Parties should stop “squabbling” over NBN, says Internet Australia

102

news Internet Australia (IA), the peak body representing Internet users, has repeated its call for the National Broadband Network to be removed from the political debate.

The organisation’s CEO, Laurie Patton, called instead for a focus on the “long-term benefits of building a fast broadband network” and for the debate about the NBN’s construction costs to be “put into perspective”.

“We didn’t have this sort of squabbling when it came to the Snowy Mountains Scheme or the Sydney Harbour Bridge. These projects, like the NBN, were long-term investments in the country’s future and were rightly seen as such,” Patton said.

“How can we become an innovation nation if we don’t have the tools required?” he asked, adding: “One of those tools is a competitive NBN; one that is on par with the broadband speeds in the countries in our region with whom we will need to compete in the emerging digitally [enabled] world economy.”

In the week the NBN Co announced is now accessible in two million homes, the CEO suggested the way forward now is to focus on signing up new customers to the broadband service.

“The more customers on the NBN, the more revenue they’ll receive and the less money they will need to borrow to complete the rollout,” Patton said.

IA has also renewed its call for an end to the use of copper cable in the NBN network.

With the availability of new, lower cost, optical fibre and following a survey of the organisation’s members that found 80 percent were dissatisfied with the current mixed-technology method (MTM), it is time for a “strategic rethink” of the use of copper it said.

IA said that a recent hearing of the Senate’s NBN Select Committee was shown the so-called “skinny fibre” – a cheaper and easier to install technology that is now in use by the NBN.

This was not available when the decision was made to adopt FTTN, it pointed out.

“By the time NBN is getting ready to announce the completion of its rollout, if not sooner, it will be time to start replacing the inferior copper-based FTTN [fibre to the node] network. Millions of dollars of ‘sunk costs’ will have been wasted,” Patton said

Until then, he suggested, homes connected via FTTN will see their Internet access speeds remain “fairly static”, while others benefitting from fibre to the premises (FTTP) will see their speeds increasing over time.

“There is a limit to how much faster we can make the copper go, whereas fibre networks will experience significant speed gains in coming years”, Patton concluded.

Image credit: NBN company

102 COMMENTS

  1. I’m pretty sure Malcolm would describe this as squabbling. ….
    “By the time NBN is getting ready to announce the completion of its rollout, if not sooner, it will be time to start replacing the inferior copper-based FTTN [fibre to the node] network. Millions of dollars of ‘sunk costs’ will have been wasted,” Patton said

    • Turnbull, Morrow, the criminally paid-for SR13 as well as a host of experts who actually know what they’re talking about – all of them claim FTTP is the ‘end goal’ 5-10 years after completion of MTM. And that was the original MTM plan of 2016 completion. So between 2021-2026 Australia NEEDS FTTP. With completion date of MTM now being 2020 (likely to be delayed as far as 2024 by 2019 election) the time to start building the FTTP network – according to ALL parties – is NOW.

      Coalition ‘logic’ fucked themselves (and all Australians) over – To the tune of $23-$49b and up to 7 years.

    • No, Alfred Q, just delivering the facts. There is some chance of increasing the speeds over copper in the future but it is limited. On the other hand, once the fibre has been laid, at relatively low capex costs we’ll be able to upgrade the equipment at the head end in the future to deliver vastly superior speeds. Singapore already delivers speeds 100 times faster than ours. If we hope to be a competitive innovation nation we’ll need a broadband network on par with our competitors. That’s not squabbling that’s just stating the bleeding obvious.

      • Thanks Laurie….I am with you 100% ….
        You are so very right with your assessment and yet there are still people out there who confuse “squabble” with “facts”, Turnbull is one of theme.
        Thanks for trying to set me straight though. It is obvious my sarcasm got lost in translation….

        Thanks again and keep up the fight

        Regards

        Alfred

      • The problem with copper is that the cost of the solution outweighs the benefits, which are short term at best.

        Our speed needs double every two years, and have broadly done so since the 90’s. Even if that slows down, its not going to stop, so a simple extrapolation suggests out basic needs will hit 100 Mbps some time around 2021.

