feel free to think whatever you will, but we are here to discuss comms, not your immovable politics. All you have done is shown your complete perpetual bias.

            You obviously hate Whitlam and Keating, so everything they and those who came subsequent to them do, is fucked…and love Menzies and Howard, so everyone who came subsequent to them is perfect?

            Anyway enough of you cyclopic politics…

            So to my points.

            1. Abbott and Hockey, are they still PM and Treasurer?
            A. NO, they were out of their depth and replaced… ‘as I said”

            2. Were there multiple broken promises by this gov?
            A. YES, “as I said”

            3. Was it a harsh budget that they had to tame down?
            A. Yes “as I said”

            4. Was there a debt & deficit disaster?
            A. Well if the debt has increased markedly & the deficit doubled in just 2+ years and those who screamed debt & deficit disaster no longer do so, in fact quite the opposite… NO there was never a DDD. “As I said”

            5. Did they do away with 2 revenue streams at the big end of town and in fact now pay big polluters to pollute less?
            A. YES. ‘As I said”.

            6. Did they tell us he age of entitlement was over, whilst some of them themselves, travelled around in choppers.
            A. Yes, “as I said”.

            7. Did they disgracefully make mention of people not driving cars due to their socio-economic situation.
            A. Yes, “as I said”

            And a newy…

            8. Did they completely fuck up MTM?
            A. Promised at $29.5B and for all by 2016 – Yes they fucked it up hugely.

            But I thought I’d mention your one comment…

            “We were promised budgets in surplus from the first budget and every successive budget following…” (Rizz). And you believed it? “… there was supposedly a debt crisis under Labor …” (R0ninX3ph). And you believed it?

            “And you believed it?”

            TBH no. But that doesn’t change history because I didn’t believe it or R0nin didn’t believe it. Many (if not the majority of Australians did).

            So in you slobbering, have to defend the indefensible… What you are now doing is suggesting that your precious Coalition knowingly lied and that’s ok to do that, because all’s fair in love & war… and everyone should have known, it was a lie.

            So, if there was ever a doubt of why you are here defending this MTM fuck-up, it has now been put to bed well and truly by inferring…

            “it’s the voters fault the Coalition lied because we are all gullible to have believed it.”

            Wow… more strange backwards illogic from the immovably ideologically illogical.

            You’re welcome

          • @Derek O – “… it’s up to private operators to follow them.”

            Spoken like a true Liberal! Where were the Unions?

          • Gordon, it’s true, the Safe work legislation is comprehensive and the onus is on employers to comply with it.

            Btw, here’s the stats for 2015:


            There were 26 workplace fatalities in the construction industry last year and yet Tony Abbott and the Murdoch propaganda machine made a huge deal out of 4 deaths that where due to private companies not following safety standards. The house fires where also caused by private companies not following Australian standards.

          • I can see you didn’t dispute my factual points Gordon, so kudos, we have progressed, thank you.

            So let me now ask you genuinely, the very same question you ask us, in regards to a debt and deficit crisis existing previously and the Coalition’s promise that they’d deliver balanced budgets continually…

            Q. “and you believed it”?

          • Gordon, we already have decades of oh&s and safety standards laws, it’s up to private operators to follow them.

            Exactly, and the LPA doesn’t like it, which is why they want to keep unions off work sites.

            During the period of WorkChoices and ABCC under Howard, fatalities for all workers increased by more than 25%, while fatalities for construction workers skyrocketed from an average of 2.5 fatalities per 100,000 to almost five fatalities per 100,000 workers.

          • @Gordon

            Actually the Unions did it. They made it hard for the Auto industry (not just GM by the by), to make efficiencies in areas such as automation etc.

            Not sure what your point is regarding the Datsun engine (Datsun made very very good engines).

            The point I was making 4 billion investment 32 billion return, and a substantial portion of the population gainfully employed and contributing to society.

