Budget 2016: Shorten promises Australia a “first-rate Fibre NBN”

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news Opposition Leader Bill Shorten this evening promised Labor would deliver Australians a “first-rate Fibre National Broadband Network” if his party wins the upcoming Federal Election, but stopped short of confirming that that network would consist of a full Fibre to the Premises rollout.

The previous Labor Government created the National Broadband Network with a near-universal Fibre to the Premises model, representing the best possible broadband technology to meet Australia’s long-term needs.

However, since the 2013 Federal Election, the Abbott and Turnbull administrations have substantially modified the NBN project, replacing Labor’s model with technically inferior Fibre to the Node and HFC cable models which rely on the legacy copper and HFC cable networks owned by Telstra and Optus.

Labor has not yet confirmed what model it will take for the NBN to this year’s Federal Election. Instead, it has only given several tantalising hints of its future policy.

This evening, at his Budget Reply speech in Parliament House in Canberra, Opposition Leader Bill Shorten accused Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull of making “broadband slower” in Australia.

He went on to add that the most important piece of infrastructure for any 21st century economy was a “first-rate Fibre NBN”.

Shorten also told Parliament that it was important that the Government focus on teaching children coding skills, computer skills and technology and science skills, stating that these were the skills Australia needed for the future.

The comments echo similar comments Shorten and Shadow Communications Minister Jason Clare have made in the past, where the pair have referred to Labor’s policy supporting more Fibre than the Coalition’s NBN policy, but without committing to a full Fibre to the Premises rollout.

In early April, Shorten appeared to have confirmed Labor will retain elements of the Coalition’s controversial Multi-Technology Mix policy if it won power in the upcoming Federal Election, in what the Labor leader described as a “hybrid” version of the NBN.

There is substantial speculation that both major sides of politics will commit to a Fibre to the Distribution Point model for the NBN, which features a similar cost profile as the Coalition’s preferred Fibre to the Node model but substantially higher speeds, as well as retaining the HFC cable, Fixed Wireless and Satellite aspects of the existing MTM model.

opinion/analysis
Fighting words from Shorten, but I wouldn’t read too much into them. I’ll be waiting to see the fine print on Labor’s NBN policy before counting this as a victory.

I am especially concerned about Labor’s ongoing silence with respect to the HFC cable aspect of the Multi-Technology Mix. The HFC is a significant problem for the NBN network’s future upgradability and structure. I’d like to see Labor commit to letting the HFC go from the MTM mix, replacing it with FTTdp to ensure a uniform national build.

This shouldn’t be too much of a stretch — the NBN company has barely rolled out any HFC upgrades or extensions at this point.

Image credit: Parliamentary Broadcasting

142 COMMENTS

  1. MTM is a disgraceful, disastrous, ideological, retrograde mess, as we always said it would be… but it’s even worse than I personally thought it could ever be (wow I never actually believed it “was really” FRAUDBAND, but those now stupid enough to roll it out, hit the nail on the head with that description)…

    So if Bill & Co can’t do better than this completely hopeless, MTM unmitigated, obsolete disaster, well, I’m afraid we as Australian’s in 2016 deserve to wallow in last millennium’s MTM mediocrity and can only look back at how pioneering that fucking “back of a napkin” plan, actually was.

    The ball is in your court Bill… hope yours are bigger than Tony’s and Mal’s.

    • So if Bill & Co can’t do better than this completely hopeless, MTM unmitigated, obsolete disaster, well, I’m afraid we as Australian’s in 2016 deserve to wallow in last millennium’s MTM mediocrity and can only look back at how pioneering that fucking “back of a napkin” plan, actually was.

      Indeed Rizz, though I don’t think there is much Labor can do regardless of any good intentions to to return to FttP. Coalition clowns & GimpCo have smeared way too much shit all over the walls, the stink will be with us for years to come. Remember we only had one chance to get this right and Australia blew it big time. We can thank the copper fanboy knuckle draggers for it and when they inevitably start complaining about the clusterfuck we have to show for it we can say “told you so” yet again.

      • “Remember we only had one chance to get this right and Abbott blew it big time.”

        FTFY

        • GG,

          “Remember we only had one chance to get this right and Abbott blew it big time.”

          It was blown long before the Coalition won the 2013 election easily with a alternative NBN MtM policy, Labor stuffed up the FTTP rollout not the Coalition.

          • @ Reality

            Yeah how dare they get behind in schedule when they had to build everything up from scratch across australia so delays and cost figures raised above target est. Nbn would of been making a nice return right now if the lib retards and trolls like yourself pissed off.

          • To right Reality just like the deficits.
            In Labor’s last full year, the deficit was down to $18.8 billion, having fallen three years in a row. It was projected to fall further.
            The Coalition has delivered three budgets, not counting election year 2013-14. The average deficit – assuming the 2016-17 projection is met – is $38.30 billion. If we include the election year, which the Coalition managed for all but the first two months, the average deficit over four years is actually $40.85 billion.

          • Higher ARPU than estimated on the Original Plan components.

            MTM has blown out in cost $56billion,
            Is an inferior network,
            Will have a higher OPEX
            and will not be able to pay for itself.

            Can you say the same about the original plan?

          • @Mike, but remember, there was a debt and deficit crisis!