        Which means 200 Mbps around 2023. If copper can do that with FttN, whats it going to cost, and how long would it take to roll out?

        What happens in 2025 when we are looking at 400 Mbps? Or 2027 when its 800 Mbps? Even allowing for a slowdown of speed needs, its not going to push those needs out any more than a couple of years.

        Copper is at its extreme limits, and any advances can only hold off the oncoming tide for a year or two at best before something new is needed just to keep up. Thats not efficient.

        And the complaint that “we wont need those speeds” ignores history completely.

        • What you and other ‘need for speed’ spinners constantly overlook is what residents who are connected want from the NBN.

          Latest March 2016 fixed line speed tier mix has 80% on 12/1 and 25/5, only 15% want 100/40.

          Was is interesting about the 100/40 mix is that it has fallen from 19% in March 2015.

          Internet Australia ignored it also, understandably.

          • It’s a good thing the Sydney Harbor bridge was built by Labor and not conservatives or it would have been only 2 lanes and been obsolete 5 years after it was finished!!

          • Lol then can you explain why FTTN on 7% are on 100Mbpsshoikd it by 15% as well or is it becuase they can’t get those speeds.

            But then you also forgot that is want speeds people are choosing now and is only required to deliver yet it won’t be complete for another 4 year 25Mbps for all by this year lol. Oh wait that’s right the CBA said we only need 15Mbps which ADSL already delivers.

            Derek O
            Nah would have bee a barge to ferry across

          • Of course the overwhelming majority of those fixed line stats on 100/40 are on FTTP, it helps the ‘need for speed’ spin argument to totally ignore that also.

          • Actually DO I’m pretty sure there wouldn’t even be a bridge if the conservatives back then had their way.

            Scarily enough its looking like we might not have an MTM at this rate just a bit red budget hole.

          • “Of course the overwhelming majority of those fixed line stats on”

            so what? with those figures (I believe still within NBN Co estimates given them a ~7% ROI) the original network wouldn’t be in dire financial straights like MTM is.

          • What you and the other flat earthers refuse to understand is that you need to consider the future when building infrastructure. The whole frikin point of what I posted was about what we need in just 10 years, which recent history says FttN cant deliver.

            How hard is that to understand? Basic modelling shows it cant deliver the likely standard needs around the time its expected to be finished.

            Its not just about today, get your head out of that mentality and perhaps you might contribute something meaningful. Highly unlikely, but try.

            But we’ll try it your way. Lets say FttN can deliver our needs until 2025. What happens then? How do you double the speeds for 2027, or quadruple them for 2029?

            By your own admission this has taken 6 years to get to this point, and for the vast majority they have squat to show for it (*edit* not me, I have 100/40). So right NOW, the system cant cope with demand for most, as shown repeatedly by our ever increasing download demands.

            Whats THAT going to be like in 2 years, or 4, or 6?

            Think about the next 50 years, not the past 50 alain, infrastructure is never built with the past in mind.

            *edit 2* apparently the logarithmic growth of our needs will stop overnight Wolfe. But that graph is one of the key arguments I have against FttN, and copper specifically, because the laws of physics demand a law of diminishing returns.

          • Got all of that, so how long before FTTP stats are reversed, 80% on 100/40 and the rest on 12/1 and 25/5, around the time when they drop the two lower speed options because no one wants them.

          • How long is a piece of string? Again, thats not the point I’m making, stop trying to change it to that.

            If you want a number, I’ll go with 2023, its as good as any. Can be 2027, it doesnt change the point. Which is that any investment into FttN today is dead money because that future point where its redundant is so close.

            If this was 1999, you’d be arguing against ADSL because most people were still happy with 56k connections.

          • GG,

            Oh I see plucking figures out of the air, but first all what you need to to do is reverse the trend of residences moving away from 100/40.

            It’s getting worse not better, in case you hadn’t noticed.

          • Devoid does a decease in cost of FTTP from the SR to CP16 is the result of the cost blowout in the CP16. Yes or No.

