Shorten confirms Labor will shift to a “hybrid” NBN policy

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news Bill Shorten appears to have confirmed Labor will retain elements of the Coalition’s controversial Multi-Technology Mix policy if it won power in the upcoming Federal Election, in what the Labor leader described as a “hybrid” version of the NBN.

Speaking at Sky News’ People’s Forum last night, Shorten said Labor wouldn’t “rip up everything that Mr Turnbull has done” with respect to the NBN, because he didn’t believe “everything that the Liberals do is bad”.

“So we will do a hybrid of some of what he’s done but we will have in our announcement, which we will be putting out pretty soon, a greater proportion of the use of fibre and we will also look at the proportions of fibre and we think we can provide more of that to more Australians,” said Shorten.

He added that he believed Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, as Communications Minister, could have “done a better job” at providing more fibre in part of the NBN rollout, because that it would allow for better speeds and less buffering than the current system.

Shorten said Labor a government would be less reliant on the ageing copper network and will use a greater proportion of fibre in its plan.

The comments confirm what a number of commentators — including the writer of this article — have been predicting for some time.

It is believed that Labor is likely to retain the HFC cable component of the Coalition’s MTM version of the NBN, as well as Fibre to the Basement of apartment buildings. However, it is believed that Labor is likely to shift to a Fibre to the Distribution Point model for much of the remainder of the network build.

This will allow Labor to position itself as deploying significantly more fibre and higher speeds into the NBN build.

However, it is possible that Labor and the Coalition will end up supporting very similar NBN policies in this year’s Federal Election, with Communications Minister Mitch Fifield currently refusing to be drawn on whether the Coalition would support the NBN company shifting to a FTTdp model.

In a media release issued this afternoon, Fifield was scatching of Shorten’s comments.

“Labor leader Bill Shorten last night confirmed that Labor has backflipped on the National Broadband Network,” the Liberal Senator wrote.

“Bill Shorten’s credibility on Australia’s largest infrastructure project is in tatters, proving that Labor can’t be trusted to manage the transition of Australia’s economy.”
“For two and a half years Labor has attacked anything other than a network that built fibre to the premise, and attacked any use of the existing copper network. Last night, Mr Shorten confirmed that Labor would adopt the Turnbull Government’s multi-technology mix.”

Fifield said Shorten’s position on the NBN — to use more fibre — was already possible under the current NBN model, and confirmed Labor would support continuing to use Telstra’s existing copper network as part of the NBN.

“The Turnbull Government’s approach is open to the use of any technology, with a mandate to build the network by 2020 and within a set budget,” Fifield said.

“Close to two million homes and businesses can today access the nbn and there are more than 900,000 active users. That compares to Labor’s appalling record of just 51,000 users connected between 2010 and 2013. By connecting more users sooner the Coalition is keeping broadband affordable.”

“Australians are still in the dark on whether they’ll be asked to pay more tax for a Labor NBN or to wait longer.”

opinion/analysis
As I wrote in July 2015:

“There is absolutely no doubt that the Australian Labor Party will abandon its Fibre to the Premises National Broadband Network plan and adopt the Coalition’s alternative Multi-Technology Model as official policy before the next Federal Election.”

“In the next few months, [Jason] Clare and his team will be spending a great deal of time “drafting language” and “developing positioning” to plan the precise steps which will see Labor fall completely into line with the Coalition’s MTM policy.”

“It will no doubt feature a heavy emphasis on avoiding the words “Fibre to the Node” and “HFC cable” and stress how, at some vague time in the future, Labor plans on extending Turnbull’s vision to full FTTP.”

Since I wrote those words, we’ve seen the FTTdp issue come to the fore. I expect both the Coalition and Labor to shift to similar FTTdp models during the formal election campaign period.

Image credit: Parliamentary Broadcasting

143 COMMENTS

  1. Shorten said pretty much the right thing, and it was a sensible bridge for bipartisan support in the interests of Australia.
    Fifield… well, he did exactly what the Liberal party has been doing for the last 5 years or so.

    • Plus one, it’s the libs who politically sabotaged the NBN, the only adults here are the alp and greens.

      • It was Labor who made the decisions (speed tiers, 4 port NTD, overbuild HFC, etc.) that made it possible for MTM technology to deliver the same outcome to the 79% currently connected on fibre at 25Mbps.

        It was clear 8 years ago when Labor introduced speed tiers that it would never deliver fast internet to the majority of Australians.

        • Well now we don’t have a choice – 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 – The LNP have failed!

          If they did it right then not only would we be able to get 1gbs, we would provide nbn with increased revenue.

          Of course we wouldn’t want to give Australian’s world class infrastructure, adequate is all we need.

          • It’s not even adequate. If some places are buffering on Netflix now, how are they going to go in 20 years with data loads increasing exponentially?

          • You do have a a choice FoD. If you are in the 1% that Labor expected to order 1Gbps by 2026, then the cost of FoD is likely to be something you can claim as a work expense and will probably convince work to pay for.

          • @Mathew – the biggest issue most people have with FoD is the cost.

            People in the worst cases with FttN will be stuck on speeds well under 25 Mbps, but have no way of getting that speed improved without going to FttP.

            So what price is a fair one? Is several thousand dollars acceptable?

          • As usual for the “faithful” it’s ok to spend $70B (source: former Coalition Treasurer Joe Hockey) on FRAUDBAND, but not ok to spend sub $50B (source former CEO of NBNCo rolling out FTTP).

          • So what price is a fair one? Is several thousand dollars acceptable?

            Indeed, this article by Mark Gregory states the case against Malcolms FoD rather well.

            http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2015/3/19/technology/nbn-fibre-cost-shock

            This is an interesting snippet:

            While NBN Co is paying Telstra nearly $100 billion over the next thirty years for the copper in the street, maintenance of the copper and “help” to do the FTTN rollout, Telstra will retain ownership of the pits, ducts, traps and other key infrastructure.

            Why hasn’t the $100b been added on the the FttN costs like they did with FttP?

