Internode prices prove NBN failure, says Turnbull

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Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has claimed that early pricing released by Internode yesterday for services on the National Broadband Network demonstrates consumer prices under the NBN will be higher than those currently levied for access to current broadband services.

Internode will only offer so-called ‘bundled’ plans which come with a telephone connection and prices starting at $59.95 a month and ranging up to $189.95. It is difficult to directly compare Internode’s current ADSL broadband plans with the NBN fibre-based plans, due to the different speed tiers which are offered. However, at the 25Mbps tier, which offers similar speeds to the equivalent ADSL plans (but dramatically better latency, and expected better reliability), the prices are relatively comparable.

However, in a statement published yesterday on his site, Turnbull stated Internode’s pricing revelation had undercut the argument for the NBN and the credibility of Communications Minister Stephen Conroy.

Turnbull cited two examples which, he said, demonstrated that price modelling conducted by NBN Co was “utterly wrong”. In the first, he said NBN Co had estimated a 12Mbps plan would cost between $53 and $58 a month with a 50GB quota. In comparison, Internode is offering a 12Mbps plan for $59.95 with a 30GB quota.

Secondly, Turnbull said NBN Co had estimated that a 25Mbps plan would cost between $62 and $68 with a 200GB quota. However, Internode yesterday put forth a 25Mbps plan which would cost $89.95 with a 200GB quota — which Turnbull said was “32 percent higher than the high end of the NBN’s scale”.

“These serious gaps in the NBN business model will prove costly to taxpayers and more importantly, to internet users who may not be able to afford the hikes,” the Liberal MP said. “As I have said repeatedly, the main barrier to the internet is not distance but cost. The biggest disparity between those who access the internet and those who don’t is their level of income.”

Hackett also yesterday published an extensive blog post detailing his ongoing criticisms of the NBN’s pricing model. The executive chiefly objects to the number of points of interconnect through which ISPs will be able to connect to the NBN fibre infrastructure, as well as the underlying cost of providing bandwidth to end users.

“Mr Hackett makes some sensible suggestions as to how the NBN can prevent wiping out smaller retailers,” said Turnbull “”That he has had to do so publicly on a website shows Senator Stephen Conroy has not bothered to listen to the industry about their concerns. After looking at these prices, Prime Minister Gillard and Stephen Conroy must now tell all Australians how this colossal project – conducted without the most basic cost-benefit analysis – will benefit them.”

Conroy told ABC Radio’s AM program this morning that the Government was also disappointed with the points of interconnect decision, which was made by the national competition regulator, but exhorted observers to remain patient on the pricing issue.

“There are many companies yet to put their pricing in and we expect to see robust competition taking place which will see consumers better off because of NBN as pricing becomes more and more competitive,” he said.

Image credit: Office of Malcolm Turnbull

60 COMMENTS

  1. *Turnbull cited two examples which, he said, demonstrated that price modelling conducted by NBN Co was “utterly wrong”.*

    sorry, this is a new revelation…? of course, NBNco’s modelling of retail prices is wrong and misleading – basically, they assume ridiculously high contention ratios.

    if they can’t model simple retail gross margins properly, how accurate is their “cost modelling” for a nationwide, decade-long, multi-billion dollar infrastructure project?

    • Who cares, so the NBN goes massively over budget because of revenue shortfalls because they stuffed up the wholesale models and have to adjust it downwards to placate ISP’s, the sucker taxpayer is footing the bill, the pit is bottomless.

  2. Turnbull, Turnbull, Turnbull.

    It’s one provider, a small one, that has always charged a slight premium in the name of service. So why don’t you reserve judgement on the “failure” of the model until a few other ISPs join the fray.

    Also, if you have a problem with the pricing, especially one highlighted by an industry player, it is your job in opposition to help them lobby for change. I hope you do this instead of turning this into another one of your “Stop the NBN, we can do it cheaper” campaigns you so love.

    I personally have said that the CVC pricing needs to be brought down somehow for quite a while, mirroring the concerns of Simon Hackett, but not necessarily his solutions, and all I, like Hackett, have heard squat in terms of corrective action, but plenty of work arounds and justifications from NBN Co.

    It just annoys me that this problem now enters the political arena and will likely be used as fuel for your “Destory the NBN” fire Mr Turnbull, and also, Mr Turnbull, I wondering if you saw this coming and just sat on it cause it plays nicely to your agenda.

    Either way in this issue I’m disappointed in our Minister and Shadow Minister’s lack of foresight and corrective action. I hope that this error does not result in robbing average joes via unnecessary expense or the ability to connect to the NBN because two men are too proud to do their job of representing the interests of the people.

    • “It’s one provider, a small one, that has always charged a slight premium in the name of service. So why don’t you reserve judgement on the “failure” of the model until a few other ISPs join the fray.”

      +1

    • @Nightkhaos

      “It’s one provider, a small one, that has always charged a slight premium in the name of service”

      Nice weasel words, Internode charge up to $30 more on a equivalent plan than a competitor and that’s a ‘slight premium’? – so what do you define a massive gap as then?

      ” So why don’t you reserve judgement on the “failure” of the model until a few other ISPs join the fray.”

      Why? – he’s not allowed to comment on Internode NBN pricing because you say so under the desperate hope another ISP publishes their pricing soon and undercuts Internode’s NBN Plans drastically?

      “Also, if you have a problem with the pricing, especially one highlighted by an industry player, it is your job in opposition to help them lobby for change. ”

      Well he probably will, it has only been a one day since the plan release, I hope you ask the person who is in a better position to instigate any change, the Minister responsible for the NBN Conroy to do the same NK, you don’t want to be accused of blatant hypocrisy here.

      “I hope you do this instead of turning this into another one of your “Stop the NBN, we can do it cheaper” campaigns you so love.”

      Sorry he probably will, that’s political opportunism for you, but you have a point, Conroy and Gillard never do it! LOL

      “Mr Turnbull, I wondering if you saw this coming and just sat on it cause it plays nicely to your agenda.”

      Hackett sends Turnbull advance notice of all his plans for approval?

