opinion Everyone feverishly slamming early National Broadband Network pricing plans needs to sit the hell down, take a chill pill and stop engaging in an orgy of self-congratulatory rage over pricing which is actually very reasonable and wholly expected when you remove your head from the media hype machine and examine it in detail.
To say that there is a huge amount of misleading spin and damaging misinformation being put forth by a number of high-profile media outlets and politicians at the moment regarding NBN pricing is a collossal understatement.
Take this article from the Sydney Morning Herald as an example. When putting this story together, the authors had a number of headline choices. They could have gone with ‘Internode unveils NBN pricing’, which is what we chose for Delimiter’s story, and actually the truth. They could have gone with ‘NBN pricing starts at $59.95 a month’, or ‘NBN pricing revealed: From $59.95 to $189.95 a month’.
They could even have gone with — as someone else, presumably another editor, actually did go with in a different section of the exact same SMH site — “Broadband users to pay comparable prices”.
But to scream “NBN retail price revealed: up to $189.95/month” — effectively using the Sydney Morning Herald’s collossal media platform to make $189.95 a month the banner NBN pricing figure and imply that customers would be paying that to access the National Broadband Network — is irresponsible. The simple fact is that Internode is offering another 15 plans, most of which cost under $100 a month.
Now, you might say that this is just one isolated story and it hasn’t had that much of an impact on the national broadband debate. But senior politicians have already taken up the Sydney Morning Herald’s line and are running with it.
“This is a Government which is spending upwards of $50 billion to give Australians a service that they can’t afford,” Opposition Leader Tony Abbott told journalists at a doorstop in Tasmania yesterday. “How many Australians could afford $190 a month for a broadband service that they’re currently getting for about $30 a month? It’s just bad policy and it’s typical of a Government which spends billions and billions without thinking it through first.”
“The more we learn about the National Broadband Network, the more of a dud deal it seems.”
So now we have one of Australia’s largest media outlets coupled with one of the nation’s foremost politicians, bringing the ‘$190 a month’ NBN pricing figure into the public debate as if it has some form of legitimacy, instead of representing the absolute extreme end of the first early stage NBN pricing plans released by one provider.
Other media outlets and politicians instantly started dancing to the same tune.
Despite the fact that the network has only just started to deliver to a handful of customers, the ACCC is reportedly planning to investigate NBN pricing policy. Outlets like the Herald Sun are saying NBN prices are “higher than promised” and consumer groups such as Australian Communications Consumer Action Network have started raising questions about NBN “affordability”.
Not to be left out on an issue on which he has been so vocal recently, Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull added his voice to the cacophony, claiming Internode’s prices undercut the argument for the NBN as a whole — as well as the credibility of Communications Minister Stephen Conroy himself. “These serious gaps in the NBN business model will prove costly to taxpayers and more importantly, to internet users who may not be able to afford the hikes,” the Liberal MP said, comparing NBN Co’s projected pricing to Internode’s reality.
Now all of this sound and fury resulting from one little Internode press release has been quite glorious to behold. Rage, rage, burn and rage; of course the media (including Delimiter) loves a controversy and piling in on the NBN policy, WWF-style, seems to have become one of Australia’s favourite sports since the policy was first mooted in late 2007.
But as with so many tornadoes of media and political rage which tear through Australia’s national debate, the criticism currently being raised about NBN pricing unfortunately signifies nothing. Let’s step back a little and take a look at the reality of the NBN pricing situation.
As some wiser heads have been pointing out this week, nobody would every describe Internode’s broadband prices as ‘cheap’. On the scale of ISPs, the ‘node has always been a relatively premium provider; charging nerds in the know a little bit extra for quality customer service and a solid network. And, for the most part, Australia’s middle class has been more than happy to fork out for it.
To find out what the bottom level of the market will be, you need to go to providers like TPG and Dodo, who have already made a killing in Australia by undercutting the likes of Internode and iiNet, as Internode and iiNet themselves have made a killing by undercutting Telstra and Optus.
In Australia’s broadband jungle, Internode is the equivalent of a the equivalent of a gazelle; fast, with a decent amount of meat on it and catchable by the wise hunter. But nobody would ever accuse the company of competing on price; for a fat juicy warthog of quota that can’t run away you’ll need to sign up with a rival provider. Of course, you may feel queasy after dealing with a customer service team in Manila; but stuffing yourself with bacon has never been the best option for your health.
Cashing in on the ‘high price’ hype generated by Internode, ISPs like Dodo have already started announcing cut-rate plans less than $40.
Then there’s the fact that much of Internode’s NBN pricing is directly comparable to its existing ADSL broadband pricing. A connection with speeds of up to 25Mbps and 30GB of quota, with a telephone line bundled, will cost you $59.90 on ADSL and $69.95 on the NBN. For the same service with 200GB of quota you’ll pay $79.90 on ADSL and $89.95 on the NBN.
Wow. What a massive price differential! $10 more per month, for a broadband service with better speeds, better latency, better reliability and the ability to instantly churn to a different ISP without waiting weeks for your connection to be switched over. Sounds like a bargain.
Sure, you’ll pay a little extra if you want faster speeds. But that extra is again very minimal — it seems like if you add $10 onto any of Internode’s NBN plans, you’ll go up a speed tier — from 12Mbps to 25Mbps and from 25Mbps to 50Mbps. You’ll pay a little more if you want to go to 100Mbps speeds, but we’re betting most people won’t need those speeds initially — and by the time they do, in a few years, the market will have gradually pushed prices down quite a bit.
Will Australia’s vast and affluent middle class be happy to pay a little extra on the NBN to get up to 50Mbps speeds with a decent download quota? Absolutely they will. We’re a nation which heartily upgrades our smartphones and laptops every year or so, has spent the last year purchasing hundreds of thousands of iPads and considers a regular holiday to Thailand a normal event. Internode’s prices are moderate — but even then we’ll have no problem affording them. For those who can’t, there will be options as well.
We’re actually betting that as Australia becomes more familiar with broadband and bolt-on services like IPTV become popular, the nation will spend *more*, not less, on telecommunications. After all, this has been the trend over the past several decades … we started with basic telephone lines, then added dial-up Internet and mobile phones. Now everyone pays quite a bit for broadband every month, as well as smartphone plans that include data and even separate plans for our tablets.
Now normally we find it hard to agree with Communications Minister Stephen Conroy on most things. With a penchant for putting his foot in his mouth and a habit of espousing draconian Internet censorship schemes in Australia, Conroy isn’t our favourite person. But on the issue of NBN pricing this week, we find ourselves in complete lockstep agreement with the good senator.
“There are many companies yet to put their pricing in and we expect to see robust competition taking place which will see consumers better off because of NBN, as pricing becomes more and more competitive,” Conroy told the ABC’s AM program this week.
Word.
In short, this is a market in transition, and the complete picture is not clear yet. So sit down, shut up and get your credit card out. You’ll need it when the NBN fibre is rolled out to your neighbourhood and you suddenly find you can choose between vast numbers of decently priced NBN plans. Assuming any different is going to be an exercise in pointless rage — and Australia’s collective blood pressure is already high enough.
Image credit: Jenny Rollo, royalty free
Amen, brother.
Wow, Renai is looking very shaken up in his lame attempt to defend the NBN reality as slowly comes into the light. Lets recap, renai makes no mention of the ACCC announcement to investigate pricing, and actually scapes the bottom of the barrel and invokes the good name of Dodo, just to speculate that pricing will be cheaper than has been revealed.
Your a fool renai, you have no concept of what the vast majority of people want or can afford.
Your are so lustful for you silly fibre you dont care what the cost, $50 Billion, $100 Billion, whatever.
Well Renai…
Perhaps you should ban me and leave Delimiter to the likes of Reality Check here (and his FUD clones) …???
Now where are al those who were screaming dirty politics and lies, in relations to Gillard’s rip up the fibre claim (which does indeed appear to have been BS) to also accuse Abbott of the same…
Looks as though the old one rule for us another rule for them shines through again…!
Again they are all politicians and they all BS, none is better than the other, they simply have differing ideologies… let’s judge the NBN on its merits or otherwise, not who YOU vote for!
It will all come down to the unmetered bundled services anyway.
Now….i’m waiting in anticipation to hear from the anti-Labor, anti-NBN attack dogs. I am not a fan of any major party, but i am a fan of good policies. Unlike the blinded greedy one eyed who will stop at nothing to support their interests.
