Morrow hints at long-term FTTP upgrade for MTM NBN

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news The chief executive of the NBN company has stated in a radio interview that the National Broadband Network will eventually go to “the same place” as Labor’s original Fibre to the Premises model through continual upgrades to the network over time, in a move which appears to offer long-term hope for those displeased by the Government’s controversial multi-technology model.

Last week NBN chief executive Bill Morrow conducted an interview with 2GB presenter Chris Smith (available in full online). On the show, Morrow was asked about the Coalition’s controversial Multi-Technology Mix model for the NBN, which is seeing Labor’s original near-universal Fibre to the Premises model for the network significantly watered down, and the technically inferior copper and HFC networks owned by Telstra and Optus re-used.

Morrow said the previous FTTP model would have caused “driveways to be dug up, a lot of gardens to be destroyed, and a lot of frustration in terms of going out to each and every one of our homes” to deploy the model.

Labor’s FTTP model would have seen fibre cables deployed all the way to customers’ homes and business premises.

The new model, Morrow said, allowed the NBN company to re-use existing infrastructure, in a technique that would see the NBN deployed faster, and the NBN company not having to spend as much money initially on the rollout.

“Now, ultimately we’ll go to the same place,” Morrow told Smith, “but it will be with different technology enhancements — we’re not constrained by speed or limitations that some people had believed.”

Smith said the MTM rollout didn’t necessarily mean that “in 25 years we can’t go fibre all the way to the home”.

“That’s right, and in fact when you look at it, our build will be complete in the year 2020,” said Morrow. The executive added that 1.7 premises premises could already access the NBN today, out of the approximate 12 million planned nationally.

“The technology is changing so fast,” he added. “We already know that over half of those homes and businesses already have access to super high speeds like 1Gbps already, with these networks that we’re putting into the ground right now. And as that technology evolves, it gets cheaper, it gets easier, as demand increases, we’ll continue to evolve that technology.”

“So this really is a ‘grow as you need it, as you’re willing to pay for it, as you actually use it in your home or your business’.”

Morrow said he did not believe the NBN company needed “any more money” than the $29.5 billion that the Coalition Government had committed to the NBN project.

opinion/analysis
I think what we’re seeing here from Morrow is a combination of two things.

Firstly, the executive is conflating technologies such as Fibre to the Distribution Point and the G.Fast standard, as well as the DOCSIS 3.1 standard which the NBN company plans to implement on the HFC cable networks, with the speeds and capacity available via a full FTTP rollout as Labor had planned.

Although FTTP is substantially technically superior on a range of measures compared with these technologies (upload speeds, congestion, reliability and ease and cost of maintenance are just some of the more obvious issues), it has become common for the NBN company to mention these technologies in the same breath as FTTP recently, conflating their capabilities in an apparent attempt to assure the Australian public that they’re not missing out on anything under the MTM model.

Of course, this is misleading — even as it is par for the course for the NBN company these days.

However, I think Morrow is also hinting at the long-term upgrade prospects for the MTM.

It is clear that Fibre to the Node or Fibre to the Distribution Point can theoretically be upgraded to a full FTTP rollout down the track, and a similar fibre extension process also exists for the HFC cable networks. What Morrow appears to be hinting at here is that 2020 is not that far away — after that date, when the MTM will supposedly be complete, the NBN company will then start looking at further upgrades. The FTTdp process has already begun, but there are also plenty of further options.

Perhaps I’m putting words in his mouth here. But perhaps also what we’re seeing from Morrow here is the first glimpses of an acknowledgement that the MTM model is not the end goal for the NBN — even as early as from 2020.

I certainly hope so. Because I do not personally want to be left on a crappy Fibre to the Node service in 2020 or 2025 when others in my neighbourhood have long had access to a full FTTP installation to their premises. That is a fundamentally unjust situation which I don’t think the Australian public should put up with.

Image credit: NBN company

175 COMMENTS

  1. >> “Morrow said the previous FTTP model would have caused “driveways to be dug up, a lot of gardens to be destroyed…”

    FTTP has been deployed to several hundred thousand premises in Australia and tens of millions overseas. How many gardens and driveways were actually dug up ?

    If you can’t feed the fiber through the existing conduit, then it is probably crushed and full of mud and may have to be replaced anyway to get good service over copper. There are already stories on whirlpool of people needing a replacement copper lead in for FTTN.

    • Yeah I wondered that as well based on the current rollout of FttP they would know how common this actually is (Not Very) yet continue with this fear tactic

    • Basically he is talking about the uk as most of there copper there is directly buried. That’s where the digging up front yards come from Where here most here is by conduit.

    • This “Morrow said the previous FTTP model would have caused “driveways to be dug up, a lot of gardens to be destroyed…” is what shits me, as you said in a lot of cases the existing 20mm lead in pipe is usually still serviceable and if it’s not, it’s not a matter of just digging up dirt, usually the land owner gives their permission and in some cases even front up the cost involved or if they really don’t wont anything to be dug up there is a range of products that can overcome this. One of which is a ruggedised 2F drop cable, which can either be clipped along a fence or retaining wall or can be laid in a shallow 30mm slot trench which slaves a lot of money and time, the fact Morrow and the Libs seem to ignore measures such as these and continue to just spurt out fear mongering BS continues to baffle me. For anyone that may have concerns about a fibre being laid above ground, it’s really a non issue, as it’s sealed in a complete waterproof casing that’s extremely tough and can be driven over without damaging, it is largely what NZ is deploying.

    • Yes, it’s absolute rubbish. I live in Kingsville VIC, a brownfields NBN FTTH area. I haven’t seen any front yards or gardens dug up, and I’ve walked a lot around my suburb. The most I’ve seen is footpaths dug up in a few places, and then replaced with new footpath. Speaking to some of the techs installing the NBN cables at the time, the biggest obstacle was asbestos.

  2. The TL;DR version of this:

    “…you know that FTTP idea that we could have spent the money building in the first place? Yeah, we’re going to spend money doing the FTTN version, then spend more money again to convert it to FTTP anyway – you taxpayers don’t mind if we do the job twice for more money, right?”

    #headdesk

    • When me and some of my mates (who have worked in the telco industry) kicked around the FTTP NBN concept when first released, we thought a combination of HFC, DSL, Wireless, Sat and FTTP mix, with a 25 year upgrade path FTTP was a more sensible option.

      This also bought time to assess improving wireless tech.

      We also thought that fibre and underground power should be deployed together in the process. Fix 2 infrastructure upgrades in 1.

      I still think MTM is pragmatic, and a long game.

      But despite that, I don’t think your TL;DR version is what Morrow is saying. I think he is saying you’ll get the same speed, but over different tech, but you don’t have to worry about that.

      • Funnily enough, my family and friends, who also work in the telco industry, thought a straight to FttP build was the more sensible option. They didnt see any sense in spending billions on something that was going to either be outdated before it was even built, or not long after.

        It was a one off build, with any future change being at either end of the connection – the exchange, or the modem – which was far cheaper and easier to handle than needing to redig everything up in a decade.