          • The price is what I keep coming back to as the simplest measure of whether FoD is a good idea or not. The has become a basic necessity, so if its much more than what it costs to get a new phone line or electricity line installed, it fails.

            Which doesnt happen when that installation is hundreds of meters long. It simply cant.

            FoD works with FttDP, it doesnt work with FttN. So where does that leave the hundreds of thousands, or millions, stuck on FttN?

            If you force them to pay thousands to get what everyone else gets, thats something laid right at the Liberals feet. No-one else to blame but them for their shortsightedness and stuborness.

            And it continuously sickens me that they try to sell that as the better option.

          • @GongGav
            > The has become a basic necessity, so if its much more than what it costs to get a new phone line or electricity line installed, it fails.

            What internet speed would you consider being satisfactory for the service as basic necessity? Currently 79% are choosing 25Mbps or slower (33% on 12Mbps). Are you suggesting that:
            1. Labor made a big mistake with speed tiers on the NBN and 12Mbps is too slow
            2. 12Mbps is okay, meeting the basic necessity guidelines and faster speeds are a luxury (Labor & Liberal position)

          • Mathew, 12/1 was never intended to be a normal data plan, it was intended for Voice only!

          • @Mathew

            I agree Mathew, 100Mbps, or even 1Gbps, for everyone would be very nice.

            But how do you/we pay for that? Can you point to a model that can cover the cost of it?

    • There will be no bipartisanship. If Labor support FTTdp, then LNP will be 100% against it.

      • No they’re going to say it was their idea they said it first, take their bat and ball and go sulk in kirribilli house for a while ;)

    • /giggle

      Really?

      After the years of listening to you lot flapping your gums about how the ALP was going to rescue you from the awful MTM, he’s now said the right thing?? \= |

      I wonder just how much bullshit you’re willing to believe to become absolutely immune to cognitive dissonance…

      Shorten is playing nice because he has no choice, they aren’t going back to FTTP for all and so he needs to swallow the Libs bullshit and pretend it tastes nice. That isn’t bi-partisanship, it’s pre-emptive moderation of the flak he’s going to cop for shellacking something then adopting it…

      And Fifield is a tool as well.

      ps. You’re comparing two turds and claiming one tastes better, whereas I wonder why you bothered eating shit in the first place… \= |

      • Yes thank you…org

        Back to the crib now, the adults are trying (in amongst such childish interruptions) to have rational correspondence here, tiger.

        Ataboy.

        • It ticks all my “winning the internet” boxes when a moron asks me to butt out of the conversation rather than address the points I’ve raised. You want to cede the floor with nothing more than a flaccid GTFO comment, be my guest. ; )

          • You have to admit he has a point. Adults are trying to have rational discussion here. Most of what you post is noise we would expect from a child trying a bit too hard to impress everyone.

          • /giggle… gave it away immediately…

            But regardless, gee, seems I hit a nerve and incensed you to such mouth frothing lofty heights, that you then in a fit of rage (nay infantile tanty) replied beating your chest (it was the chest ye?) and “simply proved my point beyond any (let alone reasonable) doubt.”

            And then I read below and you are still sobbing… PRICELESS.

            You’re welcome

      • That isn’t bi-partisanship, it’s pre-emptive moderation of the flak he’s going to cop for shellacking something then adopting it…

        Actually, that’s pretty well the definition of bi-partisan…

        • Pretty sad then ain’t it…

          With 3 minutes further reflection, it’s fucking terrible…

          This whole shitshow was because the two parties couldn’t have a civil conversation.

          /looks at Rizz’s comments

          Oh yeah, that’s what the voters are doing as well… I guess we can’t expect much more from them than we are willing to do ourselves… ; )

          • hardly surprising when one party in-particular is being lead around by ultra-right wing whack jobs and disagree with anything that isnt their idea.

            And then they take stupid to the extreme. eg FTTN was FraudBand in 2007/2008 and FTTP was a great idea (according to the current leader and deputy leader of the nats) until the ALP decided to agree with a genuine panel of independent experts and several years later FraudBand becomes our new NBN!!

            Fucking insane!!!

          • Pretty sad then ain’t it…

            Yeah, it is actually. I’ve lived long enough to have been under governments that have been both ultra partisan (the current lot) and bipartisan (many earlier governments, but even JH could be bipartisan when he saw it was actually something good for Australia).

            The bipartisan way definitely helps improve outcomes.

  2. For Fifield to blame Shorten for the LNP’s MTM failures is hypocrisy of the greatest degree. It is only due to the politics that Abbott and Turnbull played with the largest ever infrastructure project in Australia’s history that the ALP find themselves behind the eight ball. Labors point has always remained the same: FTTP is far superior to FTTN technology and the LNP move to FTTN has cost Australia years and billions of dollars on a network which will be obsolete if it is ever finished.

    Regardless, any move by either party to increase the percentage of Fibre in the NBN (whether by increasing FTTP or decreasing as much use of copper in the last mile) will be the best move possible for Australia.

    • For Fifield to blame Shorten for the LNP’s MTM failures is hypocrisy of the greatest degree.

      Exactly, if they’d kept adding FttP contracts while they fiddled around with FttN, they’d easily have doubled the number of RFS on the NBN.

      hypocrisy of the greatest degree

      Speaking of which, where is Reality??

      • Speaking of which, where is Reality??

        Still experiencing latency issues. Always at least one article behind. Desperately trying to put out all those FttP spot fires you see.

        • I guess we do need to give him some time to research what Mitch/Malcolm wants him to think.

        • I’d suggest he won’t comment until he has received his official memo and knows exactly what to say…after the rap on the knuckles he received years ago when he said “FttP can’t help but be successful”.

          Of course two weeks later (once the knuckles were ok and he could again type) he said FttP would FAIL (like the failed HFC…lol).

          Yes the same HFC he now refers to a lucrative…as per memo.

          • I’m still wondering when my city is going to get HFC… Oh, thats right, if you didnt get it in 1999, stiff shit.

            HFC is the highlight of the flaws in the pre-NBN system, with it cherrypicking its rollouts, even to the point of going past MDU’s and ignoring them as ‘too hard’.

