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  • Blog, Telecommunications - Written by on Sunday, July 14, 2013 23:56 - 155 Comments

    It’s on: Husic takes the NBN fight to Turnbull

    boxingmatch

    blog To those of you who have been spoiling to see a head-on debate between charismatic Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull and young gun Labor MP Ed Husic, following the latter’s appointment under Kevin Rudd as Parliamentary Secretary for Broadband, you need wait no longer. Last Friday morning, Turnbull and Husic went head to head on the issue of the NBN on ABC local radio in Darwin, in an event associated with the launch of NBN infrastructure in the city. You can listen to the full debate online by clicking here.

    To your writer’s mind, both politicians were convincing on different fronts. Turnbull went on the attack regarding the ongoing misleading claims by Labor that it will cost up to $5,000 to connect to the Coalition’s version of the NBN, and the Liberal MP was convincing and clear with the facts in his analysis of the situation. In addition, Turnbull’s argument regarding the faster-to-market nature of FTTN and its ability to serve most people’s needs was also well-worth listening to and demonstrates why your writer continues to argue that the Coalition’s NBN policy is a sensible one, despite the fact that we prefer Labor’s version overall.

    However, Husic also demonstrated a fine command of the NBN dynamic, and of course his argument that Labor’s NBN will deliver a much stronger grade of infrastructure to all Australians was very persuasive. Both politicians were extremely passionate, knowledgable, and were able to communicate complex technical arguments in layman’s language. It was a great debate, and we hope to see more such as the election cycle rolls on. Turnbull’s made some very valuable points in the NBN debate to date, and while Labor’s NBN policy has always been the better option on paper, it has suffered recently in the public perception due to project delays and an inability for its political masters to communicate its aims to the public. On the other hand, it looks like Husic has already started doing a bang-up job on holding Turnbull to account in terms of some of the more obvious holes in the Coalition’s policy, for all that he’s coming into this struggle a little late. Let’s hope both sides keep the fight clean and energetic. Game on!

    Image credit: Shinkai, Creative Commons

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    1. clownface
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:44 am | Permalink |

      Turnbulloz is in the shame file and that is all she wrote!

    2. Soth
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 8:51 am | Permalink |

      Oh god such a miss matched fight that was.

    3. Goresh
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 9:08 am | Permalink |

      “your writer continues to argue that the Coalition’s NBN policy is a sensible one”

      I guess on this point we will have to agree to disagree, spending more on TCO for a vastly inferior service simply makes no sense to me, particularly when even the people promoting it admit that they will eventually have to replace it with thebetter product in the medium, if not the short term anyway.

      • Woolfe
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 10:14 am | Permalink |

        He does also say “despite the fact that we prefer Labor’s version overall.”

        And on that I agree with him. In that if we don’t get Labor’s vision, then at least we will get something that actually should work, and move us forward nationally.

        Of course it is a vastly inferior service, and is likely to cost us more in the long term. But it is better than going nowhere.

      • Markie
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 11:17 am | Permalink |

        Beat me the punch here Goresh.

        Renai, how can a person of your intellect and apparent intimate knowledge of the industry ever consider that a largely 25mps be enough ‘for most people’?

        Why are so many happily settling for second best when we currently have the opportunity for a better best?

        My son-in-law is a senior project director for one of the telco biggies in the US, and during a recent visit he was aghast at a) the politicisation of a major infrastructure and b) why we are even arguing the toss over 25mps in the first place. In most of Europe and the USA 125mps is the NORM.

        Given that increased and efficient productivity is the main benefit here, I have to agree with him.

        Also being a bit of conspiracy theorist, at the back of my mind is lurking Murdoch’s pressures on the opposition not to install ‘too good’ a system so he can continue to rule the paytv market…

        • Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:00 pm | Permalink |

          Read my article on the subject.

          • Senectus
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:27 pm | Permalink |

            you couldn’t even post a link to it?

            • Woolfe
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:32 pm | Permalink |

              Are you serious? Its in the article above!!!

            • Senectus
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:32 pm | Permalink |

              ignore that, just noticed its in the article above.

            • Woolfe
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink |

              Its in the article above!

              • Woolfe
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:34 pm | Permalink |

                Sorry WordPress just wierded out on me saying I had posted twice but not showing… Odd

        • Fibroid
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:03 pm | Permalink |

          @Markie

          ‘ why we are even arguing the toss over 25mps in the first place. In most of Europe and the USA 125mps is the NORM.’

          Hey that looks good as a sound bite Markie until you find out what the speeds in Europe and the USA really are:

          USA average is 7.2Mbps
          UK average is 6.3Mbps
          Netherlands average is 8.5Mps

          What is also interesting is this statistic.

          “While superfast fibre lobbyists continue to try and push nations around the world into deploying more nimble broadband networks, a report out today showed a 7 per cent slip in average global connection speeds between the second and third quarter of 2012.”

          http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/24/akamai_state_of_the_internet_report/

          So yes a minimum of 25 Mbps for Australia is worth arguing for don’t you think?

          • Tinman_au
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:12 pm | Permalink |

            Nice argument Fibroid, “because everyone is slower, we only need to add a little bit more” is effectively it, yeah?

            • Fibroid
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:26 pm | Permalink |

              That wasn’t the point of my post at all, as you know.

              I was arguing against this assertion ‘ In most of Europe and the USA 125mps is the NORM.’

              Nothing like facts to dispel conjecture eh?

              • Alex
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:10 pm | Permalink |

                @ Fibroid…

                “Nothing like facts to dispel conjecture eh?”

                Indeed and when the facts arrive that’s when you normally disappear (and that IS a fact ;) …

                Shhh don’t mention Asia in you comparisons…

                Anyway, here’s a few interesting tidbits since you like to use overseas as a guide…

                “Countries such as Switzerland and Norway, which started to deploy FttN a decade or so ago, are now upgrading these networks to FttH. Ukrtelecom (Ukraine) suspended plans to deploy a large-scale FttN network, instead switching to FttH. The company’s studies showed that deploying FttH was more cost effective than FttN in some conditions, and was overall cheaper and more future-proof in the long term. FttH networks in the Netherlands and France have seen significantly higher uptakes of their services over the last 12 months”

                http://www.buddeblog.com.au/frompaulsdesk/the-end-of-hfc-and-fttn-networks-is-approaching/#sthash.RNSZa7z2.dpuf

                As I mentioned before – FttN was a good idea 10 years ago, it is ridiculous now (even more so with FttP already underway and the public monies very similar) and the only people who refuse to accept it are those who’s immovable ideology won’t allow them to…IMO.

            • Fibroid
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:28 pm | Permalink |

              Oh I forgot, so 25Mbps is just a’ little bit more’ than 7.2Mbps or 6.3Mbps – umm yeah ok

              • Tinman_au
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:48 pm | Permalink |

                25Mbps is 40 times slower than my home network, but you laud that speed and try to make out we should be grateful to get even 25Mbps?

                • Hubert Cumberdale
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:04 pm | Permalink |

                  “25Mbps is 40 times slower than my home network”

                  This puts it all into perspective doesn’t tinman. I don’t think people even appreciate how dirt slow even 100mbps is. We live in an age of SSD’s and 1gbit LAN connections and yet the coalition are only committing to 25mbps down. They wont even commit to that upstream. It tells us how inadequate their plan really is.

                  I wonder how many of those opposed to the proper NBN plan would be willing to “throttle” their home and work LAN connections to 25mbps. It’s all that’s needed apparently so presumably they should have little trouble adapting…

                • Fibroid
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:27 pm | Permalink |

                  @Tinman_au

                  ’25Mbps is 40 times slower than my home network’

                  jeez so it is, but that’s not your original assertion which was:

                  ‘because everyone is slower, we only need to add a little bit more”

                  My point remains:

                  ‘so 25Mbps is just a’ little bit more’ than 7.2Mbps or 6.3Mbps’ is it?’

                  …because you let that go through to the keeper and went onto another speed discussion altogether.

                  Lose a argument then pretend it was about something else, par for the course.

                  • Alex
                    Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:54 pm | Permalink |

                    Seriously… you hand pick a few “average figures” from abroad to argue FttN is good enough for Australia’s future?

                    Really…? Ok let’s play that game…

                    Japan –

                    FTTP, often called FTTH in Japan, was first introduced in 1999, but substantial growth did not start until 2001. In 2003-2004, FTTH grew at a remarkable rate, while DSL’s growth slowed. DSL reached its peak with the peak in March 2006. 10.5 million FTTH connections were reported in September 2007.

                    On 17 September 2008, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications reported that for the first time, the number of FTTH connections (13.08 million connections) eclipsed that of DSL (12.29 million connections) and became the largest method of broadband connection at 45% of the total compared to DSL at 42%. In the report, the number of FTTH connections grew by 929,681 during the period from March to June 2008, while the number of DSL connections declined by 420,706.

                    FTTH first started with 10 Mbit/s (end-user rate) passive optical network (PON) by Nippon Telegraph and Telephone (NTT), and 100 Mbit/s (end-user rate) with GEPON (Gigabit Ethernet-PON) or broadband PON in 2006. PON is the major system for FTTH by NTT, but some competitive services present 1 Gbit/s (at end-user rate) with SS (Single Star). Currently, most people use 100 Mbit/s”

                    But then I suppose 100Mbps is only a little more than 6.3 or 7.2Mbps eh?

                    • Fibroid
                      Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:17 pm | Permalink |

                      ‘But then I suppose 100Mbps is only a little more than 6.3 or 7.2Mbps eh?’