            Which miraculously disappeared when the Coalition got into power, and they have increased the deficit.

            But now there is no crisis.

            LibTrolls lap it up, post here only on NBN related articles, never comment on non NBN articles, and then expect us to take their opinions seriously.

            Hey Reality, if you wanted to be taken seriously, you’d actually pop into other articles and comment to show us you’re not just here to troll for the LNP.

          • “Labor stuffed up the FTTP rollout not the Coalition.”
            Yes that $46b service competitive worldwide brought to us in 2022 would have been a real flop compared to the $71.6b service that needs replacing with the $46b service no later than 2026.

      • Even if they use every bit of equipment and copper wire purchased by NBNCo and then make a switch back the productivity gains will still be enormous. Dumping both the Nodes (how many do we own , sitting in warehouses?) And HFC would be political suicide but deployment method for either could be altered to reach a new threshold of minimum speed with a corresponding quality of backhaul so the speeds hold up. FTTdp using that copper would have made sense but we have the damn cabinets to offload on some poor bastard!

  2. Renai depends on the cost of letting the HFC go. As since they have started trials NBN it required to take the HFC as a whole and maintain it for Foxtel whether it’s used or not ATM

  3. There is a lot of shittalking about HFC as a technology, but I have yet to see any real reasoned argument as to why.

    It is currently severely under-utilised, it has tremendous bandwidth capacity, and it has a natural evolution to FTTH as its end-point.

    Lets hear it.

    • Seriously underutilized? It’s already seriously oversubscribed on its now limited uptake, it will be far worse if everyone is forced over to it. I don’t know anyone who is still on HFC for broadband, all the ones who were on it in the past moved to ADSL2+ to avoid the massive evening slowdowns that made HFC unusable once the kids got home from school. Maybe a few luck out in areas where the network has lighter use, but in Melbourne suburbs that doesn’t seem to be the case.

      Natural evolution to FTTP? Like FTTN evolves to FTTdp. Utter BS, each is a completely new roll out. Stop smoking crack, where do you come up with this bullshit?

      • I’m on (Telstra) HFC and it works great.

        Could you point me to a document that shows HFC is over subscribed or are you referring to evidence anecdotally based off angry people on Whirlpool?

      • Approximately 12% of the available spectrum is being used for data carriage.
        There is no node segmentation (can segment the nodes 4 ways)
        There is no node+0 architecture (nodes are currently running 3 to 5 active segments past each one)

        Taking these 3 points alone out to the natural HFC upgrade path, will yield minimum 100 times the current bandwidth. Thats not even accounting for a swap to DOCSIS3.1, and that is not yet at FTTH.

        Yes, HFC has a well defined upgrade path to FTTH, its called RFoG, and/or fibre-deep.

        I pull this bullshit out of my telecom engineering background – am familiar with the hfc network design in this country.

        There is a serious amount of under-utilisation going on.

        • Where you having a bit of an identity crisis there Charlie?

          Ps clearly NBN aren’t doing much to improve this poor design or their HFC test results wouldn’t be so woeful!

          • …just a bit, forgot I was logged in for a second there :P

            NBN are hamstrung by the spectrum sharing arrangement at the moment. When they take full ownership and Telstra shut down their carriers, they can go crazy with it.

          • Devoid the trial which shows the HFC delivers 97Mbps between 12am-6am when no one is using it.

            But between 6pm-12am deliver a super fast 10Mbps. That’s just with 20 users.

          • Cheers Charlie, I did wonder if that might be the case.

            I suspect if the LNP win the election my street will be FTTN’d despite being surrounded by HFC.

            We are served by underground PSTN and power but the rest of the area is aerial HFC and power.

            Personally I’d rather HFC after having a good run with Telstra HFC while renting. Dam I miss my old 110/2.5 mbps service! I pay the same now but for 12/1 mbps ADSL. Rip off!

          • I never really got the HFC hate in this country, the HFC “issues” in certain areas comes more from the poor design choices of the network’s owners than the technology.

            HFC itself is more akin to FttDP than FttN (ballpark speaking), instead of using shitty copper from the street, they use coax and while I fully admit thats not as good as fibre to the wall, it’s still way better than shitty copper runs a kilometer long…

          • @ alain,

            I think he’s referring to the reality/alain trials…your trials.

            You know where you claimed categorically that “HFC were FAILED networks” some 5 years ago and you also said we don’t need such speeds?

            Remember now?

            I’m sure you do as i remind you regularly enough and you aren’t man enough to address it and avoid your own words like the plague…

            How perpetually delicious, seeing you squirm from your own past comments.

            So as you see, it makes a mockery and shows your complete hypocrisy, in relation to anything you say in support of HFC now…

            You’re welcome

          • Oh a new low even for you alain… flat out lies.

            We both know exactly what you said…

            Like a hint?

            You’re welcome.

    • You won’t get such a discussion here, oh look they’re straight into the abuse/bile.

      I look forward to the revised FTTdp rollout timetable. NBNCo, now in its 8th year, is approaching 2m servicible premises (less than 20%). The international MTM upgrades (not allowed to be discussed here) are finishing up, moving onto the next phase.

      Those of us in ilving in high income areas haven’t seen a change to our internet since Conroy promised his private sector destroying monopoly (explicitly threatening competitors). All waiting on the taxpayer funded, inefficient GBE to one day get around and perform the simplest of upgrades for the most cost.