        Which with FttN is the upgrade path. That fibre connection from the node to the home isnt going to put itself in, so we’re just needing to repeat the same build process FttN is going through now, and how much will that cost at the time?

  3. Is this what you mean ‘Although FTTP is substantially technically inferior on a range of measures compared’ or should it be FTTN

  4. Isn’t the point of the MTM is it is meant to save $18B until 2040? It doesn’t look like that will be the case.
    1) Most of that eaten up by the $15B cost blowout due to underestimating copper remediation and HFC costs.
    2) NO upgrades were costed past the initial rollout. To even be a similar cost they would need to upgrade to FTTH for $3B…
    Who would have thought this would be the case? Everyone except Turnbull and his sycophants.

    • Well the SR had a $2B saving doing fibre later but now with the $15B blow not anymore.

  5. Haha sounds about right..

    “The executive added that 1.7 premises premises could already access the NBN today,”

  6. Finally putting to death the claim of a once in a lifetime upgrade.

    Technology continues its advance. Many options for the future should demanded speed increase.

    Renai might like to write about the present speed of the rollout now FTTN has been launch.

    Increase in serviceable premises per 4 week period:

    19NOV15-17DEC15 ( 999036 – 902409 ) / 4 = 24,156 / week
    20NOV14-18DEC14 ( 385607 – 360898 ) / 4 = 6,177 / week
    24NOV13-22DEC13 ( 186290 – 172996 ) / 4 = 3,323 / week

    Again Australians in the fixed line footprint would enjoying ubiquitous high speed internet today (for significantly less spend) if fibre wasn’t insisted upon. Service class zero premises continue to fall.

    Still no satellite (Quigley in 2015), debt & interest continue to mount.
    Few at NBNCo will be looking to get off this terrific earner anytime soon. They’ll talk upgrades forever (all models).

      • @jk a 3 years delay? Never good with numbers.

        In NBNCo’s 5th year they were doing 3k / wk. rollout changes instituted by the new management had that increase, peaking at 8k / wk. a couple of months into FTTN we’re already at 24k. Wait until HFC comes online.

        18mth delay (FTTH continuing) for MTM would have cost billions. But overall less than alternative. The policy will be very expensive for taxpayers.

        • Lol first you claim FTTN doing 24K then in the post below you don’t know what the real FTTN numbers are. But then even though you claim to be a numbers man your not good at numbers are you. Hiding behind CPP cost but peak funding almost the same as last know figures. But again trying to use figures to suit your agenda.

          • @jk steps up with another reading comprehension issue (no better with letters). Re-read my post.

            Can’t work out your CPP / peak funding position. Doesn’t make any sense, not surprising.

          • Lol Richard how’s that 24K FTTN that you can’t confirm but then numbers man failing in the numbers again.

          • @jk the 24k is confirmed, weekly progress report. I don’t know how this can be any simpler. It’s extraordinary you project you’re ignorance at me. Again Inask you make some effort to learn something.

          • Lol Richard “Breakdown of technologies not available” 24K FTTN numbers man still fails

          • @jk I didn’t claim a breakdown though did I. Another fail.

            @hc yet another quality post. Includes surname to intimidate. Won’t work.

          • Richard “a couple of months into FTTN we’re already at 24k”. But then that 24K could be just FTTP as NBN are in the habit of holding back. Another fail by Richard numbers man

        • “rollout changes instituted by the new management had that increase, peaking at 8k / wk.”
          What a joke. Rollout changes instituted by the new management was ‘cancel all non-locked in contracts’ – this does not result in a ramp up – what results in a ramp up are things like the Melton trials, which new management tried to pretend didn’t exist.

          “18mth delay (FTTH continuing)”
          Never good with numbers. That’s a 24 month delay (18 months on top of the expected 6) and FTTH was ground to a halt. Please specify a single area blessed with FTTP that wasn’t confirmed pre-election.

          “But overall less than alternative.”
          Precisely ‘a few’ billions less than alternative. And then there was an up to $15b blowout.

          • @hotc I’m shocked. I expected the fanboys to be ecstatic with the new numbers;-)

            FTTH didn’t ground to a halt, the numbers showing actual performance more than double the previous management. Then fanboys not aware of the rollout changes (cheerleading websites never covered them). Most would wonder how such a massive improvement was achieved in such a short time (couldn’t in five prior years).

          • Why am I not shocked or even surprised that the visionless, 1950’s dwelling copper cretins, are trying to completely FUD up this FTTP is the end goal thread?

            Phew, good thing he mentioned that magic word “upgrade” or (as per the flick) the dumb would have looked even dumber (if that is at all possible)…

            Again let me reiterate what even US conservatives (who normally even make our lunatic radcons here, look half sane) were saying 2-3 years ago about copper…

            http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/04/11/copper-wire-technology-whose-time-has-passed.html

          • “FTTH didn’t ground to a halt, the numbers showing actual performance more than double the previous management.”
            Your entire comment betrays you of having any knowledge of how a large scale rollout project works.

            A second time – Please specify a single area blessed with FTTP that wasn’t confirmed pre-election.

          • Blessed with the “admitted (by Morrow and the PM) end goal of FTTP”, as opposed to damned with the pointless middle man of FRAUDBAND/FTTN.

            You’re welocome

          • R, if by that you mean areas that were prescribed by the Coalition to be FTTP but then they changed their minds; then I guess so? But I figure that figure would be 0.

    • Yep compare a rollout that was being wound down before it had a chance to get fully rolling.

      Also Source?

      How many connections are FttN in the 2015 numbers?

      How many connections are FttB in the 2015 numbers?

      How many connections are FttP in the 2015 numbers?

      How many connections are Wireless in the 2015 numbers?

      • How long required to get fully going? Rollout not complicated (done in many countries) yet even in their 5th year Quigley’s NBNCo managing 3k a week. As I wrote at the time each of its 3500 employees could individually welcome a seviceable premise, if only welcome activations they could welcome one and take the rest of the month off.

        Source is the NBNCo weekly progress reports. Instituted after the new management took over (new ministers SoE). Remember the old days where would wait months for an update (failing to meet CP forecasts by massive margin).

        Breakdown of technologies not available in these reports only totals brownfield (above), greenfield, FW, satellite.

        • Well that is pointless then I could assume that the 24000 a week are FttP based on that.

          The rollout had been ramping up from the trial stages (just like FttN 6 months ago) 6 months ago there were only ~13000 premises per week and six months earlier only around ~6000.

          This is what happens in the early stages of trials and initial rollout.

          Why can this be OK for FttN but not FttP?

          • @aj you could assume that, but would require believing the rate of serviceable premised jumped up 2-3 times after FTTN was launched. you’re right it would be nice to have the full breakdown.

            FTTH numbers had plateaued.

          • You mean after 12 months under the Coalition they had stopped increasing wow shocker they reduced targets to that level.

            If you set a target of 6000 premises a week as the Coalition did what would you expect to happen?

          • Are you suggesting that companies should hire more people to install FttP even though they knew the rollout would be wound back?

            Hiring people at that stage would have been a massive risk as nobody knew how long it would take for FttN to be ready to rollout.