      “Either way in this issue I’m disappointed in our Minister and Shadow Minister’s lack of foresight and corrective action.”

      But 99% the current Minister because he is actually in charge here not Turnbull, the Coalition are not in power NK, I thought you might have lost sight of that in your blind zeal to try and dilute it so it looks like Conroy and Turnbull are 50-50 co-partners in the Labor NBN build decision.

      ” I hope that this error does not result in robbing average joes via unnecessary expense or the ability to connect to the NBN because two men are too proud to do their job of representing the interests of the people.”

      I assume the interests of the people are ensuring NBN BB is available as cheap you can get ADSL today, like a unbundled $29.99 entry point for 50 gig, and that the unbundled voice component costs no more than $20.95/mth?

      Let’s get specific here on what you mean, not vague feel good generalities.

        • I understand you only want to read feel good stories about the NBN, really sorry about that (not really).

          BTW the in depth analysis and thought that went into debunking each of my points, I really appreciate the effort.

          • Why should we bother debunking your points Alain. It’s clear to anyone reading this you’re just trolling me. Good effort by the way. It’s a pity you couldn’t actually provide any cogent points. Accusing me of not holding Conroy to the same standard? Taking Internodes recent price hikes as indicative of their entire pricing history? Asking me to provide analysis and objective goals on a complex problem that no one can possibly provide a definitive answer for?

            Kudos to you. A few months ago I would have been up at arms at your malice intent to try and undermine me. Now I just feel pity for you, like you’re way in over your head and are just banging at the walls looking for attention.

            I hope you can find better retorts to my posts in this future than attempting to twist my points into things they’re not.

            I only wish I understood your intent. What is it you want from me out of this retort? Do my words offend you, is there something fundamentally wrong with my world view you’re trying to correct, or do you genuinely believe that post was a hate rant against Turnbull and I hold politicians to a double standard?

          • @Nightkhaos

            “Why should we bother debunking your points Alain. It’s clear to anyone reading this you’re just trolling me.’

            Disagreeing with your points and explaining why is not trolling,it was all on topic pertinent to the points you made one by one, you obviously don’t like it, but that’s too bad.

            “It’s a pity you couldn’t actually provide any cogent points.”

            Well I did, you just don’t like them, BTW putting words like ‘cogent’ into your post doesn’t get you off.

            “Taking Internodes recent price hikes as indicative of their entire pricing history?”

            err what? – I was comparing Internode prices with current competitor pricing as at today 22/7/2011, what are you on about with that ‘entire pricing history’ crap?

            I look forward to further NBN pricing so I can compare it with current ADSL pricing across all ISP’s as well, I assume a few of them are looking at the ’rounding up strategy’ on their current ADSL plans a week or so out from NBN plan publication so the NBN doesn’t look so bad.

            It will depend on which ISP’s do and which ISP’s don’t want to make the NBN look good.

            “Accusing me of not holding Conroy to the same standard?”

            Well you did but it was diluted, most of the post was asking Turnbull to do something about it, which is bizarre as he is not even the Minister in Government responsible for the NBN and it is not even Coalition policy.

            Why don’t you ask the Independents to do something about it, they hold the the balance of power not Turnbull.

            “I hope you can find better retorts to my posts in this future than attempting to twist my points into things they’re not.”

            Not that you pointed the ‘twists’ out, but never mind.

          • “Okay. Now that’s just amusing this time. :)”

            That’s new, what happened to *face palm* or that’s a ‘non reply’.

          • Oh it’s Merlin the wizard and his magic BS, how’s Telstra going taking all their profits and starting monopolies overseas?

          • The fact that you say he is trolling is pathetic

            It just goes to show that

            1. You are heavily biased
            2. You cannot answer his questions

            Point #1 is most likely due to the fact that you are hanging onto the NBN, like a lifelane, hoping in humanity that it will go forward and that the pricing scheme will ‘magically fix itself’, while at the same time expecting the coalition to act like your slave and prove everything to you when

            1. They don’t have the information to do so
            2. They don’t have the funds to do so (opposition has limited funding)
            3. They don’t have access to things like the Treasury, or PC, or Infrustructure Australia (that only happens during a caretaker period which is when an election is announced)

          • I find this ironic considering had you read the initial post this thread was all about Turnbull not having enough information to pass judgement on pricing. And your first defense for him is he doesn’t have enough information.

            And I don’t think it will it will magically happen. Do you really regard me as that deluded?

            What questions should I be answering? The one where he asks me why I think Turnbull should reserve judgement on pricing? Actually. That’s about it for this thread.

          • I don’t know who you are referring to so I’ll jump in…

            1. He’s biased and you aren’t? Lol… it’s one thing to be biased for (as I will clearly admit to) or against the NBN. But to be biased politically and (oppose the NBN because you are told to) and have a political party speak and “think for you” as you do, is pathetic. Baa!

            2. Won’t answer questions…LOL!!!!!

            Ok to prove you aren’t a hypocrite “does the Senate form government as you previously claimed”? Yes or No? If yes LOL if no, why did you lie and why did you NOT answer the same question (asked maybe 10 times) previously?

            Your blithering about fix it self etc, is laughable…and then of course…

            1. Your subservience to the Opposition is pitiful
            2. Your subservience to the Opposition is pitiful
            3. Your subservience to the Opposition is pitiful

          • putting words like ‘cogent’ into your post doesn’t get you off.

            it gets me off ooooooooooooh yeeeeeeeeaaaaaah mmmmm

  3. His examples are from….wait for it……1, yes that’s right….1 ISP, and the zombies just swallow whatever he says….OMFG….1 ISP….we’re all doomed…..

  4. I often wonder where the balance is on stuff like this and why journos continue to re-angle stories simply to get a ‘new’ angle rather than address the facts of an issue.

    Conroy said a lot more than the lame 2 pars at the arse-end of this story that directly addressed pricing — like this was within the band calculated and that many people were not comparing apples-to-apples because they often left out line rental charges out of the equation and adding those in brought things back to the pricing band that they anticipated. Also, this is the first vendor to provide pricing and others will come in high and other will come in lower.