            And now its the beacon of hope? Give me a break. It cant deliver the needs of NBN, moreso when all those MDU’s are connected and the user volumes go through the roof.

          • Multi dwelling units will get FTTB not HFC, the FTTB infrastructure model that Labor stuffed up and is now going full steam ahead as part of the FTTN rollout with 120,000 residents RFS in five months averaging 8000/week.

          • Reality, but I thought Labor was lumping FTTB in with FTTP to make their FTTP numbers “look better”?

          • Reality, but I thought Labor was lumping FTTB in with FTTP to make their FTTP numbers “look better”?

            Like Reality likes doing with FttB and FttN? :o)

            Kinda disqualifies him from commenting if he doesn’t know the difference between them really…

          • @ alain,

            Welcome back!

            I see 4 days later, that your memo and (or cheque ;) finally arrived… but that was the best you could do?

            No childish argumentativeness over word or two, no allegations of sock puppets, none of your PRICELESS contradictions, etc, etc

            Perhaps the Coalition have cut their (wait for it) “shill bill”, due to the $1.6B extra they intend to pay Telstra, presumably making this shitty FRAUDBAND/NODAFAIL™ debacle/failure, now UP TO (lol) $57.6B… and this payment is of consequence and hurting?

            If not there are other articles published since then, which you have neglected and yes, we miss you so… it’s so sombre`not having a jester in da house.

            You’re welcome

  3. Yup, after the last 3 years, NBN policy is now about damage control, rather than delivering what communications technology Australians deserve. Not much point in any IT-focused individual to stay in this country, for the foreseeable future.

    • The IT crowd supported a FTTP network where Labor planned for 50% to connect at 12Mbps and in 2026 <1% connecting at 1Gbps. It should have been clear to blind freddie that this would create a digital divide and provide an opportunity for alternative technologies.

      The failure can squarely be blamed on Labor, but the many fanbois who supported their plans because it offered the illusion of 1Gbps should hang their heads in shame.

      I still think the simplest best approach would have been to pay Google $20 billion to build Google Fibre here. Loon would be delivering better performance for rural communities.

      • The IT crowd supported a FTTP network where Labor planned for 50% to connect at 12Mbps

        Yeah, screw you “IT Crowd” guys and Labor for supporting choice /ShakeFistAtCloud

      • What re you attacking right now? Seriously, when labour saying they will do something basically the same or very similar to the coalition, why are you attacking them over it?

        Are you so partisan that you can’t see the benefit in policy that doesn’t stop outright the previous build and spend another two years trying to figure out how to proceed?

        • And it’s exactly these kind of libtard arguments that expose Renai’s claim that the alp is in anyway shape or form responsible for the politicization of the NBN!

          The libtard’s continue to prove on a daily basis that nothing the alp ever do or say is good enough and they will disagree with everything, even if the alp are taking a position the libs agreed with 5 minutes ago.

          • so does that make you a labtard? youre attacking the voters not the politicians. Voters voted on a range of policies, not simply broadband. the fact of the matter is, overall labor were a failure. Their internal meltdown cost Australia fttp. how about you stop abusing voters and lay the blame on the politicians?
            MTM IS LABORS FAULT. if they hadn’t imploded…

          • The ALP got a lot wrong but they also got a lot right – I dont vote exclusively for the ALP* so by definition, no, im not a labtard!

            *I’ve actually voted for the Libs more times than the ALP and I also vote Green on occasion.

          • PS, a decent swag of that ALP meltdown can be directly attributed to the constant press propaganda war that was lead by Rupert’s gang of Conservative goons as it eventually became a self fulfilling prophecy.

          • Jesus thats a fucking new one.

            Blaming Labor for the LNP choosing to follow the dumbest possible route for the largest infrastructure project Australia will see for decades….

            Yeah, if Labor didn’t lose the election then we wouldn’t have this absolute abomination of a network, yeah, perfect.

            OR… the LNP could have NOT made the NBN into a political football and opposed it for opposition sake, but no, now they are rolling out the very technology they deemed was Fraudband in 2007. Nah, totally its Labors fault.

      • WTF?

        Are you seriously suggesting the FTTP plan created the digital divide? Are you mad or just a Shill?

        $20 billion to Google? LOL. You clearly have no idea do you? Google wouldn’t have even answered the invitation for that amount. Idiocy.

        • At least he’s consistent.

          His argument all along has been “If 79% of people use 25Mbps, then that’s what everyone should use”.

          • Yes and without speed tiers, so we can all enjoy the unhindered wonderment of last millennium’s tech/FRAUDBAND/NODAFAIL™ in all it’s glory… i.e. UP TO 25mbps.

      • “Labor planned for 50% to connect at 12Mbps”
        And only 35% connected at that speed, making their plan more profitable than anticipated.

        “2026 <1% connecting at 1Gbps"
        "the illusion of 1Gbps"
        Stating a plan would be made available and then simultaneously stating that said plan is an illusion aught to make you hang your head in shame, but I doubt you'd even understand why.

  4. I would be more interested in seeing how Labour is planning to change the statement of expectations.

    Have the politicians set a direction, then let the technical people get on with choosing the technology.

    • I would be more interested in seeing how Labour is planning to change the statement of expectations.

      I’m hoping they don’t change it too much, they need to give nbn™ a tad more leeway to allow them to use FttDP, but if they try to switch it back to the old one, they’ll blow any chance of bipartisan agreement on the NBN.

      And currently, the whole NBN thing is way too partisan, which is what has turned the thing into a debacle.

    • As a suggestion, if they simply extended the time frame for analysis of finances beyond 2025 to 2030, or 2040 we would have a very different project to the current direction.

      The whole funding arrangement should be reviewed to reduce costs. The cap on government funding is arbitrary and political. It does nothing more than increase costs (the government can borrow at lower rates than a commercial enterprise) because politicians are currently too cowardly to question the overreaching (and rent seeking) hand of private enterprise in government.