            The rollout plateaued due to 2 factors

            1) Targets were capped at 6000 premises per week.
            2) Massive financial risk to hire staff to rollout a plan that was years away from begining.

            Please explain how these were not the major factors?

          • @aj valid points. Said before the change of govt I’d be looking towards Telstra when the incorrect claim was made I was heading to NBNCo after the election.

            Doesn’t excuse NBNCo disastrous 5 yr performance though does it, nor new management required to double the rate to 6k.

          • Gee double the rate in a year that was soooooo hard do they want a sticker?

            During that year the real goal would have been 4-8 times but if you want to praise 2 time it shows how easily pleased you are to accept a mediocre rollout.

        • “even in their 5th year Quigley’s NBNCo managing 3k a week”

          Incredibly disingenuous…
          The rollout began at the end of 2011, and work was frozen for the election in mid 2013. So during the first 18 months of the rollout, and while still overcoming all of the unforeseen obstacles (like the asbestos in the pits), Quigley managed 3k/week while having in place things like Project Fox to drastically reduce costs and increase the speed of the rollout. That is how a true professional does things. Sadly, the current admin has a blocked windscreen and only their rear-view mirror appears to be functioning.

    • Richard FTTP ramp up would be occurring now too if it wasn’t canned. Don’t think your increase in weekly FTTN serviceable premises numbers are so special.

      FTTN/FTTB rollout and takeup is abysmal. TPG is miles and miles infront of NBN in the FTTB rollout and they started around the same time. TPG has 10x more buildings than NBN enabled and shows no sign of slowing.

      • @fb true NBNCo performance across the board is terrible. Pointed out many times.

        No I don’t think FTTH ramp up would have continued. Management was disastrous, failing to acknowledge a problem. How many years does it require to lay fibre cable at pace?

        Source for your FTTN rollout/take up claim?

        • it takes time to train contractors, sign contracts, ramp up, etc – that was all well underway and basically had to be restarted for FTTN.

          Regarding rubbish rollout/takeup for FTTN/FTTB – source was Senate Committees on NBN – the numbers were revealed by NBN Co.

          • @fz perhaps a link?

            We fully qualify apprentices in less than five years. Laying fibre isn’t rocket science. NBNCo failed massively.

          • You’re wasting your time – Richard ignores logic whenever it suits him. He’ll be back pushing the same wagon tomorrow, no matter how many times he is educated and how much evidence is provided demonstrating his position is untenable. He is here to force his opinion upon others and undermine the conversation with disingenuous misinformation, he has comprehensively demonstrated an incapacity to acknowledge facts and logical arguments of others. Because of that he is not worth engaging with – he’s nothing more than a troll.

          • The final sign-off by Telstra was in mid 2011, and the commercial rollout of the FTTP didn’t happen until October 2011 with the beginning ramp in Dec 2011.
            Then the rollout was frozen for the election in mid 2013, with a whole new board coming in and all new work basically halted.
            My math shows that Labor’s NBN was alive for about 18 months…
            Included in that was things like the work halt from asbestos in the pits…

            Looking at demand, it appears that FTTP growth worldwide is at 1000% and increasing.

            http://www.telecomtv.com/articles/fixed-access/google-s-1-gbit-s-fibre-not-so-over-the-top-now-as-it-mulls-chicago-and-l-a-13202/

    • “Increase in serviceable premises per 4 week period:”
      Increase in FTTN connections per 4 week period:

      19NOV15-17DEC15 ( 25 – 5 ) / 4 = 5 / week

    • “Again Australians in the fixed line footprint would enjoying ubiquitous high speed internet today (for significantly less spend) if fibre wasn’t insisted upon. ”

      Where do you get your claptrap from Richard? That’s the biggest line of baloney that you’ve spouted in a while, and you have promulgated some whoppers…

      • @s BT started at the same time. Passed some 60m premises in the time NBNCo has completed 1m.

        Even at current install rate above (ignoring big jump when HFC come online) the fixed line would have taken 6 years. NBNCo in their late seventh. If the private sector had have been engaged it would have completed many years ago.

        NBNCo today under 1m serviceable brownfields. A disastrous performance by any measure (half in the last year), a fraction of their CP predictions. Management has paid themselves bonuses every year!

        • Well Richard the private sector was engaged if you remember the tender process with a certain private company that controlled the copper didn’t want to do it with there 12 page submission. But then apparent there was going to be billions of invest before then lol.

          But then BT already had a network to build from.

          • @jk there was billions invested before NBN. Sadly you (alone) continue to believe pre-NBN voice and data was delivered by fairies.

            True Conroy was a terrible negotiator. Been covered a number of times. Might pay to learn something so we don’t have to revisit exactly the same topics again and again.

          • Lol Richard billion investing in ADSL 1 and 2+ while the rest of the world is moving on. So the SR was delivered by fairies now lol is that because the CP16 has crushed your beloved SR.

        • @ Richard

          ROFL…

          “BT passed 60m premises”

          Absolute fucking BS… and you are “THEE self proclaimed numbers guru who is beyond reproach” (well apart from AO Henry of course)…

          Credibility now in the minuses…

          • BT is a holding company, Openreach is its retail outlet.

            Most of BT’s profits are generated by its Openreach subsidiary, which controls the UK’s ‘last mile’ copper infrastructure. Since 2005, BT have been accused of abusing their control of Openreach, particularly by UNDERINVESTING in the UK’s broadband infrastructure, charging high prices and providing poor customer service. The UK’s telecoms regulator Ofcom is currently investigating whether to order BT to sell Openreach, and is expected to report in January 2016.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Grou

        • BT was upgrading their own network. They didn’t have to negotiate with other parties that held up the project for years. They didn’t have to wait for legislation that was held up by a hostile political party for nine months. They didn’t find asbestos throughout their network of ducts which held up their rollout for a year. They didn’t have major contractors failing to meet their contracted responsibilities.

          But it doesn’t matter if NBN Co had hit every milestone in the FTTP rollout, you would still be vehemently opposed to it and spouting the same ‘irresponsible, FTTN cheaper & faster’ mantra. Because facts are irrelevant in an ideological argument.

          • Rizz,

            But it doesn’t matter if NBN Co had hit every milestone in the FTTP rollout,

            Only because they kept adjusting the milestones downward, at the end in 2013 the milestone targets were half of what they originally predicted.

            Under that technique all milestones for any sort of build can be met, easily.

          • @Reality,

            Are you really that bad at reading comprehension?

            He is saying even IF NBN Co had hit all of their original targets in the FTTP rollout, you’d still be complaining about it.

            Also, you’re not replying to Rizz, you’re replying to a different person, unless of course you’re implying that UninvitedGuest IS Rizz, then whatever, keep accusing people who disagree with you as sock puppets, because apparently nobody could disagree with you, and if they do, they must be the same person.

          • ‘He is saying even IF NBN Co had hit all of their original targets in the FTTP rollout, you’d still be complaining about it.’

            The point is moot, they convincingly did not.

          • And yet Reality your not showing the same distain on the double halved targets in 2 years for the current rollout

          • @Reality, man, even if the point is moot, you still act like you are right.

