news The NBN company appears to have slightly reworked a blog post it published yesterday defending the state of the copper network it is buying from Telstra, in effect removing its claim that it had not had to replace any copper to ensure the Coalition’s Fibre to the Node technology functioned correctly.
Earlier this week Shadow Communications Minister Jason Clare alleged that the NBN company was replacing “kilometres” of dilapidated Telstra copper cable with brand new copper to ensure the Fibre to the Node network being built by the NBN company would function correctly. In some areas of Newcastle and the Central Coast in NSW, Clare said, close to 90 percent of the copper pairs in the area needed remediation.
The NBN company has not responded to a formal request from Delimiter to address Clare’s comments.
However, in a post on the company’s blog today, NBN public affairs manager Tony Brown rejected the claims.
“So far, in our FTTN deployment we have not had to replace any copper – or perform any substantial remediation work – to the copper running from our street cabinets to end-user premises. All we have had to do so far is very basic work in removing bridge-taps – basically redundant copper lines – in order to optimise network performance.”
Following the publication of the article, however, the NBN company appears to have updated its blog post to substantially change the meaning of that paragraph. The paragraph now states:
“So far, in our FTTN deployment we have not had to replace any copper – or perform any substantial remediation work – to the copper running from our street cabinets to end-user premises with new fibre. All we have had to do so far is very basic work in removing bridge-taps – basically redundant copper lines – in order to optimise network performance.”
This addition has the effect of changing the meaning of the paragraph. The NBN company has essentially backed away from its claim that it has not replaced any copper cables and now only states that it has not replaced any copper cables with new fibre specifically.
The NBN company has left the following paragraph intact, however: “To date we have not had to replace substantial lengths of existing copper with new copper, what we have been doing is necessary work compressing copper at the street pillars (located next to our street cabinets) in order to enhance network performance.”
The news comes as the NBN company and Communications Minister Mitch Fifield appear determined to address what the pair have described as misconceptions about the FTTN technology being used as part of the Coalition’s Multi-Technology Mix vision.
FTTN is a popular technology used throughout Europe and other countries, with the UK in particular using the technology to upgrade the network of incumbent telco BT. Early results from the NBN’s trials of the technology have shown it will offer users a substantial upgrade over existing ADSL broadband connections.
However, in Australia a strong debate has arisen about whether the quality of Telstra’s copper network — which is many decades old — is up to the task.
The concept of replacing ageing copper with brand new copper — and not technically superior optic fibre as under Labor’s previous NBN plan — has sparked outrage in Australia’s technology community. There are also concerns that the model will leave Australia languishing in global broadband rankings and merely require a further upgrade to a full fibre model down the track.
In addition, there are critics of the technology in the UK. One of the UK’s foremost telecommunications experts, a former chief technology officer of British telco BT, has publicly stated that fibre to the node-style broadband is “one of the biggest mistakes humanity has made”, imposing huge bandwidth and unreliability problems on those who implement it.
“We’re in a particularly exciting phase of the project right now,” Fifield told the Communications Day Melbourne Congress earlier this week.
“The first commercial fibre-to-the-node services are just coming on-stream and I look forward to dispelling the myths around this technology in the months ahead as orders start flowing in.”
http://www.nbnco.com.au/blog/fact-fiction-and-fibre-to-the-node.html
Is not loading for me anymore :\
Never mind, I can access it from the wayback machine –
http://i.imgur.com/PnOtshn.png
Looks like they edited it a few times :\
Perhaps that blog is connected to one of those “substantial” sections they haven’t got to yet?
Works now. Some very creative wording (sorry, not sure how to properly quote here):
The reality is that even in our FTTN deployment we are already replacing the majority of copper running from the exchange to end-user premises. Yet the copper that runs from the street cabinet to the home is being left in place.
So far, in our FTTN deployment we have not had to replace any copper – or perform any substantial remediation work – to the copper running from our street cabinets to end-user premises with new fibre.
“However, in Australia a strong debate has arisen about whether the quality of Telstra’s copper network — which is many decades old — is up to the task.”
Yes. No. Not all copper is ancient; however we have used a thinner gauge (than the UK, whom had to replace large amounts post WW2) and as such it’s going to deteriorate/ degrade faster.
NBNco will have to remediate a portion of the network to ensure it meets minimum deployment class requirements. They are not going to just toss in fibre as a replacement; so remediation will be ongoing for a percentage of the lines.
It might seem insane, but this is what NBNco has been politicised to do. Make FTTN happen.
Not that but the thinner grave causes more attenuation which then reduced speed
But Australian copper is magic, in almost every trial case they are getting speeds greater than people on thicker gauge copper are getting overseas. Either that or they are running new copper for the trials, something that I have never seen NBNCo explicitly deny, and several people reported happening in the trial areas. Nah, they wouldn’t so that, it must just be magic copper.
And even then required 4 tech visits to get working properly.
Yes, I saw that post. One more thing that isn’t mentioned. When he says how long it takes to download something now compared to his old connection, do the maths. He is only getting 15Mb. They report the headline sync speed, but actual performance was crap. They will say that must be the ISP, that it’s beyond their control, etc, etc. Or it could be, just like ADSL2, if you push sync really hard you get lots of errors and retrying and end up with throughput way below your sync speed.
But don’t you see, that’s the beauty of FttN.
GimpCo can blame the ISP, the ISP can blame the network.