“Salami Chujillo” lol
lol’d :)
I have nothing much else to say on this topic that I haven’t already said but it’s funny to see that the anti-NBN crusaders screaming like a bunch of howler monkeys at this $190 plan… I like the pic btw :-)
Hehe cheers. Yeah, I don’t know how I found that pic, but couldn’t resist using it :)
Great article, but you missed one thing. The average ADSL2+ speed is 12Mbps or less, so the comparable NBN plans are the 12/1 plans. Which are the exact same price as the Nodeline bundles.
Another thing many don’t know is DSL technologies have overheads that are around 20% meaning a 12Mbps NBN connection will more than likely blast a 15Mbps DSL connection out of the water entirely throughput alone, let alone taking into account things like 10-30x lower firsthop latency and dropouts will be practically unheard of.
Oh and another thing, NBNco are over-provisioning services so users get a little more than what they pay for, mainly to end the ‘but I have 10Mbps and only get 9.8Mbps!!’ crys that might happen.
I have seen 100Mb services burst to 106Mbps, 50Mb burst to 55Mb, and 25Mb burst to 28Mb
I don’t know if a 12/1 will have be over-provisioned at all, but if it is, bursting to 15Mbps may be on the cards, and a 15Mbps NBN connection will match a 18Mbps DSL connection for performance, that’s probably going to mean even shifting to a 12/1 service will provide better speeds for upwards of 75% of the guys on DSL, given the average sync speed ranges from 8 to 10 Mbps depending on what ISP you are with.
Oh and another thing, NBNco are over-provisioning services so users get a little more than what they pay for
Are you sure the over-provisioning isn’t just to add the size of the VLAN tags and whatever else NBNCo is putting over the top so it isn’t counted as part of the customer payload?
That’s pretty standard practice done by a wholesale carrier providing a service to a retail carrier.
Interesting, Cheers Gav.
Gav, ok, following on to what I posted above. I’ve been reading through a lot of provisioning documentation with regards to the NBN, and nothing says what you are saying. Nothing is talking about NBN over provisioning, etc.
Everything from a backend perspective is exactly the same as it is now (albeit the NBN will ethernet and not ATM/FR/etc). Also note in order for the end customer to experience this apparent extra speed (assuming it even exists) the retail carrier would also need to impose this same over provisioning on their networks.
Where did you get this information from?
excellent rebuttal.
People are reporting the speeds I claimed on WP, Bob of Midway Point for example is the person I’m quoting on a 100Mbit/s service who has managed on several occasions 104, 105, 106 etc. Mbps. Take a look at the ‘I’m on the NBN’ thread.
I’m sure all the FUDsters will claim heresay.. and probably with some justification! But frankly, their FUD is as believable as the original speed claims so…
ahh ok, I’d say that’s more to do with not many people contenting for bandwidth (so for the moment getting the equivalent of 1:1 contention ratio) then over provisioning. The fact that people are reporting greater throughput then their subscribed bandwidth is probably just a miscalculation by the test site they are using.
I was pretty sure the source was something like WP since NBN Co haven’t reported it officially.
It’s not DSL overheads, it’s PPPoA/PPPoE, TCP header, IP header, etc, and these will still be applicable under the NBN.
As for lower first hop latency, as you’re no doubt aware from the exchange back all services are fibre right now, so the only change will be on the last mile from copper to fiber. The decrease in latency to first hop will be negligible and really it will come down to how the physical topology has changed (ie. the distance to the first router that will respond to a ping could be geographically further).
another excellent response.
Why do you think simply switching from a interleaved profile to non-interleaved profile can shave up to 10ms off firsthop latency then?
I can see the CBD from my window, the latency introduced from the fiber is <1ms, yet I get between 10 and 20ms depending on how noisy my line is.
Everyone on the NBN so far is reporting 1-5ms firsthop latency, the guys at the higher end living in places like Armidale and the first hop belonging in Sydney.
DSL, as a technology, introduces alot of firsthop latency.
One day is all it took for the NBN pricing hysteria to be exposed as ridiculous. On the SMH web site now is an article: “Discounts begin: entry-level option drops below $40”.
It’s not all unfounded ‘hysteria’ though.
“THE competition watchdog is to launch a public inquiry into how NBN Co charges internet providers for access to the government’s $36 billion National Broadband Network,”
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/nbn-co-prices-prompt-inquiry/story-fn59niix-1226100091447
“Price jolt on NBN access”
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/price-jolt-on-nbn-access-20110721-1hqyp.html
“The prospect of the Coalition taking charge of Australia’s broadband future is now less of a concern for iiNet chief, Michael Malone.”
http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/394647/iinet_chief_less_fearful_coalition_nbn_plans/
oops, how did that last one get in there. :)
Hey Alain, how about THESE Apples:
http://www.exetel.com.au/residential-fibre-pricing-mainland.php
Exetel have ninjaed out their prices for the Mainland. VERY cheap as compared to today.
Stick that in your Coalition pipe and smoke it, bitch.
This is what the CEO of Exetel said about his NBN pricing.
*Because the monthly port cost of the lowest speed fibre service and the ‘backhaul/CVC’ cost is higher than even Telstra Wholesale charge for an ADSL2 service … and is almost double the cost of an Optus ADSL2 service … and that the fibre cost is going to get much higher once the ‘trial phases’This is what the CEO of Exetel said about his NBN pricing.”
http://delimiter.com.au/2011/07/25/undercutting-internode-exetel-reveals-nbn-prices/
Well said Renai!
Cheers!
The mass hysteria by the media and politicians against the NBN is ridiculous. And sadly the Australian public needs to get their heads out of their collective asses and stop listening to these idiots and make their own minds up.
They probably will if the polling trend continues, Labor will be rolled in 2013, and Dodo NBN pricing won’t save them.
Ah the true reasoning for the endless FUD and LIES there for all to see again…eh alain (Mr before roads there were no roads) …?
Look let’s face it, as far as you are concerned the NBN = **it because that’s what the party tells you you must say and being a most accepting little sheep you conform… good boy…!
Im not sure how you can call this mass hysteria
The whole NBN debacle is hysterical, and if you think that raising an issue in such a toxic political landscape
In any case, your qualm and comparison for internode falls short for two reasons
1. Hackett said otherwise (and he is the head of internode)
2. Internode just raised prises at the same time when offering NBN plans, most likely as a result of trying to average everything out across their tiered plan base
I agree deteego… it’s not mass hysteria… well after all there’s normally 4 of you usual suspect, FUDsters at these threads, here there’s only one!
And please refer to my first comment, you as one who criticised Gillard for her stretching the truth, I find it typically pathetic that you refuse to hold your exalted hero Tony to the same level of accountability…!
They both stretched the truth, one is no more honest than the other, imo. But then Im not a sheep…!
Amen. I refused a TV spot with a leading commercial station’s “light entertainment/news” program on Friday, as they were trying to confect an indignant piece about pricing. They were actually asking me to manufacture answers directly critical of NBN.
It’s early days. Much is yet to happen. And the pricing is more or less on par.
All the whiners ought to extract head from hype machine.
.” They were actually asking me to manufacture answers directly critical of NBN”
Why?, can’t you think of anything critical unless it is ‘manufactured’ (whatever that means), you could have discussed the upcoming ACCC inquiry or Hacketts comments on NBN modelling that accompanied his companies NBN pricing release.
Give him a few pointers on how to manufacture pessimistic, politically motivated, BS alain… you do it 24/7..
Maybe throw in a few mandatory contradictions, some Telstra fanboi/employee/shareholder comments and of course the always childish questions, as you do too!
And don’t forget to let him know that if he is down and out and totally out debated, he can always just say I won’t correspond with you anymore and just pretend the whole ego busting exercise never occurred and move on to easier targets…LOL!
I use 3G for cheapness, 1 GB for about $10. My phone calls were about 5 per month so Iv’e moved to Mobile $10 per 3 months, But my bandwidth for whatever reason can sometimes slowdown to 2 kb/ps
only good for reading Delimiter and other media and collecting email. I would rather go with a land line.
The NBN proimises something better for the big users, I hope in doing so the backload could be opened up so the little users like myself can recieve something better than a saline drip feed.
And then I am worried about not having electrical power in a blackout and not being able to communicate at all. But I still believe Australia needs an NBN, even if it began with exchange to echange fibre first to speed up roll out. My Mobile carrier is a new brand on the block and performance is much like the others but is much cheaper, this is what I expect after the NBN gets to about 75%.