            Now don’t get me wrong, the Auto Industry wanted out. Australian climate is painful to deal with when it comes to unions etc, and the high Aussie dollar didn’t help.
            But the reasons that coalition gave were a farce.

            Labor is only to blame for the current state, because they expected the coalition to act in the best interest of Australia.
            LibCo need to lose in order to shake loose the right wing nutters.

          • You’re not doing like another conservative true believer here are you Gordon?

            You asked ma a question and I answered your question.

            So to keep it simple, as I didn’t want to frighten you away, I simply asked you the exact same question (above).

            Your question wasn’t too frightening for me to answer, but it seems your own question is too frightening for you to answer.


          • @Godon here’s a really great article spelling out exactly what is wrong with the current LNP gov:



            Conservative politics has been taken over by privileged ultra-conservative Young Liberals, the IPA and the Hillsong Church who are assiduously installing their members into parliament. All the social, workplace and environmental reforms we fought for last century have once again come under attack.

            This is not the Australia I know and love.

          • @ Gordon.

            I’ll ask again (copy/paste from above) as it was ignored or not seen.

            “So let me now ask you genuinely, the very same question you ask us, in regards to a debt and deficit crisis existing previously and the Coalition’s promise that they’d deliver balanced budgets continually…

            Q. “and you believed it”?

        • Dunno what happened above, I must have hit Ctrl instad of Shift :[

          @Woolfe – I’ll agree with you about the unions, they certainly didn’t help.

          I can remember when 50% of cars on the road were Holdens, 47% were Ford and the rest was a sprinkling of everything else. But GMH and Ford pulled the plug as a direct reponse to the ever declining new-car sales figures. Aussies simply didn’t want them, and I’m not at all sure the price-point was a real factor. But yes, after shipping costs the price-point over-seas was indeed an impediment, as our design technoloy was only equal to everywhere else, not better. (BTW, my father bought one of the first EK wagons exported to Kenya, and it proved very reliable, economical and comfortable.)

          How many of their 4-cyl offerings had Aussie designed/built engines? Certainly none my ancient mind can remember! And the truth is, very few of those 4-cyls were much chop out of the city. Again, punters–like me–just preferred to put their hard-earned into what they saw as better products.

          About Datsun engines. We’ll ignore my personal bias here: as it happens they were good enough to keep many Aussies very happy–Nissan must have upped its game in response to a very harsh customer base :) My point is that surely to goodness an Aussie-icon manufacturer should have invested in an Aussie-designed lead-free six? And it would have helped if GMH and Ford had designed their own V8s here rather than relying on excess stock from the US. You’re either Aussie or not-Aussie, choose one. (Yes I do know both companies’ parentage.)

          • Interestingly iirc the reason most of us are driving Japanese cars now (aside from their general excellence) is a direct result of the Hawke/Keating Gov’s implementing a gradual phasing out of automotive tarrifs.

            I can recall considering buying a brand new Falcon GL or a brand new Mazda 323 and I’d have saved $2k by buying the Falcon. In the end I actually bought an 89 Ford Telstar which was essentially a Mazda 626 made in Sydney for less than the Falcon.

            GST aside, most of the significant economic reforms that underpin our prosperity where implemented by the ALP. The LNP rarely does anything big … I guess that’s why they are called “conservatives”.

          • “The LNP rarely does anything big … I guess that’s why they are called “conservatives”.”

            Can’t disagree. “Inventive” is not a word I could use to describe them.

            Tarifs… I know they were put in to “encourage” Oz inventiveness/self-development, it’s a shame the financial world wasn’t brought on board, so in the end it would seem the Hawke/Keating administration may have got it right. Perhaps.

          • @ Gordon.

            “Unfortunately, as a result of the class warfare we brought with us from Mother England, politics is all about Us vs. Them.”

            So much for that old mantra then eh?

          • @Gordon

            Holden did design and make their own V8’s (the 253 was an awesome small bore engine, pretty well bullet proof), up to 2000.