      FTTdp offers the benefit of avoiding the last mile cost (where have we heard this before). However it cannot be rolled out at anywhere near the scale of HFC or FTTN/B. This is what Morrow declared when talking changes required to SoE.

      ACCC actuals (not covered here) destroys the required bandwidth claims of the fanboys. Squealing 1gbps last mile required even though 1mbps / customer of internet bandwidth provisioned by RSPs.

      Expect the same level of debate for HFC, a technology delivering high-speed internet in many markets (analysis banned as harmful to the discussion here).

      Today we expect NBNCo to release Q3 update. Will it be reported? If so look forward to analysis in comments;-)

      • What’s this “international MTM upgrades” of which you’re not allowed to speak? Isn’t NBN national-only. International links are entirely separate to NBN discussion aren’t they?

      • Well Richard, you are free to discuss any of those points. Go ahead, start discussion. The ACCC report had been discussed multiple times before you posted the reference to the draft, but then the contents had been published and discussed for a good week before the spread sheet was publish. All those other points have also been discussed over and over for years. But go ahead, kick off the discussion. Try to make some points rather than strident assertions that vary too greatly from reality so that your post isn’t ridiculed. After all, respect is earned, not demanded.

      • Richard like when you you failed to cost the $755 ducts cost vs Quigley cost which has it.

      • I look forward to the revised FTTdp rollout timetable. NBNCo [sic], now in its 8th year, is approaching 2m servicible [sic] premises (less than 20%). The international MTM upgrades (not allowed to be discussed here) are finishing up, moving onto the next phase.

        And yet Bill Morrow says nbn™ is ready to switch tech with no delays this time. Hmmm…who to believe…

      • “The international MTM upgrades (not allowed to be discussed here)”

        They have been discussed and were found not to be comparable to Australia.

        “are finishing up, moving onto the next phase.”

        This point does not support an MTM, does it? Starting an MTM now, as we are doing, means that we will be behind. The bare minimum, if starting now, is FTTdp to catch up.

        BTW, I think the proposed bolstering of HFC will turn out to be a fairly good interim solution. Its potential is far beyond the financial, economic, political and technical abomination that is FTTN. You may not be confident in FTTdp, but the technology is ready to go. Also, it must work, because we have no alternative.

    • Can you avail us of where to find information about its severe under-utilisation? Any links to other posts you’ve written to explain it, or source information would be appreciated.

      • What Charlie it’s referring to is that Optus currently have an average of 1100 premises per HFC segment and Telstra around 600.

        If you dropped these to say 100 per segment you’d likely be able to deliver pretty good results even with only DOCSIS 3.0.

        The problem is then one of cost, ultimately it might be cheaper to go with FTTdp and ignore the HFC altogether.

        • Other reasons

          – Only 16 carriers are in use in the forward path, the network is capable of transmitting up to approx 112 carriers. At ~50mbps/carrier…you can do the maths.
          – The network is running 3 to 5 amplifiers per-node port. You can run fibre to these amplifier locations, and replace them with nodes, effectively doubling the available bandwidth on this segment.

          and…as you mentioned, node segmentation to quadruple available bandwidth yet again.

    • The reasons why not are :
      – HFC is obsolete technology (i.e. no-one is installing it new).
      – The HFC networks need significant investment to bring them up to an acceptable standard. Last we heard nbn was still trying to decide whether the Optus cable network is worth using at all.
      – Half the premises in the HFC footprint don’t have a lead-in anyway.
      – Adding an extra technology option significantly complicates the nbn rollout.

      If you look at HFC networks around the world, it seems that the economics of upgrading them is borderline. Some operators are upgrading, others are just moving high-value customers directly to fiber connections (improving performance for the customers left on the cable in the process).

      • HFC is not obsolete by any measure, DOCSIS3.1 can deliver gigabit speeds to peoples homes.
        Noone is talking about deploying a new HFC network here, we already have one….it just needs to be upgraded.
        Cost to upgrade HFC to FTTH-like speeds is far, far, far less than overbuilding the entire thing with FTTH.
        Optus cable considered not being used, because 95% of the optus network is already covered by a superior-built Telstra HFC network
        Getting services to customers in the HFC area who dont have a lead-in, is not a big challenge – you may see more on this in the future.

        I am familiar with global HFC network operators….they are not dropping HFC networks to migrate to Fibre. The only FTTH buildouts are where the service area’s do not already have either an HFC deployment, or a fibre deployment (greenfields, and/or brownfields with just twisted pair).

        HFC networks are here to stay for quite a while yet, as operators understand that there is a huge amount of bandwidth to be siphoned from them, for very little up-front capex.

        • I think people haven’t really done a lot of their own research into it Charlim, if they had they’d realise HFC still has some legs yet.

        • Excellent post thanks Charlie. So going on the acquisition of the networks its worth upgrading them particularly backhaul/contention. I don’t suppose you know how much FTTN equipment the Libs sunk funds into and is sitting in warehouses? labor could perhaps alter deployment method and areas so that there is a new minimum speed requirement of 70 megabits or similar

    • The problem with HFC, FTTN, USCP (USB strapped to carrier pigeon), FTdp, OGSoF (Old guy shouting over the fence) and what ever other technology the MTM has decide to try and see if it will work this week is that most of it is too little too late.