            His point, whether moot or not, is that you are ideologically against FTTP. Whether they perfectly rolled it out, or not, you would still be against it.

          • “at the end in 2013 the milestone targets were half of what they originally predicted.

            Under that technique all milestones for any sort of build can be met, easily.”
            Unless you’re the Liberal party – a quarter of the targets and still delayed by 4 years with a blowout of almost twice the initial estimation…

          • @ JK

            “And yet Reality your not showing the same distain on the double halved targets in 2 years for the current rollout..”

            Touche’ and + 1

            Herein lies the problem with the copper throwbacks, which is my point to this specimen regularly, which of course he avoids perpetually and will never address…

            I.e primarily everything he said derogatorily towards the last roll out, he now fully supports with this roll out and he’ll contradict himself entirely in his mouth-frothing desperation to applaud the current government’s every move?

            Fucking disgraceful and worthy of ridicule, as one who is so mindlessly vocal, IMO.

        • “BT started at the same time. Passed some 60m premises in the time NBNCo has completed 1m”

          So 60 times greater? Interesting that they have a population density that is 80 times greater as well…so far less distance to travel per lead-in, and the vast majority of premises are on the street itself rather than behind a front yard.

          • It’s these kind of B.S. claims from Reality_Distortion and his mate Richo which prove they are just a LibTroll’s.

            BT didnt have to build an infrastructure company from scratch! I bet Telstra could have finished an MtM build by now if they’d started at the same time too – problem is they refused to upgrade our national comms network for 12 years thanks to stupid decisions made by ….. you guessed it, the Liberals!!!!

        • “If the private sector had have been engaged it would have completed many years ago.”
          Then how come that didn’t happen when Telstra was privatised, considering Telecom had plans to do so since 1991?

          “Management has paid themselves bonuses every year!”
          Agreed the current bunch are not only paying themselves 1.5x the salary of the old bunch, PLUS keeping it for themselves instead of donating it to charity. A Royal Commission is required.

  7. Can we stop calling FTTN to FTTP an upgrade? It’s a new overbuild deployment as it is today. The NBNCo narrative tries to make it pretend like it’s just a new plug in upgrade and off they go.

    At absolute best case NBNCo could reuse the nodes, but really they are more likely to deploy new cabinets for GPON standard.

    And of course this is reliant on NBNCo actually getting into a positive financial situation where they can generate the $20b+ required. Which is likely never.

    • @dc they’ll reuse the cabinets if they go FTTH, already account for in the design: 8 of the 12 fibre strands reserved for it. Unlikely they’ll run fibre beyond the boundary though, cost prohibitive (hopefully learnt that lesson).

      I can’t see them reaching break even without an additional source of income (levy on non-NBN services?) or large assets writedown (taxpayers picking up the tab).

      • Richard – go an educate yourself on this topic before posting please. The below comes from Mark Network regarding ‘reusing those cabinets’:

        “FTTP uses about 1/3 the number of street cabinets as FTTN, and those cabinets are about 1/4 the size of FTTN cabinets (Think esky versus refrigerator). FTTP nodes also don’t require electrical power, unlike FTTN cabinets. All of the DSL systems that go along with FTTN are also wasted.

        All of the considerable labour costs of rolling out FTTN, such as fibre installation, cabinet installation, electrical labour, fibre splicing, copper upgrades etc are all wasted when moving to FTTP. Worse, it will cost more money to remove the redundant FTTN architecture and electrical systems when FTTP is rolled out.”

        • @fz wow mark network said! Then I’d recommend he speaks with the current NBNCo designers; the actual upgrade plan reuses existing nodes.

          • You know Richie…

            … if you actually let go of the complete narcissism and thought for just one second even only once, that you aren’t the font of ALL knowledge and instead of faithfully and obediently toeing the party line 24/7, actually considered (with, heaven forbid, an open mind) other people’s weighted and often very knowledgeable comments you may just learn something?

            Oh of course not how silly of me… you’ve already learnt it ALL, thanks to leaning on us tax payers, via your free education… so carry on.

            :/

          • My apologies to Mark Newton (not Mark Network), although maybe we can call him Mr Network like Tony calls Malcolm Mr Broadband…

            I don’t know what ‘upgrade plan’ you are supposedly referring to? There is none, they just make it up as they go. Unless you are referring to the murmurs on g.fast, how does that relate to FTTP?

          • “Then I’d recommend he speaks with the current NBNCo designers; the actual upgrade plan reuses existing nodes.”

            Would you care to post a link to this upgrade plan?

        • @FZ

          “Go educate yourself on the topic”…

          Exactly what I said to Richard some 5 years ago (except I didn’t write the word topic, because I thought we all understood the basic protocol of comments and the relation to the “topic”)..

          But of course Richard got all huffy over me suggesting him uneducated, which alone prompted him to explain his (supposed) long list of credentials…and his enduring, self proclaimed superiority, when commenting.

          How the wheel turns and the irony that even some 5 years later the very same supposedly educated man is no further educated in regards to ”the topic” still.

          I especially love the 60m premises passed by BT comment (above)… GOLD

      • @Richard At this stage not convinced on the cabinet. For Fibre-On-Demand (if it actually exists) they are using multiport upstream of the node rather than provision from the node itself.

        Would generally agree that any new deployment will be up the street only. I’m open to that idea, no different to power/water utilities, with ownership on the residence to connect to either FTTP or FTTdp. They’d have to do away with mandatory cutovers though IMO along with NBN remaining as a GBE.

      • Richard, they can’t re-use the FTTN cabinets because they are too small to allow for a migration from FTTN to FTTP. there simply isn’t room for them to hold the GPON splitters and the FTTN active electronics at the same time.

        It’s an over build scenario pure and simple, otherwise you need to cut off everyone’s services while you gut the cabinet and install the GPON splitters and roll fibre past the homes etc.

        • Derek…

          IMHO, it’s pointless trying to educate those who either refuse to see, aren’t politically allowed to see, are too egotistical to see… or as the case may be, “all of the above”…

          …it’s much easier just to point and laugh.

          ;)

          • True mate, don’t know why I bother, liberals and logic are diametrically opposed – I shouldn’t be surprised, after all they call themselves liberals when they are actually conservatives!

            Talk about delusional!

          • FFS… bit like our other mate who says Quigley knows SFA… but his smoking gun is… look what Quigley said…

            The Greens said eh?

            Tell us that you also agree with other Greens comments like Aboriginal Rights, Republicanism, Climate Change/Emissions (dare I say carbon tax) and Not stopping the boats…

            Oh that’s right it’s cheery season… carry on.

            GOLD.

          • I have to say I am shocked reality you linked something that is true to what your saying.

            But then while we are building this mess those who have already built FTTN will be moving on. “we are helping our customers to launch their next-generation fiber projects”. You must be very proud to be so far behind the pack what was it 46th or something.

          • And this is a Cabinet with GPON fitted:

            http://1mmc.com/pub/nbn-roadside-cab.jpg

            Notice all the cable management that is required for the splitters etc. Also worth noting that the line card upgrade for a Node is the active end of a GPON install that would normally be housed in a POI/Exchange due to the 14-40km range or GPON/NG-PON2. The Line card upgrade here would feed a GPON splitter cabinet, not replace one.