    The Consumer people (Choice, I believe) are also on the radio waves saying that the price is within expected bands for superior service, yet Delimited replays Turnbull’s line simply because he’s the last one to provide another angle to a story that has been running all morning on radio?

    Lame.

    • “like this was within the band calculated and that many people were not comparing apples-to-apples because they often left out line rental charges out of the equation and adding those in brought things back to the pricing band that they anticipated.”

      Well it doesn’t actually if you care to bother to compare unbundled ADSL with unbundled NBN, but never mind it’s worth a try I guess.

      Also you cannot compare bundled with rental ADSL with the bundled with voice pricing of the NBN because they don’t provide one yet, so the anticipation cannot be anticipated.

      “The Consumer people (Choice, I believe) are also on the radio waves saying that the price is within expected bands for superior service,”

      What superior service? – what if residences are happy with the speeds they have today at the lower than NBN (so far) entry points they have today?

        • Yeah they are resigned to it being a hell of a lot cheaper, email retrieval and posting at $29.99 works exactly like email retrieval and posting at $59.95.

      • Alain : Internodes prices are bundled with voice

        “The telephone service which will be bundled with the plans is Internode’s NodePhone internet telephony offering (voice over IP) and $10 monthly call credit, although the company has also noted that NBN Co is planning to also offer what Internode described as “a conventional analogue fixed line voice service”, which will be available later in 2011 through Internode.”

        What superior service? – what if residences are happy with the speeds they have today at the lower than NBN (so far) entry points they have today?

        I’m happy with my Model T Ford, why aren’t I allowed to purchase another one of those and have to get one of these new Ford Focuses? What do you mean Ford don’t make Model Ts anymore! This is an outrage!

        • “Alain : Internodes prices are bundled with voice”

          Yes I was waiting for someone to bring up that ‘killer deal’ available on Internode NBN plans, how does that work NK can you plug your existing PSTN phone into the phone port of the ONT?

          For those that don’t use fixed line voice at all getting $10 worth of calls is irrelevant, at $59.95 for the cheapest plan it is still more expensive than unbundled ADSL, it is not as if you can say to Internode can I have it for $49.95 because I will never use the $10 worth of VoIP.

          “I’m happy with my Model T Ford, ”

          Oh hear we go, it’s stupid analogies time I see, tell me how email, Twitter, Facebook , Google searches and browsing work better on $59.95 FTTH than $29.99 ADSL2+?

          What’s that superior service give me other than a superior monthly invoice?

          • Yes I was waiting for someone to bring up that ‘killer deal’ available on Internode NBN plans, how does that work NK can you plug your existing PSTN phone into the phone port of the ONT?

            It’s not a killer deal. You said voice pricing Isn’t included, but it is, via NodePhone. I don’t know if it works by plugging into one of the voice ports or not. Ask Internode.

            For those that don’t use fixed line voice at all getting $10 worth of calls is irrelevant, at $59.95 for the cheapest plan it is still more expensive than unbundled ADSL, it is not as if you can say to Internode can I have it for $49.95 because I will never use the $10 worth of VoIP.

            This is true. So why don’t you tell Internode you’re not happy about this. This is exactly like Telstra Velocity bundling voice people might not want.

            But it is not the responsibility of NBNCo to fix these two issues. They are decisions made by Internode. We have pricing from one provider. One. These prices are not indicative of what all plans will be like on the NBN.

            You, like Turnbull, need to reserve judgement until we have more pricing from other providers.

            Oh hear we go, it’s stupid analogies time I see, tell me how email, Twitter, Facebook , Google searches and browsing work better on $59.95 FTTH than $29.99 ADSL2+?

            Ignoring the fact those $30 ADSL2+ plans need phone rental so you’re trying to make the price difference worse than it is, my point was, tough, sometimes the world moves on and you need to move with it.

          • @Nightkhaos

            “You said voice pricing Isn’t included,”

            No I didn’t .

            ” I don’t know if it works by plugging into one of the voice ports or not. Ask Internode.” ‘

            No it doesn’t plug into the UNI-V port, you need a VoIP capable router or a VoIP capable handset .

            “This is true. So why don’t you tell Internode you’re not happy about this.”

            Don’t need to, customers in the Whirlpool thread on the new NBN plans are giving them heaps on that already.

            “But it is not the responsibility of NBNCo to fix these two issues. They are decisions made by Internode.”

            I am sure Hackett will be really happy with that comment in light of his massive blog about NBN pricing. LOL

            “We have pricing from one provider. One. These prices are not indicative of what all plans will be like on the NBN.”

            True, you would hope the next round from whatever ISP that is, I assume it will be iiNet will be a hell of a lot better value.

            “Ignoring the fact those $30 ADSL2+ plans need phone rental ”

            No they don’t, I said it was unbundled, did you blink on that word in the scan of the pricing?

            http://www.tpg.com.au/products_services/adsl2plus_pricing.php?/pricing/adsl2plus

          • I mean unbundled pricing from the ISP, the ISP’s have both, the bundled price (with phone) on the same plan level usually gives you more quota a discounted BB price or both.

          • Doesn’t change the fact you’re misrepresenting the price difference. You still have to get a phone line rental, which you don’t need for the NBN do you?

          • Doesn’t matter, if the cheapest line rental which is of course Telstra HLB + entry level ADSL1 or ADSL2+ plan of choice or Naked DSL is less than the cheapest Internode NBN level Bronze Plan at $59.95 does it?

            I am referring to the cheapest entry into NBN broadband and comparing it with the cheapest entry into ADSL broadband.

            You also overlook that you cannot buy $20.95 NBN voice only, the voice port on the ONT box is going begging at the moment.

          • Misrepresentation. Look it up. Comparing $30 ADSL2 to $60 FTTH without including the HL Budget Line Rental Requirement is still misrepresenting.

            And do you remember that FAQ about phone pricing on nbn.gov.au? We can’t get $21 voice service YET.

          • PSTN + ADSL BB = NBN FTTH with $10 of VoIP?

            “And do you remember that FAQ about phone pricing on nbn.gov.au? We can’t get $21 voice service YET.”