    • Indeed Sam, using the government’s own figures, it’ll cost almost $15b for FttN maintenance (and that’s just the copper, it doesn’t include power, etc) in that time (vs $6b for the old plan).

      With the current cost of Malcolms MtM being anything up to $56b, this means FttN will cost up to $71b in straight build and maintenance of the copper by 2035 (remember this excludes other ongoing costs like power, etc).

  5. Just goes to show how much destruction the coalition clowns have caused in the last three years. What Shorten says is pretty vague though, he also needs to educate himself on the subject a bit more or else he’ll sound like a buffoon just like Abbott did. Clown Communications Minister Mitch Fifield just seems to be making assumptions.

    • Indeed HC (yes C :)

      I think it also shows that Shorten et al, don’t have the ticker to take on the rampant and threatened dinosaur MSM who crucified them previously.

      But as long as they aren’t as stupid as the current mob and don’t adopt FttN/FRAUDBAND and perhaps settle on FttDp, it’s an improvement over the current NODAFAIL™ joke network.

      Although still a retrograde step to where we were and especially could have been…

      • It shows that Labor understand that the 79% connecting on FTTP on 25Mbps or slower don’t really care. The 16% (down 3% in last 12 months) are simply not a significant political force and that FTTP with speed tiers is not a vote winner.

        • Ok so you are just trolling now. This is wrong for several reasons.

          First the 79% would still have covered the costs of the FTTP Rollout.
          Also the 79% is split into 12/1 and 25/(10 or 5). The percentage split is clearly greater on the 25 side, than was expected. The 12/1 percentage is 12%(I think) lower than was expected.
          Finally and the bit that most clearly shows you are either a troll or a shill, is that bandwidth usage doubles every 2 years. So what is acceptable today, will not be acceptable in 5 or 10 years time. FTTN does not provide the ability to grow with the needs of the nation.

          • Woolfe, his argument against that is because Telstra don’t offer 12/1, so clearly, all the people on 25/5 with Telstra would obviously be on 12/1 if Telstra offered it. Thus, the implication is that the 79% on 25Mbit or less is supposed to actually mean 12/1 because none of them would willingly choose 25/5 because Telstra.

          • Interestingly however R0nin, Mathew’s argument doesn’t seem to afford the same leeway at other end?

            I.e. factoring the lack of availability relating to the higher end plans.

            He still loves to factor those figures separately (including where not available too, I’m surmising) and not group them and other figures together, as he does his cherry picked gems…(I suppose to cover his perpetually wrong 50% on 12mbps 5 year rant)?

            So let’s do a Mathew.

            Using the above figures from my fellow posters (as well as 50mbps remainder), we have…

            79% opting for 25mbps or less – thank you Mathew.

            But only 12% of that 79% are on 12mbps – thank you Woolfe…

            Thus leaving 67% on 25mbps.

            16% are on 100mbps – thank you Mathew.

            Leaving the remainder (unless there are now 100+ plans too ) of 5% on 50mbps

            So in future when Mathew cherry picks and says 79% are on 25mbps or less – I’d suggest we answer him thus…

            …and 88% are on 25mbps or more.

          • @Wolfe
            > The 12/1 percentage is 12%(I think) lower than was expected.

            12Mbps is 33% on latest report from NBNCo. Lower than expected mainly because Telstra aren’t offering at 12Mbps plan. 25Mbps is significantly higher than forecast by Labor (higher than Labor’s forecast for 12Mbps + 25Mbps).

            You can find the numbers on the NBNCo Website in the Media Centre.

            @Rizz
            Please gain some credibility by actually reading the NBN Co Corporate Plans and the figures published on the NBN Co Website.

          • You complain a lot about speed Mathew, but I never see you comment on the fact that the activation rate under FttP was just under 60%, and the activation rate of folks on FttB is under 6% (123k RFS, but only 6k bothered).

            Personally, I’m very curious as to why that is…

    • What Shorten says is pretty vague though

      As it’s not the actual policy release, I think we can give him some room to move there, but I hope (expect?) the actual policy release to have a lot more detail (than Malcolms MTM brain fart).

      • Yes, that was basically my point tinman, it’s not a policy release so communications clown Fifield is just making assumptions based on virtually nothing. I think he is desperate and knows the MTM is an unmitigated disaster, wants to spread the blame around as much as possible but it doesn’t matter what Labors policy ends up being they’ll claim it is a “backflip” anyway when really it’ll just be making the best of a really bad situation they caused.

        • Yes, that was basically my point tinman, it’s not a policy release so communications clown Fifield is just making assumptions based on virtually nothing.

          True, I just expected to see a post from him raging about what is Labor trying to hide or something :o)

  6. Well Fifield, you bloody well know why Labor can’t backflip to FTTP even if they wanted to. Because there’s no money left. You and your horrible Liberal party wasted gazillions of ATM (Australian Taxpayers Money) on crappy inferior FTTN! Anyone with a brain can see that.

    Thank you very much, DuckFace!

    • The actual $ spend of ATM is fixed either way (.5Billion difference between two parties).

      How well that is spent is another matter. Also the main issue is no-one has time (2yr+) to reneg with Tesltra so that deal has to stand. The lengths of contracts signed by MT are far longer than normal (like 6 years or 10 in some cases) and really lock a lot of things in.

    • Not to mention the the vast amounts showered on Telstra to buy copper the Libs are now suggesting is worthless.

      • The deal that the Libs took 15 months to arrive at with Telstra still gave them the $11.2 billion for their copper network and their part of the HFC network….(Optus was given a billion for their part of the HFC).
        This $11.2 bn under the Labor deal bought the networks which were to be decommissioned and replaced with FttP.

        The new LNP deal with Telstra, announced 10 days before Christmas in 2014, kept those networks in the MTM plan and still paid Telstra the same amount…..and gave new Telstra shareholder ‘protections’….passing the massive costs of upgrading, repairing, maintaining and running these 20th century networks to the taxpayer via publicly owned NBN Co.

        And who knows how much MT has signed away in contracts to have the HFC upgraded?

        The copper network was 80% useless at the time of the 2013 election.