      Labor Hamstrung the NBN a bit in the beginning by sticking to the KPMG plan at all cost for political reasons. Which prevented NBN from exploring other possibilities and possible early temporary solutions when technical design was going on. LNP Hamstrung the NBN and then gave it a kick to the groin by saying you can do absolutely anything as long as it looks cheap and Labor didn’t do it under RGR. So now we end up with HFC just kinda of bolted on the side instead something designed to work well until such time and the build gets back to infilling those areas.

    • Mainly from long time foxtel recipients (in SA so might be part of the issue). It starts out Golden but over time peak gets slower for them (still better than their equiv 3-5mb on ADSL) consistently around 10-15ish speeds. Just assuming a higher uptake in the area hence the congestion.

      I know the ‘tech’ can do it my folks were on cable for a while in the USA (now on fibre) I just doubt the Aussie network is anywhere as well built/maintained. Heck ‘old delimiter’ couldn’t get Optus to even admit it had an HFC network back in the day!

      • I just doubt the Aussie network is anywhere as well built/maintained.

        The Aussie network both Telstra and Optus has been actively sold initially for pay TV then BB cable and upgraded by both carriers for DOCSIS 3.0, the BB plans are still being sold today, it is rational to assume that to allow this to happen the infrastructure would have to be well maintained during this time.

        It wasn’t mothballed waiting for the NBN to take it over.

    • Same here,I’m as much an FTTP advocate as anyone here but don’t want a plan halted in infancy again because the gov commits political suicide by throwing out FTTN and HFC equipment the libs spent billions on acquiring. Is there a reason that HFC can’t be upgraded to 3.1 with correspondingly good backhaul provision so users can get reliable 300 megabit connections ? In a worst case scenario where that’s how the east coast capital cities are left when NBN is privatised, wouldn’t that be adequate for many years to come and wouldn’t areas serviced by cable TV be the kinds of places private operators would actually bring in gigabit fibre down the track ?

  4. Renai, ditching the HFC is really simple, tell them “do you want 5+ years of work with a re-negotiated contract, or do you want a 10 year legal battle?”

  5. There is no other option then the original FTTP plan from Labor. Anything else is just pissing even more money down the drain only to be ripped up/changed/replaced with full FTTP. Just do it right like we’ve know since a decade.

    Lock it in Eddie!

  6. I would go for FTTdp or better as well if that was an option than having HFC that we have available here. But either way its better than putting up with adsl speeds. If HFC stays and upgrade the model and get faster speeds on a Gigabit, than i guess its better than nothing. Who knoes, they may rollout FTTdp or FTTP in future when HFC reaches its limit of use. Cause no matter what the outcome, HFC is being shared among homes, so there is also a chance of congestion as well on HFC at the momment.

    • The FTTdp architecture allows both FTTdp and FTTH on the one roll out. If fibre is straight foward to pull through to the house, do it, it’ll be cheaper than FTTdp. If there is a problem with access where FTTH would be more expensive, don’t run the fibre and install VDSL2/GFast in the pit when services are taken, or put it in with the initial roll out if that is cheaper than providing as needed.

      • I’ve said before that a FTTdp rollout can just straightup use the FttP plans, so it can be up and rolling out within weeks or a couple of months. All the hard work has been done.

        The only key difference is in the nodes in the pits, which are the sized of a paperback novel for FTTdp, and that you dont have to personalise that last stretch. Which was always the weakpoint of FttP as its expensive to do that individual touch on a national scale.

        • Well FTTdp was originally designed as a solution for hard to access premises where it was too hard to run fibre for FTTH. At first it was costed as a little more expensive than FTTH, probably do to the cost of the active electronics, but it’s been years now so they will have dropped in price. There will still be a point though where just pulling the fibre that little bit further will be cheaper.

          • Definitely. There will always be times where that last mile copper is falling apart, or its a twisted pair connection or something like that so cant deliver anything near the expected speeds, so it needs to be replaced.

            At which point the ‘upgrade’ benefits of FTTdp kick in, and make it simple to go from last mile copper to last mile fibre. Its more that doing that last mile fibre for every house is expensive. There are times were economies of scale work against you, and this is one of them.

            FTTdp is that happy medium between the cost savings of FttN and the speeds of FttP though, and should clearly be the desired option post July 2, for both parties.

          • Well what do you know, FTTN/HFC is being abandoned world wide and there are now more FTTH internet users than HFC!!

            http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/technology/opinion/slipping-to-the-wrong-side-of-the-broadband-ledger/news-story/3cba944aac31d0a27ad9203075d4306a

            The global growth of all fibre access network penetration has significantly increased during 2015 as global broadband subscribers reached 751 million. All fibre access is now growing significantly faster than the Coalition Government’s preferred cable broadband (HFC) and Fibre to the Node (FTTN).

            Growth in the number of subscribers using Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) was 60.6 per cent in the final quarter of 2015, Fibre to the Node (FTTN) 14.7 per cent, cable broadband 6.9 per cent and legacy copper based broadband access technologies (ADSL, ADSL2+) declined by 18.7 per cent.