          • The NBN Co distribution fibre architecture supports both FTTN and FTTP deployments, and the FTTN cabinets can be converted to full FTTP capabilities.

            You will note that NBN Co was also asked what an upgrade to convert a FTTN cabinet to full FTTP would take. NBN Co did not answer that, did not make any effort whatsoever.

            Could it be that they do not really know what it would take? Maybe they haven’t planned what it would take as they have no intention of doing any future “bulk upgrade”.

            The other possibility is that NBN Co did not answer the second part of the question because it would expose how disruptive any such upgrade would be. Maybe NBN services would be disrupted for more than a week?

          • So as stated with links it is possible to upgrade FTTN nodes to FTTH, the argument now has to move to how long will this take.

            What you need to work out before any of that is when will FTTN have to be upgraded to FTTP and why?

            Why does Australia need to upgrade FTTN to FTTP sooner than other countries with well established FTTN infrastructure and speed upgrades to that infrastructure like G.Fast because our need for speed is uniquely urgent.

            Apparently not that urgent, the most popular NBN FTTP Plans are the two lower speeds plans.

          • Lol Reality g.fast is going to work with FTTN lol consider g.fast needs 200m and the average length of node to pillar is 350m lol

          • lol which lol doesn’t answer the lol key question. lol

            When will Australia need to upgrade FTTN with or without G.fast upgrades to FTTP and why?

            The would apply to DOCSIS 3.1 HFC, when will it need to be replaced with FTTP?

          • Reality_Distortion you continue to amaze me with your inability to comprehend even simple concepts, as such you wont be getting any more responses from me.

            I’m going to heed the old advice to “not to cast pearls before swine*”!

            *or in your case: LibTrolls

          • Yes no predictions when FTTN or HFC will be needed to be upgraded to FTTP and why, but it’s needed real soon or not as the case may be.

            Either that or convince punters on FTTP plans today to move to the higher speed plans, real soon.

          • Obviously alain, we needed FttP years ago…

            You told us HFC was a complete failure only good for the pigeons to rest upon – DIDN’T YOU?

            Ah I can foresee either our trusty alain going MIA “again” or some strange deflection (perhaps suggesting I’m Richard too) to avoid actual “reality” of what was said.

            And before that we had the political entity who now roll out FTTN, calling FTTN fraudband…

            Yet you now desperately and faithfully (but inevitably unsuccessfully) try to justify all of what actually occurred and was said, to suit the politics?

            You’re welcome.

          • “This is from 2010, I am sure the upgrade technology if required has been improved on even more by now.”

            Except that the nodes that are being rolled out will have no room left for FTTP cards…so yes it would have been possible, but as long as the LNP are in charge it cannot happen.

            “So as stated with links it is possible to upgrade FTTN nodes to FTTH”

            It is possible to upgrade a tin can and string to FTTP…what’s your point?

          • Yes I thought once again your old contradictions would be too tough (READ: embarrassing and humiliating) for you to explain alain, so typically, MIA you go… *sigh*

            Well after all there are only four explanations for such disgraceful double standards …

            1) Politics
            2) Money
            3) Stupidity
            4) All of the above

            Guess which I (and probably most here) think applies?

            You’re welcome.

          • In this case I’m betting on option 3. His kind (conservatives) are seemingly incapable of making independent assessments of individual situations and coming to a rational point of view.

            Instead they tow the party line they’ve been fed even in the face of overwhelming evidence that their party is wrong.

      • “they’ll reuse the cabinets if they go FTTH, … Unlikely they’ll run fibre beyond the boundary though,”
        Confirmed Flude has no clue what FTTH is.

  8. Hey Renai

    Just a small typo in the second paragraph “On the show, Morroe was asked about the Coalition’s controversial Multi-Technology Mix model for the NBN,” Should be Morrow.

  9. A former senior network engineer at Internode (now a senior engineer at Google) disagrees with the so called upgrade path of FTTN -> FTTP. I would trust Mark Newton before I trust any bullshit that comes from Turnbull or Morrow’s mouth.

    “All of the considerable labour costs of rolling out FTTN, such as fibre installation, cabinet installation, electrical labour, fibre splicing, copper upgrades etc are all wasted when moving to FTTP. Worse, it will cost more money to remove the redundant FTTN architecture and electrical systems when FTTP is rolled out.

    The only portion of an FTTN network that could potentially be reused would be sections of the fibre run to the nodes. But even this would have to be cut, added to, re-spliced and extensively modified to upgrade to an FTTP system.

    In other words, FTTN will cost money to roll out, have a short useful life, and cost more money to remove and replace. Of the estimated network cost of FTTN of about $15 billion, almost none adds any value or reduces the expense of a future “upgrade” to an FTTP system, so it’s money down the drain.

    To quote Mark Newton from Internode:

    “FTTN doesn’t bring FTTP any closer, but it does push it several billion dollars further away….there’s no upgrade path from one to the other. This notion that FTTN is a “stepping stone” to something else is pure fantasy. If an FTTN network is built you’d better like it, because it’ll be around for a long, long time to come.”

    https://nbnmyths.wordpress.com/why-not-fttn/

      • @s true VDSL line cards aren’t suitable for GPON. Lucky other options are available.

        Great article; BT delivering 76mbps, FoD option for the few needing the extra speed (and prepared to pay for it). Performance comparison with NBNCo couldn’t be starker.

          • beaten by soth.

            now i know Richard will say “but that is nov. 2014 figures”. and i say “so what?”

            we have line runs double and triple the runs BT is using for their product, let alone the fact they are using a better grade of copper. which will have commensurate effects on the speed. i.e. it will be worse. actually, it will be shit.

            we already know this with many who signed on for 100/40 nbn FTTN backing down to 50/20 or even 25/5 because the line simply cant sustain any better than that. just because BT ‘delivers’ 76 mbits by offering it for sale, in no way has any bearing on ACTUAL speeds obtained. most clearly seen in that 0% were getting better than 75.25 in either average 24h speeds or in peak hours. same applies to MTM nbn.

            and when people wake up to the reality that FTTN does not and cannot deliver what people like Mal and Richard promise, they will ask “so why did we spend money on this piece of shit?”. and i fully expect on that day Richard, you will still be trying to gild the turd, telling everyone how good it is. quit trolling, richard.

        • Don’t worry Soth had Richard using the ofcom report claiming that FTTN gets with in 10% of the advertise speed when it only tested 20 premises.