            Yeah I know that’s what I keep saying and….?

          • PSTN + ADSL BB = NBN FTTH with $10 of VoIP?

            Yes they are equivalent. Further, with the exception of ULL, which PointZeroOne kindly linked for us and showed the increase in prices, to get ADSL2 you must, regardless of if you want it or not, purchase a PSTN service.

            To, therefore, accurately represent the pricing discrepancy you MUST include this associated dependency. You have not, which is, as stated, misrepresentation.

            Yeah I know that’s what I keep saying and….?

            And… And.. And everything! The fact that the government is committed to ensuring their is voice only options available is significant because that means we can expect there to be some and further more we have a price (no more than they pay now) to work with.

            Are you just rejecting this piece of information because it doesn’t fit into your “the NBN will raise prices” view?

            Look at every response you’ve done recently. You’re just done a bullet by bullet attack on everyone who has any semblance of support for the NBN.

            It’s increasing obvious what you’re doing, and when your arguments as thin, case and point the two you just countered me with, as they have been lately you obviously aren’t here for reasoned debate.

            Learn to man up and accept three things:

            – Uncertainty. No one is infallible, and the information is emerging. There is two much data to accurately predict outcomes.
            – Opinions. People often post opinions. There is nothing wrong with that, and it can be insulting to argue against opinions, nor do they need to validate it. – Belittling: Right now, even when you do provide valid counter arguments its underneath a huge expansive post of niggles, and they get lost. Sometimes it’s just worth it to leave someone alone when they have a case of almost but not quite.

            Otherwise expect to be ranked into oblivion, and not because of the reasons (blind support for the NBN) you think.

          • To expand upon alain’s approach, from actuals in regards to my correspondence with him.. (this is nt a personal attack, it is fact)

            Where he has said completely contradictory claims and then when simply asked (as he does to everyone else’s claims) please explain (as I have done maybe 2 dozen times) he refuses, goes MIA or tries to say you have been answered.

            But when pushed and with nowhere to go, rather than manning-up, he inevitably just takes his bat & ball and refuses to correspond…as both he and another here have done…!

            LOL, there’s conviction for you!

          • @Nightkhaos

            “Yes they are equivalent”

            NO they are not equivalent, stop pretending that PSTN = VoIP in your blind zeal to try and spin the latest NBN Internode pricing .

            PSTN is NOT the same as VoIP for all the reasons many residents stay with PSTN and NOT go with VoIP even though they have ADSL, and for all the reasons ISP’s have warnings on their Naked DSL Plans about the limitations of VoIP in a emergency situation or loss of power or a back to base alarm installation, if PSTN = VOIP everyone that could get Naked DSL would have Naked DSL and Telstra would not have ONE PSTN wholesale or retail from a ADSL enabled exchange.

            Many use VoIP but they also love the PSTN fallback feature on their VoIP modem.

            I suppose you hoped I wouldn’t bring all that up,but you don’t get off that easy.

            “To, therefore, accurately represent the pricing discrepancy you MUST include this associated dependency. You have not, which is, as stated, misrepresentation.”

            But let’s compare apples with apples NK, not the chalk & cheese comparisons you love to misrepresent.

            “The fact that the government is committed to ensuring their is voice only options available is significant because that means we can expect there to be some and further more we have a price (no more than they pay now) to work with.”

            Yes but it depends if voice is thrown in with the EXISTING pricing or it is extra, and how the voice call charges is handled, but then you know it might be MORE expensive to have NBN Co voice + NBN Co BB than NBN Co BB + (pick a VoIP provider).

            Of course the NBN voice product should work the same as PSTN, back to base alarm, emergency calls and because it is hung of the ONT with its in built UPS you would hope it is protected against a residence losing power.

            “It’s increasing obvious what you’re doing”

            Well duh really, and it’s obvious what you are doing, and your argument is non existent, so where does that leave us?

            “as they have been lately you obviously aren’t here for reasoned debate.”

            Well I am, you just don’t not like the reasons.

            “Learn to man up and accept three things:”

            I’ll skip all your attempted amateur analysis of motive, which is off topic, totally irrelevant and frankly just plain embarrassing for you.

            “Otherwise expect to be ranked into oblivion,”

            Ranked into oblivion? – is that the best you can come up with as a ‘let’s nail alain strategy’, is that like the BS Whirlpool aura system where all the anti-Telstra and Internode supporters mass mark anyone down that disagrees or has the gall to argue with their beloved leader Hackett, as if it has some sort of meaning and statistical representation in the real world.

            LOL you are totally deluded.

          • Wow. Someone is getting frustrated.

            NO they are not equivalent, stop pretending that PSTN = VoIP in your blind zeal to try and spin the latest NBN Internode pricing .

            So they’re slightly different, so you can’t make emergency calls, so it uses a different protocol. They still do the same thing. They are still a viable substitute for a large percentage of the market.

            In the same way mobile broadband is considered a viable substitute for many light users to fixed-line Broadband. In that way the two services can be considered equivalent.

            Let’s look up the dictionary: corresponding in position, function, etc.: In some ways their prime minister is equivalent to our president.

            They are equivalent, what they aren’t is equal: as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with ): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.

            But let’s compare apples with apples NK, not the chalk & cheese comparisons you love to misrepresent

            We can’t. Because exactly equal plans don’t exist in the NBN world. The best comparison in pricing we have for the NBN pricing plans released so far is ULL pricing, NOT unbundled pricing, because as stated for the thousandth time that requires a PSTN service. If you neglect to get a PSTN service, you cannot get that service. I am trying to represent things accurately. I know the NBN is more expensive, that is not what I am trying to disprove, but the unbundled $29.95 plan from TPG is not in any way equivalent to the 12Mbps entry-level plan because it requires you to pay line rental even when you don’t want it.

            Yes but it depends if voice is thrown in with the EXISTING pricing or it is extra, and how the voice call charges is handled, but then you know it might be MORE expensive to have NBN Co voice + NBN Co BB than NBN Co BB + (pick a VoIP provider).