                      But if you are going to quote Japanese figures from that report to compare with AVERAGE speeds of 6.3 or 7.2Mbps the AVERAGE speed in Japan is 10.5Mbps, not 100Mbps.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:38 pm | Permalink |

                        Another spoon…

                        “Currently, most people use 100 Mbit/s”

                        You may again swallow.

          • grump3
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:06 pm | Permalink |

            @ Fibroiod,
            “So yes a minimum of 25 Mbps for Australia is worth arguing for don’t you think?”

            Assuming you’ve heard of ‘The Cloud’ I guess you’ll be comfortable with 25 download/? upload speeds when backing up your data then?

            • Fibroid
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:15 pm | Permalink |

              So what’s the upload speed to the Cloud when your average download speed is 6.3Mbps or 7.2Mbps, and why we should be concerned about upload speeds in comparison where the download speed is a MINIMUM of 25Mbps up to 100Mbps?

          • Goresh
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 6:00 pm | Permalink |

            “While superfast fibre lobbyists continue to try and push nations around the world into deploying more nimble broadband networks, a report out today showed a 7 per cent slip in average global connection speeds between the second and third quarter of 2012.”

            There are only two possible interpretations of this and both are arguments in favour of FTTP.

            1/ The copper component of FTTN is now failing so quickly it is dragging down average data rates that new FTTP roll-outs cannot compensate.

            2/ Because of the fact that Akamai is measuring a single session rather than the totality of the customers data link, the measured rate for this session is being dragged down by multiple simultaneous sessions indicating that individual customer’s data services are not broad enough to handle the requirements of multiple users/sessions indicating that a broader pipe to the customer is required.

            • Alex
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 8:30 pm | Permalink |

              Point 1 especially is a ripper IMO Goresh…

              The irony of the FttN crowd using averaged speeds is of course, the averaged speeds are being dragged down by the old, obsolete copper technologies…

              • Fibroid
                Posted 16/07/2013 at 8:09 am | Permalink |

                Interesting, how do you and Goresh know that in the face of increasing fibre rollouts the world over replacing copper based ADSL that the ‘copper’ is the one that is dragging it down?

                • Alex
                  Posted 16/07/2013 at 8:41 am | Permalink |

                  1 + 1 = ?

                  Give it a shot.

                  • Fibroid
                    Posted 16/07/2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink |

                    The =? I assume means you have no idea

                    • Alex
                      Posted 16/07/2013 at 3:21 pm | Permalink |

                      Another spoon perhaps?

                • clownface
                  Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:42 pm | Permalink |

                  Not even mad professor Abbott would nod accordingly with Mr Fibroid lulz

                  • Alex
                    Posted 16/07/2013 at 10:31 pm | Permalink |

                    + lots …lol

                • Goresh
                  Posted 17/07/2013 at 5:01 pm | Permalink |

                  “how do you and Goresh know that in the face of increasing fibre rollouts the world over replacing copper based ADSL that the ‘copper’ is the one that is dragging it down?”

                  Because even you admit that fibre offers a wider pipe and hence the capability of faster data rates than is possible over copper. Or are you seriously going to try to argue that fibre offers worse performance than an equivalent length of copper, in which case telco’s should/would be pulling out all that fibre backhaul they installed in order to replace it with a single copper pair.

          • MrMr
            Posted 17/07/2013 at 12:57 pm | Permalink |

            Not sure why average current speeds elsewhere in the world are relevant. These averages capture a range of tech, including ADSL. Surely we should only be looking at the speeds offered under FFTX rollouts? Having certain average speeds currently available is in no way relevant to what speeds we should target with an FTTX rollout.

    4. dJOS
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 9:17 am | Permalink |

      I thought Husic did a good job for his 1st engagement but could have been a bit more aggressive in a few points that he let Turbull appear to win.

      Eg he didn’t challenge the 60billion cheaper BS as aggressively as he should have IMO.

    5. Tinman_au
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 10:11 am | Permalink |

      Albo’s got a good team….I think Malcolm’s job became a lot harder with this change over.

    6. Woolfe
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 10:12 am | Permalink |

      Wouldn’t it have been nice if this had of all been Bipartisan and both parties had been working together for the good of the nation. Instead of automatically naysaying.

      Sigh…..

      • dJOS
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 10:13 am | Permalink |

        +60 Billion!

      • Matthew
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 11:05 am | Permalink |

        Sadly, this has been the main form of australian politics for awhile now. Naysaying is most of what they know.
        Its especially bad in the shameful advertisements which get placed on TV “Do you REALLY know XXXX politician?”. This style of advertisement is a disgrace IMHO.

        • Woolfe
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:38 pm | Permalink |

          I personally am an advocate of political advertising should only be about policy and should be positive.

          If it doesn’t meet those tests, then it should not come out of public funds.

      • Fibroid
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:45 pm | Permalink |

        @Woolfe

        ‘Wouldn’t it have been nice if this had of all been Bipartisan…..”

        What you mean by Bipartisan is it has to be the Labor NBN, which is actually being partisan.

        • Alex
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:30 pm | Permalink |

          Or…

          In the lead up to the 2007 election when Labor were talking FttN… instead of the then Howard government referring to it as fraudband, perhaps they could have had a bi-partisan approach then?

          Sadly 6 years later (i.e. too late) the Coalition finally adopt fraudband (their own words) as their policy… *sigh*

        • Woolfe
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:36 pm | Permalink |

          Not at all, I mean Birpartisan in the sense of lets look at the best solution to move us into the future. Ie the long term growth of the nations data network.

          So looking at the best technologies available, and then selecting the one that gives the best bang for buck as a long term solution. (Long term being 20-30+ years)

          Having both sides in the “technical” discussions. Both sides in on the “economic” discussions and both sides in on the “implementation” discussions, so that if the government changes, then the whole thing continues with little to no disruption and the country as a whole benefits.

          I do not need to speak of the technologies available at the moment, as it is clear to anyone willing to look objectively which technology is best long term, the economy of it is another matter, but I am not qualified to argue that personally.

          And I would prefer it if you took your insinuations elsewhere. Some of us are not here with an agenda, we simply want to see the best for this country.

          • Alex
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:58 pm | Permalink |

            +1

          • Fibroid
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:09 pm | Permalink |

            @Woolfe

            ‘Not at all, I mean Birpartisan in the sense of lets look at the best solution to move us into the future. ‘

            What particular solution is that then, because we know what the Labor policy is and they are not going to change, Albanese said that after being appointed to Conroy’s position.

            The Coalition policy released in April is what they will take into the election, I don’t see them changing that at all before the election.

            If the Coaltion win it will be their policy, if Labor win they will continue on as is.

            .

            • Fibroid
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:26 pm | Permalink |

              ‘And I would prefer it if you took your insinuations elsewhere. Some of us are not here with an agenda, we simply want to see the best for this country.’

              BTW Sorry I misread your intent from a previous post , I take back you only want a Labor NBN solution outcome.

            • Woolfe
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:40 pm | Permalink |

              Fibroid, are you genuinely unaware of what I am saying, or are you just being obtuse.

              My first comment was a simple regret that both parties can’t get together to make a plan for the betterment of the nation.

              My second comment was in regards to your obviously inflammatory response to me.
              “@Woolfe
              ‘Wouldn’t it have been nice if this had of all been Bipartisan…..”
              What you mean by Bipartisan is it has to be the Labor NBN, which is actually being partisan.”

              In which I responded explaining what I meant by Bipartisan.

              However apparently you can’t get beyond the fact that someone may simply regret the lack of real bipartisanship by either party and instead you are simply attempting to troll me into stating something about current polices which, as you have pointed out, is clearly pointless.

              Therefore my response to you sir is simply “Go bother someone else”
              Good day to you.

              Renai Please consider the above as an official complaint by me regarding Fibroid’s behaviour, and I apologise for being drawn into it further.

              • Alex
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:02 pm | Permalink |

                + many

    7. GENIII
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 10:39 am | Permalink |

      Looking at the current polling results i think again the NBN could cost the LNP the election, damn i hope so.

      Maybe they should change their motto to “LNP losing the unloseable elections since 2007″

      HAHA.

      • Fibroid
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:15 pm | Permalink |

        So Gillard didn’t have to go, it was all about the NBN – yeah ok, so the poll boost post Rudd getting the leadership was just a coincidence?.

        • GENIII
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:30 pm | Permalink |

          I meant that if they (LNP) changed their stance re NBN i would vote for them in an instant. I really don’t care who Labor have at the helm, they could have Humprey B. Bear running the show for all i care, i would still vote for them whilst they have the “real” NBN as a policy. Not Mals piece of shit network that he wants to inflict on us. I dont care if Renai thinks it’s a workable plan, i and many many many others think it’s a piece of shit.

          I’m still a believer that the LNP will scrap the NBN if (and a big IF now) they take office after the election.

          Suck it up fibroid the LNP are gunna lose another one lol.

          • Fibroid
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:41 pm | Permalink |

            Suck it up Fibroid?, what makes you think I want the LNP to win the election?

            This is what Labor has to do to win the election and govern in their own right, they cannot lose ANY of the seats they have now and they have to gain at least two, two of the three independents that got Labor in after the hung election last time are resigning, chances are those two seats will revert back to LNP.

            Don’t wave the NBN Labor flag quite yet.