THE NBN is an investment, the dividend is the actual benifits of usage of high speed internet, I think the Goverment should build and run the NBN as a resource, i.e not for profit, but provides for maintenance, administration and future refurbishment and expansion. pay for it over 50 years if required. John Howard stated re Telstra that the his government cound not mamage resources, Now labbour has its turn and still cannot tell the different between a resource and a for profit company. The commercial telcos have already stated they will never provide a service, they only want to go where there is a profit. Building a resource is providing a service to the public, Building a mechanism for profit, holds everyone hostage to the commercial enterprise that does so.
I tell you what let’s expand on that idea, seeing the taxpayer is paying for your resource and you feel it should be a ‘not for profit’ resource, how about the NBN Co retails that resource back to the taxpayers as NBN ISP Plans at cost?
Well expand upon it then… Tell us your complete plan…!
Actually I agree. A connection to the NBN should be free, and we should be able to receive multicast traffic for free. There should be a charge to transmit data onto the NBN, and I pay a lot more to multicast. And we should be able to purchase terabytes for pennies. It is then up to me what I choose to do with the NBN. If I just want to connect my home network to my friends up the road I should be able to do that relatively cheaply without requiring “Internet” access. Much like the days of dial up when I was free to use the telecom network as I wanted, so long as I was prepared to pay! If I’m a net startup, I purchase what I need to do what I want on the network. If I am a media mogul I purchase broadcasting capabilities, and pay rightly for the privilege. Internode is just another content provider, actually let’s face it, they provide nothing more than middleman does, that is nothing more than a connection to an overseas pipe service, who I should be able to purchase directly from, and no doubt at a far cheaper price. Seems that the NBN is nothing more than the existing captive model designed to ensure the survival of ISPs and we are just consumers, because we have put people in charge who are from the very same industry. I can only imaging how our cars would be today had we put the horse and cart people in charge of it’s future.
*THE NBN is an investment,*
this opening statement contradicts everything you say afterwards which sounds more like a resource-wasting, market-distorting subsidy
*pay for it over 50 years if required.*
the way to pay for a fibre network over 50 years is to build FTTN, slowly pay it off, then extend the fibre to the tail circuit. that way, the network slowly pays for itself as users gradually upgrade over 50 years.
*The commercial telcos have already stated they will never provide a service, they only want to go where there is a profit.*
same reason why the Fed/State Govt doesn’t build subways, tram networks or international airports in the outback. no diff.
I’m a bit slow to reply,
You are still in the wrong frame of mind, probably born yesterday and don’t have the experience of the old PMG managing communications. We supposedly improved the situation with “Telecom”, the government cash cowed it till it was on it’s knees, then turned it into a quasi-entity as TELSTRA.
Which every body grumbled about as a monopoly. it wasn’t just a gridmanager.
So let me spell it out for you.
A Grid manager such as NBN co should be under the above circumstances, would gather funds for “Administration, Maintenance, Refurbishment and Expansion.” it charges fees for income to support this. The private sector then rents lines by quantity and possibly gets quantity discounts and provides product to customers with value added content along the way. basic business model happens already.
They get a good deal or go else where to another product over the same grid.
The Infrastructure is paid for by the people as it is the resource, that is maintained, every wrongly wants their money back and their resource infrastructure cake too. That would be the magic puddin’ that Peter Costello joked about, Go ask him for it.
that’s what you want. but that’s not how Labor’s NBN or NBNco works. nothing could be further from the truth. and no political party would implement your “vision”. because the fact is for the Government, there are PLENTY of competing projects for $50bln, and fibre to whoop whoop will never stand the test of any rational cost-benefit analysis for intelligent use of money.
That’s basically a flat out lie. Over and over again you lie, and I simply don’t understand why you do it. There is not a single infrastructure project out there that demands $50 billion and can deliver a guaranteed return on the money other than the NBN. The NBN requires absolutely no investment from taxpayers. It’s funded entirely through bonds and loaned money. Payoff is in the form of network subscription. Instead of going to Telstra it goes directly into the network.
The only reason you don’t like this is because you’re a Telstra shareholder. You’d rather profit at the expense of every other Australian out there. I also suspect you’re extremely wary of change of any form. There have been numerous social experiments done that demonstrate people of your type significantly detract from the quality of life of everyone else.
“The end justifies the mean” defines your thought process. It’s kind of pathetic, and intensely primitive.
*That’s basically a flat out lie. Over and over again you lie, and I simply don’t understand why you do it.*
put simply, you have zero understand of business or economics. you should address your ignorance in these matters instead of resorting to personal attacks (troll, liar, etc).
*There is not a single infrastructure project out there that demands $50 billion and can deliver a guaranteed return on the money other than the NBN.*
you think there’s just $50bln of savings out there just lying fallow? spending $50bln on the NBN will divert resources from other competing uses. since when does the NBN deliver a “guaranteed return”? sure, some level of revenue is “guaranteed”. however, “return” is revenue minus expenses. given the massive capitalised costs of building the NBN and the “below cost charging” to ease the copper-to-fibre migration, the NBN is most likely to make a NEGATIVE return.
*The NBN requires absolutely no investment from taxpayers. It’s funded entirely through bonds and loaned money. Payoff is in the form of network subscription. Instead of going to Telstra it goes directly into the network.*
the government’s equity stake in NBNco is similar to some pension fund’s equity stake in Telstra. if the investment goes bad (as it most likely will), taxpayer will LOSE MONEY by having to pay higher taxes.
*The only reason you don’t like this is because you’re a Telstra shareholder.*
you’ve seen my investment portfolio? do i even have an equity portfolio? you just like making sh!t up?
*You’d rather profit at the expense of every other Australian out there.*
ad hominem
*I also suspect you’re extremely wary of change of any form.*
ad hominem
*There have been numerous social experiments done that demonstrate people of your type significantly detract from the quality of life of everyone else.*
egregious trolling
*“The end justifies the mean” defines your thought process. It’s kind of pathetic, and intensely primitive.*
ad hominem (i have no idea where you’re going with that one.)
the difference between me and you is i don’t go crying to a mod every time someone disagrees with me.
You are kidding…
Seriously, you said previously I never scream troll and 24 hours later screamed troll… ffs, does your hypocrisy have no end, hypocrite…!
broadband won’t get any cheaper under the NBN. NBNco has basically picked Bigpond or Telstra Wholesale pricing as the starting point. after handing $11bln to Telstra to shutdown their wholesale network, they’re definitely not going to make it any cheaper for them to access the new fibre network at the wholesale level to sell retail products.
most exchanges are already linked with fibre backhaul.
When the pricing from one ISP is higher than expected which causes controversy and I wouldn’t label it anywhere near to being hysteria, Internodes recent ADSL changes BEFORE the NBN release caused more hysteria and it’s still on going, but hey a headline grabber is a headline grabber, there is uproar from the pro-NBN lobby (and that’s what I call hysteria, but that’s a better sort of hysteria of course) and the cry is loud ‘let’s see what the other ISP’s can do before making judgement’.
Dodo and other small ISP’s undercut Internode (wow who would have ever thought!) and of all sudden bingo! everything is ok in the NBN world again and it’s all justified and we can all relax that the good ship NBN Co and Conroy is steering the true path of righteousness again selling into the two and dog number of residences that can actually use the NBN in the limited release areas.
Also the blog from Hackett that accompanied his price release is ignored in the manic zeal to paint a rosy picture.
How about we wait until the big two BigPond and Optus have taken the NBN onboard and wait until the shareholders the ACCC and Parliament have ratified the Telstra deal on which the whole NBN viability hinges.
Wait for BigPond and Optus to release their NBN pricing after all they hold the vast majority of the retail BB and telephony market between them and the forced migrations take place from shut down Telstra exchange areas and also HFC before patting yourselves on the back simply because the cut price ISP’s Dodo and Exetel etc have undercut Internode.
How about we wait until the big two BigPond and Optus have taken the NBN onboard and wait until the shareholders the ACCC and Parliament have ratified the Telstra deal on which the whole NBN viability hinges.
Please? Can we do that?
i can’t believe we’re spending $50bln on the NBN only to have to resort to Dodo Internet for “affordability salvation”. is that the best we can do? LOL
basically, this transition affects mid-tier premium providers like Optus, iiNet and Internode most. by removing their cost savings from competing DSLAMs which allows them to bypass the AVGC/CVC toll, we’re destroying an entire segment of the market that provides a network better in quality than Dodo at prices below Bigpond.
will be interesting to see whether their prices converge closer to Bigpond or if they just turn into rubbish networks like Dodo. Internode has already taken a giant step closer towards Bigpond. not quite there yet, but they’re talking about further price rises.