            If it yes then going but your standards the decrease in figures means more people are picking 100Mbps

          • umm yeah whatever that means, but it’s not meant to make sense is it Rizz.

            The latest speed tier mix figures are from the NBN Third Quarter Results released last Friday, in which they compare the speed tier movements from the same period last year.

            You and the other deniers wish they didn’t keep presenting facts all the time, there is just so many smoke & mirrors to go around.

          • Ahh devoid so FTTP cost decease isn’t the result of the CP16 cost blowout even though you have claimed it does.

            Can you explain why FTTN figures are at 7% on 100Mbps and not 15% as well. Wouldn’t it be the result they can’t get those speeds.

          • @ alain

            And yet you told us only a few years back that people were and would be very happy on ADSL speeds didn’t you alain?

            And that faster speeds were a waste, didn’t you alain?

            Are they still happy and will they still be happy on ADSL speeds alain?

            Regardless, why are we spending anywhere from $45B-$70B (depending on the adult…lol) on a copper based network with possible g.fast and HFC with possible DOCSIS 3.1, if everyone is happy with ADSL speeds,
            a l a i n ?

            Really it’s time you flat earthers gave yourselves a swift uppercut, stopped the political fellationics™ and entered 2016 with the rest of us including your previous poster boys… BT…

            You’re welcome.

          • @alain – in 1999 people werent connecting to the highest speed tiers of ADSL either, but the infrastructure was still capable of those blistering speeds.

            Why cant you admit that this is about what happens in the future rather than the past?

          • The latest speed tier mix figures are from the NBN Third Quarter Results released last Friday, in which they compare the speed tier movements from the same period last year.

            You and the other deniers wish they didn’t keep presenting facts all the time, there is just so many smoke & mirrors to go around.

            Instead of abusing everyone, how about you think about it a bit?

            If 1 year ago, there were 100 people on FttP out of a total pool of 200 and they were accessing the NBN at 100/40, then they’d make a tier of 50%.

            If you stop FttP and use something else that can’t do 100/40, what’s going to happen?

            So move the time to now:

            100 on FttP at 100/40 (so unchanged)
            100 on FttN at the average of 46/something*
            50 on FW at 25/5
            50 on Sat at 25/5

            Then the 100/40 tier is now only 33%. That’s why the 100/40 tier is shrinking, and why it isn’t about demand, it’s about the fact that most of the MtM can’t offer that tier.

            * http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/07/average-theoretical-speed-fttn-nbn-46mbps/

  2. “Internet Australia (IA), the peak body representing Internet users, has repeated its call for the National Broadband Network to be removed from the political debate.

    IA has also renewed its call for an end to the use of copper cable in the NBN network.”

    You couldn’t write better comedy. The science is settled they squeal;-)

    • Turnbull, Morrow, the criminally paid-for SR13 as well as a host of experts who actually know what they’re talking about – all of them claim FTTP is the ‘end goal’ 5-10 years after completion of MTM. And that was the original MTM plan of 2016 completion. So between 2021-2026 Australia NEEDS FTTP. With completion date of MTM now being 2020 (likely to be delayed as far as 2024 by 2019 election) the time to start building the FTTP network – according to ALL parties – is NOW.

      Coalition ‘logic’ fucked themselves (and all Australians) over – To the tune of $23-$49b and up to 7 years.

    • The science is settled. Finance is as well, but you keep banging that drum Richard.

      I am guessing you think anthropomorphic global warming is false too.

      • The problem is people like Richard keep conflating “All science is settled”, which is an obviously false assertion, with “This particular bit of science is settled”, which applies to many bits of science that they rely on in their everyday life (electromagnetism, for one…) in addition to understanding the root causes of climate change.

        Also, “settled” doesn’t mean “We’ve answered every question that could be asked about this topic” – it’s more like “We’ve got the basics down pat, now we need to work out the fine details”.

    • You couldn’t write better comedy. The science is settled they squeal;-)

      That it? That’s all your towering intellect could come up with? I’m disappointed in you Richard.