            • GENIII
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:44 pm | Permalink |

              Im waving it proudly :)

              • Soth
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:00 pm | Permalink |

                I’m in the same boat, I would vote Liberal if they announced that they would follow through with FTTP.
                But yes the only poll that matters is the one on the day.

          • Hubert Cumberdale
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:50 pm | Permalink |

            “I dont care if Renai thinks it’s a workable plan, i and many many many others think it’s a piece of shit.”

            I agree 100% GENIII. There seems to be this silly argument that because the coalition clowns ‘plan’ is an improvement over what they served up last time and that it is ‘workable’ that somehow it is acceptable. I cannot endorse a plan that does not commit to a majority FttP rollout when a majority FttP networks is the end goal. It doesn’t even have to be a 93% footprint. I’ve said this before many times already. Anywhere between 51% and 100% will get my stamp of approval. Until then Turnball’s gimped version is not just a piece of shit as you say but a colossal waste of time & money.

            • Harimau
              Posted 16/07/2013 at 12:38 am | Permalink |

              The Coalition’s current policy compared to their original policy is as Starbucks compared to instant coffee. Still wouldn’t drink it.

          • djos
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink |

            I have to agree with GENIII, Renai does some great work but calling the LBN “sensible” is a stretch at best….

            • Fibroid
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:56 pm | Permalink |

              @djos

              Counting ‘premises passed’ to meet the June target as those that cannot connect yet under service class zero , where the definition of the service class zero timeline is the premise may not be ready to connect for UP TO 18 MONTHS, is a better real life example of ‘ a stretch at best….’.

              • Alex
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:24 pm | Permalink |

                What does any of that have to do with the Coalition’s plan being described as sensible or otherwise?

                • Fibroid
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:34 pm | Permalink |

                  Because I was providing an actual comparison of a example of a ‘stretch at best’ rather than conjecture of what is a ‘stretch at best’.

                  You would prefer I didn’t use that particular example, but that’s understandable.

                  • Alex
                    Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:02 pm | Permalink |

                    @ Fibroid.

                    I wholeheartedly/100% agree with Woolfe…

                    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/07/14/its-on-husic-takes-the-nbn-fight-to-turnbull/#comment-616871

                    You really aren’t here for meaningful and courteous two way discussion are you?

                    :(

                    • Fibroid
                      Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:29 pm | Permalink |

                      You mean as in, ‘suck it up Fibroid’ or ‘ smart arsed comment’, but then they are from pro NBN/anti-Coalition posters, and that’s ok.

                      • Observer
                        Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:44 pm | Permalink |

                        Again, you confuse attack with description.

                        You don’t want to see your behaviour described as such, then don’t do it. It is that simple.

                        Answer posts politely and honestly and I for one would not feel the need to comment on your style.

                        It is possible to have a vigorous debate without game playing or avoiding difficult points.

                        By the way, I am not anti anything. I do not have a great deal of time for politicians but I don’t like BS.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 15/07/2013 at 6:07 pm | Permalink |

                        Where did I mention these, let alone them being ok or otherwise Fibroid…?

                        Seriously… must you introduce us to the strawman at every comment?

                        IMO such comments as you allude to, are simply the frustrating end result of your less than courteous replies (as Woolfe most succinctly relayed)…

              • dJOS
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:39 pm | Permalink |

                @Fibroid, I don’t give a flying F what you think, go back to your bridge and stay there, the humans are having an adult conversation!

    8. Senectus
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 11:45 am | Permalink |

      Renai I don’t understand how you can say the LIB’s NBN is a “sensible” choice.
      It costs *almost* the same to implement, takes *almost* the same amount of time to implement, will cost more to maintain and run and will deliver less than a quarter the national bandwidth.
      THEN, it’ll need *more* than the ALP NBN to upgrade a to bring up to scratch within a very short amount of time.

      And this is all to deliver a service that is not much more (and in many cases not at all) anything faster than what we already have!

      • Fibroid
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:32 pm | Permalink |

        ‘It costs *almost* the same to implement,’

        No it doesn’t, it’s much cheaper.

        ‘takes *almost* the same amount of time to implement,’

        No it doesn’t, it’s much faster to rollout because the copper is already there.

        ‘ will cost more to maintain and run’

        It does, why?

        ‘ and will deliver less than a quarter the national bandwidth.’

        What’s the ‘national bandwidth’ mean?
        .
        ‘THEN, it’ll need *more* than the ALP NBN to upgrade a to bring up to scratch within a very short amount of time.’

        Really? what does it cost to bring it up to ‘scratch’ (whatever that means) and why is it more?

        ‘And this is all to deliver a service that is not much more (and in many cases not at all) anything faster than what we already have!’

        I don’t know about you but I cannot get a minimum of 25Mbps from ADSL2+, I’m not living next to my exchange with a copper link running direct to the building.

        • Bern
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:18 pm | Permalink |

          ‘No it doesn’t, it’s much cheaper.’

          No it’s not, the cost is ~70%+ of the full fibre solution ($29billion vs $41billion, just picking some numbers from my memory). That’s for a network that provides 25% of the bandwidth the NBN provides now, and 2.5% of what the NBN will deliver when they turn on the gigabit plans. And the $29billion FTTN price tag assumes that Telstra will give them the copper for free, and that the copper is in good serviceable condition for VDSL connections. That’s cheaper, but not *much* cheaper. It’s like saying a second-hand Excel for $12k (that hasn’t been to the mechanic for three years, and you can’t do a mechanical inspection of it before purchase) is “much cheaper” than a brand-new Commodore for $15k…

          ‘No it doesn’t, it’s much faster to rollout because the copper is already there.’

          Completion date of full FTTH network: 2020-2021
          Completion date of full FTTN network: 2019 (assuming that they don’t have to spend any time designing the network or running trial sites or running equipment tenders)

          That’s not ‘much faster’, it’s barely faster at all, and for many Australians it will end up being *much* slower, because they are currently slated to receive FTTH within 3 years.

          ‘It does, why?’

          Because FTTN nodes are active, powered devices, that use kilowatts of electricity and require regular maintenance, unlike passive optical splitters that are (almost) build & forget. This is also why upgrading from FTTN to FTTP is more expensive, because while you can swap out a VDSL card for a fibre one, you still have to pay to run the active switching in the node.

          ‘What’s the ‘national bandwidth’ mean?’

          In context, I’d say it’s the average minimum available bandwidth for any fixed-line subscriber. It’s not that hard to understand what it’s meant to be, try applying some thought to the topic.

          ‘Really? what does it cost to bring it up to ‘scratch’ (whatever that means) and why is it more?’

          I believe the cost of upgrading a national FTTN network to FTTH has already been estimated by reputable analysts at roughly $20 billion, which would put the full FTTN->FTTH price tag at a minimum of $49billion + extra FTTN running costs, compared to $41billion to go straight to FTTH. And that’s assuming, as noted above, that Telstra supply the copper for free, and that it’s all in good condition for VDSL (which we’re fairly sure it’s not)

          ‘I don’t know about you but I cannot get a minimum of 25Mbps from ADSL2+, I’m not living next to my exchange with a copper link running direct to the building.’

          That’s obviously a reference to the fact that we have existing technologies that can provide 25Mbps-class services (though, also obviously, in limited areas). In that regard, a 25Mbps national minimum *would* be a step up, and as Renai says, it’s definitely much better that the previous LNP policy of doing nothing. On the other hand, as many people here have argued, if you’re going to spend tens of $billions upgrading the national communications infrastructure, why not do it right the first time, instead of going to an interim solution that is only being rolled out by telcos who already own & want to maximise the useful life of their copper networks? And I understand even a lot of those telcos are now looking at bypassing FTTN for future upgrades, as FTTH is much, much cheaper to run & maintain.

          Anyone who knows more than I do on this topic (and there are dozens of you on this site alone!), feel free to point out my misconceptions on this topic. I’m a mechanical engineer, not a communications expert! :-)

          • Tinman_au
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:29 pm | Permalink |

            Anyone who knows more than I do on this topic (and there are dozens of you on this site alone!), feel free to point out my misconceptions on this topic. I’m a mechanical engineer, not a communications expert! :-)

            I think you did a nice round-up Bern, though I’m pretty certain Fiboid will have something to say about it ;o)

          • Senectus
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:52 pm | Permalink |

            THIS.
            This in spades.
            +1 in rolled gold plated beauty.
            Thank you Bern.

          • Alex
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:59 pm | Permalink |

            Indeed Bern, nice post…

            Let’s not forget too (or intentionally avoid as our friend always does) that…

            a) the actual governmental spends (which is what concerns the citizens) are almost identical for both plans.

            b) The Coalition plan on doing 22% (iirc) this ‘big bad unneeded’ FttP anyway.

            c) The other 71% (iirc) FttN is vastly “inferior” to FttP.

            d) Although both 93% coverage, the FttN footprint is ergo much smaller than the current FttP footprint.

            e) Refer again to a)… regardless the governmental costs are almost the same…

            FttN was a good idea 10 years ago, it is ridiculous now (even more so with FttP already underway and the public monies very similar) and the only people who refuse to accept it are those who’s immovable ideology won’t allow them to…IMO.

            • Hubert Cumberdale
              Posted 16/07/2013 at 12:43 am | Permalink |

              “d) Although both 93% coverage, the FttN footprint is ergo much smaller than the current FttP footprint.”

              I’m actually surprised their FttN footprint is as big as 71% Alex. Considering the fuss Turnbull makes about HFC and yet it seems they will be rolling out obsolete FttN in obsolete HFC areas eventually too. That is very curious…

              • Alex
                Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:59 am | Permalink |

                Indeed Hubert.