  7. Murdoch has them by the balls. I’m still in limbo where to move to , to avoid telephone lines ! Talk about a massive downgrade and destruction of productivity and the economy.

  8. Labor accepting MTM? They never did and will never praise the Liberals for it. Talking out of his ass as usual. It seems that all Fifield does is criticise Labor for their own shortcomings to make it look like his band of frauds is doing a top job. Grow up.

    Labor has to accept it because they don’t have a choice, not because they think HFC and FTTN is a good idea. This is exactly what the Liberals wanted to happen in case they lose the next election. Labor never supported FTTN or HFC. If it were economical to do so, they would disconnect as much copper as they could. Liberal scums made a complete mess that would be hard for Labor to undo. We all know now that 93% fibre isn’t possible and that we would have to have the MTM that has already been rolled out. At least Labor is being upfront about having to include that in their rollout BEFORE the election. Unlike Liberals who never mentioned anything about reducing fibre rollout before election but then cut down on as much fibre as they could AFTER they won, screwing over even their own voters. Well screw you Fifield. I hope you lose you job.

    • acquired HFC, spent tens of billions,bought up fresh copper, bought the nodes.

      if there is or was a way to reverse this mess I’d be mighty impressed with Labor, will see what they can salvage, if its FTTdp in a lot of places with the nodes being distributed in areas where they can top out at excellent speeds for VDSL I’d be happy.
      its such poor form that we are stuck with the nodes because (someone with a big brain please chime in!) I’m not aware of a way to utilise them that provides a clear upgrade path to FTTP when some costs have been recovered in revenue

  9. ..it’s all over: those who died for this country have been forgotten for a paper profit!

    HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME AUSTRALIA!

  10. “I expect both the Coalition and Labor to shift to similar FTTdp models during the formal election campaign period.”

    Hopefully the Lib’s obfuscation and broken promises over this nation building project will never be forgotten.

    • anything that minimises installation of nodes and network architectures that hinder FTTP upgrades down the track and fibre on demand in the short term.

  11. A question for you Renai.

    When you mention labor continuing with FTTB in MDU’s, what about the reports and suggestions that NBN is actually, or planning to connect up most/many Brownfield MDU’s with FTTN instead of FTTB. Are you going to investigate that or just ignore it?

    • When you mention labor continuing with FTTB in MDU’s, what about the reports and suggestions that NBN is actually, or planning to connect up most/many Brownfield MDU’s with FTTN instead of FTTB.

      Where did you see that?

      It would make no sense whatsoever to wire an MDU as FttN to start with (why would you run copper from the node out in the street to each and every unit when you can stick a node in the basement and hook it to the existing lines?).

      • http://whrl.pl/ReBfz0
        “Analysis of the leaked Integrated Deployment Plan (IDP) spreadsheet suggests the FttB rollout will total 38.5K premises. It is a rounding error.”

        “FttB is a red herring, an even smaller one than FttDP (~300K). Have a look at the figures from the Implementation study (page 79)”

  12. However, it is possible that Labor and the Coalition will end up supporting very similar NBN policies in this year’s Federal Election

    One would hope so Renai, it’s really the only way the NBN will actually not be a tragic comedy in three parts, it’s too important for both parties not to reach a bipartisan level on it.

  13. I love that word “scatching”. (“Fifield was scatching of Shorten’s comments.”) This is the evolution of our language at its best!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. Labor could say they will replace outstanding FTTN builds and shutting down the HFC and overbuilding it with FTTP, but they are not.

    It goes to show the 93% FTTP to residences by 2021 and overbuilding and paying Telstra and Optus to shutdown their copper and HFC networks was a disastrous mistake and one not to be repeated.

    The rational and most cost effective NBN MtM model has won the day, eventually.

    • Actually the only disastrous mistake was Kruddard/Abbot. Unfortunately they will be repeated.

      MtM cost effective? History will tell, after all the days.

    • what to do with the FTTN equipment now eh ?

      you lost me when you said this tells us anything about FTTP to 93% before the coalitions new telstra deals. you think Labor won’t pay the money all over again because it was a bad idea the first time ? so its not that the public didn’t stomach it or understand the utility ? The public has tolerance for only so many tens of billions being sunk into the project and Turnbull just clocked up a couple and nabbed a few warehouses full of expensive equipment in the process, he busted it.

    • More proof that you can find literally anything to bitch and moan about the ALP.

      Libtroll status confirmed.

      • But bitching and moaning about the Coalition NBN MtM 24/7 for nearly three years is ok and never deserving the status of Labor troll?

        A fine example of total hypocrisy that you will ever see.

        • I bitch and moan about the MTM, because it is a farce and a waste of money that is not future-proof.

          The only portion that is less of a waste, is the HFC. It doesn’t make it not a waste, when even MT and NBN Co all admit that fibre is the end-game.

          Besides, I vote based on policies and how those policies affect the country as a whole, I didn’t vote ALP in the last election, but I sure as hell put the LNP at the bottom of my ballot paper because I could see the lies for what they were.

          Have you ever not voted for the LNP?

        • But bitching and moaning about the Coalition NBN MtM 24/7 for nearly three years is ok and never deserving the status of Labor troll?

          Yeah, well, lets face it, these guys are turning out to be an even bigger disaster than the previous Labor circus, at least Labor actually went through with their policies (instead of floating them and dumping them 48 hours later) and negotiated to get the legislation through.

          What have these guys done? Screwed up the NBN, doubled the deficit and couldn’t be fucked actually reigning in the corruption at the banks and big end of town.

        • @ alain

          And yours?

          The “finest example of total hypocrisy” that you will ever see, surpassing even your own, lofty, hypocritical Everest.

          “Before roads there were no roads’

          You’re welcome.

    • The LNP promised a 21st century network, in their 2013 campaign….and look at the mess we have under their government.

      The disastrous mistake was that so many voters believed them….Abbott and Turnbull relied on the majority of voters having no idea that patching optical fibre into decrepit copper lines was never going to create a reliable and fast network.