You’re not spending anything. Stop being such a pathological liar. The NBN is paid entirely through subscriber revenue. With prices nearly identical to current Australian market prices, it’s completely disingenuous to claim taxpayers are “footing the bill”.
*You’re not spending anything.*
go read the Federal Budget – there was a multi-billion dollar allocation to NBNco. you think NBNco is building the test sites with monopoly money (no pun intended)?
*With prices nearly identical to current Australian market prices, it’s completely disingenuous to claim taxpayers are “footing the bill”.*
exactly, with below-cost charging, this thing will end-up belly-up and cost Aussie taxpayers a fortune. why does a Yank like you care anyway?
Why are people under the misconception that prices will go down? Wholesale prices are set, ROI for NBNco calculated, and so NO MORE PRICE CUTS CAN TAKE PLACE. The prices have no shifting ability, except for when less than 85% of people take up the NBN, in which case, prices will merely go up.
Wholesale NBN prices are only to the POI, the more customers connecting to a POI the cheaper it will be for a retail carrier to provide the backend connection to that POI.
So the more customers an ISP has the cheaper overall it will be for them to provide each total connection.
So on that basis BigPond and Optus should be able to undercut them all.
:)
Theoretically yes, so this is where value added services, etc, comes into play.
Actually this user per POI connection connection costs is what Simon Hackett was talking about when he was saying smaller ISPs won’t be able to compete due to the larger number of POIs.
*Actually this user per POI connection connection costs is what Simon Hackett was talking about when he was saying smaller ISPs won’t be able to compete due to the larger number of POIs.*
in terms of backhaul, Internode’s regional customers are probably on Telstra Wholesale DSLAMs which come with Telstra backhaul. post-NBN, Internode will have to purchase their own regional backhaul. that costs more than backhaul to the major capital city exchanges, so it’s hard to maintain uniform retail pricing.
so they want NBNco to give them “free regional backhaul” by reducing POIs to 14 or 7 in capital cities while not increasing CVC charges despite higher backhaul costs for NBNco. LOL. everybody loves a govt business subsidy.
Yes this is the wonderful [sic] competition we currently have..
All roads lead to Telstra…!
*Wholesale NBN prices are only to the POI, the more customers connecting to a POI the cheaper it will be for a retail carrier to provide the backend connection to that POI.*
basically, you have two tolls: one on the access network and one on the backhaul.
before NBN:
1/ copper tail has zero toll
2/ the major exchanges are already serviced by competitive backhaul with toll at $2-3/Mbit (or higher, but nothing like $20/Mbit)
3/ most ISPs offering cheap prices primarily service these major exchanges
after NBN
1/ fibre tail has $20/Mbit toll
2/ a national providers like Telstra or small ISP utilising wholesale aggregators may be forced to cross-subsidise expensive, regional backhaul
net result: more expensive overall
I think you missed what I was saying.
What I was referring to was the cost of providing the connection on the other, ie. non-NBN, side of the POI, because that still needs to be backhauled to somewhere depending on what the service is being used for.
Also note when it comes to the NBN, multiple access (AVC) will be built into a larger backhaul (CVC), if it isn’t done this way contention ratios won’t work properly, you can’t treat them as 2 different payments for each individual service.
*What I was referring to was the cost of providing the connection on the other, ie. non-NBN, side of the POI, because that still needs to be backhauled to somewhere depending on what the service is being used for.*
yea, but a $20/Mbit toll offsets whatever savings you can get from pushing $2-3/Mbit backhaul toll to $0/Mbit.
of course, for Bigpond and TW customers, it won’t make a difference because the AVGC is similar to CVC. it primarily impacts the mid-tier premium providers like Internode which is why they’re complaining so much.
*you can’t treat them as 2 different payments for each individual service.*
but ISPs have to pay NBNco separately for access to fibre tail and to backhaul providers separately for backhaul.
I think you’re your backhauls confused, in simple terms the NBN is built like this..
Retail Service Provider <<>> NBN POI <<>> Local Exchange/FAN to the customer <<>> End Customer
I was referring to the cost of the non-NBN Backhaul, you’ve been referring to NBN Backhaul (aka CVC).
Try that again ..
Retail Service Provider {{{Backhaul – non-NBN}}} NBN POI {{{NBN Backhaul – This is the CVC}}} Local Exchange/FAN to the customer {{{Fibre Delivey – This is the AVC}}} End Customer
that’s exactly what i was referring to.
I’m sorry Tosh but I’m not going to be baited by you, your above 2 posts said the opposite to what you’ve just said now.
Moving along ..
disagree on what backhaul i was referring to, but agree on… “moving along”
Liar liar pants on fire.
Are you factoring in economies of scale for consolidation?
For example 10 exchanges in a metro area might be meshed into 1 POI.
For example instead of 10x 155Mbit/s back haul links, totaling 1.5Gbit/s of back haul, you might be able to scale it down to 1Gbit/s
I understand that back haul is cheap compared to CVC, but something to factor in.
It’s also known Telstra charge *something* for the space in the exchange used by DSLAM’s, NBNco’s NNI (network to network interface) charges are next to nothing, $200 for 10Gbit/s iirc.
NBNco is buying Telstra’s wholesale business for $11bln smackeroos.
i/ factor in Telstra’s current 70% market share: Bigpond (50%) and TW (20%)
ii/ it takes thousands of subscribers to “fill” 200Mbit of CVC capacity
iii/ unless foreign players like Singtel and Vodaphone with deep pockets are prepared to burn cash indefinitely, a lot of ISPs currently operating on non-TW DSLAMs will be returning to the TW fold, i.e. TW’s current 20% market share will increase further
iv/ NBNco isn’t going to hand Telstra a sh!tload of cash, turn around and wholesale access to the new fibre network “cheaply” so Telstra can make a killing on their newly-increased market share (say, 80%)
v/ at the same time, NBNco obviously can’t screw Telstra by raising pricing beyond current Bigpond/TW levels (in the short term) because that would be political suicide
so, my guess is, at the end of the day, pricing at the very top end, i.e. Bigpond, and at the very bottom end, i.e. Dodo, etc on congested resold TW, will be roughly unchanged.
the market segment that gets squeezed will be the Internodes and iiNet, which will see their cost advantage (proprietary DSLAMs) disappear once the copper tails are cut-over. basically, they have been subsidising their resold TW offerings with the higher margins on ULL/LSS. after that cross-subsidy vanishes, they will lose their market niche and be forced to either become more premium & expensive like Bigpond, or more cheap and congested like Dodo Internet. we have already seen the first moves with Internode making their internet plans stingier and more expensive like Bigpond, and they are warning of further pain to come.
basically, after spending $50bln of taxpyayers’ money, the market becomes hollowed out, more concentrated, fewer mid-value premium price points and Telstra becomes even MORE dominant.
also, we’re locking in a new government monopoly with a cost structure twice that of Telstra’s. they’re basically just disguising their underlying capital costs in the short-term to facilitate an easy transition from ADSL to fibre. over the long run, wholesale broadband can only get MORE expensive. and if we don’t voluntarily spend more on BB, they will just be forced to jack up AVC/CVC charges to make us pay more for the same.
nice deal.
ii/ it takes thousands of subscribers to “fill” 200Mbit of CVC capacity
1000 25Mb customers on a 200Mb CVC would have a 125:1 contention ratio, what ISP are you using because that’s terrible?
Tezz,
you make another excellent point. however:
from Internode blog:
“……. until there are THOUSANDS (not hundreds) of addressable premises connected downstream of each of these CVC’s (which is the point at which the 200 megabit initial CVC allocation STARTS to be at least a little more rational in terms of average cost per customer).” (MY CAPS)
maybe, he’s assuming most will take-up 12Mbit as opposed to 25Mbit or higher; that improves the CR somewhat.
also, at the end of the day, Internode is just following NBNco’s business model of $20,000/Gbit CVC.
NBNco’s own business plan talks about “average downloads of 11GB”, “0.05Mbit (16GB) provisioning only adds $1 to $24 AVC”, etc…
you can see where Internode got their “CVC stinginess” from….