                With all their past hullabaloo about HFC being wasted by replacing it with up to date FttP, you think they’d put their money where their mouth is and say, no we will keep HFC, but hypocritically no and as you say they will replace one obsolete network with another (and they talk of waste) :/

                But then again they can’t really say too much about HFC as it belongs to private companies and “no political party” is silly enough to make absolute promises regarding their policies when they don’t own the assets they absolutely need to fulfil these promises… are they?

                ;)

          • Hubert Cumberdale
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:53 pm | Permalink |

            Awesome post bern. +1000mbps

            • Bern
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:40 pm | Permalink |

              ‘+1000mbps’

              Heh, I wish. I’m one of the lucky ones who can get Telstra’s “Cable Extreme”, and I get ~28Mbps with a following wind, early in the morning when all the teenagers are still in bed. (I nearly fell off my chair when I saw a download at 3.2MB/sec around 8am Saturday morning).

              What I really look forward to is the increased upload speed with NBN plans – even the lowest NBN tier offers 5 times faster uploads than I get on cable, and much faster again than my parents get on ADSL2, so my daughters can finally have high-def video calls with their grandparents, rather than a choppy 1990s-resolution slideshow.

          • Fibroid
            Posted 16/07/2013 at 11:00 am | Permalink |

            @Bern

            ‘No it’s not, the cost is ~70%+ of the full fibre solution ($29billion vs $41billion, just picking some numbers from my memory).’

            That’s pretty good memory, but it’s easy to get the real figures, it’s $44.1b not $41b and $29.5b is not cheaper than $41b?

            ‘That’s for a network that provides 25% of the bandwidth the NBN provides now,’

            Firstly the speed range for FTTN is 25Mbps-100Mbps for all by 2016, and 50Mbps -100Mbps for 90% of the fixed line footprint by 2019, it is certainly not a simplistic comparison of 25% of the bandwidth difference against 100Mbps FTTP for everyone, and secondly not everyone that takes a NBN Plan takes the 100Mbps plan do they?

            ‘ And the $29billion FTTN price tag assumes that Telstra will give them the copper for free’

            …and the $44.1b billion price tag for the Labor NBN doesn’t include the $11b payment in the Telstra/NBN Co agreement from October 2011 to shut down the copper, so if the Coalition can get the copper for no additional payment than the $11b the NBN Co is in contract to Telstra to shut the copper down anyway they are ahead are they not?

            ‘Completion date of full FTTH network: 2020-2021
            Completion date of full FTTN network: 2019 (assuming that they don’t have to spend any time designing the network or running trial sites or running equipment tenders)’

            Hang on the milestones in the Coalition policy are as I outlined above, a minimum of 25Mbps by 2016 for all and minimum of 50 Mbps for 90% of the fixed line footprint by 2019, you need 2016 as the baseline in any comparisons to the completion date of the Labor rollout.

            ‘That’s not ‘much faster’, it’s barely faster at all, and for many Australians it will end up being *much* slower, because they are currently slated to receive FTTH within 3 years.’

            So how many Australians will have Labor FTTH by 2015 vs how many Australians will have minimum of 25Mbps by 2016?

            ‘Because FTTN nodes are active, powered devices, that use kilowatts of electricity and require regular maintenance, unlike passive optical splitters that are (almost) build & forget.’

            Yes they do but they also service 300- 400 residences off each cabinet, but it’s not all passive in a FTTP link, how much electricity does a NBN Fibre Access Node (FAN) consume coupled with the NBN Co NTU running 24/7 required in EVERY residence?

            ‘This is also why upgrading from FTTN to FTTP is more expensive, because while you can swap out a VDSL card for a fibre one, you still have to pay to run the active switching in the node.’

            So why are BT doing it if it so expensive, are they in the Telco business to make a loss, even though they are making record profits and paying record high dividends in 2013?

            ‘In context, I’d say it’s the average minimum available bandwidth for any fixed-line subscriber. It’s not that hard to understand what it’s meant to be, try applying some thought to the topic.’

            Yes got that but what is that figure or National bandwidth measurement?

            ‘I believe the cost of upgrading a national FTTN network to FTTH has already been estimated by reputable analysts at roughly $20 billion, which would put the full FTTN->FTTH price tag at a minimum of $49billion + extra FTTN running costs, compared to $41billion to go straight to FTTH. And that’s assuming, as noted above, that Telstra supply the copper for free, and that it’s all in good condition for VDSL (which we’re fairly sure it’s not)’

            When do we need to upgrade FTTN as a blanket upgrade after the two Coalition speed milestones of 2016 and 2019, and are you aware of any plans overseas Telco’s have in place while they are rolling out FTTN in 2013 and beyond for this bulk upgrade to FTTP?

            ‘ why not do it right the first time, instead of going to an interim solution that is only being rolled out by telcos who already own & want to maximise the useful life of their copper networks? ‘

            Which doesn’t really explain why Telco’s are rolling out both FTTP AND FTTN, they would be rolling out all FTTN would they not?
            The Coalition plan maximises the useful life of the Telstra copper network by providing a cheaper and faster solution that gets more residences off ADSL sooner than the much delayed Labor NBN ever will.

            ‘And I understand even a lot of those telcos are now looking at bypassing FTTN for future upgrades, as FTTH is much, much cheaper to run & maintain.’

            I don’t think so , if you look at many large overseas Telcos’ plans for FTTN it takes them well beyond 2013, and they have a massive motivation to get it right as in profits to make and shareholders to keep happy, they obviously don’t agree with your it’s cheaper to go with FTTH assertion.

            • Tinman_au
              Posted 17/07/2013 at 3:21 am | Permalink |

              Thanks Fibroid, I love it when I’m right ;o)

        • Observer
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:09 pm | Permalink |

          “No it doesn’t, it’s much faster to rollout because the copper is already there.”

          It is indeed, in its decrepit, thereby pretty unsuitable, glory.

          This will, whether you like it or not, impact on the cost and duration of roll out.

          • Fibroid
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:48 pm | Permalink |

            It’s ‘decrepit’ eh? yet another ‘expert’ poster than has exclusive access to Telstra fault reports that not even Telstra has access to.

            BTW you left out and it’s rotting in the ground and you need $5000 to get off it if the Coalition win, ‘decrepit’ alone doesn’t have enough emotional anti Coalition BS clout.

            • Observer
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:20 pm | Permalink |

              ” yet another ‘expert’ poster than has exclusive access to Telstra fault reports that not even Telstra has access to”

              Yet Another smart arsed comment from someone who does not like personal attacks.

              The point about the Telstra fault reports being an unreliable measure of the network suitability for data has often been debated but, not being suitable to your ideologically position, you choose to ignore it. How unusual.

              The fact is there are multiple reports from technicians throughout Australia that the copper network is decrepit (look for the definition of the term. It fits perfectly).

              Let me put it back to you. What is the state of the copper network? How suitable is it going to be for VDSL?

              Still waiting for the answer to my previous question. Even though I appreciate that you were deeply distressed by my description of your behaviour, you should have had time to recover and answer.

              • Fibroid
                Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:59 pm | Permalink |

                @Observer, Alex & Soth

                “in a statement responding to the ABC’s article, a Telstra spokesperson pointed out that the company’s latest network reliability data showed that one 1.3 percent of its customers had experienced a fault during the most recent reporting period — October this year. In some areas, such as the Sydney central business district, that figure was even lower — as low as 0.58 percent. In addition, Telstra’s statistics also showed that services were available, on average, 99.92 percent of the time.”

                It’s not just Telstra, ACMA states:…..

                “The Australian Communications and Media Authority, which is responsible for monitoring the performance of telecommunications companies in Australia, praised Telstra’s reliability in its most recent telecommunications performance report for the 2010/11 year (PDF). The regulator wrote: “The monthly percentage of Telstra’s CSG-eligible services that did not experience a fault remains consistently high. In 2010–11, 98.49 per cent of services were fault free on average per month, marginally lower than the previous year.”

                “In 2010–11, at a national level, services were available on average for 99.90 per cent of the time each month. Most areas across Australia experienced a very high level of service availability on Telstra’s fixed-line network.”

                http://delimiter.com.au/2012/11/27/copper-network-not-rooted-says-telstra/

                Now what do your exclusive ‘decrepit copper’, Telstra fault reports show?

                • Soth
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:14 pm | Permalink |

                  Reliable – Capable of being relied on; dependable.
                  Decrepit – Weakened, worn out, impaired, or broken down by old age, illness, or hard use

                  Yes the Telstra network is reliable on getting internet and making phone calls to people in Australia, my internet rarely disconnects completely (unless their is a fault, fire, car taken out a pole, etc), but due to the age and condition of the copper in my street it will drop in speed and add a lot of noise on the line every time it rains. Each day is like the lotto, some days I get good speed, others I get terrible.

                • Alex
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:16 pm | Permalink |

                  So which is the Telstra lie then…?

                  Your above one where they are trying to sell their copper to a political party who must have it to fulfil their promise… or this one when there wasn’t such inducement for Telstra..

                  http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674351979.html

                • Observer
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:16 pm | Permalink |

                  Selective Fibroid

                  A measure of a network suitability is not only the number of reported faults. One can have no fault and a miserably slow connection.
                  Also, there have also been many people reporting that they have given up reporting fault caused by rain because it has improved by the time a technician turns up.

                  But more to the point how about your answer on the state of the copper and its suitability for VDSL?