            You are entirely correct that Ford AU didn’t design their engines here here, they used plans from the US and made them here though.

    • it was never going to be possible to continue the KISS principle that pretty much underpinned the original rollout AND change horses midrace. adding that complexity just made it worse. we certainly did warn about this….

      what it actually makes me think of is calling a safety car in a motor race. up until then things are fairly static, keep proceeding around the loop while setting best times you can and occasionally come in and do up fuel or tyres. fairly simple right?

      once the safety is called though there is all sorts of confusion and everyones starting strategy goes out the window. and i know with certain v8 commentary teams they have mentioned their rule of thumb that safety cars breed safety cars…. all the confusion and complexity snowballs and quite frequently triggers new events.

      the difference here is you dont arbitrarily call a safety when a race is proceeding, even if it might be a bit slow for your tastes. and then ALSO ask teams to change cars to a spare, at 60kph down the main straight…. which essentially is what happened after the last election. and at the moment it is looking very much like the original event is going to – if it hasnt already – trigger another one with more complexity and mess.

      its a manufactured disaster that would never have happened, at least to the same degree, if that first ‘safety’ had never been called in the first place.

      if there is any upside, theres a salutary lesson in it; Labor will need to move very carefully if they are handed the reins again. the last thing we need is a third event to be spawned…

      • it was never going to be possible to continue the KISS principle that pretty much underpinned the original rollout AND change horses midrace. adding that complexity just made it worse

        Good point nonny. I think it was obvious to all (but a few) just how elegant and simple the original correct NBN plan was. It solved a slew of problems in one fell swoop and the added benefit would be a future proof network we wouldn’t have to worry about upgrading again unlike the diseased flea ridden mongrel that is the MTM.

        This destructive plan tries to solve one problem by introducing a ton of problems and at the end of it we need to solve the same problem we originally had plus the new ones that could have been avoided… There’s a reason why HFC is called “operation clusterfuck” but it’s just one clusterfuck in an even bigger clusterfuck full of clusterfucks (Inception was a terrible movie btw)

      • “… which essentially is what happened after the last election.”

        And after the previous one :) Don’t forget the Multi-Prime Ministership beloved by Labor. Yes, “the last thing we need is a third event to be spawned…”

        • “We” gave Libs a go… they did the exact same thing as well…

          So where does that leave us? Vote in a Greens government?

          Besides why should it matter? Last time I checked we were voting for “parties” in this system. Not the individual?

          • Why not a Green government?

            They actually have some pretty good policies of late, and have curbed a lot of their environmental craziness.

          • Indeed, I’ll be giving my 1st prefs to the Greens this year as I think they have demonstrated common sense approaches to most policy areas.

          • @Woolfe: Truth be told since the Democrats self disintegrated during the Howard years my votes usually go to Greens. I’ve always been of the opinion a good government is one w/ various inputs and independents to counter balance both major parties lest we end up utterly polarised like American politics.

            It’s still somewhat disappointing that folks saw the recent parliament w/ the independents holding some sway as a “bad” thing as if they were “ransoming” the country.

            The question was a hypothetical to folks who like to point out the “mess” Labor had when we got an exact carbon copy w/ the Coalition (ie. factional in fighting + change of PM).

            But folks would never even dream of ever voting a 3rd party in even as they ramble on about what Major party did wrong. People forget governments are voted in BY THE PEOPLE. If you don’t like *any* of the major parties then look for one that you would fall in line w/ the most instead of suffering Stockholm Syndrome to a party that no longer aligns w/ your views in the vain hope “they’ll get better” or they’re “lesser of 2 evils”

          • Rock, we can thank the MSM, particularly the Murdoch media, for pushing that “minority gov = bad” propaganda until it became “gospel”.

          • @Rock

            Yep I agree. The Democrats collapse was one of the worst things to happen to Australian politics.