      They relied on the majority not knowing that optical fibre being glass is cheaper than copper.

      They relied on voters not understanding that the full fibre NBN was not an expense we couldn’t afford, but a necessary investment in 21st century infrastructure.

      I can’t even have a phone conversation on my land line because the crackling on the line is so bad….it’s no surprise that max speed I can get on ADSL is 4/1, with persistent drop outs. And that’s after 5 different Telstra technicians have been here over a period of 18 months to supposedly fix it.

      That’s how bad the copper network is that’s the basis of the LNP FttN plan. But never mind the public is now going to pay for any replacement of copper lines….that’s if you can get Telstra to do it.

      The LNP plan was technologically incapable of providing fast reliable internet before it was started….let alone how insufficient it will be by the time it is finished…..4 years later than promised at 2020 and at close to double the cost at $56 billion.

      Telstra has been paid the same $11.2 billion….but under the LNP deal they get to keep their monopoly.

      And…as part of the Lib deal with Telstra, the taxpayer has to now also pay the bill for upgrading, maintaining and running those old networks. Just the maintenance on the copper network alone is $1 billion a year!

      The LNP plan was, is and always will be an economic disaster which any incoming government would have to pay tens of billions to put right….and they would be hamstrung by having to negotiate yet another deal with Telstra.

      Turnbull has already signed contracts with a US company to upgrade the HFC network….and contracts for node boxes etc….all of this is why Labor cannot now simply shut down the disastrous MTM mess without years more delays.

      A move to Fttdp might be the best outcome now.

  15. Makes sense, its not like they have a real choice.

    My guess is they will keep HFC (assuming we get a solution in place and operational at some point), they’ll move to FTTP in Greenfields, then migrate any remaining FTTN to FTTdp.

    Long term they will put in a plan to move FTTN to FTTdp as well. But that may well be last.

    I would like to hope that they will look at the fixed wireless and Satellite footprints with an eye to reducing them.

    It makes me wonder what the Coalition would have done had FTTdp been an option 8 years ago, and Labor had of planned for it instead of FTTP.

    • “Long term they will put in a plan to move FTTN to FTTdp as well. But that may well be last.”

      Long term I’d hope those relegated to FTTN would get an upgrade to FTTP, not FTTdp as there would still be the eventual (even as good as FTTdp is) required upgrade to Fibre anyway.

      • Those on FTTN may not agree with your assertion that they have been ‘relegated’.

        The FTTP supporter mindset is underpinned by the decision they arrogantly make on the behalf of all NBN users that don’t have FTTP, that is we know what is best for you.

        • Sure, right now they might not be. But in 5 years when their 50Mbit FTTN no longer suits their needs and they are stuck with that speed?

          Not everyone on FTTN is within the range for G.Fast to do anything for them, nor are they within the range that VDSL is going to provide 100Mbit, thus anyone outside of the roughly 500m length of copper, is RELEGATED to a substandard service in the future.

          But you know, I did say “Long term”, but reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, we know this. Go back under your bridge LibTroll.

          • Long term can mean anything, in the meantime though you need to get the majority of residents off 12/1 and 25/5 plans, it’s a long long haul to get that 78% to switch to 100/40.

            It’s hurts a FTTP fans thought processes to try and comprehend customers are happy with 12/1 and 25/5.

          • I have made my stance on speed tiers pretty fucking clear in the past, I don’t agree with them.

            Speed tiers and the CVC are a relic of an ADSL mindset and were a ridiculous idea from the start. If you must have speed tiers, they shouldn’t be asymmetrical rubbish like they are, they should at the worst be 25/25, 50/50 and 100/100.

            However, I would prefer the network be 100/100 with usage being the determining factor. You pay for your data used, not for the speed at which you can use your data. Having two limiting factors on the network hinders innovation.

            Labor really screwed the pooch in that regard, I will happily admit that, they should have focused their efforts on spruiking uploads, as uploads is what truly drives innovation with the internet, not downloads.

            If they had been offering something like 50/50 or 100/100 symmetrical speeds, the MTM would never have been an option (not in its current form anyway) as FTTN cannot compete with those upload speeds.

          • Don’t worry too much R0, it’s just because Reality has the FTTN supporter mindset that is underpinned by the decision he arrogantly makes on the behalf of all NBN users that don’t don’t deserve FTTP, that is he knows what is best for them.

          • I don’t have to assume anything on their behalf, FTTN users themselves have stated overwhelming ‘what is best for them’.

            NBN FttN users increasingly opting for slower speeds

            According to NBN, in January this year, FttN customers were opting for 12/1Mbps plans 15.5 percent of the time; 25/5Mbps plans made up the vast bulk of users at 71 percent;

            http://www.zdnet.com/article/nbn-fttn-users-increasingly-opting-for-slower-speeds/

            The latest news is not good for 100/40 users in FTTP either, falling from 16% to 15.7% in just three months!

            oh dear, poor old ‘FTTP rebadged FTTdp’ fan boys, yet another blink-blink-blink moment.

          • “NBN FttN users increasingly opting for slower speeds”

            And how many of those people can only attain speeds barely above 25/5? Oh… the information doesn’t say that? Right.

            You ARE making assumptions. Just because people are on 25/5 on FTTN, does not mean their line is capable of 100/40.

            Falling 100Mbit connection numbers also helps to support my position that people aren’t going to order 100Mbit connections if they don’t even get close to the speed they are ordering.

            Why would I pay for a 100Mbit connection when my line is only capable of 60Mbit? Why would I pay for a 50Mbit connection when my line is only capable of 35?

            Notice how the 25Mbit customers are increasing and the 12Mbit ones are decreasing? What was the original line parrotted by the Libtrolls? 50% on 12Mbit? Funny how 12Mbit customers on FTTN are only at 15%….. Oops.

          • Line speeds are always quoted as ‘up to’ even on FTTP, just because you are on a FTTP 100/40 plan doesn’t mean that’s what you get every day of the week.

            The point you are desperately avoiding is NBN FTTN or FTTP residents purchase a speed tier plan up front based one what they think they will need based on price and quota.