                  Common don’t be shy. You seem to have (almost) an answer for everything.

                  • Fibroid
                    Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:22 pm | Permalink |

                    I’m still waiting on your exclusive red stamped ‘to be read by Observer only’ fault reports that dispute both Telstra and the ACMA findings.

                    • Observer
                      Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:33 pm | Permalink |

                      Another smart arsed comment disguising as reply to my post.

                      You remember my description of your behaviour as “childlike”, which offended you so much. Well, this is another example of it. The old ” I won’t show mine until you show me yours”.

                      Your main problem is that you argue like a politician, always right, never conceding any points, challenging other people’s statements but never replying to their challenges.

                      One day, you might discover that to persuade others (which you doubtlessly try to do ad nauseam) a two sided argument works much better than a one sided argument. This is even more so when the latter is often selective or disingenuous.

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 15/07/2013 at 5:48 pm | Permalink |

                        So that’s a no you don’t have anything factual to dispute the Telstra or ACMA reports, so we have to rely on pro Labor NBN/anti-Coalition conjecture to carry us through to the election and maybe beyond that the Telstra copper is ‘decrepit’ and certainly not up to handling a FTTN rollout.

                      • Observer
                        Posted 15/07/2013 at 6:07 pm | Permalink |

                        Same tactics

                        The photos ,shown before and re-posted for you convenience, are evidence of condition, not report of faults. Why is it so hard for you to understand?

                        Meanwhile, answer the question on the state and suitability of the copper. Common, give it a shot. Let’s see what you can come up with.

                        To make it simpler for you. State mean condition like pristine, reasonable, poor….

                        As for you new “pro Labor NBN/anti-Coalition, I understand that you can only think of issues through the reverse prism (Anti Labor NBN/pro-Coalition) but others, like me, can think independently.

                        Maybe, you should try it sometimes.

                    • Tinman_au
                      Posted 17/07/2013 at 3:36 am | Permalink |

                      Here you go Fibroid, go crazy mate :o)

                      http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib550049/comms_report_2011-12.pdf

                      According to that, Telstra had 1m faults (with 7m odd customers).

                      1 in 7..

                      they did repair them within the CSG Standard time frame, 91.4% of the time though…

                • TrevorX
                  Posted 15/07/2013 at 6:56 pm | Permalink |

                  Fibroid, there are whole threads on Whirlpool and OCAU that I have personally seen containing hundreds of testimonies of people who have had their lines repaired by Telstra techs (or contractors) who wrote ‘no fault found’ on the job card after repairing the fault. Given the only metric upon which the ACMA can base their audits is Telstra’s internal fault records, as it is the only source of official data upon which the overall quality of the network can be estimated for the purposes of FTTN projections, that suggests that none of the statistics published by Telstra, noneiof the service reliability performance data referred to by the ACMA, none of the hyperbole pushed by the LNP purporting to demonstrate the CANs fitness for purpose can be relied upon as accurate. The only thing we can rely upon, that we know for certain, is that a tremendous amount of work will need to be done before we have any way of actually evaluating the extent of the problem or the percentage of the network that is actually suitable to meet the minimum 25mbps over FTTN planned by the LNP. The very fact that the LNP have planned and wish to begin deploying the network without actually doing these investigations is telling – the only possible outcome is their hope that things will be too far along by the time that the extent of the problems with the CAN are recognised as widespread and endemic of the whole network.

                  • Fibroid
                    Posted 15/07/2013 at 8:02 pm | Permalink |

                    ‘there are whole threads on Whirlpool and OCAU that I have personally seen containing hundreds of testimonies of people who have had their lines repaired by Telstra techs (or contractors) who wrote ‘no fault found’ on the job card after repairing the fault. ‘

                    That anecdotal type of stuff needs to be converted into meaningful statistics that have a meaningful impact on the Telstra and ACMA provided statistics and drag it down from the high 90’s type of percentages, but you and I can only reference the sort of fault report evidence that is in public domain, that’s all that is available.

                    ‘The only thing we can rely upon, that we know for certain, is that a tremendous amount of work will need to be done ‘

                    We cannot know that for certain, what have you seen that leads you to come to that conclusion, you may be right that a lot of work needs to be done to provide everyone with a minimum of 25Mbps by 2016 , but that certainly cannot be quantified in work load or dollars this far out from the rollout.

                    ‘The very fact that the LNP have planned and wish to begin deploying the network without actually doing these investigations is telling’

                    I don’t where you get that from, the Coalition policy states that quite a few investigations will take place before they start their rollout.

                    The biggest ‘investigation’ is will Telstra and the ACCC play nice with FTTN infrastructure and ownership, if it doesn’t pass those major hurdles it doesn’t matter if the copper is capable of FTTN or not.

                    • Observer
                      Posted 15/07/2013 at 9:28 pm | Permalink |

                      “That anecdotal type of stuff needs to be converted into meaningful statistics that have a meaningful impact on the Telstra and ACMA provided statistics and drag it down from the high 90′s type of percentages, but you and I can only reference the sort of fault report evidence that is in public domain, that’s all that is available.”

                      What an absolute lot of rubbish. This is like saying that the evidence from witnesses to a crime is worthless until you can convert it into meaningful statistics. Do you also suggest that Telstra’s statement in 2003 that the network would need to be replaced also needs to be converted into meaningful statistics. You obviously have very little understanding of where and when statistics are useful but also of their limitations.
                      I am amazed by the extent to which you are prepared to go, just to win an argument. Pure schoolboy debating technique. Does not matter what the truth is. Find someway to counteract the point even to the point of being ridiculous.

                      The point, your obsession with always being right, makes you miss is that there is sufficient evidence that some of the network will be problematic for the purpose intended by the Coalition. The only doubt that remains is the extent of the problem.

                      • Observer
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:14 pm | Permalink |

                        Given your interest in the scientific method, I feel I must comment on reply to Alex.

                        Thodey is one source of information and one of the tenet of science is that no source of information is an authority on the truth. This is what differentiate the scientific method from religion.

                        Furthermore, research in persuasive theory has shown that if the source of an information has a vested interest, such a source is seldom deemed to be trustworthy by those it is trying to convince. Unless, I should add, the recipient of the information has a bias that coincides with the information provided.

                        Finally, I am sure copper could last another 100years. The question remains how useful it would be as part of a communication network.

                        By the way, still waiting for your clarification on “no doubt” versus “may well be”.

                    • Observer
                      Posted 15/07/2013 at 9:39 pm | Permalink |

                      By the way, still not answering the questions about the suitability and state of copper.

                      You know, your views without hiding behind some irrelevant statistics. Is it in pristine condition? Is the copper the right gauge? Is it good enough for VDSL? Is it good enough for the speed that the coalition will direct NBNCo to achieve?

                      Instead of critique others’ views, how about yours with Coalition’s propaganda?

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 8:41 am | Permalink |

                        I don’t have to prove what the state of the copper is, or if it is capable of VDSL, or how much of it needs remediation to support a minimum of 25 Mbps, I’m not in a position of ‘being above’ Telstra, it’s CEO and ACMA.

                        I have only access to Telstra fault report summaries, and also ACMA backing those up (highlighted in a Delimiter report above) and what the Telstra CEO states about the condition of the copper they own, that’s the only facts available.

                        You and others including Labor state the copper is decrepit which in no doubt in some parts it may well be, but the proof is using the evidence available to draw the conclusion that the percentage is so high relative to the percentage that is ok it is a total deal stopper for a FTTN infrastructure rollout.

                        No statistical evidence so far I have seen leads to that conclusion in any way.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 8:43 am | Permalink |

                        http://delimiter.com.au/2013/07/14/its-on-husic-takes-the-nbn-fight-to-turnbull/#comment-616877

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 9:55 am | Permalink |

                        Yes we have been through this before many times, the media link you provided says this.

                        “Telstra will replace its century-old copper wire phone network with new technology within the next 15 years, saying the ageing lines are now at “five minutes to midnight”.

                        The new technology as it was proposed in 2008 and what Labor took to the 2007 election as you know was FTTN, your point is what?

                      • Observer
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 10:02 am | Permalink |

                        ‘I don’t have to prove what the state of the copper is, or if it is capable of VDSL, or how much of it needs remediation to support a minimum of 25 Mbps”

                        No one is asking to prove anything (again trying to twist things to avoid the question). What you are asked for is your opinion, something you are never short of when it comes to others.

                        “I have only access to Telstra fault report summaries, and also ACMA backing those up (highlighted in a Delimiter report above) and what the Telstra CEO states about the condition of the copper they own, that’s the only facts available.”

                        You do have access to much more information but you choose to ignore it, because it does not fit your argument. Incidentally, Telstra CEO has a vested interest. The 2003 senate statement by Telstra reveals a different position 10 years earlier. We, now, have a new discovery: copper is like wine it gets better with age.

                        “You and others including Labor state the copper is decrepit which in no doubt in some parts it may well be”,

                        Let me see if I have this right. Some part of the copper (network, I assume) is, in no doubt, may well be decrepit. That’s odd. I thought “may” indicates a possibility but ‘no doubt’ indicates certainty. So, please help me. Is it certain that some part are decrepit or is it just possible, because it can’t be both?

                        “but the proof is using the evidence available to draw the conclusion that the percentage is so high relative to the percentage that is ok it is a total deal stopper for a FTTN infrastructure rollout.”