Wasn’t the distance for the first “test” only 50 meters or so?
If they wanted an actual real worl test, they would have had much longer runs (800-1500 meters) , but then they wouldn’t have been able to spin it favourably at all, so we just got the marketing version…
The longest run “trial” speed I saw was 430m and got 96Mb, beyond theoretical maximum, but with magic copper physics doesn’t apply
Indeed even though the owners (Telstra at a Senate enquiry – so we’ll just lie, no big deal) told us it was err fkd in 2003 and needed replacing… it’s nonetheless tip top 12 years later…
Thankfully, the internet never forgets, so they can edit blog posts to their hearts content but the Wayback Machine will forever remember (unless someone ‘smart’ enough at NBNCo – I use that term very loosely) to make it so that the Wayback Machine can no longer do its job…
Well, they kind of have stopped the NBN from doing its job…… :)
“we have not had to replace any copper – or perform any substantial remediation work – to the copper running from our street cabinets to end-user premises with new fibre”
That is so badly written. He could be say that they haven’t remediated any copper to houses that have fibre running to them. Well, I’d hope not. Or that they haven’t replaced any copper with fibre. Either way, it has nothing to do with replacing copper with copper. All I can see from the change is that being able to say they aren’t replacing copper with copper is not possible so some qualification has been added, though the qualification makes little sense.
Agreed, It makes no sense at all.
Cutting out the hyphenated addendum (indicated with //) makes even less sense.
“we have not had to replace any copper // to the copper running from our street cabinets to end-user premises with new fibre”
Technically correct.
As everything being done so far has been part of a ‘trial’ and no FTTN roll out has actually started, this is a factually correct media release.
Probably will still be correct in 12 months as well, as the current 10’000 node rollout is still a ‘trial’.
NBN senate committee just needs to ask how much copper cabling has been bought by NBN.
All of it?
NBNco has effectively acquired the last mile portion of the ‘CAN’ as part of it’s deal with Telstra. This isn’t news. It was part of the deal struck to enable FTTN as a deployment technology.
Pretty sure Simon M wasn’t talking about the copper already in the ground.
If NBNco are laying new copper, they had to get the new copper from somewhere.
Wow, do you attend the Senate committee on behalf of NBN Co, that’s the type of answers they give to avoid the point on anything they are asked.
I assume Simon means they need to ask how much new copper cabling they are buying from suppliers.
Yes. Either is plausible. It was a very generic comment.
Asking NBNco how much copper they bought to remediate the network, however, doesn’t make that much sense given they aren’t just going to buy a small batch for here-and-there.
If it was to cover now, and into n years into the future, then it’s a bit meaningless.
This is a great example of PM Turnbull’s ‘not’ transparency regarding NBNCo, though I suspect it is not intentional. It simply shows that neither he nor NBNCo can be trusted.
It’s also worth noting that there is no mention of the edit being made nor an explanation. Rewriting history? George Orwell?
Yet another fail by NBNCo and the media dept.
Impending shitstorm on the twitterverse now
https://twitter.com/_markagregory/status/654822718223728640
I knew I had those five bags of popcorn for a reason :-)
I did ask for at least one, piggy…LOL
If you combine two cables to make one, to free up a port, what do you do with the free port?
Drink it?
Has any new copper been laid/placed/pulled in part or in full from the cabinet to the premise on the copper Network for FTTN trials, pilots or any other form of FTTN rollouts? Where new copper could be brand new, nearly new, 2nd hand or already used copper?
Just don’t use the word “replace” in questions to NBNCo on whether “new or 2nd hand” copper has been used. Too many word games can be played by using the word replace.
One needs all the skills of a Turnbulllike prosecution or defence lawyer to get to the bottom of the copper conditions issues.
I don’t like that nbnco is supposed to be an independent company yet ever article they write is completely bias to the liberal party.
One could be somewhat politically incorrect and suggest a conspiracy theory that Mr. Morrow is the fourth long lost amigo and therefore all of this then makes sense ;)
Can anyone tell me that if we are supplied our NBN via FTTN, do we still have to pay for a land line (as we do for our phone now) that making sure Telstrs and other retailers are still getting their $30 odd dollars for using the copper. My son,who has NBN at his home ie. FTTP means he gets direct NBN thus no payment for the line
There is always a fee for using someone’s link, for ISPs reselling Telstra ADSL, the carrier has to pay for an OSI Layer 2 service from the customer to the ISP hand off with Telstra.
For a ISPs using their own DSLAM, it’s a OSI Layer 1 Line rental from Telstra.
For NBN, FTTN or FTTP, there is a OSI Layer 2 link provided from the NBN OTD and the RSPs hand off from NBN, you are always paying for a link from the Carrier supplying the end link to the customer, this doesn’t change.
If your talking about having to have a phone, that will be carrier dependant but it’s only necessary now if your running off a Telstra DSLAM, most carriers offer Naked ADSL2+ now, which means no phone, no dial tone, but you are still pay Telstra a fee for use and maintenance of the line
I would also be interested in how the line works Graham.
Do we need to pay line rental as well as monthly fees as with ADSL and can the line even be used as a standard telephone line?
I would be very disappointed if we still need to pay the extra charge above ISP fees where it’s not the case for FTTP users.
I am currently paying for a phone line which I haven’t had a telephone plugged in since I started getting calls from 60 minutes a few years ago.
Apparently the politically motivated blog post has been modified again.
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