            We just don’t know, and also, had you been paying attention you would know that this is RSP specific. In the NBN world RSPs have to handle their own STS related systems, they do not wholesale off a single provider (Telstra). So if Internode is expensive that could just mean they don’t expect to get good margins off the voice services or they are reselling some other providers voice services at a premium.

            Again, we have an incomplete picture of pricing and you’re crying foul. Why don’t you wait? Or complain about the things we do know about, like the fact the Broadband is more expensive. Stop focusing on voice because we have limited information.

            Well duh really, and it’s obvious what you are doing, and your argument is non existent, so where does that leave us?

            My argument is non-existent? Right… I guess I can handle that. Afterall I did just laugh at your pathetic attempts to make arguments in other threads rather than replying. Still, if you insist on continuing along this line of debate there must be something to my arguments otherwise you just wouldn’t bother. Or maybe you just want to get the last word in.

            Well I am, you just don’t not like the reasons.

            Why don’t you enlighten me to those reasons? The reasons I see from you are a consistent scare campaign against the NBN supported by very little factual evidence. You focus on voice here when we have absolutely no information on voice because it’s a convenient target, rather than on what we do know, which is Broadband prices.

            I’ll skip all your attempted amateur analysis of motive, which is off topic, totally irrelevant and frankly just plain embarrassing for you.

            They weren’t motive analysis. There were suggestions on how to improve how others perceive you. Do you want to be taken seriously? Because I assure you there is a significant subset of regulars here that don’t take you seriously at all.

          • @Nightkhaos

            “So they’re slightly different,”

            So that’s the same ‘slightly’ different’ you said Internode pricing in general was to other ISP’s or is it slightly different to that slightly different?

            ” They are still a viable substitute for a large percentage of the market.”

            What large percentage of the market uses VoIP rather than PSTN? – and don’t back pedal with the weasel words it’s ‘ slightly different’.

            “In the same way mobile broadband is considered a viable substitute for many light users to fixed-line Broadband. In that way the two services can be considered equivalent.”

            Oh so you are dragging wireless in to try and get out of it, nice try, is that wireless is slightly different or just different?

            “Let’s look up the dictionary: corresponding in position, function, etc.: In some ways their prime minister is equivalent to our president.”

            Whoa WTF!! – I think your are getting your Uni work assignment mixed in with Delimiter responses, empty out your clip board buffer.

            “They are equivalent, what they aren’t is equal: as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with ): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.”

            Yeo it’s that darn clipboard buffer problem again, don’t hand your assignment in with all this Delimiter stuff in it by mistake, well you can keep mine, you will get 100%.

            “We can’t. Because exactly equal plans don’t exist in the NBN world.”

            But you have you said PSTN + ADSL = FTTH + VoIP you then back pedaled to oh there maybe slight differences, now you say we can’t compare at all, way to argue NK, like your style.

            ” The best comparison in pricing we have for the NBN pricing plans released so far is ULL pricing, NOT unbundled pricing, because as stated for the thousandth time that requires a PSTN service.”

            Yes I know for the thousandth time.

            ” If you neglect to get a PSTN service, you cannot get that service”

            Well duh really, any other ‘state the bleeding obvious’ statements up your sleeve?

            “but the unbundled $29.95 plan from TPG is not in any way equivalent to the 12Mbps entry-level plan because it requires you to pay line rental even when you don’t want it.”

            Who says they don’t want it, that is a PSTN service with all the benefits that a PSTN service brings you?

            “Again, we have an incomplete picture of pricing and you’re crying foul. Why don’t you wait? Or complain about the things we do know about, like the fact the Broadband is more expensive. “Stop focusing on voice because we have limited information.”

            I am focusing on voice because that’s what PSTN and VoIP gives you, you kept saying you have to factor in PSTN when comparing NBN Plans with ADSL, I did, but as you know there is more to the selection of PSTN than ‘I just need a line from Telstra for ADSL”.

            ” I did just laugh at your pathetic attempts to make arguments in other threads rather than replying.”

            Not as much as I get a laugh out of yours, even when I reply or not, especially when you get your Uni work mixed in with the responses.

            “The reasons I see from you are a consistent scare campaign against the NBN supported by very little factual evidence”

            Oh there is plenty of factual evidence, you just saying there isn’t doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, you just prefer to avoid it, and sometimes come up with outs like that’s a non-reply or *facepalm*, when it gets awkward which is often, and not just by me responding to you.

            “You focus on voice here when we have absolutely no information on voice”

            Oh we have no information when it suits you, but not when you focused on VoIP and NBN FTTH, that’s ok I take it?

            OFF TOPIC WAFFLE BIT: ( I don’t why I’m bothering with this rubbish, but here goes).

            ” There were suggestions on how to improve how others perceive you.”

            I don’t care on how others perceive me, it’s not a popularity contest, where only pro-NBN comment is welcome.

            “Because I assure you there is a significant subset of regulars here that don’t take you seriously at all.”

            oh no, what am I to do, that’s terrible, I better start spinning like a top and promote the NBN then, I can’t have that, that has me converted!

            Are you in anyway serious with that rubbish? – I think you are deluded enough to think it is serious comment. ‘significant subset of regulars’ lol , I must remember that, along with ‘slight differences’, ‘non-reply’ and *facepalm*.

          • No one can answer his questions you twat. I answered them, and then he ripped into them because he didn’t like the fact that:

            a) VoIP is an equivalent service to PSTN and can be used as a substitute for that reason, it just isn’t an equal service because it lacks emergency calls, which is obvious to everyone with half a brain.

            b) He continues to go along this stupid misrepresentation of prices line where an unbundled service is somehow comparable to a service that requires no phone line to purchase and can’t understand why the best comparison is currently ULL pricing.

            C) His posts are full of niggles and insults.

            Did you even read his posts at all or are you just taking his side because you don’t like my position?

          • @Nightkhaos

            You should have stayed away while you were behind.

            “a) VoIP is an equivalent service to PSTN and can be used as a substitute for that reason”

            No it isn’t, so why isn’t every residence that has ADSL on VoIP, and why isn’t Telstra customers retail and wholesale PSTN customer numbers at zero on ADSL enabled exchanges, I asked that one of you before, you ignored it, I expect you will ignore it again.