                        “the percentage is so high relative to the percentage that is OK” (???). I hope, you meant to say the bad percentage is so high. See what happens when you start to give your opinion without talking points from the Coalition, you get all muddled up.

                        Furthermore, I, for one, has never said that it would be a deal stopper. All I ,and others, have said is that it raises questions about cost and suitability. You would also think that MT (who has told us repeatedly that he is technologically agnostic and a man praised by Renai for the depth of his research) would have investigated the extent of the problem before committing himself to the purchase of the network.

                        The selective evidence, you claim is available, doesn’t prove or disprove the state of the network. The performance of the network is no evidence of its state, especially when the introduction of a new technology will increase the need for it to be in near perfect condition. Your point is like suggesting that because a man, with health problems ,can manage to walk up a hill, he is well enough to climb a mountain.

                        “No statistical evidence so far I have seen leads to that conclusion in any way.”

                        Here we go again about statistical evidence. Let me use another analogy. You are saying that unless there is statistical evidence about the state of the network, the network is fine and it is OK for MT to buy it. So, if you were to buy a car and the car had a lot of decrepit bits, you would still buy it unless there was statistical evidence that would lead you to the conclusion that it is a bomb.

                        Perhaps, I am wrong and you are a genius. If this is so, I think you should write and publish a book and call it “buying goods using statistical evidence’. I am sure it would become an instant bestseller.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 1:36 pm | Permalink |

                        @Fibroid…

                        Let’s examine that small part of my link you honed in on.

                        You agree… that in 2003 Telstra admitted their copper would need to be totally replaced “within 15 years.”

                        Within meaning no more than/up to, so anytime from 2003 to 2018, TELSTRA ADMIT THE COPPER NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.

                        We agree… hallelujah.

                        So… when have the Coalition estimated they will complete their copper based FttN network?

                        Why “by the end of 2019″ or up to 16 years behind the first within range (2003) and one year past the latest year of replacement 2018.

                        FIBROID… Thank you for admitting FttN will be obsolete before it’s completed. I will gladly remind you of this admission, in the future ;)

                      • Observer
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink |

                        ” you and others love all of that let’s divert from the subject matter under discussion and let’s make it personal when you run out of evidence based responses which is usually early into a discussion.”

                        What is it, the kettle calling the cat black?

                        Anyway, what about an answer to this. Surely, that would not involve repetition, just clarification:

                        “Some part of the copper (network, I assume) is, in no doubt, may well be decrepit. That’s odd. I thought “may” indicates a possibility but ‘no doubt’ indicates certainty. So, please help me. Is it certain that some part are decrepit or is it just possible, because it can’t be both?”

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 5:43 pm | Permalink |

                        @Alex

                        ‘Let’s examine that small part of my link you honed in on.’

                        You really need to move on, that subject has been flogged to death ,around the block twice and back again last month.

                        “Copper good for 100 years, says Thodey”

                        http://delimiter.com.au/2013/06/21/copper-good-for-100-years-says-thodey/

                        … particularly in detail from here.

                        http://delimiter.com.au/2013/06/21/copper-good-for-100-years-says-thodey/#comment-613786

                        “Copper good for 100 years, says Thodey” just on its own makes your comment null and void.

                      • Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink |

                        Yes Fibroid, I see a flogging, of your asserted points.

                        If you’re going to try and say something has been “flogged to death”, ensure that the points you are making are well supported by said “flogging”.

                        Otherwise you’re effectively saying “We argued about this before! Therefore I can say whatever I want about this area of the debate! So shut your dirty mouth!”

                      • Alex
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:09 pm | Permalink |

                        @ Fibroid…

                        Congratulations your quickest contradiction yet…

                        @ 9:55 this morning you agreed and mentioned that (from 2003) –

                        “Telstra will replace its century-old copper wire phone network with new technology within the next 15 years, saying the ageing lines are now at “five minutes to midnight”.

                        Which means it’s only good at best to 2018 at best… didn’t you? Which means you agreed the Coalitions FttN plan will be obsolete before it’s finished in 2019, didn’t you?

                        Now you tap dance, squirm and want to deny what you agreed to just 8 hours ago…

                        Begone child…

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:16 pm | Permalink |

                        @NightKhaos

                        It’s not MY POINT it’s the Telstra CEO’s, argue with him.

                      • Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:20 pm | Permalink |

                        *facepalm*

                        Me thinks you didn’t even read the thread you just linked after that point Fibroid.

                        How about you go do that, and I’ll go play some Civilization 5? Sounds good? Awesome.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:23 pm | Permalink |

                        @ Fibroid, perhaps David (Malcolm needs my copper at all costs…LOL) Thodey, should argue with these guys?

                        http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2013/6/21/technology/squeezing-life-out-telstras-copper

                        http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/04/11/copper-wire-technology-whose-time-has-passed/

                      • Observer
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 6:33 pm | Permalink |

                        “It’s not MY POINT it’s the Telstra CEO’s, argue with him.”

                        You are using it as the final say on the matter. Get challenged and say go and argue with him. Are you real.

                        I am sure your friends and your family think you are smart, witty and a fantastic debater. So spend more time with them, it will healthier for your ego and get head office to send a replacement.

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 7:00 pm | Permalink |

                        Yes got all of that off topic musing about personalities, the ‘Copper is good for 100 years’ is still not my point.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 17/07/2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink |

                        Yes got all that Fibroid…

                        You say Telstra’s copper will will last for 100 years even though it needs replacing by 2018.

                        Lol…Keep up the great work *rolls eyes*

                    • TrevorX
                      Posted 16/07/2013 at 11:49 am | Permalink |

                      @Fibroid
                      You’re being deliberately obtuse. Yes, that evidence is anecdotal. No its not an ‘official’ statistic (as it hasn’t been collated it isn’t even a statistic). What it demonstrates is:
                      A) there are numerous reports of this behaviour
                      B) these reports are coming from members of technical communities, who make up a tiny proportion of the population.
                      C) it is safe to extrapolate from the above that, assuming only a small proportion of the population are members of technical Internet forums, technically knowledgeable enough to recognise ‘no fault found’ when work has actually been performed to repair a fault and then interested enough to post their testimony in the relevant thread on the relevant forum, the liklihood of this issue being far more widespread and affecting a significantly large number of cable faults is high.
                      D) before you dismiss (c) as conjecture, I will point out that this type of inference is precisely the mechanism used in all surveys and polling – you sample a small (but hopefully sufficiently indicative) number of people and extrapolate the results to represent the population generally. Random polling in this case would be useless as we necessarily need respondents who have experienced a fault and have the technical understanding to recognise the cited cause of the fault on the job card.
                      E) this information is not a statistical representation of an alternative set of data with which the ‘official’ data from Telstra can be compared. It is information that raises concerns with the quality of the data collected and presented by Telstra. What do statisticians do when they find corrupt data? They throw it out because it is unreliable. Right now a fairly important part of this debate relies heavily on data whose accuracy is extremely questionable.
                      F) citing ACMA findings does nothing to strengthen the Telstra data because it is based upon the same data with zero additional investigation into the efficacy of that data or the accuracy of its collection. The same goes for continuing to cite ‘official statistics’. What I am talking about is the quality of that data. There are no follow up checks performed by an external organisation to ensure the accuracy of completed job card data. This is the only quality control measure that could ensure the quality of the data being presented by Telstra.

                      To answer your other point, the LNP have planned their FTTN network including budgeting figures which they are presenting as reliably accurate costings. My point is they can’t have anything like an accurate plan or reliable costings when statistics underlying their fundamental assumptions are unreliable.

                      Finally, I was initially frustrated by your response because it appears you are being deliberately obtuse, ignoring the points actually being made by people and focusing on minutiae. Then I realised what you’re doing – when you see a response or argument you try to fund fault with the statements themselves. You’re so fixated on that you really can’t see the intention of the argument. That’s probably not your fault – that may just be a limitation of the way your brain works. I think you’re probably simple. I guess that’s the up and downside of the Internet – there’s no way to filter respondents out of comments on a site by age or mental capacity, so you could potentially pollute any topic of conversation. The only recourse we have is either ignoring troll posts or moderating (removing) them when it becomes clear they are not responding in good faith to the discussion.

                      Unless you start actually responding to the gist of the discussion instead of attempting to find semantic fault with individual statements, I think it’s time people start treating you with the silence you deserve.

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 12:31 pm | Permalink |

                        Yes got all of that amateurs guide to the Psychology of Posting Strategies, you and others love all of that let’s divert from the subject matter under discussion and let’s make it personal when you run out of evidence based responses which is usually early into a discussion.

                        I find it all boring and pointless and adds absolutely zero to the discussion in hand.
                        If you cannot refute the Fault reports stats as published in the public domain with anything concrete just say so.

                      • Observer
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 1:47 pm | Permalink |

                        “Yes got all of that amateurs guide to the Psychology of Posting Strategies, you and others love all of that”

                        I don’t know about the amateur guide to psychology. I have taught psychology for many years. What’s your background champ? I mean besides devoting your time to defending the Coalition. I have to ask you this. Is it voluntary work or are you getting paid?

                        “If you cannot refute the Fault reports stats as published in the public domain with anything concrete just say so.”

                        It has been refuted many times but you are either too blind, too disingenuous, or maybe it is beyond you to comprehend. Just because you try to re-write the rules as to what constitutes evidence, does not make it so. In case, you think this is part of an amateur’s guide to research, I have also taught research and research methodology. What are your credentials? So far, the comments you have made with regards to scientific evidence only serve to highlight the limitations of your understanding. So, quit, while you are already behind.