LOL
*Why are people under the misconception that prices will go down? Wholesale prices are set, ROI for NBNco calculated, and so NO MORE PRICE CUTS CAN TAKE PLACE. The prices have no shifting ability, except for when less than 85% of people take up the NBN, in which case, prices will merely go up.*
currently, we spend around ~$30 (ARPU) on our fixed-lines. if we don’t voluntarily spend more over time and give NBNco a bigger wholesale take (they need $70-80 by 2028), they will force us to do it by jacking up AVC and/or CVC charges higher over time so they can pay back their massive $50bln debt.
Oh look once again the sky is falling… fffs!
Basically everything you’ve just said is a complete lie. It’s completely at odds with NBNCo’s business plan. Why do you lie in every single comment? Are you being paid? Is it really as pathetically transparent as your precious Telstra dividends?
*It’s completely at odds with NBNCo’s business plan. *
how would you know? it’s pretty obvious from your comments you haven’t read the business plan to any great detail.
Uh… they can lower CVC charges and raise AVC charges. It’s extremely easy for them to adjust pricing. Not to mention that as speeds go up, so will consumption, making it financially sensible to lower CVC.
*Uh… they can lower CVC charges and raise AVC charges. It’s extremely easy for them to adjust pricing. Not to mention that as speeds go up, so will consumption, making it financially sensible to lower CVC.*
look, even Internode has dropped that dud idea of shifting $1 from CVC to AVC. i don’t know why you’re trying to revive that rubbish. AVC and CVC will only go up from here unless they want to go bankrupt.
your “cost of non-NBN backhaul” is basically the bit linking each POI back to RSP’s POPs right?
Retail Service Provider <> NBN POI
The POINT Rennai is this: Conroy and all his merry men and blind followers have been jumping up and down touting mega speeds for all who are paying for this white elephant (everyone). The FACT is, to GET what they are have been touting is going to cost near $200/month at least!
“The FACT is, to GET what they are have been touting is going to cost near $200/month at least!”
If Internode (The only ISP in Australia) offered a 2tb plan for $320 tomorrow would you be saying the same thing?
“Will Australia’s vast and affluent middle class be happy to pay a little extra on the NBN to get up to 50Mbps speeds with a decent download quota? Absolutely they will.”
Got figures on how many Optus Cable (and Melbourne Telstra cable) are paying a premium for DOCSIS 3 speeds?
That should read “how many Optus Cable (and Melbourne Telstra cable) customers” if it wasn’t obvious.
I have Optus cable on a 120GB plan for $49.95 P/mth. I don’t know what speed I enjoy, but it is plenty quick enough. I see nothing in the pricing for NBN that is at all comparable. They are all dearer, and I believe I have to bundle a phone into it too, is that right ?
Optus have not released NBN pricing yet, so there’s nothing to compare with.
Dean,
I am comparing it to the prices that have been published by others so far, and they are all about $20 per month more and with less than the 120Gb I currently have. Massive expenditure of taxpayers’ money for a product with no financial payback. Makes no sense at all.
What’s the point of that? Is ADSL a waste of money because Internode’s cheapest plan is $49.95 for 30GB of quota, and you’re getting 120GB with cable for the same price?
Dean what Ken forgot to tell you is that he is also paying $29.95 for the phone bringing the total cost of what he is paying to $79.94. If we have a look at Internodes plans he can get the 12/1mbps 200gb plan for the same price. That’s 80gb more than what he is getting now and since he doesn’t know what speed he is getting 12mbps should be “plenty quick enough”
http://www.exetel.com.au/residential-fibre-pricing-mainland.php
$79 eh?
For that with Exetel you can get 200GB @ 25/5, few bucks more for 150GB @ 50/20, and 100GB @ 100/40
I have Telstra Dial-Up on a 50mb plan for $9.95 P/mth. I don’t know what speed I enjoy, but it is plenty quick enough. I see nothing in the pricing for Optus cable that is at all comparable. They are all dearer, and I believe I have move to an area where is is available and buy a new house, is that right ?
Suck this stupid.
And… suck this stupid… what a compelling argument!
Sorry Ken, I didn’t mean to expose the glaring flaws in your post. No need to cry about it.
We live only 3km off the main A1 Bruce Highway yet the only decent broadband we can get is via a satellite service.
For the ‘max speed’ of 2048kbps (yes that’s kbps) and 2GB per month, plus an extra 4GB for ‘out of peak time’ use, we have to pay $59.95.
Couple this with frequent service dropouts and little or no service during heavy rain, we would kill for a NBN service providing 30GB at 25Mbps for just $69.95 per month.
All this negativity is yet another example of the Mad Monks followers hanging on his every word, believing that he really cares (or understands) about Internet services, when all he wants is to scream and shout until he gets the top job for himself…
The NBN is a National Interest technology. Currently any phone can be tapped. Every wireless communication listened to by industrial esponagers and hostile foreign governments. The NBN gives Australian IP developers (patents ect) the first real shield against US and European evesdropping. Get real Australia. reject the dog whistling uber coward Abbott and his demented crap-bag of rent seeking low lives. The NBN is freedom.
Guess who has been watching too many James Bond movies ? When was the last case of Australian IP being stolen by an evil foreign government ?
Well not so much stolen but there is a significant amount of Australian IP being sold offshore as we don’t have the infrastructure to support it and one of our major infrastructure deficiencies is widely available fast broadband for both SMEs and Homes.
Has no one stopped and considered that 1) The taxpayer has paid for this NBN 2) The Taxpayer will have to continue to pay to be able to use it 3) Only the ISP’s and the government will profit from it. Anyway you look at it the taxpayer are the ones getting shafted.
LOL…
So your first complaint is the use of taxpayers money (the thing we pay so the government can build stuff) and your second complaint is when that money is payed back to the taxpayer? Interesting.
No my 2nd complaint is that really we/you/I are continuing to pay for something which we paid to have built in the first place – and the only ones who really benefit are government and ISP’s who profit from the NBN. It’s almost as if we bought the pony then have to pay to ride it.
And if the NBN weren’t there?
We’d pay Telstra, Optus, etc, exactly as we will with the NBN… gee
If Telstra or Optus paid for the NBN it would be an expense which they would recover through profit. If I’m correct profits made by the NBN are going to go directly to the government owned NBN Co, not back to the taxpayer who paid to have it built in the first place. We are paying to have it built then donated directly to a company who will charge you to use it. There is no guarantee that NBN Co will repay the costs of having the NBN built.
Uh… every dollar of profit made by NBNCo goes back into the network. Right now with Telstra/Optus all profit goes to shareholders and bank accounts for millionaire executives. Why the devil would you not want that money to go to NBNCo, which will spend ALL of it on the network?
What profit? and who pays the NBN executives?
“No my 2nd complaint is that really we/you/I are continuing to pay for something which we paid to have built in the first place”
So you believe we should get a phone and internet service for free after the NBN is built?
“It’s almost as if we bought the pony then have to pay to ride it.”
So what you are saying is it’s like the government building roads and highways and then having to buy a car and pay for fuel to use them. Imagine that. This is an outrage.
So you believe we should get a phone and internet service for free after the NBN is built?
No I’m saying that once this NBN is finished and donated to ‘NBN Co’ it should look to repay the debt to the taxpayer. It perhaps should be considered a loan from the taxpayer not a donation since it is a company which intends make profit from its use. Or will it be a non-profit company like some kind of charity?
‘So what you are saying is it’s like the government building roads and highways and then having to buy a car and pay for fuel to use them. Imagine that. This is an outrage.’
Last time I checked roads and highways were free for public use no matter how you choose to use it being taxpayer funded property. Your analogy of having to purchase a car to use them is irrelevant.
“No I’m saying that once this NBN is finished and donated to ‘NBN Co’ it should look to repay the debt to the taxpayer.”
So I was right your first complaint is the use of taxpayers money and your second complaint is when that money is payed back to the taxpayer.
“Last time I checked roads and highways were free for public use no matter how you choose to use it being taxpayer funded property.”
It makes no difference. You still expect the government to provide you with an internet service for free after the NBN is built so you should also expect them to pay for whatever else you need to make use of the roads you already payed for.
“Your analogy of having to purchase a car to use them is irrelevant.”
The analogy is perfectly relevant… even more so than your pony comparison.
“So I was right your first complaint is the use of taxpayers money and your second complaint is when that money is payed back to the taxpayer.”
There is no guarantee that the money will ever be paid to the tax payer. Profits will go to NBN Co, a government owned company. Which exactly why no business case has been produced for its expenditure. It’s the equal of you wanting to start your own company and expecting someone else to pay the start up costs with no intention of paying it back.