            “it just isn’t an equal service because it lacks emergency calls”

            I like that way you explain why it isn’t a equal service then after explaining why it isn’t then say it is in the same sentence – brilliant!

            You also overlook it is power backed up when the power goes off to the residence, also tell me what are the regulations pertaining to VoIP up time and response to fault calls by the supplier in comparison to the legislated customer guarantee regulations on Telstra to repair PSTN faults within certain time periods?

            Here read all about PSTN guarantees.

            http://www.telstra.com.au/abouttelstra/commitments/csg/

            What are the equivalent legislated customer guarantees on VoIP?

            VoIP is NOT equal to PSTN, even the suppliers selling VoIP tell you that in their T&C before you sign up.

            “b) He continues to go along this stupid misrepresentation of prices line where an unbundled service is somehow comparable to a service that requires no phone line to purchase and can’t understand why the best comparison is currently ULL pricing.”

            There is no misrepresentation, a residences choice of PSTN is more than just a line for ADSL,so therefore Naked DSL is not the best comparison.

            “C) His posts are full of niggles and insults.”

            ‘ which is obvious to everyone with half a brain’

            ‘stupid misrepresentation’

            oops, they are yours, blatant in your face hypocrisy is always a feature of your posts NK, you are not going to change a habit of a lifetime now I see.

          • alain said – “You should have stayed away while you were behind”.

            Just like YOU do with ME lainy ;-)

          • No it isn’t, so why isn’t every residence that has ADSL on VoIP, and why isn’t Telstra customers retail and wholesale PSTN customer numbers at zero on ADSL enabled exchanges, I asked that one of you before, you ignored it, I expect you will ignore it again.

            I didn’t say perfect substitute. I said substitute. For the same reason mobile broadband hasn’t completely eroded the demand for fixed-line broadband, VoIP won’t completely eroded the demand for PSTN.

            I ignored that statement because it made absolutely no sense. SUVs are substitutes for sedans and people still buy sedans. If it was a perfect substitute the situations you outlined might happen, but even then, it might not, because consumers aren’t rational. Why do people buy BMW 3 series when a much cheaper vehicle like a Subaru Impreza can act as a perfect substitute?

            I like that way you explain why it isn’t a equal service then after explaining why it isn’t then say it is in the same sentence – brilliant!

            Equivalent and equal do not mean the same thing. I outlined this above with the dictionary definitions and you told me I got my university notes mixed in with my response instead of acknowledging the difference in definition, and what that means in the context of my argument. See above where I explain the difference between perfect substitute (equal) and substitute (equivalent, in a specific subset of functions, which you can deduce from context).

            You also overlook it is power backed up when the power goes off to the residence, also tell me what are the regulations pertaining to VoIP up time and response to fault calls by the supplier in comparison to the legislated customer guarantee regulations on Telstra to repair PSTN faults within certain time periods?

            This flaws squarely into the equivalent vs equal point, and is an extension of the limitations of VoIP which are inferred by the fact it is VoIP. I didn’t ignore it, I just chose not to response to it because you’re right, you don’t have the power loss guarantees or regulations when it comes to VoIP. What do you want me to acknowledge and obvious point that has absolutely no affect on my original argument? I can do that easily. The sky is blue, there, I admit it.

            VoIP is NOT equal to PSTN, even the suppliers selling VoIP tell you that in their T&C before you sign up.

            That is what I have been saying. It is however equivalent in that it provides you with a) a phone number b) the ability to make and receive phone calls. Making the areas of equivalence explicit was something I thought I wouldn’t need to do, but clearly you need that level of detail to understand the difference, so there it is. By the way, did you know the sky only appears blue during the daytime? Amazing.

            There is no misrepresentation, a residences choice of PSTN is more than just a line for ADSL,so therefore Naked DSL is not the best comparison.

            Let me explain this to you one more time: Internode currently does not offer STS on their plans. Because of this you can’t bundle an STS phone with their plan. So it does not match to LLS. Further, in order to get the LLS plan you linked to you must sign up for a STS service otherwise you will need to apply to the ULL services.

            The fact is we do not have a direct comparison in pricing, but it is obvious that to get Broadband, and JUST Broadband you will need to pay more than $29.95. To do that you need to use the ULL pricing. Hence, in the context of your original comparison which was all about the minimum price you want to pay. The minimum price to get Broadband over ADSL2+ in Australia is not $29.95, because to pay for that plan you need to purchase a STS.

            How is that so hard for you to comprehend? I thought it was pretty clear cut.

            oops, they are yours, blatant in your face hypocrisy is always a feature of your posts NK, you are not going to change a habit of a lifetime now I see.

            Okay. I’ll admit I have also been niggling and insulting you back here Alain, but that is in response to you. I’ve been taught to fight fire with fire. If all you’re going to do in one reply to me is completely ignore my dictionary definitions and how they apply to the difference between equivalent and equal then I’m going to call you out on that.

            You should have stayed away while you were behind.

            Behind what? I actually don’t get how after all this you somehow think you’re winning. Are you going to accuse me of back-peddling again? Or accuse me of getting my University notes confused with this post? Or are you actually going to concede my points so we can move on with our lives?

          • NK… as you kindly gave me advice previously and at the time I didn’t quite see it as the positive advice it actually was, so kudos, I would now like to reciprocate…!

            Seems you are discovering just why I do what I do, and why I have found it better to simply make fun of those who irrationally look at 5% of the info and form a conclusion, rather than trying to rationally debate the issues with these irrationals! …

            You will note previously in relation to the fixed/mobile data, our friend (and I say that loosely) couldn’t, or refused to differentiate the nuances (and his clone jumped in too)… Well, same here… it simply does not suit his Telstra/political agenda, so he argues over pedantics, semantics and one small section of an over all bigger picture.

            Thing is, people like this see people like us (and I know you wish to distance your self from my, facetious prodding, but…I am the only one here actually going into bat for you, as I believe you are right) as a threat to their politics/wallet and will never cede to rational common sense, if such rational common sense is in opposition to their politics/wallet!