            Obviously the vast majority of residents FTTN or FTTP decide up front 12/1 and 25/5 is fine, and sign up for those plans.

            Based on current data and not conjecture the MtM model is the correct choice

          • “Obviously the vast majority of residents FTTN or FTTP decide up front 12/1 and 25/5 is fine, and sign up for those plans.”

            Prove it.

            Nothing in that article hints that customers lowball their options, nothing at all hints HOW customers choose their plans in anyway at all.

            Kindly take your assumptions and shove it.

          • Soooo….under FttP the uptake of 100/40 was 44%, and under FttN most people can only get 25/5.

            It’s not rocket science Reality…

          • The comments being made here by alain, simply demonstrates him to a T.

            As FTTN (FRAUDBAND/NODAFAIL™) progresses, albeit at snails pace and 100/40 plans are not available, of course people cannot pick such plans from a shitty network which can’t physically reproduce such speeds.

            Der.

            Then similarly, but with a twist, to suggest people are intentionally choosing the lesser plans on FTTN (FRAUDBAND/NODAFAIL™) proves FTTN (FRAUDBAND/NODAFAIL™) was right, when they don’t have the option for any better is the same disingenuous/dishonest fucking scenario.

            Der x 2

            But of course having seen him say things like –

            Then: “HFC FAILED”
            Now: “Lucrative HFC”

            We don’t ever expect any less than complete disingenuousness, with a large dash of dishonesty, stirred/spun (not shaken :) of course.

            You’re welcome (alain).

          • 15.7% becomes 44%, ??

            You really do have the memory retention of a peanut, look through the old Delimiter articles you love so much.

        • And the Copper supporter mindset is that if it is FTTP it is evil, the fruits of the devil.

          Seriously stop being a shill.

          You have lost. FTTN has been proven Technically inferior, Financially inferior, and is fast being proven to be “time to rollout” inferior.

          By all appearances, the Coalition and NBN themselves will likely switch to FTTdp before the election or as an election promise.

          FTTN is almost dead, once it dies, WE will be tallying the cost of the abortive efforts to move into it. I am glad you are happy to piss your money up against the wall, but I personally want the best possible outcome for Australia.

          • FTTN is going full steam ahead averaging 8,000 residences a week, there is no announcement the FTTN is on hold partial or otherwise while the results of FTTdp trials are analysed.

            Even if the FTTdp results are favourable the next stage build is not scheduled until 2017, well after the election.

            Also Labor have not announced anything substantial on FTTdp or even stopping FTTN.

            By all means create a delusion if it makes life easier.

          • “Also Labor have not announced anything substantial on FTTdp or even stopping FTTN.”

            I’m sure they will announce something when the Election is actually announced. As it is, Turnbull is just faffing about threatening a DD.

          • Yeah you know what Labor will say, we will replace FTTN with FTTdp where feasible to do so after our own NBN review process 2016-2017 has finished.

          • “Yeah you know what Labor will say, we will replace FTTN with FTTdp where feasible to do so after our own NBN review process 2016-2017 has finished.”

            I don’t care what Labor will or might or could say, Labor aren’t in power, the Liberals are. You talk a lot about how people who are “Pro-FTTP” are stuck in the past, you seem to stuck in some kind of weird state of fear of the future, fear of change, fear that your beliefs might be someday proven wrong.

            Oh….. that is the definition of a conservative. I forgot.

            Kindly take your contradictory statements, your hypocrisy and your bullshit elsewhere.

          • @ alain,

            “By all means create a delusion if it makes life easier.”

            Sorry can’t do that, you obviously have the patent and trademarks wrapped up.

            Plus, well simply, because unlike you we are here to rationally (attempt to sans such interventions from childish fools) discuss the topic of comms in a friendly manner, not perform fellatio upon far right politicians one adores, like some (not mentioning any names).

            You’re welcome.

        • Many on the FttN are finding that at peak times (4pm to midnight) they are getting speeds worse than before they were connected to the NBN.

          As bad as 3Mbps download and less than 1 up.

          Because of the inherent bandwidth limitations of the FttN technology….data bottleneck.

          I call that being relegated to FttN, too.

          Optical fibre has virtually unlimited capacity for data transmission…run that into a piece of copper wire, even a brand new piece of copper wire, and there you have a problem. Run it to a piece of decrepit copper wire (80% of the network) and expect to send data 100’s of metres down that wire, and have everyone in the neighborhood on the same system and you get 3Mbps at peak times.

          Who’s bright idea was that again? Oh that’s right the ‘innovation’ PM.

  16. “Bill Shorten’s credibility on Australia’s largest infrastructure project is in tatters, proving that Labor can’t be trusted to manage the transition of Australia’s economy.”

    Yet another example of “the adults are now in charge” eh Mitch? I think not.

    • Tinny, the adults are in charge, it’s just that they are all spoiled rich brats with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and malformed public duty glands!

    • tinman_au,

      Yet another example of “the adults are now in charge” eh Mitch? I think not.

      What it is a example of is Labor playing the pragmatist, realising FTTP is off the agenda and the only way to get the NBN completed in a realistic time frame is to adopt the Coalition MtM model but make a few minor changes, beat up the minor changes and start the spin machine that it is a ‘original’ Labor model.

      Labor wishes it would all go away, and if they win the election it’s a ‘shit what do we do now’, we head kicked the Coalition MtM for three years now we need a solution, one year SR coming up!

      • Speaking of spin machine, how many days have you been on the spin cycle in the washing machine? Been having to take some catch up classes to learn what the current LNP line is regarding $1.6Bn more to Telstra for HFC upgrades?

        • I was fully aware that the HFC required upgrading before being made available to ISP’s to resell as a NBN product, were you not aware, or are you pretending this Telstra HFC contract is a complete shock?

          • There we go, this is the response I was expecting. The “all is going to plan” response. I’m going to screen capture this for the next time we hear a blowout and you’ll inevitably spew the same garbage about revisions and it being the plan all along.