                      • Fibroid
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink |

                        We are in a loop, I have nothing more to add that avoids repetition.

                        http://delimiter.com.au/2013/07/14/its-on-husic-takes-the-nbn-fight-to-turnbull/#comment-616938

                      • Alex
                        Posted 16/07/2013 at 3:42 pm | Permalink |

                        @ Observer +1

                        Fibroid ““Yes got all of that amateurs guide to the Psychology of Posting Strategies, you and others love all of that”

                        Observer: “I don’t know about the amateur guide to psychology. I have taught psychology for many years.”

                        Fibroid (unwritten): “D’oh…

                        Gold :)

            • Alex
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:22 pm | Permalink |

              Yet you in no way countered his description with any facts to prove him incorrect?

              So “you” tell us Fibroid…

              What condition is the copper in?

              How much will FoD cost if not $5K (remembering that you already agreed with Paul previously that the Coalition “do not even have a formal FoD policy – remember)”?

              Finally… does beating the political drum furiously 24/7, tire one’s arms?

              • Tinman_au
                Posted 17/07/2013 at 3:52 am | Permalink |

                You can work it out your self pretty easily really:

                http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib550049/comms_report_2011-12.pdf
                (It’s a really interesting document, chock full of facts).

                check the number of phone line service ( 7.12 million, page 16), then check the table that lists the number of faults repaired within the CSG time frame (Table 3.9, page 79)

                The number of faults (on voice lines) is roughly 1 in 7. I’d expect data to be higher, as voice is pretty forgiving about line noise etc.

            • Soth
              Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:25 pm | Permalink |

              http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/01/worst-of-the-worst-photos-of-australias-copper-network/

      • Tinman_au
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:06 pm | Permalink |

        Renai I don’t understand how you can say the LIB’s NBN is a “sensible” choice.

        Renai’s position has always been that the LBN is a reasonable alternative, but he still prefers the NBN.

        • Bern
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:20 pm | Permalink |

          I think it’s more that it’s a sensible choice, if you are ideologically opposed to rolling out FTTH, because the ‘other side’ proposed it and you can’t be seen to approve of anything they do. :-)

          It’s certainly much better than “we’ll leave it to the market to sort it out”, which used to be their policy, and which has failed so dismally for the last 15 or so years, both here and overseas.

        • Senectus
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 1:59 pm | Permalink |

          its sensible if you take the False dichotomy of “the Grass is always greener” view, and only if you selectively forget that the NBN is already rolling out.

          The fact that there are a few issues with the roll-out does not suddenly mean that the LIB is a sensible one.

          Especially as you cant honestly say that the LIB’s are going to ave any better luck. The LIB solution just introduces new issues that that ALP solution doesn’t have.

          The LIB solution is a sensible one if they put it in place when Howard was around. Today its rubbish.
          Worse than that, its a criminal waste of money, time and opportunity.

          • Observer
            Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:11 pm | Permalink |

            True. It may be better than nothing but the alternative is not nothing, it is FTTP.

    9. socrates
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:33 pm | Permalink |

      ‘charismatic Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull’?

      Think you may have meant egotistic and/or narcissistic, Renai.

      Turnbull could talk the hind leg off the proverbial, but that doesn’t mean he’s charismatic.

      Or correct…

      • Woolfe
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 12:41 pm | Permalink |

        Someone can be charismatic, egotistic and narcissistic all at once. :-)

        • Observer
          Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:14 pm | Permalink |

          His charisma, however, only shines when unchallenged. Challenge him and out comes big bad, talking over the top, bully Malcolm.

          Malcolm is a fairweather charmer.

    10. Posted 15/07/2013 at 2:54 pm | Permalink |

      For those who wish to debate my comment that the Coalition NBN policy is sensible, you can find my thoughts in depth here:

      http://delimiter.com.au/2013/04/16/the-coalitions-policy-is-a-sensible-nbn-alternative/

      I’m not going to respond to individual posts on this specific topic — I’ve already done so in extreme depth. That article had 393 comments :) You all know my thoughts on this topic by now.

      • Woolfe
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:05 pm | Permalink |

        Apologies for posting this here Renai, but is there a “complaints” email address for this site? I have had a look a few times now, and I can’t find one. It is possible I am just blind tho. I also have not joined the forum, so I may be missing it there.

        • Posted 15/07/2013 at 3:12 pm | Permalink |

          “is there a “complaints” email address for this site”

          No, but you can post a comment.

          • Posted 15/07/2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink |

            Ahh! Is that what Delimiter 2.0 is? A complaints form?

      • Goresh
        Posted 15/07/2013 at 7:12 pm | Permalink |

        I just find it difficult to marry this comment “Labor’s NBN policy has always been the better option on paper, it has suffered recently in the public perception due to project delays and an inability for its political masters to communicate its aims to the public” with “The Coalition’s policy is a sensible NBN alternative”

        That it makes sense politically does not mean that the policy itself is in any way sensible.

        • Zok
          Posted 16/07/2013 at 12:03 am | Permalink |

          Indeed — It’s like saying that “The Liberal’s Direct Action policy on climate change is sensible” while also claiming that “ALP’s emission trading scheme is better.” Having two bob each way, or hedging your bets. And is also good for controversy and attracting people with both views.

          It’s just plain sensible good business, and a typical demonstration of what is so wrong with modern media in general.

          • Posted 16/07/2013 at 9:45 am | Permalink |

            No matter if it’s the truth?

            • Lionel
              Posted 16/07/2013 at 11:15 am | Permalink |

              I guess we don’t know why you think it’s sensible.
              If it is because it is a solution that gives faster than current broadband. Yes, fine, it does.
              Do you think however it will be cheaper in the long term? That’s why I don’t find it sensible. It seems a waste to pay all that money for a short term solution. I know there are claims that is upgradable. It is for small numbers of FoD. What I find hard to believe is that 50% of the FTTN investment is reusable for a full FTTH upgrade. Really, other than the fibre running to the node, I don’t see anything else you’d want to keep.

        • Observer
          Posted 16/07/2013 at 10:14 am | Permalink |

          While you may not agree that the Coalition policy is sensible, this does not contradict the fact that the current policy is better.

          Policies, all have their strengths and weaknesses and therefore it would quite easy to argue the merits of both, depending on which criteria you use. For instance, if your preoccupation is purely financial, it can be argued that the Coalition model is more prudent in the short term but not necessarily in the long term.
          Likewise, if you look at the current model purely in terms of technology, it is easy to argue it is the best answer in the short and long term.

          So, yes the Coalition policy is sensible, in so far that is economically reasonable, in the short term and it attempts to address network problems by giving priority to areas when the network is poor. However, when the two policies are compared in their totality, the current one is superior.

    11. John Watson
      Posted 15/07/2013 at 7:54 pm | Permalink |

      I have a background in telecommunications and after watching the Malcom Turnbull debate the NBN with Labor’s Ed Husic, I now can never trust
      the majority of Malcom Turnbull’s statments on any subject.
      He is simply a great debater and debates can be won on mis-leading statements, the ignorance of the listeners, and incomplete truths.

      • Fibroid
        Posted 16/07/2013 at 9:50 am | Permalink |

        …, and what take do you have on where Husic said regional users will pay more under the Coalition policy and was corrected by Turnbull that the policy says they won’t?

        • AJ
          Posted 16/07/2013 at 1:27 pm | Permalink |

          Corrected how Malcolm Said that is untrue then spent the next 5 minutes saying the opposite.

          Malcolm Said people in the bush will pay up to a cap and people in areas with competition City could get a cheaper price.

          Husic said people in the bush will pay more
          Malcom said people in the City pay less

          • Fibroid
            Posted 16/07/2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink |

            I don’t know how you glean that regional areas will pay more from that discussion, current Labor NBN Co wholesale pricing is controlled by the ACCC anyway and it is uniform across regions, why would the ACCC suddenly change its mind on uniform NBN wholesale pricing just because the LNP is in power?

        • Alex
          Posted 16/07/2013 at 1:40 pm | Permalink |

          Is that the very same cross-subsidisation all you NBN naysayers used to bag NBNCo about (because it would make us in the city pay more), but now you welcome with opens arms in relation to MT’s plan…?

          Yes that would be the same cross-subsidisation, wouldn’t it?

          *shakes head in absolute disbelief*

    12. grump3
      Posted 16/07/2013 at 1:28 am | Permalink |

      Considering the coalition’s history of core & non- core policies as well as Abbott’s record of backing out even when he puts it in writing where does that leave us?
      A/. Labor = NBN roll-out in progress.
      B/. Coalition = Lots of pre-election promises but first a CBA, after which?…trust US???

      • TrevorX
        Posted 16/07/2013 at 12:18 pm | Permalink |

        He hedges on the CBA when it suits him, too, then trots it out when politically convenient.

    13. Invid
      Posted 17/07/2013 at 9:19 am | Permalink |

      Okay,
      I understand that faster is better, and every-one likes the idea of faster internet.
      But when I read (from some-one claiming to know the industry) saying “how can a person of your intellect and apparent intimate knowledge of the industry ever consider that a largely 25mps be enough ‘for most people’?” I can’t help but to think that people are basically stupid.
      I currently have a connection of <1mbps, and I can stream tv (albeit only one show at a time), I can download an ubuntu build in <30minutes . Sure faster would be better, but my current connection is useable. 25mbps (or even something near it) would be awesome, and I'm a fairly heavy internet user, given the choice of 25 or 100 mbps of course I'd choose 100 (unless the price difference was unjustified), but I'm not 'most people'. Currently 'most people' use the net for little more than youtube, facebook, and email. 25mbps is more than enough for that , I can do that on <1mbps. (It's probably wise to point out that I have ADSL, but a growing number of people use 3g or 4g mobile as their primary connection)
      So the clain that 25mbps is not enough strikes me as more than a little at odds with reality. I can't help but wonder what those who make such claims actually want, why is 25mbps not enough? Do you need the latest episode of Game of Thrones in <30 seconds?