            There are now more FTTP subscribers worldwide than cable broadband subscribers and this trend highlights the rapid growth of all fibre access networks over the past decade when compared to cable broadband that has been around since the mid-1940s.

          • Growth in the number of subscribers using Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) was 60.6 per cent in the final quarter of 2015, Fibre to the Node (FTTN) 14.7 per cent, cable broadband 6.9 per cent and legacy copper based broadband access technologies (ADSL, ADSL2+) declined by 18.7 per cent.

            So, it turns out our resident FttN flimflam men know nothing at all and that Malcolm hitched his wagon to a falling (failing?) technology…colour me surprised….

          • yeah not exactly surprising is it, Mtm was always a political solution to a problem that didnt exist!

          • Derek O,

            It’s not being abandoned world wide for HFC infrastructure that is in place, if you have ready own the infrastructure like the NBN Co and obtained it for the same amount Labor were going to pay to have it shut down it makes economic sense to keep the infrastructure, upgrade it for ISP’s to resell and upgrade it later to DOCSSIS 3.1.

            The NBN is a future funding burden, to overbuild HFC which you already own passing 4M residences with brand new expensive brownfields FTTP that will take ages to complete makes no sense whatever.

            That’s why Labor NBN policy will keep HFC.

          • Devoid, what gave you the idea that I care what you think?

            Cause I don’t, back under your bridge libtroll !

          • Tinman_au,

            that Malcolm hitched his wagon to a falling (failing?) technology…colour me surprised….

            Cooking the comparisons again eh T?, comparing a FTTN rollout that started in September 2015 with FTTP that started in 2010 and saying oh look the FTTP rollout growth is higher that means the FTTN has failed.

            LOL

          • Which has nothing whatever to do with you cooking the growth figures and deliberately ignoring the FTTP vs FTTN rollout timelines in Australia.

          • (2022 vs 2020 for those playing at home)

            Yup, spending an extra $25b on technology that needs to be replaced in 10 years. What a great, financially responsible move that doesn’t warrant anyone being sent to gaol whatsoever.

  7. I think the problem with letting go of HFC will be to see the fine print of what has been agreed to.

    How do you deal with HFC when ownership has passed to NBNCo and they are required to maintain it for Foxtel to use? Maybe a deal could be made to allow Foxtel free use of FTTH/dp. A huge wad of revenue forgone there for their “not a cent more” acquisition of the HFC network.

    • “How do you deal with HFC when ownership has passed to NBNCo and they are required to maintain it for Foxtel to use?”
      Do what the private sector do and transfer this asset to a shelf company and starve it of funds, allow it to go bankrupt then flog it off to via Ferrier Hodgons.

      • Won’t work as any debt ultimately accrued if the company goes bankrupt will end up on a budget ledger in red ink.

        That is partly why Taxpayer might be looking at a big $9b red blotch on a budget some time soon if MTM goes really badly. They have a fairly large committee dedicating a lot of time and resource to try and avoid that too (ie panic stations).

      • Foxtel itself is available over IPTV now, the Foxtel company Presto is IPTV.

        For Foxtel to drop HFC altogether as a infrastructure carrier at anytime now or in the future is not a issue.

  8. I am especially concerned about Labor’s ongoing silence with respect to the HFC cable aspect of the Multi-Technology Mix. The HFC is a significant problem for the NBN network’s future upgradability and structure. I’d like to see Labor commit to letting the HFC go from the MTM mix, replacing it with FTTdp to ensure a uniform national build.

    I’m willing to give them more leeway with HFC (in the short-medium term) Renai. I think it still has some merit if they switch to DOCSIS 3.1 and fire it up on the NBN. Then, once other areas are done with FttDP, they can upgrade the HFC areas.

    It gives the NBN a quicker win on the income front, allows them to upgrade other areas that really need it sooner and it’ll be cheaper to upgrade the HFC area once they catch up….You could say it’d be quicker, sooner and cheaper :o)

    • I think the problem with it is that it significantly increases the complexity of network management – entirely new systems have had to be designed and built to strap HFC onto NBN’s management and control systems.

      I’m no HFC expert though – how long are the coaxial cable lead in per premises? What splitting /junction hardware is used to convert the fibre to coax? What are the subscription rates Vs fibre capacity (not just a function of the number of connections per fibre, but also capacity of that fibre as different fibre can carry variable traffic loads)? If it is truly hundreds of premises per fibre and the fibre is heavily oversubscribed, then it really isn’t that usable as an upgrade path anyway – new fibre will be required anyway, and where you have to run some, it really doesn’t matter (to any reasonable extent) how much more you need to run. The existing fibre is either more than sufficient for NBN requirements in which it *is* a valid upgrade path, or it is insufficient in which case it is irrelevant – the difference gained from reuse will be a mere footnote.

      • UG,

        I think the problem with it is that it significantly increases the complexity of network management – entirely new systems have had to be designed and built to strap HFC onto NBN’s management and control systems.

        There is no problem.

        The NBN Co is managing FTTP, FTTN, Fixed wireless and satellite now and the prospect of adding FTTdp to the mix.

        The addition of a HFC control system is of no consequence whatever, it is probably all completed anyway.

        The Labor NBN Co will be grateful that the MtM control systems that have been implemented, after all they will be keeping all of them.