        • no. really. no.

          http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2015/06/only-1-percent-of-up-to-76mbps-customers-actually-get-76mbps-from-uk-isps/

          please quit trolling. just because BT “delivers” 76 mbits by offering it for sale in no way ensures that speed is ACTUALLY what you get – none of those got either an average speed (0% on graph) of 75.24 or better, nor peak time speed of 75.24 or better.

          however at some stage of the day (clearly in non peak hours) 1% were getting 75.24mbits or better, of those who ordered the top tier.

          now that may have improved by now, given those were Nov 2014 figures. but if you think that gives you good news to spruik about our network, we have line runs double and triple the runs BT are using, with obvious commensurate results on speed.

          i.e. it will be worse. in fact, shit.

          the performance comparison is not stark – it is in fact exactly the same as we are seeing here with many who ordered 100/40 tier backing down to 50/20 and even 25/5 because the much vaunted technology simply CANNOT deliver. it will not deliver and in the years to come we will be asking “why did we pony up for this useless piece of shit? its not fit for purpose?”. but i fully expect on that day you will be there, doing your best to gild the turd, because that is what you do.

  10. Morrow told Smith, “but it will be with different technology enhancements — we’re not constrained by speed or limitations that some people had believed.” No but the people getting MTM ahem “NBN” with non FTTP will be constrained by both speed and other limitations right? And that’s based on actual physics not a belief or faith based system, like I hope this will work.

  11. The chief executive of the NBN company has stated in a radio interview that the National Broadband Network will eventually go to “the same place” as Labor’s original Fibre to the Premises model through continual upgrades to the network over time,

    Going the MtM route is like driving from Adelaide to Melbourne via the great ocean road, it takes twice as long and costs more than twice as much as taking the direct route!

  12. Maybe Morrow is having a 2 bob bet each way considering its an election year or he might be out of a job.

    • I think he has been instructed to try and neutralize the MTM as an election issue. The NBN is not dead its just sleeping.

      • That comment is neutralizing the NBN? I think you will find it is the opposite.

        The NBN was certainly sleeping under six years of Labor, they had their chance and blew it.

          • Updated and changed long ago but you know that, apparently comparing what the Coalition did after two years with what Labor did after six years is a fair FTTP fan comparison.

            Two years in with the Labor NBN Co at the helm they were just thinking about where to locate the FTTP pilots, the first FTTP customer was not connected until 2010.

            You’re welcome.

          • Reality lol what was Turnbull first Target 10m by 2016 the SR Target of 4.5m by 2015 now cp16 2.5m by 2016.

            But then FTTP rollout didn’t start until 2011 change of rollout 2013 so really only 3 years Reality. It’s already a far comparison. So far done so bad only 50k connected to FTTN so far lol.

            But I do see your claiming CP change again to to try and def the failed rollout so far. So because you use that excuse to can’t complain about the FTTP rollout now can you because how did you put it CP change lol.

          • “Updated and changed long ago but you know that…”

            Der, yes I do know that.

            But the delicious irony of ironies is… YOU, who would never accept the “the other’s updates” and even ridiculed them daily for doing so, now has done a complete 180 and totally accepts the current mob and their every “update” (i.e.downgrade) and cost blow out with open arms.

            PRICELESS

            You’re welcome.

      • I just think Morrow is holding out false hope to help neutralize the anti FTTN group coming up to an election.
        Can’t work out the polling numbers seams Australian are more interested in appearances than substance. Labor have put out 50 polices while the Libs can’t get anything passed (which is good considering what they have put out is to get the poor and disadvantaged to pay more). Maybe this is what Australians feel comfortable with, a government who can’t do anything, and what they can touch they stuff up. Well if Turnbull is the icing on the cake than that’s what Australians get, the icing but there ain’t no cake.
        Now it’s your turn Richard, Reality troll away.

  13. I wonder who will be contracted to do the FTTN (and DP is not FTTN) to FTTP overbuild. Telstra perhaps?

    Wait…..no I don’t wonder…..I’m doing the other thing. Def not wonder…

  14. People like to say China officials are corrupt…
    But Australia is far more corrupt, the only difference Australian”officials” are far better at covering their tracks behind political donations and board of director retirement positions…

      • I have witnessed business in China. Low to mid-level corruption is an accepted practice on how to get things done. People budget for it.

        I’d have to say that what we have in Australia is an outright boys club (old white mens club really) but while they may not be openly (or even secretly) colluding, I’m pretty sure they all know the rules of the game under a Liberal government. Kind of how petrol companies work.

  15. Hey idiot LNP’s build the damn NBN properly without the bullshit outdated copper network.

  16. For an executive, Morrow sure doesn’t know enough about the build. Driveways dug up and gardens destroyed? That’s a bit much isn’t it? Has he even seen FTTP being installed at a single home? Sounds like he hasn’t. First of all, there is no digging up of driveways. If the driveway is in the way, the fibre is fed through a conduit placed underneath the driveway at a certain depth. The hole for conduit is dug out while leaving the driveway surface untouched. You won’t even know it’s there when it’s done. Second, why would gardens be destroyed? The fibre is fed through a conduit that likely already exists and I doubt it runs underneath a garden. There is no denying that for FTTP, there will be some digging but it will only be as much as is needed to run the fibre in from the street. You might lose a bit of lawn in the process but it’ll grow back. They make it sound like every house will have huge excavators come through for an FTTP rollout. This is nothing but typical Liberal nonsense. Guess that’s all they got left to win votes for MTM as they seem unable to argue for it on technical grounds. Australia needs to wake up and realise that they are being sold a lemon.

    Many people have said it before. Do it once, do it right and save money. With this MTM, it’s do it “cheaply” and get it wrong then spend more money fixing it up later. How can Morrow believe that NBNCo won’t need more than the $29.5 billion committed by the Government when it is already $56 billion plus. Expect this to be a lot higher with future upgrades. Oh wait. Government throws in $29.5 billion but we pay the rest and we pay for the upgrades too, right? No wonder they don’t seem to mind cost blowouts. Idiots.

    “We already know that over half of those homes and businesses already have access to super high speeds like 1Gbps already with these networks that we’re putting into the ground right now.”

    Uhhh, which homes get 1Gbps? Is Morrow saying we can get 1Gbps on FTTN? How is this possible when they are putting copper into the ground? The stuff that comes out of this guy’s mouth is the same stuff that comes out of his behind.

    “And as that technology evolves, it gets cheaper, it gets easier.”

    The same would have happened with FTTP until it was stopped partway through. Costs of rollout would likely decrease and rollout speed would have increased had the Liberals not messed with it. But unfortunately for us, it has been the opposite over the past 3 years.

    • i have seen far more lawns been destroyed for the cabinet and other works for FTTN than i have for the full fibre rollout. ive been in two FTTH suburbs so far and its been that way in both – very little trenching being done, and when it is it doesnt look like someone went apeshit with the backhoe like the FTTN ones ive seen.

      leaving aside HFC which isnt being “put in the ground right now” – its a legacy network, even if it MAY be, with quite a bit of money spent, able to deliver 1gbps – what tech are they putting in that can satisfy that claim? only the FTTP areas, which they have pretty much all wrapped up now. fttdp certainly isnt being “put in right now” and even then will miss that 1gbps mark. there really is no copper tech that can satisfy that claim, so i rate Morrows statement as 4 pinnochios. i agree, Morrow is talking out the wrong end.

    • @beema “Morrow believe that NBNCo won’t need more than the $29.5 billion committed by the Government”

      That is the extent the taxpayers will invest in MTM. After that MTM will raise funds via debt/loans.