“It makes no difference. You still expect the government to provide you with an internet service for free after the NBN is built so you should also expect them to pay for whatever else you need to make use of the roads you already payed for.”
Clearly you fail to see the difference between the roads which is public property, and a business which charges you for its service. But I guess I see your point, in a sense yes if the public have paid for this infrastructure then it should be available for public use at non-profit. Instead private companies will profit from the NBN and the public will pay twice for it.
Your car analogy is not relevant, whether you choose public transport, own 50 cars or just walk. The roads themselves are available for use and are provided at no profit by government funds
“Clearly you fail to see the difference between the roads which is public property, and a business which charges you for its service.”
Except you are wrong. The failure is on your part, not mine. To make this easier for you to understand you could also compare the NBN to state rail networks, the government owns the infrastructure but we still have to pay to ride the trains and what you are suggesting is that because the state governments built these we should ride the trains for free.
“Your car analogy is not relevant”
It is perfectly relevant, as I said before since you expect the government to provide you with an internet service for free after the NBN is built so you should also expect them to pay for whatever else you need to make use of the roads you already payed for.
“whether you choose public transport, own 50 cars or just walk. The roads themselves are available for use and are provided at no profit by government funds”
So taxpayer money is used to pay for these roads and you don’t have a problem with that even though you still have to pay when using public transport or pay for fuel but if taxpayer money is used for the NBN which according to you wont be paid back to the taxpayer (just like the roads) you do have a problem with it because you have to pay to use the services that run on it (just like the roads) I understand.
“Except you are wrong. The failure is on your part, not mine. To make this easier for you to understand you could also compare the NBN to state rail networks, the government owns the infrastructure but we still have to pay to ride the trains and what you are suggesting is that because the state governments built these we should ride the trains for free.”
To make it easier for you to understand you clearly are confused and comparing a non-profit government service to NBN Co. It’s not unreasonable to expect that there are running costs, but for the most part public transport being public property is a non-profit government owned entity and the public assist with running costs. NBN is entirely different where the public do not have direct access except via a private ISP which means private ISP’s are the ones who directly benefit from profits, and again in your little box that you think inside of you fail to comprehend that the NBN Co is a business which will not refund the taxpayer on the massive donation given to them to pay for the infrastructure.
It is perfectly relevant, as I said before since you expect the government to provide you with an internet service for free after the NBN is built so you should also expect them to pay for whatever else you need to make use of the roads you already payed for.
See your car and roads analogy is still irrelevant and really highlights the lack of comprehension. Just because the government implements infrastructure that it will also provide all the desired components to use it. OK so it builds roads, but it also provides public transport for people who are unable to afford their own transport. OK if the government is going to spend $40billion of an NBN then perhaps access to it should be a basic right to all Australians and public access to the internet should be available and affordable to everyone who contributed to it through public libraries etc. But just because they build a road you should not expect a ferrari right? Well don’t expect to be given your own laptop and modem just because they build the NBN, if you can not afford them you should be able to use cheaper public access.
“So taxpayer money is used to pay for these roads and you don’t have a problem with that even though you still have to pay when using public transport or pay for fuel but if taxpayer money is used for the NBN which according to you wont be paid back to the taxpayer (just like the roads) you do have a problem with it because you have to pay to use the services that run on it (just like the roads) I understand.”
I’ll just be going around in circles here because I tried to get across, roads are not designed to be a business model, the NBN Co is and will be a pro profit business which will never pay back the money given to to it by the taxpayer.
In Business, you borrow money and claim a tax deduction, you depreciate you capital assets against your income and pay less tax. you diminish your income tax by claiming your expenses even if you passed them on to your customers, the Country derives less income for you company and often has to give subsidies and other support just for a company to provide product to people in an area in the first place. The company then wants to make a profit upon everything they invest so structure their price that way while trimming any fat(services) to the bone and YOU think that you are NOT paying for it if the government does not manage the grid. LOL
“See your car and roads analogy is still irrelevant and really highlights the lack of comprehension.”
Exactly. You cant comprehend it. Come back when you work it out.
Renai LeMay,
When are journalists and young people going to stop adopting extremely poor grammar from the USA? ……”already”. You must have gone to a government school. Really, get an education !
Disgusting! No wonder journalists are rated just above politicians and below lawyers and used car saleamen.
It’s OK, journalists are still rated just above anonymous grammar nazis.
Grammar Nazis can spell salesmen :)
Another thing that the alarmists are ignoring is that the world is moving to higher internet speeds with fibre optic networks. Therefore, Australia will either fully commit to such a national scheme now, or be forced to play catch up as an ‘unseeded’ player while it tries to compete with other countries that get there first.
NBN is good for business and good for Australia as a nation of producers as well as for consumers. It will open up current as well as new markets.
The kind of fear mongering pricing panic that detractors are bandying about has no basis in reality. By their distorted logic, we should never have invested in automobiles at their advent. After all, look how much we spend on cars, trucks, petrol and roads nowadays when back in the 1800s, horses were cheap and grass was free.
My points and frustration
1. Good story
2. Being a former Internode employee. I know they’ve been ‘rumored’ internal discussion about trying to shed the “nerd ISP” image or dumb the plans down for the middle class (eg; failed Tshirt plans). Because there no growth in the geeks/nerds
3. Simon and internode need to shut-up. Making a big scene how NBN is too expensive
4. Look forward to the price of NBN decrease over time. Patience is required
5. How? Look to example of when Dialup first started and when Telstra started offering ADSL back in 1997 and every year since I think 2003 the wholesale price started to drop
6. Internode was complaining again about the prices being too high
7. I think internode is scared because they might be considered ‘small ISP’ in the NBN world
8. Only way to grow the company is for internode massive advertise themselves in the print/media/billboard/tv/radio advertisements. Not waste guess estimate of $200,000 to stick a few billboards up and signage on a single bus in Adelaide and call yourself a “national ISP”.
9. They also ripped off Bigpond. When Bigpond isn’t Internode threat
10. Internode threat is loosing customers to TPG and IINET. They seem to be too focused on making press releases on how simon owned a tesla or ‘NBN is too high’
11. The cost of Internet with data is the lowest since ADSL was launch. Eventually even under a NBN the price needed to rise
IINET are running a huge tv/radio/print/bus/billboard advertisement across Australia and advertising themselves being the “New Number 2 in ISP”.
*4. Look forward to the price of NBN decrease over time. Patience is required
5. How? Look to example of when Dialup first started and when Telstra started offering ADSL back in 1997 and every year since I think 2003 the wholesale price started to drop*
How? three acronyms: LSS / ULL / WLR.
take ULL for example: the ACCC has slashed it by HALF since 2003. NBNco’s basically locking in current Bigpond/TW pricing with wholesale ARPU ~$33/mth plus $50bln cost structure (twice that of Telstra). from here on, ARPU has to go UP to well pass $70-80/mth. if we don’t voluntarily spend more at sufficiently high levels, NBNco will just have to jack up AVC and CVC charges over time to pay off their $50bln sunk capital. there’s no way around this. no ULL, LSS, etc..
*11. The cost of Internet with data is the lowest since ADSL was launch. Eventually even under a NBN the price needed to rise*
oh, it’s GUARANTEED to rise over the long-term under the NBN. there won’t be enough savings in other parts of the ISP cost structure to offset ~$50 rise in fixed-line wholesale ARPU.
*IINET are running a huge tv/radio/print/bus/billboard advertisement across Australia and advertising themselves being the “New Number 2 in ISP”.*
they won’t be for long when their DSLAMs disappear after the copper cut-over. iiNET will never have Singtel’s deep pockets, wireless bundles, etc to fight for market share under NBN.
What a blatant liar you are. $70-80 ARPU? Where does the business plan say that? Not to mention their insanely conservative estimates of sign-up rates and multiple alternative avenues for revenue generation. Stop being such a pathetic troll. God I wish Renai got some sense and banned people like you instead of threatening the likes of RS. If this were a community of users there’s no doubt you would have been banned for blatantly trolling and lying in the majority of your posts.
*$70-80 ARPU? Where does the business plan say that?*
i’m guessing you never even bothered to crunch the financial numbers in the business plan.
*Not to mention their insanely conservative estimates of sign-up rates*
you mean insanely AMBITIOUS and OPTIMISTIC. (i dunno why we have to keep correcting you.)
*Stop being such a pathetic troll.*
i suggest you seek professional counselling.