      • Hope you learned a lesson today Tinman. When it comes to coalition clown broadband plans and RR comments the general rule is you should always set the bar low.

        • I find its easiest to just leave it lying on the ground – the LNP and their supporters will always manage to dig a trench under it anyway!

        • Hope you learned a lesson today Tinman. When it comes to coalition clown broadband plans and RR comments the general rule is you should always set the bar low.

          I’ve learnt the error of my ways now Hubert, in the future I’ll just expect an MtM level of intellect from him.

    • No we can’t do comedy, we do facts… but you obviously can do comedy, well… and we have seen it for years…

      How’s that MTM comedy plan of your’s going again, Richard?

      Want a few hints?

      https://delimiter.com.au/2016/02/28/litany-of-problems-internal-nbn-doc-warns-of-fttn-failures/

      https://delimiter.com.au/2016/03/16/truth-fibre-node-dead/

      http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/the-nbn-why-its-slow-expensive-and-obsolete-20150908-gji0pr.html

      And my fav.. from a Republican/L(l)ibertarian mover and shaker and ex-US presidential nominee Steve Forbes, one I’m sure you laud and aspire to… and reported on Fox (so you can’t even claim left bias, lol)…

      http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/04/11/copper-wire-technology-whose-time-has-passed.html

      You’re welcome (and as I have said, I keep this facetious parting gesture, exclusively for those “special (one may say comedic” posters)…

  3. “We didn’t have this sort of squabbling when it came to the Snowy Mountains Scheme or the Sydney Harbour Bridge.” IA need to learn some history, the conservatives of the time were heavily against the Sydney Harbour Bridge due to its cost and its quite a feat that it got built at all.

    • Which illustrates the larger point about the enduring worth of historic projects like the bridge or the NBN, and the inability of small-minded conservatives to understand the future

    • The Snowy Mountains Scheme was also opposed by the conservatives at the time, it barely survived when they took government in 1949.

      The Opera House ditto.

      In fact there is pretty much no iconic piece of Australian infrastructure that wasn’t opposed and/or wrecked by the conservatives.

    • Hi Michael M… Menzies argued against the Snowy Mountains Scheme, when he was in opposition, because it was being imposed by the Federal Government on the states. He claimed the Commonwealth did not have the authority to over-ride the states, who couldn’t agree on the purpose or the design. In government, however, he changed his mind and lauded the scheme. Hopefully, in time Mr Turnbull will dump the copper-based FTTN model forced on him by Abbott and laud a full fibre network. If Menzies can change his mind, then surely Turnbull can?

      • @Laurie P: You’re thinking of different political/economic times. I rather doubt if MT will be able to “change his mind” anytime soon w/ this political climate where the extremes of both sides of the party are the loudest and have almost complete control

        • Hi RocK_M… I have absolute confidence that Turnbull will dump FTTN as soon as he can find enough ‘wriggle’ room to avoid looking like he’s back flipping. Sadly, it probably won’t be until after the election.

          • “I have absolute confidence that Turnbull will dump FTTN as soon as he can find enough ‘wriggle’ room to avoid looking like he’s back flipping”

            I completely disagree, the Coalition is showing every sign that they are committed to the FTTN/MTM vision and will not change it.

          • +1 Renai, all the analysis’s of Malcolm’s character seem to indicate he doesnt like to be wrong and will carry on regardless of the facts until they bite him on the rear end … Hard!

            eg UteGate aka Godwin Gretch affair

          • I had the same hopes as you Laurie, but sadly I’m less enthusiastic about seeing them change.

            Its sad, there has been 9 years of squabbling over this, and right now FTTdp gives a political olive branch to both parties to largely do the right thing by Australia, but it still wont be taken.

            At least not yet, theres still 52 days of politicking to go and neither have really released a detailed comms policy yet.

            I hold hope they will both be broadly the same, and revolve around FTTdp, but am now waiting to see it happen before I cheer. I’m giving Turnbull room to either do the right thing, or screw up another opportunity.

          • Laurie we’d hoped so we all really did.