            I bet, if you came here and said VoIP is NOT equivalent to PSTN… because of his perceived threat from you to his wallet/agenda, he would have gone the complete opposite and argued that PSTN and VoIP are equivalent …LOL

          • @Nightkhaos

            “I didn’t say perfect substitute. I said substitute”

            Wow here it comes the dodging the weaving the playing with semantics, so we have ‘slight discrepancy’ now it’s ‘perfect substitute’ vs ‘substitute’, the word tap dance is endless.

            “VoIP won’t completely eroded the demand for PSTN.”

            That’s not we are talking about, your assertion repeated multiple times is that VoIP = PSTN, when I point out it isn’t and why you change the goal posts to demand for VoIP vs demand for PSTN, complete change of topic when it gets too hard.

            “I ignored that statement because it made absolutely no sense.”

            Oh that’s the reason is it , yeah sure NK whatever!

            “Equivalent and equal do not mean the same thing.”

            More semantic tap dancing, the whites of the eyes are showing NK, your twists and turns relying on the Dictionary are hilarious.

            ” The sky is blue, there, I admit it.”

            That’s as near as you will allow yourself to say your were WRONG I guess.

            “VoIP is NOT equal to PSTN, even the suppliers selling VoIP tell you that in their T&C before you sign up.

            followed by your comment:

            “That is what I have been saying.”

            You have? I didn’t see it, you are now when it’s pointed out to you, stop with the BS about that’s ‘what I have been saying’.

            ” By the way, did you know the sky only appears blue during the daytime? Amazing.”

            umm err what? yeah ok whatever, I assume you are getting a bit frantic in trying to write a response, any response.

            “Let me explain this to you one more time: Internode currently does not offer STS on their plans.”

            You don’t have to explain ‘one more time’ because I pointed it out to you in the first place and told you about the UNI-V port not being used yet, because you said you didn’t know if a phone could be plugged into that port on the Internode $10 VoIP plan that comes with their NBN BB.

            “How is that so hard for you to comprehend? I thought it was pretty clear cut.”

            Because ADSL + PSTN does not = Naked DSL , we were talking about unbundled ADSL with a voice service vs NBN FTtH with VoIP.

            “Behind what?”

            The eight ball, you are now so far under you think the only hope is to stand on the Macquarie Dictionary frantically flicking through definitions in the vain hope it gets you out of the mire.

            It doesn’t, it’s quicksand.

          • LMFAO… see what I mean NK, it’s like trying to debate with a mixture or Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Homer Simpson and Mr Bean…LOL!

          • I see exactly what you mean RS. Now, despite the fact I explained in clear unambiguous terms the difference between equal and equivalent, despite the fact I have explained in clear and unambiguous terms why he is misrepresenting pricing by using the LLS price, he accuses me of semantic tap dancing and being in quicksand.

            Alain: I have explained twice now the difference between equivalent and equal. Take or leave it but don’t insult me by ignoring it.

            And how can you claim to be comparing unbundled ADSL and voice vs NBN and VoIP when you consistently don’t include the price of voice in your analysis? That is where your misrepresentation lies, as I have asserted many times, as well as suggesting ULL as a better fit because under the NBN there isn’t an STS requirement, nor STS available. Pick your poison, but don’t stick to this $29.99 bullshit.

            We can keep this up all day, personally I love to see you big a bigger hole for yourself but I got better things to do on a Sunday.

          • WOW. i didn’t realise the NodePhone bundled with Internode’s recent NBN pricing was only VoIP!!

            i thought it was a proper UNI-V voice service…. shit…. that means their pricing is CRAP (as opposed to EXCELLENT) after all… they must be desperately trying hard to find savings in their pricing model.

            most interesting….. thanks for pointing it out alain… i completely missed it.. just assumed it was a proper NBN voice service

          • funny thing that, ive been reading the ‘node NBN thread over @ wp and while there are a few people who – again- are not factoring in the cost of a line rental into their service spend and just comparing the data -data charges, and a few who genuinely dont like the setup as it is TODAY (and it guaranteed will change over time) ….. i dont see people ‘giving them heaps on that already. ‘ theres a few whingers as there always is but nothing to the extent youve made out. but then you have a very different set of eyes to the rest of us Alain, seeing negatives arouind every corner. must suck to be a constant pessmist like that?

            i personally feel that first release pricing – and from one isp – is indicative only. its a new market and there will be some tweaking as it sets up, but you dont make sales if youve pitched too high and dont adjust when its clear youve done that – you dont keep a business driving off customers. but having only one set of figures on the board its too early to say if thats the case here.

            on that basis, as far as Malcolm is concerned, a data point of only one really isnt enough for him to make these kinds – any kind of solid conclusions. i definitely think its a case of wait and see, and have a look at how it all shakes out once there are other players on the field. im not as concerned with feel good reporting as i am with accurate comparisons and good data, particularly when it falls out of the mouth of a parlimentarian. bashing the NBN off one data point and without including line rentals for ‘equivalent’ ADSL product is disingenous at best.

          • @nonny-moose

            ” theres a few whingers as there always is”

            You can try and dilute it all you want but that NBN thread in Whirlpool coupled with the thread on the recent ADSL ‘adjustments’ which has now gone to Part 2 with Part 1 stopped at 70 pages 1387 posts and read by 22512 indicates ‘heaps’ are not too happy to me.

            But whether negative comment translates into moving to another ISP is another issue.

            “i personally feel that first release pricing – and from one isp – is indicative only.”

            So do I and I said so, I look forward to the iiNet and TPG plans in particular, another poster further on in this blog stated Dodo will undercut Internode like Dodo undercuts Internode and most all other ISP’s on ADSL, which will be interesting to see.

            Also nonny-moose you cannot look at the NBN Internode plans in isolation without taking into account what Hackett said in his blog and repeated here in Delimiter explaining his pricing and problems with the NBN Co modeling, it’s a total media release package

            “on that basis, as far as Malcolm is concerned, a data point of only one really isnt enough for him to make these kinds – any kind of solid conclusions. ”

            It’s called political opportunism, it’s used by both parties since politics was invented, get used to it, it’s probably not good that Dodo or TPG for example were not the first kids on the block with the new NBN pricing but they were not, that coupled with Hacketts blog on the wholesale NBN pricing is only making it worse for Labor and the NBN Co or better from the Coalition point of view, depends how you look at it.