*God I wish Renai got some sense and banned people like you*
well, that’s exactly what happened on Whirlpool, where the NBN debate’s been censored to death and intelligent debate is non-existent, so trolls like you now come to delimiter instead for intellectual stimulation.
*instead of threatening the likes of RS.*
i know he’s your best mate on WP.
*and lying in the majority of your posts.*
inconvenient facts aren’t “lies”.
@HC – If you care to look, the LOWEST price for the touted 100Mbps is $100/month, with a paltry 30GB of download before your connection is throttled. These artificial download limits are something that have been completely ignored by Conroy & co. and yourself.
It should be also noted that the speeds are nominal port speeds, NOT actual service speeds, so in that respect, everybody has been duped.
“If you care to look, the LOWEST price for the touted 100Mbps is $100/month, with a paltry 30GB”
So get a plan from Exetel then dummy.
@HC – Your arguments re. roads and rail are totally illogical.
It costs to ride on a train, because its a train, not a rail line. It costs to ride on public transport such as a bus, because its a bus, not a road.
If we are to carry your reasoning more logically, then we could say that its going to cost a minimum of $100/month for nothing whatsoever, since all a user needs to do is to plug into the connection that has been promised to their house.
$100 is a good average for what people will be paying, so how much money is going to be pulled with this thing? Let’s see, 8 million households = $800 million/month x 12 = almost 10 billion/year. Divide that by two to be realistic, so 5 billion a year.
I think you need to spend a few weeks living with a low income family… who probably can’t afford a computer or phone anyway.
“Your arguments re. roads and rail are totally illogical.”
Actually they are not. But we’ve covered this subject before. If you fail to understand or comprehend the comparison that is a failure on your part not mine…
“It costs to ride on a train, because its a train, not a rail line. It costs to ride on public transport such as a bus, because its a bus, not a road.”
and this is proof of that. Infrastructure + the services which run on them, one the taxpayer pays for and one the customer pays for. You are still arguing that we should get services on the NBN for free because we paid for the infrastructure. No one expects a free ride on a train or bus.
@HC
“Actually they are not. But we’ve covered this subject before. If you fail to understand or comprehend the comparison that is a failure on your part not mine…”
You’re a simple guy HC trying to be intelligent you fail pretty much to think outside of that little box you call a head but that’s ok.
‘and this is proof of that. Infrastructure + the services which run on them, one the taxpayer pays for and one the customer pays for. You are still arguing that we should get services on the NBN for free because we paid for the infrastructure. No one expects a free ride on a train or bus.
See somehow you are unable to distinguish the difference between the roads and a non-profit government owned service provided to the public. I will try to help you understand using your own analogy. In this case the NBN is the road, it is public property which is owned by the government, the vehicles for this NBN will be PC’s, phone’s, XBox and various devices you probably use to download your porn and beat off while playing world of warcraft. The government doesn’t provide these devices, you need to purchase them yourself just like you need to purchase your own car. If you can not afford to purchase one of these devices then there should be some kind of low cost public access just like the government provides low cost transport to those who are unable to purchase their own vehicle non-profit. Anyway I am dragging myself through the mud trying to communicate with you as you seem to try to condescend many posts here regardless of if their point of view is valid. You seem to have yourself up on a pedestal and regard pretty much everyone with contempt so really you should be treated the same. Bye now and have fun with the voices in your head telling you things that really don’t make sense to anyone other than yourself.
Holy cow you idiot. Taxpayers aren’t spending any money to build the network. It’s built entirely on loaned money, through bonds and such. The network is being paid off through SUBSCRIBER REVENUE. How hard is that to understand?
@Merlin
“Holy cow you idiot. Taxpayers aren’t spending any money to build the network. It’s built entirely on loaned money, through bonds and such. The network is being paid off through SUBSCRIBER REVENUE. How hard is that to understand?”
Then why isn’t this information which you seem to have exclusive access to included in the business case? I mean honestly just google ‘NBN business case’ because somehow you like to base your so called facts on assumptions. NBN Co and ISP’s will be the beneficiaries of this network donated to them by taxpayers money. Clearly I could build a better business case for taking a dump in your mouth since clearly you like to talk sh*t and hurl insults without providing any real facts.
@HC – Tombo beat me to the punch. Clearly it is you who are the dummy.
Affording the cost is about progressive roll out, Telstra put up the rental price of landlines 7.5% saying it was to pay for landlanes in country areas, it then installed CDMA with profits and losses returning to the Mobile divisions, and invested badly in foreign telco. so Telsra’s fibre upgrade to country areas did not go well. John Howard as the head of the major shareholder failed his job in getting the best for the citizens of Australia, and then we have to buy back what we already owned, without getting to own it again, and then more. Frontwards or backwards having a national grid progressively rolled out and paid for was the way to go. Except for our (Australias) own incompetance we would have it almost complete and paid for. Paual Keating should have done it back in his day instrad of just rebadging telecom and cutting loose. And why Conroy did not buy it back I just don’t understand. We will wnd up paying for it all over again with interest.while you all argue and vasilitate.
please correct me if i’m wrong: i presume regional Australia is currently deprived of phone+bb bundling discounts and pay a higher retail price overall than metro regions.
if that’s the case, the biggest question going forward is whether the NBN wholesale aggregators (which sell a complete product including backhaul) and the backhaul aggregators like Nextgen will enforce backhaul cross-subsidisation across metro and regional.
if they don’t, then under the NBN, regional customers will still pay MORE for broadband than metro customers.
there are also other higher servicing costs in Whoop Whoop other than backhaul that would make regional BB more expensive than metro BB that NBNco or the Government can’t do anything about.
whether metro and regional BB prices will actually equalise – that’s the biggest question and uncertainty in my view. and that’s to a large part dependent on how the large aggregators price their services. i suspect since it’s possible for RSPs to cherry pick metro POIs, the aggregators won’t cross-subsidise.
so, after everything is all said and built, guys like HC will still be whinging about regional BB prices…
LOL
Perhaps that’s so, But to have a high speed broad band service, that they might video confrence with the world provides more to the reigon that the $$$ beligh. you cannot easily put a price on it but people in the burbs take it for granted and we sit here and say they will be charged more, let them have the same as us first and then focus on the cost, you never know we might move there for a better lifestyle.
“guys like HC will still be whinging about regional BB prices…”
Considering I’ve never whinged about regional prices that seems unlikely in any event… I predict you’ll still be whinging about the price of a 12/1mbps connection long after everyone has moved on to 100/40mbps though…
*Considering I’ve never whinged about regional prices*
LOL
*long after everyone has moved on to 100/40mbps *
when’s that? 2090?
3090 if YOUR precious Lib party introduces their BS network…!
Meant to put this here instead of other article.
AT out office here I will gladly pay $190/month + an extra $30 month for the business pack. It will be 25x the speed on download and 12.5x the speed on upload on what telstra can offer me for $1500/month, with worst customer service and less flexibility. Just as an aside quotes for that service have varied from $1500/month to $15,000/month with huge installation fees despite the fact I have dark fibre running from our building to the nearest telstra exchange already.
New headline for your “NBN less than 1/10th price and faster than existing services”
1/ are there different prices for “residential” vs “business” on NBN retail pricing?
business ADSL is more expensive b/c “business” is currently subsidising “residential” ADSL. there may also be other QoS issues.
2/ those $1,500/mth quotes reflect market pricing of what it actually costs to provision the faster service. NBNco is selling BELOW COST and hoping that ARPU will organically rise over time to pay off the present money-losing “subsidies”.
Meant to put this here instead of other article.
1/ are there different prices for “residential” vs “business” on NBN retail pricing?
business ADSL is more expensive b/c “business” is currently subsidising “residential” ADSL. there may also be other QoS issues.
2/ those $1,500/mth quotes reflect market pricing of what it actually costs to provision the faster service. NBNco is selling BELOW COST and hoping that ARPU will organically rise over time to pay off the present money-losing “subsidies”.
Because it is taxpayer funded from the seemingly bottomless money pit selling at below cost is a way of artificially making the plans look a hell of a lot better than they normally would.
NBN Co budget overruns? – who cares, ‘give me my fibre, I want it and I want it now’.
basically, the retail pricing reflects NBN wholesale pricing structure
AVC pricing is relatively flat up to 100Mbit, with NBNco trying to recoup revenue from CVC charge instead.
that’s why you have only a $10 jump from one speed port to another.
however, the quotas are sh!thouse because CVC is really expensive. there’s no way Telstra is charging $20,000/Gbit on high data volume business connections.
by applying a one-size-fits-all solution/pricing, NBNco is just distorting the market.