            Fair enough on your hypothetical, it’s true. I have a guy at work, who constantly tells me I voted Labor, because I voted Green. The reality being I did end up giving Labor my vote in preferences (my local green doesn’t stand a chance unfortunately), but that initial vote is important, because the parties look at the voting patterns very carefully. If they keep seeing Green growth, they know they need to either attack or change their own policies.

            I too think the minority governments are not a bad thing. They can be, but overall the last one was very good.

  4. Renai, congratulations on getting David Braue to contribute to Delimiter. He was my favourite author on ZDNet – in addition to you :-) – when he was there and was one of the strongest voices of reason and analysis.

    Well done to David as well.

    • Hear hear.
      I was chuffed to see his name in lights, I always value his articles and insight

  5. A very entertaining write from David Brae.
    Happy to share the popcorn with Renai and David as this Mongrel tries to compete at the annual World titles, where anything but a pedigree is considered a 4 legged joke, cheaper, but not faster.

  6. However, with costs exploding and only 29,005 FTTN premises reportedly rolled out so far –


    The performance across the company was complemented by a number of milestones in the multi-technology mix, including the commercial launch of the FTTN product. More than 120,000 premises are now ready-for-service (RFS), with demand strong in initial launch areas such as Bundaberg, QLD and Belmont, NSW. More than 600,000 premises are currently under construction and a further 1,289,000 in design and preparation, with the company on track to meet the full year RFS footprint target of 500,000 FTTN premises.

    have left a nagging feeling that maybe, just maybe, it would have been better to just fix Labor’s FTTP rollout than to switch canoes midstream, as we have done.

    Just love speculation based on a ‘nagging feeling’ and plenty of ‘maybe’s’, any solution forthcoming on what the best way forward was to fix Labor’s FTTP rollout, or was that someone else problem?

    • You inflating FTTN numbers by including FTTB doesn’t make those premises FTTN.

      The reason the differentiation is important, is because we will have 4 million premises on FTTN and 500,000 on FTTB.

      The actual number of FTTN premises is important. As it is representative of how quickly the rest of the 4 million premises slated for FTTN will get their service.

      FTTN and FTTB have significantly different rollout speeds, and combining them, thus bringing the average FTTN rollout speed up, is completely and utterly disingenuous. But please, divert and obfusticate more mate, you’re so good at it.

      • They are not my FTTN numbers, they are NBN Co published numbers, both FTTN and FTTB models are Coalition models utilising copper to the residence end point, a key reason the rollout was at 120,000 RFS in February and increasing at a average of 8000 week.

        So FTTB is included in the FTTN figures and you don’t like it because you have a anti FTTN agenda, bad luck.

        • Yes, I have an anti-FTTN agenda. You are correct. Holy shit I finally saw the day when you said something factual that wasn’t shrouded in bullshit.

          I think FTTN was a great technology, 10 years ago, when (if it had been rolled out then) would have been a great step towards improving Australia’s broadband services (though at the time was derided as Fraudband by your favourite party and your ilk).

          It is now 2016, where FTTN is fast becoming obsolete, you can talk all you like about newer copper technologies like G.Fast extending the life of copper, which is great for copper runs sub 500m, or XG.Fast for copper runs sub 100m, but how many people on FTTN are within those ranges? With average copper lengths of 800-1200m on FTTN, around 50% for G.Fast and around 10% for XG.Fast.

          Those technologies are great, for those who will get access to them, which is not the majority.

          Which is why a universal FTTP network was proposed, to give access for now and all future bandwidth needs. FTTP even when it was announced, was already capable of putting speeds over fibre faster than they are currently spruiking with XG.Fast over 20m of copper in labtests.

          So yes, I am anti-FTTN in 2016, as it is technically inferior to full fibre, it is technically inferior to FTTdp, it is technically inferior even to FTTB, and it is also technically inferior to HFC. So, forgive me when I make statements saying that FTTN and FTTB are different, because they are.

          What was it? By June 2017 there will be more “FTTN” services ready than FTTP? Not bad… basically 4 years after switching to the MTM, they will be able to say they have more FTTN than FTTP. Dat speed.