          • Of course FTTP and only FTTP is cost neutral and has no bearing on increased costs on NBN rollouts in the future and all FTTP CPP predictions were placed in a time capsule from the last Labor NBN Co CP never to be reviewed ever again.

          • No devoid the cost of FTTP from the SR to the CP16 went down. Everything else went up hence the blowout.

            So unless you think a decrease in cost is a cost blowout. But the reality your from that prob true.

          • Of course you need to ignore the highest cost fixed line infrastructure CPP is still brownfield FTTP, in the NBN Co Third Quarter Results released last Friday it is $4,403.

            That high cost has been highlighted by Labor very recently as you well know, $29M to rollout FTTP to just 3,627 people, they didn’t calculate the CPP on that little political pork barrel exercise, you can see why.

            https://delimiter.com.au/2016/04/27/fixing-hole-labor-pledges-fibre-tasmanian-west-coast/#li-comment-732843

          • Yeah got all of that, MtM is still cheaper and faster to deploy than FTTP, 120,000 RFS on FTTN in five months.

            They are figures a FTTP rollout could only dream about, there was a lot of dreaming between 2010-2013 on Labor FTTP targets.

          • Devoid ignoring that had the FTTP rollout not been flatlined it would have passed more than 3 million premises by now!

          • That’s a easy one, from the NBN Third Quarter Results published last Friday, costing figures are therefore the most current.

            FTTP Brownfield $4,403 CPP
            FTTN $2,275 CPP

            You also ignored this deployment speed (understandably).

            120,000 RFS on FTTN in five months.

            I know you would prefer to use moth balled Labor FTTP CPP figures time capsuled and dug up from way back in 2012-2013, sorry it’s now May 2016.

            BTW that gives Labor just two months to knock up a detailed NBN policy with costing before the July 2 election , ‘oh shit oh shit what will we do’. eh?

            Labor policy so far, ‘First rate fibre’ what’s that, better quality fibre to a Node cabinet?

            lol

          • Ah good old Devoid, still hanging with the flat earther copper knuckle draggers and refusing to admit that the FTTP Brownfield CPP figure of $4,403 of total BS!

          • Oh I see, you conveniently cherry picked figures to actually “try” to answer this (what about my other question bottom of page for like the 20th time re: your previous claim HFC failed, but now you support it?)

            Straight thru to the keeper as per usual as their isn’t a rational answer… I thought so.

            Regardless …

            So who’s lying, Joe ($70B), Mal ($29.5B) or NBN pluck a figure anywhere UPTO (lol) $56B…?

            I know you prefer to ignore the umpteen guesses, blow outs by many billions in cost and time frame (by many years) to cherry pick figures to suit the crusade, whilst always ignoring everything else, especially the B in cBa, of course (shh).

            All of which makes MTM most disastrous build in Oz’s history for the so called cheaper/faster network…lol

            Keep trying your hardest son, at least until 2 July, which will be either a phew moment or complete devastation for you, I’m sure…

            You’re welcome

          • Tim J,

            43,553 on FttNrollout started September 2015.
            725,071 on FttP rollout started 2010.

            Big difference.

            In the comparative build times, yeah.

            Fixed it for ya.

          • Ahh devoid one set of rules for FTTP anther set of rules for the MTM.

            So if the rollout stared in 2010 for FTTP then the FTTN started in 2013

            See fixed it for you

          • Derek O,

            and refusing to admit that the FTTP Brownfield CPP figure of $4,403 of total BS!

            What is the correct Australian figure and why is the NBN FTTP figure which has been around the same amount since CP 16 incorrect?

            We do have another 2016 Labor derived figure for FTTP, $29M for just 3,625 people, is that figure BS also, or would you prefer a ‘no comment’ on that one?

            It makes the latest May 2016 NBN derived figure of $4,403 FTTP CPP look like a bargain basement discount!

          • JK,

            then the FTTN started in 2013

            Except it didn’t.

            I know you want to try and re write history but the facts are not kind.

            The accelerated results for nbn in deploying FTTN is becoming evident, with approximately 34,000 premises being added to the footprint in January 2016, at a rate of 8,000 per week (12-week rolling average). This rate of growth was achieved four months after the product launch in late September 2015.

            http://www.nbnco.com.au/corporate-information/media-centre/media-releases/Strong-result-continues-nbns-momentum-to-full-year-targets.html

          • Devoid, if we take that $4,403 figure as a starting point and remove the ~$700 Opex and the $450 saving from using Skinny Fibre architecture we arrive at $3,253.

            The likelihood is that it’s actually substantially less based on international experience!

          • @ alain,

            You must have missed this (cough)…

            So who’s lying, Joe ($70B), Mal ($29.5B) or NBN pluck a figure anywhere UPTO (lol) $56B…?

            GO

            You’re welcome…

          • The accelerated results for nbn in deploying FTTN is becoming evident, with approximately 34,000 premises being added to the footprint in January 2016

            But you keep saying it was 120k? Hmm…I wonder where the credibility gap is??

          • @ alain…

            “product launch in late September 2015”

            So it took them 2 years to even launch their “ready to go, fully costed plan”?

            You remember the $29.5B – but now pick a number between $45B and $70B plan…to all by 2016 – now 2020 and counting…

            As you did above, I also posted that info in bold too, to highlight such an epic and disastrous MTM fail, on all levels.