@ Renai LeMay
“Enough with the NBN pricing hysteria, already”
LOL
Yea, well, I cry BS.
$59 with a 30GB quota?! Well excuse me, but WTF.
I pay that now will unlimited download. Nobody will ever convince me it’s a better deal to go NBN at that price.
When I first saw the $189 pm offering, my only real thought was “how soon can I sign up and get this happening?”
+1
If I could pay $200 tomorrow for fibre to my house, I would pay for five years in advance.
Well, its nice that you have a lazy $12k laying around, but you totally miss the point that many argue here:
The NBN is paid for by tax payers. As such, it should be a public asset, such as roads. Instead, it is a vehicle for other companies to make money through and NBN Co to make money through from those very same tax payers at prices that do not all reflect the fact that tax payers paid for the infrastructure in the first place!
This is immoral. They should raise their own money to build it, not use public money to create something designed to rip off the public. And thats a truth, the prices are a rip off.
I invite you also, to spend a couple of weeks living with a low income family, leave your credit card at home.
…me too, Renai
I cannot believe the whingers on here… Why do the Mr Rabbott righties think they should get everything for free? Must have had a spoilt pampered upbringing IMO…
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that it should be free, but since it has been paid for with public money there should be some kind of public access available. If you want a premium service then ok pay the extra, but there will be taxpayers who either can not afford premium access or do not require premium access – however some kind of access should be available considering it is paid for with public money.
I’ve seen an example of this in Thailand where there is free wifi available in many public area’s such as parks and beaches. Since it is paid for by public money it should be considered public property and access to it should be the right of all Australians. No one is suggesting that the government should now go and buy everyone a laptop.
If the government somehow can justify spending this kind of money on this project in a way it is also suggesting that internet access should be a public service like running water.
So one group whinges about the small ROI and $$$$$$$ and another claims there should be some kind of (free) public access??????
‘So one group whinges about the small ROI and $$$$$$$ and another claims there should be some kind of (free) public access??????’
Sure why not, I mean free wifi isn’t exactly a new idea it’s on offer by many businesses as a free service to paying customers. In a sense the taxpayer is a customer of this NBN Co seeing as they have contributed to it in some way. It’s already on offer in public libraries etc…so why not simply expand on it at bit, provided by the NBN co. If countries like Singapore and Thailand can offer this service I don’t really understand why it can’t be done in Australia. I’m not against the NBN, but I do think it could and should become a public service to some extent.
People are asking for free nothing…
Whether it’s built privately and repaid via clientele or built by the government and repaid via clientele makes SFA difference, it’s repaid via clientele, so helllooooo!
But yeah why not… you FUDsters may as well whinge come what may… ah damned if they do/don’t eh…that’s the spirit!
@RS
LOL….Rage much?
You overuse the word FUD a bit. I like the idea of free public wifi in certain areas, I’m sure you’ll get over it.
I’m not anti-NBN at all, and I don’t think everyone should get a free connection to their house. But wanting free wifi in parks, some beaches perhaps and regularly used public areas isn’t exactly FUD, in fact I seen it work well in other countries so why not Australia? I’m just saying
And you feel free to “keep saying”… tiger and I will feel free to describe silly, pointless, negative comments as FUD. As such, no need to get all defensive tiges…LOL!
But who’s being negative big boy? Someone put’s an idea out there and you scream FUD FUD FUD like some angry child that wants his mummy to bring him his ice cream. You clearly didn’t get enough hugs as a child – or aren’t getting laid enough as a man…..you criticizing silly pointless comments?? OK Hello pot lets call the kettle black.
And after that YOU have the audacity and hypocrisy to call another (anyone) childish…LOL
The true irony here is that people are getting the connection (the bit their tax dollars, the money from the bonds, the money the government has on loan, etc) at no cost, ie. for free.. After all the physical last mile connection which is all the NBN really is.
What people are asking for is everything else for free as well, ie. backhaul from the NBN POI’s, internet connectivity, etc, or to put it another, people are asking to get for free something that isn’t the NBN.
I do see your point Tezz – and I do agree not everything can be free. However I have read the NBN Business case and had a look at the business model. Basically the business model is split into 2 types.
1) NBN Co —-> WholeSaler —-> Retail Service Provider
2) NBN Co —-> Retail Service Provider
The business model expects the bulk of the NBN Co business to be done through a wholesalers. Many ISP’s will still not deal directly with NBN Co but through a wholesaler like Telstra or Optus.
With option 2) local and federal governments can operate as service providers dealing directly with NBN Co and not having to go through a wholesaler thus providing a public service in select areas.
The business model is on the very last page of the NBN Business Case – you’re opinion may differ to mine but that’s the impression I get from reading it.
There is no “impression” there, you’re reading it wrong.
The NBN bit (ie. the bit from the POI to the customer site) will be handled by the retail service provider.
The next bit from the NBN POI to the where the retail service provider provides internet connectivity (or whatever else the service is being used for) will either be provided by the service provider themselves, or wholesaled from the NBN where they have backhaul or from another backhaul wholesaler like Telstra/Optus.
With option 2) local and federal governments can operate as service providers dealing directly with NBN Co and not having to go through a wholesaler thus providing a public service in select areas.
To clarify this bit, no they can’t operate as service providers, they would need a telecommunications carrier license for that.
What it means they don’t have to go to a retail service provider to get their service, and instead they can install their own gear at the NBN POIs where they need it, and then either provide their own backhaul or wholesale it from NBNCo/Telstra/Optus.
So really they can do exactly the same as a retail service provider, except they aren’t providing services to the customers, they are only providing the service to themselves.
Cheers Tezz I guess this part was the point I was trying make, your explanation/quote adds clarity
“What it means they don’t have to go to a retail service provider to get their service, and instead they can install their own gear at the NBN POIs where they need it, and then either provide their own backhaul or wholesale it from NBNCo/Telstra/Optus.
So really they can do exactly the same as a retail service provider, except they aren’t providing services to the customers, they are only providing the service to themselves.”
By providing a service to themselves my impression is that it can then be made available to the public. I’m currently in Thailand and notice that there is public WIFI available in many parks and recreational areas – I guess I just like the idea of this and is something that would be great to see in Australia.
THE National Broadband Network has just 41 active customers at its two operating mainland test sites, despite more than 6000 homes having been connected to the grid
Pretty much as HC prophesied…LOL
http://delimiter.com.au/2011/07/29/nbn-switched-on-in-kiama-minnamurra/#commenting
The only thing laughable is that you find facts as something to be ridiculed.
Lets all see how the takeup is in areas like Stony Crossing NSW, Picola VIC, Glen Aplin QLD….. but of course, the idiots who jump up and down wanting the NBN don’t give a hoot about people in these areas….
We will all truly learn what “digital divide” means.
Wow 0-100 in 2.2 FUD seconds, it’s just too easy…LOL!
Now there is something truly funny…. don’t have the intelligence to make any kind of valid point, so you waste your time trolling and labelling anything you don’t understand as FUD…. I doubt you actually know what FUD is…..
“NBN ready to start connecting in Brunswick (Vic).
THE first Melbourne site in the government’s national broadband project is to be launched next week.
Of 2600 properties in the Brunswick site, only 52 per cent will be connected to the NBN because the owners of the remaining properties did not consent to NBN Co installing equipment on their properties.”
Gee, I wonder what people are finding wrong with something that is “free”.
2600 houses? I hope they nicknamed this the Captain Crunch install and gave everyone free packets of cereal during the installation.
Now following Tombos very clever [sic] comment (it obviously hurts, you being proven and thus realising you are a fool eh Tombo)… So back to reality…
Actually to answer your FUD Backslider, it’s a shame for the people of Brunswick (keeping in mind that Armidale, according to the official figures has an 88% sign up) that the governments (note plural) federal and state aren’t promoting the NBN as they should.
Obviously the Federal government are incapable of getting any positive info across, especially with the media who feel threatened by the NBN (read Australian) forever putting a negative spin on everything!
Then with the state government being opposed (politically) to the NBN… the people of Brunswick will never receive the info (correct info) they need/deserve!
meh, you guys need to consult the official the definition for what FUD means .. http://bit.ly/7JJSz8
RS and Tombo, you have been banned from Delimiter for a period of two weeks after a number of inappropriate comments. I have also deleted quite a few of the posts you have made over the past 24 hours.
Cheers,
Renai
Delimiter Overwatch
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