            $11Bn and not a cent more I believe was the line previously…. $1.6Bn isn’t a cent more I guess…

          • It was in the previous election rhetoric, that Turnbull would get Telstra to play ball for the $11Bn they were already being paid to decommission the copper and HFC networks, and pay them anything else to instead take the CAN off their hands.

            Yet, now we see a deal for another $1.6Bn for them to build the HFC portion of the NBN. “Not a cent more” I guess means, “We won’t give them one more cent, but we might give them 160Bn cents”

            Must be a great day to be a Telstra shareholder. You must be happy.

          • What ‘$11b line’ are you referring to?

            You have the retention span of a peanut…

          • Yet, now we see a deal for another $1.6Bn for them to build the HFC portion of the NBN. “Not a cent more” I guess means, “We won’t give them one more cent, but we might give them 160Bn cents”

            And lets not forget the “factor of ten” error of $641b worth of new copper ;o)

          • R0ninX3ph,

            Yet, now we see a deal for another $1.6Bn for them to build the HFC portion of the NBN.

            That’s not for building the HFC portion of the NBN, that has already been built, it is for upgrading the network and ongoing maintenance so it is suitable as a NBN resale product.

            We knew this was going to happen last year.

            Telstra and NBN are in the final throes of negotiations for a contract that will see the telco take charge of design and construction management for the majority of the National Broadband Network hybrid fibre coaxial (HFC) rollout.

            http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/591131/telstra-take-charge-nbn-hfc-rollout/

            I know you and other Coalition MtM haters need to feign shock and horror at every single NBN Co announcement but it is what they said would happen.

            “Not a cent more” I guess means,

            Where does this quote come from?

          • Reality, do you even read articles before commenting? Obviously not, as evidenced by the multitude of times you have shown no reading comprehension ability.

            https://delimiter.com.au/2016/04/11/nbn-pays-telstra-1-6bn-extend-hfc-cable-network/

            First paragraph:

            “The NBN company this morning announced it would pay Telstra about $1.6 billion over the next four years to upgrade and extend its HFC cable network as part of the National Broadband Network.”

            To upgrade and EXTEND.

            Thus, taking it to where it currently ISN’T. Thus, constructing. Building. Putting it where it isn’t.

            “Where does this quote come from?”

            It is called paraphrasing you cretin. Malcolm Turnbull famously made statements that he would be able to acquire the CAN from Telstra without needing to pay them more than the $11Bn that Labor was paying to decommission the CAN and transfer users to the NBN.

            THUS, if he could do it without needing to pay more than the original $11Bn deal, it is “not a cent more” than that. As he stated he would acquire the assets being decommissioned for the original price of the original deal.

          • The issue, Reality, is that we paid $11Bn to acquire the CAN (and the HFC even though that wasn’t in the 25Mbit to all by 2016 plan presented before the election) and now we are paying the original owner of the HFC to upgrade what should have been upgraded before we took ownership of it.

            The fact the deal went through sight unseen of the network, with members of the NBN Board with significant interests in Telstra, and now Telstra is being paid another $1.6Bn to upgrade said network we bought sight unseen, is dodgy as all frack.

            The fact you don’t see that as dodgy, means you’re either a shill, or a holder of plenty of Telstra shares, happy that they managed to flog off what you called a failed network previously and now secured even more money to fix something they no longer have to pay maintenance on.

            If you think this $1.6Bn is going to be the last final payment to Telstra for the HFC maintenance, then I’ve got a lovely bridge to sell you in Sydney.

          • The HFC and coopper networks require upgrades and maintenance to varying degrees to make them suitable as a NBN product, that’s old news.

            The NBN Co has to pay someone like Telstra and other contractors named in the CW link I made above to upgrade and maintain the infrastructures.

            Jeez that’s a shock they wouldn’t do it for nothing!

          • “The HFC and coopper networks require upgrades and maintenance to varying degrees to make them suitable as a NBN product, that’s old news.”

            Once again, missing the fucking point.

            Both were purchased sight unseen, with no comments about how much it would cost to upgrade and maintain those networks, in deals orchestrated by board members with significant interests in Telstra. When people made such a big deal about Quigley getting rid of his interests, Ziggy and other NBN board members have kept their Telstra shares.

            The fact you don’t see this as an issue, is 1) hypocritical and 2) just more evidence of your die-hard Liberal leanings.

            So, I am done with your bullshit Reality, you are a hypocritical douchenozzle who continually contradicts your own statements over and over again, never once admitting when you’ve made a mistake. Never acknowledging when others admit their errors, and then bring up said errors on completely unrelated comments on completely unrelated articles.

            So kindly… fuck off.

          • It’ll be interesting to see what the “up to” figure ends up at in CP17 once they factor in all the “upgrades and maintenance to varying degrees to make them suitable as a NBN product” :o)

            I guess they’ll just fudge it like the SR…

          • “It’ll be interesting to see what the “up to” figure ends up at in CP17 once they factor in all the “upgrades and maintenance to varying degrees to make them suitable as a NBN product” :o)

            I guess they’ll just fudge it like the SR…”

            It wouldn’t matter to him even if the price went up to $80Bn, as whatever increase because of the MTM would be added to the current price they claim Labors rollout would cost, and then claim the MTM is still $xxBn less than Labors “Rolls Royce”

          • I haven’t read ahead and I’m sure this has been mentioned, but

            “it is for upgrading the network and ongoing maintenance ”
            “”negotiations for a contract that will see the telco take charge of design and construction management””
            Made me laugh harder than usual.

            When do you plan to stop embarrassing yourself, Alain?

          • Prior to the 2013 election, no one knew the HFC network was going to be upgraded.

            Voters were told by Turnbull that the LNP would “finish what Labor started, cheaper and faster”. Most people took that to mean finishing the same FttP network that Labor started.

            The Libs election promise was, after all, for a 21st century NBN. And only full fibre can provide a 21st century network.

            Patching fibre into copper and HFC can only ever be a 20th century compromise and as such a ridiculous waste of time and money, and a broken promise to voters.

            Can you show any evidence that voters were told that we would be paying to upgrade the HFC network?

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