            Thanks for supplying that info about yet another (two year of SFA) MTM fail BTW.

            You’re welcome

        • Lol devoid but devoid your claiming FTTP stared in 2010 but it don’t start until 2011. So by you own standards FTTN started in 2013

          • So, even with the numbers he quoted it’s ~65330 FTTN vs 120845 FTTP PER YEAR.

            With 2013 vs 2011 it’s of course much better again. Sooo… really, he just all round sucks at producing a coherent argument. But no news here.

          • Such people (trusty MTM soldiers) aren’t here for coherent anything…

            I believe it is their sole purpose to talk complete shit to deflect from any negative MTM articles and positive articles opposing.

            The fact that MTM is the greatest disaster build in our history and every article is negative accordingly and anything other than FRAUDBAND (the govs own description for their own network) would be superior, simply means 24/7 deflective shit talk from the crusaders…

      • I think the problem with it is that it significantly increases the complexity of network management – entirely new systems have had to be designed and built to strap HFC onto NBN’s management and control systems.

        Yeah, I share your concern there, but I think the speed that they could add ~30% of the rollout to the NBN almost overnight counterbalances that a bit. While it adds to the complexity, thats a whole chunk of folks…

        I’m no HFC expert though

        Me either, I’ve only gained my opinion from a lot of Google searches, but I suspect Charlim is:

        https://delimiter.com.au/2016/05/05/shorten-promises-australia-first-rate-fibre-nbn/#li-comment-734864

        Hopefully he can jump in and answer your more specific technical questions. But you might be able to work it our yourself with these links (you may need to use the Reference section/links a lot though):

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_x

        I’m not saying HFC is “The Answer” for all time, I’m just saying it’s a good stop gap measure for nbn™ to get some revenue and network speed happening quickly.

      • Coaxial lead-in cables can vary in length anywhere from several meters, upwards to 150m.

        The ‘fibre/coax junction hardware’ are these boxes here;
        http://www.arris.com/products/opti-max-om4100-4×4-segmentable-node/

        They take a fibre optic input into a ‘foward path receiver’, where the signal is translated from optical to electrical, and some signal conditioning is conducted (slope / gain adjustments), before it is sent out on the coaxial line plant at quite high power.

        “What are the subscription rates Vs fibre capacity (not just a function of the number of connections per fibre, but also capacity of that fibre as different fibre can carry variable traffic loads)?”

        This is a complex question, and somewhat loaded. Let me try to break it down.

        Subscription rates is really about how many subscribers are connected to any one node port. Current network design has Telstra nodes at around 600/port (average across the country), and optus is up around 1200/port.

        Fibre capacity…

        A single fibre strand will connect to a single OM4100 (Node).
        On that fibre, will be a modulated optical signal (modulated by electrical RF..).
        That modulated signal carries all of the CMTS carrier-waves, and foxtel.

        Current technology (DOCSIS3.0) allows for a single carrier, to facilitate around 50mbps in the forward path (download speed), and around 33mbps return path (upload speed).

        Current network design has 16 carriers in the forward path (~800mbps), and around 8 in the return path (~260mbps) – these figures are total available bandwidth to be shared at the node port (which can service anywhere up to 1200 customers, as is the case in optus’s network).

        Your cable modem can lock onto only a certain number of carriers at a time, in any direction, so whilst there may be 800mbps available total, your modem can only lock onto a few of those carriers.

        Those carriers can be shared by any other cable modem connecting to that OM4100 node.

        Each carrier is approx 8mhz wide.
        The total spectrum available if the band was entirely cleared out of legacy transmitters, is around 915mhz (1ghz being the top of the band, minus 85mhz as the start of the band).

        915mhz / 8mhz = ~114carriers total (@50mbps each).
        Assume a bit of room either side of each carrier for some dead-space, to seperate them, and you would be better off at around 100 carriers total. That is 5gbps, per node port available to all customers on the same coaxial segment which that node feeds.

        Now that is a node that is NOT segmented.

        There is a method to increase bandwidth to customers yet again, called ‘node segmentation’.

        You feed the node with more fibres, or…more ‘optical carriers’ over a single fibre (using DWDM), and you use 4 entirely seperate RF feeds.

        Now those 600 customers can be split into 4, each section have its own ‘segmented’ bandwidth to play with (5gbps per 150 customers, instead of per 600 customers).

        Amazing, right?

        We can go deeper….

        Current network layout has a laser feeding an OM4100 node (optical to the node, coax from the node out).
        The OM4100 feeds a coax-plant with up to 5 amplifiers (N+5), though typically it is N+3 in the Telstra environment.

        Well….we can replace these coaxial line amps, with…you guessed it, more OM4100 nodes.

        In an N+3 environment where there are 600 subs per node, you can go to N+1, and now you have 300 total per node.

        Segment that node 4×4, and you have 5gbps per 75 customers.

        This is what is called going ‘fibre-deep’, and it is the next-step in the HFC expansion/upgrade (a path that wont be taken for 10-15 years yet).

        The next evolution still, is to take the fibre all the way to the customers home, and have a dedicated ‘micronode’ (also called N+0) at the customers house. This is where things start to get genuinely technically challenging, as you have to deal with a phenomenon known as Optical Beat Interference (OBI) if you are not using dedicated fibres per home (noone will…so you have to work around this).