          • Like it’s a sin to be anti-inferiority, anti-fuckup, anti-wasteful, anti-FRAUDBAND and therefore anti-fucking stupidity?

            Ah the logically impaired are cute aren’t they?

        • Lol devoid you already admitted that they used FTTB in those figures but you still using to claim its all FTTN.

          Or should we count the rollout to start back in 2013 when they made the switch.

          But now we have so far only 7% of FTTN connecting to 100Mbps compared to FTTB 15.7% and FTTB at 14%.

        • Did David Braue say –
          “However, with costs exploding and only 29,005 FTTN and FTTB premises reportedly rolled out so far”
          No he didn’t, he said “29,005 FTTN premises”
          Which is correct.

          • But NBN Co FTTN reporting includes FTTB, so if arguing a case against the Coalition MtM you have to make sure you exclude FTTB even though it is a key component of the MtM.

            You exclude key RFS figures that don’t help your case, otherwise you don’t have a case.

            Easy argument.

        • Interesting alain, how NBN™ implemented FTTB about this time last year. It was never promised by your heroes pre-election was it?

          So using your logic, that’s another broken election promise, because they never promised a FTTB improvement, they promised FTTN didn’t they?

          It’s just like when you blamed the others incessantly for breaking their pre-election promise by also improving their plan from FTTN to FTTP… If it wasn’t mooted pre- election it’s an election promise broken, isn’t it?

          I await a humorous but, but, but MTM… speaking of detour signs, moving the goalposts and before roads there were no roads. We’d better stay tuned to see if they also sneak in FttDp which you’ll readily accept too…lol.

          Even though you were always a self proclaimed FTTN supporter, only!

          You’re welcome.

        • So FTTB is included in the FTTN figures and you don’t like it because you have a anti FTTN agenda, bad luck.

          They report the actual number of FttB in their financial results, but “you don’t like it because you have a pro FTTN agenda, bad luck.”

          And from that, isn’t it wonderful that 52.69% of people getting FttP activated their service!

          As at 31 December 2015, 1,159,615 FTTP premises were ready-for-service and 610,978 FTTP premises activated.

          It’s a bit sad that only 5.37% of folks that got FttB actually activated though /sadface

          As at 31 December 2015, 123,574 FTTN premises (which includes FTTB premises), were ready-for-service and 6,636 FTTN premises activated.

    • any solution forthcoming on what the best way forward was to fix Labor’s FTTP rollout

      A start would have been to apply the same administrative practices as were applied when Turnbull was the minister, seeing as they seem to have such merit? This includes the reclassifying of service classes and scheduling to be more realistic. Good? Good.

      Cutting out the excess customer premises equipment, specifically, the utterly superfluous voice ports and multiple data ports down to one which is abundantly plenty on fibre. Even better yet, NTD and battery backup to be supplied by the ISP/other equipment provider/end user. A considerable cost and labour saver.

      Switching from FTTP to FTTB for MDUs attracts no dispute from anyone here. It would have been an excellent solution.

      Another little issue was that rollout progress and morale among workers almost completely went down the gurgler due to the uncertainty surrounding the change of government. Uncertainty that could have been avoided by the incoming government with a directive to maintain progress on current contracts for the benefit of ordinary Australians. Instead, ordinary Australians were stuffed around for two and a half years for no advantage in cost, time or affordability.

      Added to that, the fact that customer connections were due to begin on a large scale in 2014 and 2015. But this was forgotten in the name of politics, which again disadvantaged the same ordinary Australians it was designed to serve.

      In addition and very importantly, the application of the rollout efficiencies such as Project Fox and, later, skinny fibre and FTTdp that are documented to be in development.

      How’s that?

      • Indeed Martin. These are exactly the sort of efficiencies that could have been introduced.

        We the so called “Fanboys” are pretty much in agreement that there were some decisions by labor that were bad, but overall the plan was solid and future proof.