    • Oh ok. I had it the other way around. Well good luck to them trying to raise the rest when they are using it to fund a network that uses old copper rather than new fibre.

        • Not only are you wrong, but copper is used in all Ethernet networking cables to routinely deliver speeds of 100 megabits per second or 1,000 megabits per second between devices on a local area network.

          The trials of FTTN for instance in Bundaberg are delivering substantial speed upgrades from ADSL, and everyone whose been lucky enough to gotten the upgrade so far is very happy. I’ve been reading the forums and monitoring this and I live in Bundaberg.

          So not only are you wrong but the people getting FTTN are very happy.

          I’m sure they would be happier with FTTP but we can’t afford that.

          • we certainly can afford it. https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2487380&p=69#r1367

            and as for GbE; for copper runs it has a specified length of 100m to yield that rate. for a distributed national network, using existing POTS copper to pillar runs (well in excess of 100m), untwisted pairs (losing all the signal benefits of ethernet cables) it is fair to say that reusing copper will never reach FTTH speeds.

            in this case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NG-PON2 – 40 gbps. you can get 10gbe copper, but again only 100 m line lengths and very high grade ethernet cable, the cost of which would make it punitive to use for a national rollout.

            it was a hyperbolic statement but in practicality he is correct – as australian network copper stands now there will be no FTTH speeds delivered over it. in a server to server patch run? sure, but not for the case we are discussing.

            maybe you can ask for Ethernet Cable On Demand?

          • aaricus, Sure copper can do 40 gigabits using shielded 4 pair Ethernet cables over 50 metres but NGPON2 can right now do 80 gigabits over 40 kms!

            So you tell me which is the most suitable tech for replacing the can?

          • aaricus says “Not only are you wrong, but copper is used in all Ethernet networking cables to routinely deliver speeds of 100 megabits per second or 1,000 megabits per second between devices on a local area network.”

            How many copper pairs needed to achieve those speeds? Hint: It’s more than all residential users have connected to their premises.

          • “I’m sure they would be happier with FTTP but we can’t afford that.”

            See you’re one of those people that see $29.5 billion and go: OMG that’s expensive or even $80b (if taking a supposed worst case).

            Nation building projects are expensive! (check our defence spending per year it might shock you also ;) ).

            This is a 20-25 year project (now … too many delays … sigh).
            For 1 person that’s a lot of $. For a country with our GDP dispersed over said time frame not so much.
            Taxpayers are investing … ie they will make a ‘profit’ over time due to returns from this GBE assuming LNP don’t completely screw the pooch and it manages to make a profit/return.

            Even Ethernet doesn’t hold custard to current NG PON 2 fibre standards (ie non laboratory stuff). If it did we wouldn’t be using fibre for backhaul now would we!

          • Sigh…
            @aaricus
            “Not only are you wrong, but copper is used in all Ethernet networking cables to routinely deliver speeds of 100 megabits per second or 1,000 megabits per second between devices on a local area network”

            Here’s a pop quiz…what is the longest those cables are allowed to be?
            Answer, 100m…

            Q2: What is the expected GDP increase for FTTP?
            A2: As much as $20 Billion/year or more (over 10 years that is $200 Billion)
            Kinda puts that “we can’t afford it” claim in perspective, eh?

            Q3: How long will the folks with FTTN stay happy?
            A3: According to all predictors, maybe another 3-5 years…and of course they will have to wait at least another 10 years after that for a FTTP rollout since most of the debt will have to be written off.
            So we lose the $56 Billion, spend 15 years receding into depression in the Global Economy because we don’t have the tools or infrastructure to compete.

            Summation, your children will either move away or really suffer…

          • Goodness aaricus, the context of the conversation was copper lead-ins, not the kind of twisted-pair you run through your walls or data centres. We are talking about the last-mile here, not once it is inside your house.

            These cables are typically 2 pair, of which only one is used. It has significantly poorer attenuation, cross-talk and external indifference performance compared to Cat5e/6/7 cable that you are referring to. The latter also uses up to four pairs, not just one. The OP is absolutely correct within the current context – Copper lead-in will never achieve the same bandwidths as a FTTH connection.

            Way to combine an ad hominem with a strawman attack though! Arguments devoid of logical fallacies make much more sense.

          • @aaricus:

            Excellent, so I just need to convince my wife to live in a data centre, and I too can experience high speed connections equivalent to FTTH. Sounds reasonable! Urgh…

        • @ aaricus
          that link is to a British Telecom Gfast advertisment, as if they would tell you anything else. The only reason Gfast is faster is because the optics are longer and the copper is shorter. An all optic fibre run by the above definition will always be faster than copper.

          BT is a holding company, Openreach is its retail outlet.

          Most of BT’s profits are generated by its Openreach subsidiary, which controls the UK’s ‘last mile’ copper infrastructure. Since 2005, BT have been accused of abusing their control of Openreach, particularly by UNDERINVESTING in the UK’s broadband infrastructure, charging high prices and providing poor customer service. The UK’s telecoms regulator Ofcom is currently investigating whether to order BT to sell Openreach, and is expected to report in January 2016.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Grou

        • He means Copper connected homes. As in the technology currently used in the CAN. He doesn’t mean Copper in General. You are clutching at straws.

          Heck if the CAN was Ethernet Standard, I doubt we would have an issue with its use.

          • Yes we would, because of line length. If there was CAT 6e/7/8 combined with FTTdp we wouldn’t have an issue, but even standard CAT3 copper is ok with FTTdp. Ethernet cable is not suitable for long runs, that’s what fibre is for. That’s what is used for data centre interconnects, for connecting remote buildings on the same campus, for connecting floors in multistorey CBD buildings, for mobile tower back haul… If it’s not a LAN, it’s connected with fibre. There is no argument with the facts and the science and the engineering or even the economics in the real world, it is only because this project has been politicised that so much misinformation has been injected into the subject, and you have armchair experts who read Ltd News and LNP astroturfers weighing in. But they can shout as much as they Ilike, it doesn’t change physical reality.

          • UG: Apologies, you are of course correct.
            What I guess I should have written was ethernet Speeds.

  17. Again – I find the MTM argument makes for a colorful side-show. Yes on a technology & future-proofing basis fibre is a superior option. Items from the MTM mix are not without benefits (happy FTTN user here) which I think get overlooked in the arguments.

    What I’m concerned about (and think the discussion should be more around) is the state of competition arising from the NBN. It was supposed to fix the state of fixed line competition on this country – instead it’s allowed for a rapidly shrinking marketplace and arguably less choice for customers (with Telstra having over 50% of the market share). If things continue on this path, we will have Telstra remaining as a monopoly provider and us (the taxpayer) footing the bill for a private companies network upgrade.

    If people want to get cranky about something I’d suggest picking that one.

    • This is true. With the field down to mostly Telstra, Optus and TPG, the last 15 years of painstaking development of competition never happened. People should be up in arms about it and organising activism. But we’re letting it happen.

      • The irony I enjoy – competition will have a bigger influence on faster speeds than the FTTH/MTM argument will. NBN today sells a 1G FTTH access product, who in the consumer ISP space is actually selling this?