        There are some solutions out there that apparently eliminate this entirely, however it remains to be seen what impacts these solutions have on other performance parameters of the network.

        ……thats….about as short-an-overview as I can do for you without going into too much detail.

        • Segment that node 4×4, and you have 5gbps per 75 customers.

          I’d be quite happy if they did that because that would lower the layer 1 contention ratios dramatically. You’d actually have ~66 mbps of minimum down stream bandwidth which is very close to that of GPON which is ~78 mbps of minimum down stream bandwidth using 32 way splitters.

          • If so then that’s pretty pointless, just spend the money on GPON now and get it over and done with!

          • There’s a reason ‘do it once, do it right, do it fibre’ is a thing :)

            The improvements being milked out of end of life technologies is technically impressive, but simply can’t compete.

          • It doesn’t have to compete, you won’t get to choose if you want HFC or FTTN or FTTP.

          • Ah so devoid you are finally admitting that “technology choice” is total b.s..

            Bout bloody time!

          • @ alain

            “It doesn’t have to compete, you won’t get to choose if you want HFC or FTTN or FTTP”

            Lol Mr previously I’m against being “forcibly migrated” onto the FTTH NBN as we need choice at wholesale level, is now (surprise, surprise, falling in line again) quite ok with, err, being forcibly migrated to FRAUDBAND and having no choice at wholesale level…

            You’re welcome.

  9. I was under the impression that HFC is a valid stop-gap solution (vs the invalid FTTN) if enough money was poured in to alleviate contention.

    Can someone point me to an in depth resource that points out the problems i.e. how much it would cost to properly implement docsis 3.1?

  10. Problem with HFC being, the fact it is not a nationwide solution to the problem, as it’s only available in certain areas. This would necessitate either rolling out more HFC, which would be almost as silly as rolling out more copper…..

    Sure HFC is ok (certainly not FAILED, as our resident shill said some 5 years ago) as a consolation, but FttP was and is the way to go nationally, IMO.

  11. The vacillating FTTP fans aka FTTdp fans aka HFC fans are finally supporting the MtM model.

    To finally acknowledge the original Labor NBN plan to shut down and overbuild HFC with expensive brownfields FTTP was a mistake along with the FTTB infrastructure choice mistake is good to see.

    • Really Reality?

      Or your complete lack of comprehension skills need addressing. Oh that’s what it is….

      But why can’t you ever tell us why you… now support the use of HFC, that you previously referred to as FAILED, HFC?

      GO

      You can run but you can’t hide from your own ridiculous, totally partial, double standards and contradictions.

      You’re welcome.

      • I find it hilarious that he always disappears when you bring up his comments on HFC.

        Nothing even close to a response.

        • That’s because I have no idea what he is talking about, complete OT desperate diverting gibberish.

          • Then demand evidence of his claims, ignoring it and not responding just makes it look like you admit to saying it.

            Prove him wrong.

          • Ooh, come on alain after all this time you now deny… ROFL.

            Speaking of gibberish, grow some and man-up, as we both know, don’t we?

            I always considered you a political schemer but never an out and out lowly liar.

            You’re welcome

    • The vacillating FTTP fans aka FTTdp fans aka HFC fans are finally supporting the MtM model.

      For the record, even the ALP plan was “MtM”, in that it wasn’t using one technology for the entire network.

      And no, I don’t support Malcolm’s version of “MtM” because FttN is stupid. There is no way forward with it without “pie in the sky” tech advances, and even those require adding more nodes so there is less distance to get any benefit. Plain and simple, it’s a waste of money.

      Unlike you, I’ve always said HFC is fine for the short term and I’ve always said FttB makes more sense in MDU’s that won’t/can’t give access to the internals. And I’ve come to view FttDP as a sensible first step in that it does have a sensible upgrade future and it’s cost and build times are reasonable.

      If you see that as me vacillating, fair enough, you’re entitled to that opinion.

      I see you as inflexible and incapable of reason.

      But thats just my opinion.

      • Indeed TM… coming from alain/reality, who has made such claims as: –

        “FTTP can’t help but succeed because it’s a monopoly. Then a fortnight later, FTTP will fail like HFC failed.”

        “FTTP is a monopoly with no choice of wholesalers, which we are being forcibly migrated to against our will”. But has never mentioned MTM as a monopoly and is no longer concerned about choice or being forcibly migrated.

        One who said “most people are happy with ADSL speeds and FTTP speeds are unnecessary”. Now supports (failed) HFC with DOCSIS 3.1 and copper with g.fast… for faster speeds.

        Who whinged about the waste of $45B for FTTP/missing of roll out targets from the start up NBN and lauded $29.5B for the cheaper/faster [sic] MTM… is now comfortable with UP TO $56B and four year waits beyond the promised fully costed ready to go/for all by 2016 MTM.

        Stating previous reviews/alterations to FTTP/NBN were election promises broken and mismanagement. Now uses revisions to excuse MTM costs and time frames blowing out disastrously.

        And the list goes on…

        So one like this claiming “others” are vacillating is nothing more than extreme hypocrisy.

        • So one like this claiming “others” are vacillating is nothing more than extreme hypocrisy.

          Possibly, but to me it shows his profound ignorance and a total lack of critical thinking.

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