      I have noticed aguments above about speeds in other parts of the world, Europe, the USA, even Asia, and even then I notice the figures being twisted to support a theory of "25mbps is not enough" by presenting some regional averages as the average of the whole, adjusting your sample set to back up your hypophisis is not science, it is missleading. Some parts of Japan have 2gbps, but that is not the whole of Japan (currently about 10mbps).

      An average connection speed of around 15mbps whould put Australia in a pretty good state broadband wise. So whether FTTN or FTTH is preferred all depends on time and cost. If the FTTN is significantly cheaper (less of our taxes spent on it) and will roll out faster than FTTH, I'll go FTTN, especially since you can pay (from your own pocket) to upgrade to FTTH. Not that any of this will drastically improve connection to foreign severs, as this would require costly upgrades to the transpacific cables (the Pipe Pacific Cable is the newest and supports about 3tbps….)

      • Posted 17/07/2013 at 11:32 am | Permalink |

        But when I read (from some-one claiming to know the industry) saying “how can a person of your intellect and apparent intimate knowledge of the industry ever consider that a largely 25mps be enough ‘for most people’?” I can’t help but to think that people are basically stupid.

        Insulting the bulk of the people you are talking to, be it indirectly, it is not a wise start. However I understand your knee jerk reaction, it is the same reason I have when someone, such as your self, uses ancedotal evidence, to try and make sweeping assumptions about the current and future needs of around 20 million people.

        So the clain that 25mbps is not enough strikes me as more than a little at odds with reality. I can't help but wonder what those who make such claims actually want, why is 25mbps not enough? Do you need the latest episode of Game of Thrones in <30 seconds?

        Most people, and I say most because I cannot conviencing account for everyone, regonise this fact, but their arguement is not based upon current needs as yours is, currently 25Mbps is more than sufficent for most of the population, as 56k dailup was enough for most people 15 years ago.

        The internet, and what we do with it, has changed in the last 15 years, and will likely continue to change for the next 15 years.

        When you consider that, optimisitically, phase 1 (25Mbs) will be complete in 2016, but in reality the proposed Coalition upgrades won’t be complete until 2019, which is 7 years from now, do you really think that your current needs, considering how much what you have done and can do on the Internet has changed in the past 20 odd years?

        Compare that to the NBN which will complete their network (again, optimistically) for similar government contribution (around $30b) despite the more ($11b) CAPEX overall only 2 years later, in 2021. If you really think we have reached some kind of “technological plateau” then the Coalition is a reasonable choice, but, if you believe, as I do, that the plateau you refer to isn’t here yet, then the NBN solution is the more reasonable of the two.

        Also, I might point out while we upgrade our network, Japan and the rest of the world will continue to upgrade theirs, so comparing our future speeds with their current is misleading. You need to consider what programs they have in place to ugprade their networks as well over the next decade or so.

        • Alex
          Posted 17/07/2013 at 12:02 pm | Permalink |

          + 1

          Excellent post NK

        • Woolfe
          Posted 17/07/2013 at 12:27 pm | Permalink |

          NightKhaos has the right of this.

          Right now 25Mbps is enough for the majority of us. But the future is another story.

          If the technology that was providing the 25mbps was robust enough that it could upgrade relatively easily, then there would be much less of an issue. The problem is that despite protestations to the contrary the copper option is no longer the leading option. Is it possible there will be improvements sure. Will those improvements be as great as other technologies. Unlikely.

          For me it is a bang for buck issue. For a “relatively” similar price we have two options that will take a “relatively” similar amount of time.

          That leaves the Technology, and in the technology stakes, do you pick the tried and true copper, with known limitations, and limited upgrade scope as more and more the technology firms move away from it. Or the tried and true Fibre which is growing and improving with actual real scope for improvement already earmarked.

          Add into that the question of the copper being an old infrastructure that has the issues that age brings vs brand new fibre.

          If the cost of the copper solution was substantially less than the fibre, then it would be a greater consideration. But the difference is not significant enough to justify the much reduced future potential.

          I would rather a solution that has room to grow with the needs of a world that is becoming more and more reliant on the data layer.

        • Senectus
          Posted 17/07/2013 at 12:30 pm | Permalink |

          So the claim that 25mbps is not enough strikes me as more than a little at odds with reality.

          One long standing and consistently accurate truism of the IT industry is :
          Utilisation will always grow to fill capacity.

          ie, 25mbps is enough right now because we self limit our activities to deal with the constraints and limitations that 25mbps give us.
          If we built 100mbs we would do the same again. But if we built 1000mbps we would quickly change our on-line habits to utilize the new capacity again, and on it goes.

          This is about building for the future, expanding our capabilities. If we build tomorrow what we have today we will not increase the functionality or utilization of the digital economy much OR enough to pay for it AND profit from it.

        • Invid
          Posted 17/07/2013 at 3:27 pm | Permalink |

          “Insulting the bulk of the people you are talking to, be it indirectly, it is not a wise start”

          True enough, and not entirely intentional, I tend to take the line that people are basicaly stupid, that includes myself. but my issue was actually with folks such as Markie (way above) throwing out bogus stats like “In most of Europe and the USA 125mps is the NORM”.

          “it is the same reason I have when someone, such as your self, uses ancedotal evidence”

          Yes I used ancedotal evidence, I never claimed my download times were the norm, but it does serve to illustrate the point that currently 1mbps does what “I” need, though faster is always better (if cost justified), and I’m a heavier user than most. Though you are right I should have calculated the exact time to download (assuming no errors) a 700mb file at 1mbps.

          “to try and make sweeping assumptions about the current and future needs”
          I never made any assumptions about our future needs.

          “currently 25Mbps is more than sufficent for most of the population”
          That’s my point.

          “If you really think we have reached some kind of “technological plateau” then the Coalition is a reasonable choice”
          Actually for me it comes down to cost, If FTTN is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper then it is my preferred option, as it provides an easy upgrade path (FTTH) and would more than meet existing need. If the costs are not significantly different then obviously FTTH is the better plan.

          My issue with is that people want to claim that 25mbps is not enough, which is not the case at present. Future needs are an unknown quantity, as Senectus says below “Utilisation will always grow to fill capacity”, so we could use this idea to say we should be deploying a 1gbps connection to the home because who knows what we’ll need in twenty years.

          I am personally not particularly moved by either party, and for the NBN it really is a matter of delivery date and cost vs connection speed and quallity (with a small allowance as people can pay a surcharge to go from FTTN to FTTH)… for the most part both parties annoy me.

      • Observer
        Posted 17/07/2013 at 12:15 pm | Permalink |

        ” I can’t help but to think that people are basically stupid.”

        It must be very painful to be so intelligent and be surrounded, as you are, by human stupidity. Shame, though, your great intellect does not include an ability to spell a basic word like ‘someone” or the ability to express yourself more eloquently.

        Nevertheless, I want to thank you for remind us mere mortals what constitutes science. Without your wisdom, none of us would have discovered that “25mbps is not enough” is both a theory and an hypothesis.

      • Soth
        Posted 17/07/2013 at 1:03 pm | Permalink |

        I need upload speed my friend! Uplooaaaaaad!

        • djos
          Posted 17/07/2013 at 1:14 pm | Permalink |

          Same, a 50/20 plan will be perfect for me – 100/40 is even better but the former plans are slightly more affordable and meet my current bandwidth requirements.

      • Tinman_au
        Posted 17/07/2013 at 2:27 pm | Permalink |

        “Less than” 1Mbps downloading a 700-800Mb file take a lot longer than “less than 30 minutes”, it’s much closer to 2 hours.

        50Mbps takes < 30 mins for a 1Gb file.

        Also, the cost difference between the NBN and the LBN to the taxpayer is $900m.

        • Invid
          Posted 17/07/2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink |

          Hmm, right you are… (after a quick play with a calculator)
          This means that either my client lies (doubtful), or is showing Kbps (as in kilobytes per second NOT kilobits) and I never thought it through (as I already stated my view that people are basically stupid includes myself). Good pick up. My maximum speed would therefore be a little under 8mbps (as megabits).
          Sorry for confusing matters with my own foolishness.
          Though I still see 25mbps as reasonable, if justified by the savings.

          • Tinman_au
            Posted 17/07/2013 at 5:10 pm | Permalink |

            It’s ok mate, you probably start the download and go back later like everyone else does, pretty easy to misjudge it.

            Also, you probably live on your own I’m guessing? :o) Having a wife and daughter downloading (and sometimes a boarder in the flat) means even my 50Mbps gets a flakey if I want to stream a Bigpond Movie…

    14. Observer
      Posted 17/07/2013 at 12:16 pm | Permalink |

      to remind us not for remind us.




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      Most companies that live and breathe the online revolution are not tech startups, but smart smaller firms that use online tools to run their core business better: to cut costs, reach customers and suppliers, innovate and get more control. Many others, however, are falling behind, according to a new Grattan Institute discussion paper.

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