            Of course Turnbull would run with it, it would be stupid not to, if Conroy was in opposition he would do the exact same thing..

            ” bashing the NBN off one data point and without including line rentals for ‘equivalent’ ADSL product is disingenous at best.”

            Well see my other posts with Nightkhaos on that, the fact that the NBN Co has decided not to release wholesale voice plans yet, unbundled or bundled with the data packages doesn’t help their cause very much.

  5. How about comparing like with like.
    Naked DSL.
    ATM I’m force to pay an extra $25/month on top of any ADSL plan.
    This both at home where the phone isn’t plugged in, and at my place of work where we have a digital PABX and again don’t even need the lines. The get the sort of upload bandwidth I can get from the mid point NBN plans I’ve gotten quotes from $1400/month – $14,000/month which I would imagine is outside the bounds of most SMEs. This is less than 2km from the city center of a capital city, and I have dark fibre(not NBN) running from the building to the city exchange already.

    How about instead of bitching about what the government is doing you work with them to make it better. The single easiest way for the CLP to stop the carbon tax is for the CLP to work with the government on there primary policies like the NBN so they don’t have the rely on the greens balance of power.

  6. Correct me if I am wrong but the NBNCo estimates in their corporate plan last year was based on the reduced number of POIs. The ACCC decision to increase the POIs came after this plan was released. NBNCo’s AVC and CVC prices has not changed since this decision so the increase in POIs would obviously increase the cost of plans on NBN.

    refer to this post by Jim Kellet, internode rep
    http://whrl.pl/RcPDGN

    “Recall however the NBN originally was a complete solution – from 14 CBD-ish POIs to every premises, at one fixed price (ie “last mile” plus “middle mile”). That’s perhaps why the $20,000/Gbps/month CVC didn’t seem so mad at the time!

    Now thanks to the 121 POI decision, the NBN is just the last mile – each RSP has to pay for 121 “middle miles”. That loads up the costs per end-user; and more so in regional areas. And what happened to the CVC price; now that it is only a last mile & delivers less? Nothing at all – it is still $20,000/Gbps/month!”

    I think someone should ask NBNCo to revise their estimates on their corporate plan since the ACCC decision.

  7. Turnbull is a moron.

    What we have right now, is BMW first off the line to get the hybrid car out, and Turnbull is dismissing the Kia’s, Hyundai’s, Fords etc as ‘too expensive’ purely because of what the BMW costs.

    Dodo recently announced they WILL sell sub $40 per month NBN plans, that will be cheaper than anyone can get now. Furthermore they said they will still sell their unlimited plans over the NBN.

    Internodes NBN prices are more than NBNco drew up for their estimates? No shit, Internode are a premium provider.

    Get BMW’s prices and they are probably well in excess of the average car price, because your not buying a shitbox.

    Internode’s 12/1 prices are exactly the same as their ADSL2+ prices, and most people know, the people who get more than 12/1 on ADSL2+ (like me) are in the minority.

    For just $10 more, you can get speeds noone on ADSL2+ is getting, and circa 6 times the upload speed.

    I also found the attack Turnbull made on Conroy VERY cheap, as much as I don’t like Conroy – he HAS been listening, but the ACCC sided with Telstra/Optus and if Conroy was to OVERSTEP the ACCC’s ruling, that would be a media field day.

    • @Gav

      “Turnbull is dismissing the Kia’s, Hyundai’s, Fords etc as ‘too expensive’ purely because of what the BMW costs.”

      No he hasn’t, we don’t have any cheaper than Internode pricing yet to be dismissed.

      “Dodo recently announced they WILL sell sub $40 per month NBN plans, that will be cheaper than anyone can get now. Furthermore they said they will still sell their unlimited plans over the NBN.”

      Great look forward to them.

      “Internodes NBN prices are more than NBNco drew up for their estimates? No shit, Internode are a premium provider.”

      Jeez I thought that was BigPond. :)

      “Get BMW’s prices and they are probably well in excess of the average car price, because your not buying a shitbox.”

      No indeed, not sure which ISP’s you alluding as being ‘shitboxes’, anyone cheaper than Internode I guess. :)

      “Internode’s 12/1 prices are exactly the same as their ADSL2+ prices, and most people know, the people who get more than 12/1 on ADSL2+ (like me) are in the minority.”

      Yeah they are NOW, Internode adjusted them to make them more like the NBN prices they knew they were releasing this week. LOL

      “For just $10 more, you can get speeds noone on ADSL2+ is getting, and circa 6 times the upload speed.”

      … and if you are happy with ADSL2+ pricing and quota?

      “but the ACCC sided with Telstra/Optus and if Conroy was to OVERSTEP the ACCC’s ruling”

      I am sure that ACCC will be happy with your glib analysis on their findings, and I am not sure what ruling you have in mind that sides with the big two, but I think you are getting your analysis a bit muddled.

  8. Had a quick check through and so far couldn’t find anyone saying they are drooling to jump on Internode’s plans. It might be early times and maybe other provides will be cheaper but I cannot see the enthusiasm for NBN that will produce the % customer uptake to provide NBN Co the returns it expected.
    Most seem to say that is because the costs are higher than expected. So I guess we will have to rely on this new NBN Co to absorb these costs as is customary with privately owned Cos. This will be much like the extra Carbon Tax which will only hit the 500 Polluters. They will absorb the costs and reduce their profits. So don’t worry there is no way these Cos will pass on these extra costs to their customers … right?
    So just like the Pink bats and the Laptop for every student this will turn into another white elephant that will be either funded from the bottomless tax pool or the limitless debt.

  9. That Alain, he’s quite a card. So much tap-dancing, so little rhythm.

    And those gems from Jmazz, straight out of the Liberal Party headquarters sound-bite sheet. He left off ‘Stop the Boats’.

    Drones.

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