        If you want innovation in the marketplace you need it to be competitive.

    • I certainly did at the time. I pointed out from April 2013 that the LNP’s plan was unrealistic and unworkable, I wrote a detailed analysis prior to the election demonstrating the flawed economics, how FTTN would cost more than FTTP to deploy, have less revenue, end up being a drain on the budget, allow fractured fibre networks that would undermine the NBN’s financial viability, leading to privatisation which would essentially be a gift of the NBN to Telstra for a fraction of its construction cost, entrenching their monopoly control for decades if not centuries. Allowing a company with a history like Telstra’s, of price gouging consumers and unfairly leveraging wholesale divisions to undercut retail competitors, of deploying cheap infrastructure to save costs but charging consumers the same (pair gain) while not being held to any reasonable minimum standards by the government, of slashing their maintenance teams and only fixing things once they have failed utterly instead of routine maintenance or at least addressing issues when a performance impact has been noticed, of providing absolutely no customer service at all until they’ve been taken to the TIO or court and forced to provide a remedy; allowing a company like this to claw its way back into being a key component of infrastructure supply and potentially the monopoly owner once the NBN’s financials catch up with it and the LNP have the excuse they need to offload it is utterly criminal, and importantly it is premeditated and planned, not the ‘unfortunate accident’ the LNP will try to spin it as.

      But back in 2013 Renai told me my ‘opinion’ was very much ‘on the fringe of thinking’ on the topic. So far everything I’ve predicted has been playing out, including the predicted fire sale, yet Renai is still yet to admit that this predictable outcome is where things are headed nor that it has been Malcolm’s plan all along. The media generally treat the subject as taboo. It has become a topic like climate change in the community generally.

      What is it we’re supposed to be doing to stop it? I voted LNP last at the last election and encouraged everyone I could to do the same. What do you suggest?

  18. You gotta be fuckin kidding me…

    So this whole time suggesting that a mix of technologies is the best way to go was just a masquerade so they could buy time to get into office, then claiming that not only the first upgrade to the network was their idea but also the second one (from the garbled mess to FTTP) was also their idea?

  19. No amount of technology enhancements is going to come close to ftth.. Who’s he kidding?

  20. So basically what he’s saying is that the FttP for 90% concept is such a threat to the MTM that he’s now trying to neutralise the issue before the election by ‘hinting’ it might be the future end point. Sad bit is it might work for some people.

    • Backflips were always on the Turnbull list of things to do to impress the riff-raff. The young libbos love it and mummsy and daddsy get the opportunity to give that sly wink a workout that oh so cements the blue-blooded family for ever and ever and ever through the dynasty(s).

      Oh, looky: the smirk is coming back in to fashion. Wait: no it’s not!!

      Bye Bye Malcolm!!!

  21. What is the point of FTTN then, if you are eventually going to install FTTP?

    Wasting billions by doing a reno instead of doing a knock down rebuild

    • It’s the new new new new new new new deal,… i mean- it’s new in the sense that it’s an old idea feebly employed in a new but obviously very cunning way to privatise profits from as many socialised means as possible before someone goes, “Oi, is this some kind of stick-up?”

      Wait: …nup, dunno!!

  22. umm there were trucks can’t find the reference at the moment that were using high pressure water jets to part the dirt to install the fibre so….

    For Multi Dwelling and similar they may have had to dig up some parts of driveways to connect FTTP due to blocked lead in pipes.

    For for grass/dirt they were using a truck that had a water jet/vacuum to cut through the soil with minimal disturbance.

    http://www.crn.com.au/News/247754,photos-nbn-co-trials-vacuum-trenching-in-kiama-downs.aspx

  23. I listened to the part where Morrow mentioned “fibre speeds” and “same place”.

    It’s clear to me that he was talking about fibre-equivalent speeds, arrived at by using technologies other than FTTP.

    FTTP seems to provoke some fear in our country’s conservative side of thinking.

    I haven’t seen any evidence of any future FTTP upgrade, and what the government and its representatives, or nbn and its representatives say is not evidence in and of itself.

    Morrow says we’ll end up in the same place. This is not evidence of an upgrade, because it is not consistent with what nbn is doing.

    Morrow said that the NBN would be finished in 2020, without mentioning any upgrade of any infrastructure. This is consistent with the evidence that nbn is completing the network as quickly and cheaply and bare minimally as possible. I.e. New copper, not seeming to care if you can’t get a signal from the local tower, dropping areas to congested satellite beams, etc.

    I haven’t seen any evidence of future fibre, and only a single-minded narrative about download speed and the Internet, both only small parts of the original vision.

    I’m not going to bother to link to anything. I’ve been following along since mid 2013, and if you want to see the evidence, go and look back over the last 6 years’ worth of information.

    • “FTTP seems to provoke some fear in our country’s conservative side of thinking.”

      Because a complete, ubiquitous solution such as FTTP is seen as socialist. Why should the taxpayer fund what the older conservatives still see as a luxury and what (they think) private enterprise can do in Australia? Never mind that it would be the best economic stimulus we have available at a time when the economy is on shaky ground indeed.

      They just don’t understand the benefits to the economy and the savings it would make from expenditure in transport, health care, education, etc. They also don’t have up-to-date knowledge of the alternative to the government NBN, which is the US model of telcos, or of the magnitude of the changes taking place worldwide that are necessitating putting something substantial in the ground now.

      Think of all the *companies* that would make billions in the presence of FTTP, in so many industries. But they are oblivious to this potential.

      • Martin H,

        Because a complete, ubiquitous solution such as FTTP is seen as socialist.

        I assume you mean a FTTP solution other than the Labor model, they fully intended to privatise their NBN FTTP infrastructure.

        • Wow another contradiction…

          You of course being one of the first to bag the original FTTP plan for being a “socialist monopoly”…

  24. I wonder if Turnbull’s knowledge and decision making (bloody-mindedness) was based on a FTTN sales pitch by by Alcatel-Lucent’s reps. That would be the only reasonable explanation. Because there is no other possible basis to shore up the ‘small government’ ideology.

    • I wonder if Turnbull’s knowledge and decision making (bloody-mindedness) was based on a FTTN sales pitch by by Alcatel-Lucent’s reps.

      Alcatel-Lucent sell FTTH gear the world over as well, not sure they are fussed one way or the other what equipment it is.

      :)

      • And another contradiction (well angle anyway).. normally it’s AL sell FTTN gear too you know…

        But hey, another day another tweak (if not a complete roll over) to suit the script, what’s new?

        You’re welcome.

  25. MTM (Malcolm Turnbull’s Mess) pretty much says it all. They have the reverse Midas touch. Everything the Liebrals touch, turns to sh!t.
    As has this Country.
    What to do. :(

  26. Morrow: FTTH would have caused “driveways to be dug up, a lot of gardens to be destroyed”.

    Yet, when the underground Foxtel cable was installed here they didn’t have to dig up the driveway or destroy the garden to install their box on the front of the house behind the garden bed. Perhaps they could place a call to Foxtel or Telstra and ask them how they did it.

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