        The coalition could have come in and improved on the methodology and process as you suggest above. At which point Australia would have ended up with a world class infrastructure that would have lasted for 50+ years. They could have then gotten down to the brass tacks of sorting out the mess the ACCC made of the POI, and the problems with the CVC costs from NBN itself.

        Instead they chose politics and ideology.

        Labor should be trumpeting the Coalition’s failcake MTM at every opportunity.

        • We the so called “Fanboys” are pretty much in agreement that there were some decisions by labor that were bad, but overall the plan was solid and future proof.

          Hell yeah, Labor own the CVC and POI debacles…

          • +1 Those were the things I forgot. So there are quite a few items. That were ready to be adjusted by anyone with the worldwide and long-term context in mind. (Almost all new builds are FTTP, unless almost all are wrong. This is a new build.)

      • Actually Martin I honestly think that FTTB is a mistake, you tend to find a lot of professionals like engineers, architects etc living in City apartments who could easily take advantage of FTTP speeds above 100/40mbs.

        FTTB places speed constraints especially if using VDSL2 (G.Fast isnt approved for use in Aus yet). Add to that many apartment blocks have digital intercom & phone systems which arent compatible with xDSL technologies.

        • you tend to find a lot of professionals like engineers, architects etc living in City apartments who could easily take advantage of FTTP speeds above 100/40mbs.

          They could but they don’t, latest stats have 82% of FTTB residences choosing 12/1 and 25/5 plans.

          • Nah Tim, that ruins their story that Australians don’t want faster inturwebz.

            I mean, the CBA (aka the basis for all this bullshit in the first place) stated households will only want 15Mbit in 2023…. So…. Why are we even wasting money building a network that can provide more than 25Mbit? If 25Mbit is more than the 15Mbit we need in 2023, why are we wasting billions, spruiking speeds that are theoretical over HFC and Copper, if we don’t need it?

          • Devoid, how the hell would you know what the demand is, nbn has hardly passed any MDU’s and your ISP industry experience is ZERO!

          • @ alain

            “They could but they don’t, latest stats have 82% of FTTB residences choosing 12/1 and 25/5 plans.”

            Shouldn’t that be *** UP TO *** 12/1 and *** UP TO *** 25/5?

            If this is actually so, for one so pedantic (and strangely touchy) about his precious UP TO $56B (whoops now UP TO $57.6B) MTM fuck up, that’s quite hypocritical but typical of your perpetual bias…

            You’re welcome

        • Well, FTTP to FTTB for MDUs maybe some dispute :) FTTP for MDUs was a chink in Labor’s armour that was quickly exploited. With these project decisions you have to draw the line somewhere to keep the case robust and that didn’t happen.

      • “… with a directive to maintain progress on current contracts …”

        Like everyone in my suburb, were… perturbed? by the Priest’s elevation. Oh dear Deity we said, surely they wouldn’t? But they didn’t. I myself was advised by no less than 4 teams that “No worries, cob’, all these here have been signed off before the election. You’re getting FTTP.”

        All “current” contracts were–AFAIK–honoured. Only post-election contracts were re-written. But yes, uncertainty was rife, and should have been clarified. The Priest’s reign was no credit to LibCo. It’s what you get when you elevate a head-kicker to the top job.

      • Well, FTTP to FTTB for MDUs maybe some dispute :) FTTP for MDUs was a chink in Labor’s armour that was quickly exploited. With these project decisions you have to draw the line somewhere to keep the case robust and that didn’t happen.

  7. Poor Telstra. We’re really doing the company a disservice by selling it to them to take care of.

    Though at the same time Telstra is laughing all the way to the bank. Also, internet speeds in Australia slightly increase but we go nowhere in international rankings and we’re back where we started in 2009 with Telstra at the top and in control of the infrastructure market, but this time with far less retail competition.

    Will a future government make Telstra behave as well as apply pressure to upgrade the network as per British Telecom?

    Based on past performance in Australia, this is unlikely.

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