            Pretty much if he’d announce a tech capable minister to take over then we’d have a small chance of a back flip.

            Instead we get the very capable and steady hands of Fifield … a politicians politician. That sealed the Cu MTM’s fate as the MTM is a policy MT and the LNP are stuck with.

          • I agree with Renai, Turnbull himself might have at some point. But The party as a whole appears to disagree, and Turnbull has shown he is nothing more than a well spoken puppet.

          • End of the day, history will judge the MTM policy. Do we look back at the past 3 years in hindsight, and see fiscal responsibility, regardless of the outcomes, or will the inevitable future overbuild to FttP be shown to be so expensive and problem ridden that it should have been done in the first place?

            Most of us have already judged one way or the other, but we just wont know for sure for way too long. Personally, I dont think the historians will look upon the Liberal policy nicely.

    • Recommend they read the book “The Bridge”. IIRC the squabbling over the Harbour Bridge went on for 50 years prior to being built and beyond.

    • Don’t forget Medicare on that list as well…

      And boy did the Libs try on that one too! Medibank Private anyone?

      • Not tried to kill medicare, they did kill Medicare and iirc Hawke told them that every time they killed it, Labor would bring it back so they’ve been attacking it in small bites instead ever since.

    • Yeah I was thinking exactly the same thing as I read that. Pretty stupid of IA to get that so wrong…

    • Don’t forget the Opera House…

      Apparently the “adults” of the day, even stopped payments to those involved…

      Would anyone now argue the sheer value in tourist dollars, let alone anything else, has re-paid the costs well and truly if not ten fold?

      As usual the ultra conservatives are great at hindsight, not so good at foresight.

  4. They should have said something 3 years ago then maybe we would have had more FTTP rolled out

    • Hi Jason K… Internet Australia (aka ISOC-AU) has been arguing for a fibre based NBN from the outset (long before I joined as CEO).

      • Laurie, it’s a real shame you guy’s cant get better traction in the MSM, TurnBull has so far gotten away, largely unscathed, with the largest infrastructure heist in Australian history!!

          • Laurie, I agree however it would be nice if at least Fairfax could be convinced a real NBN is in their best interests considering they’ve been investing heavily in digital platforms. (inc Stan)

          • Laurie P,
            An inferior NBN suits the business interests of certain MSM outlets.

            In what way exactly?

  5. Renai… The Government is certainly showing every sign that they are committed to “MTM”. That’s not the same as being committed to FTTN. NBN is already maneuvering such that they could effectively dump FTTN simply by expanding the areas allocated FTTdp, and even FTTP. Remember that two years ago Turnbull was quoted saying that of course they’d use fibre “wherever it makes sense to do so”. That’s the precursor to ‘wriggle room’.

    • Laurie, 1 FTTdp test premises installed 12 months ago does not indicate any sort of shift whatsoever, in fact it pretty much confirms a lack of interest in it.

    • Sorry Laurie, I think you’re missing the point – the MTM is not and never has been a technical solution, it is a political one. You can’t provide a logical technical solution to a politically motivated plan. There is nothing technically, financially or logistically superior about the MTM, so its purpose for existence cannot be considered in those terms.

      I wrote as much about Paul Budde’s argument about the LNP moving to FTTdp – I recommend you take a look (and save me spamming this page up with the same argument): https://delimiter.com.au/2016/04/07/call-arms-budde-says-fttdp-nbn-needs-support/#li-comment-728738

      If you want to make a difference in this debate you need to stop thinking about it in technical terms, because it has never been a technical argument, it’s a political one. Malcolm has always been ready with plausible sounding responses to technical arguments that sufficiently bamboozle the general public. What’s required is an educated media who understand the financial ramifications, not just to this project, but to the economy and the future prosperity of the whole country. This isn’t just about being limited to slow broadband for ten years, it is about Telstra having their own mafia style racket that we can never escape from – the Telstra Tax is only going to get worse from here on in and it will crush this nation because the massive inefficiency will never allow us to compete with more agile neighbours with vastly cheaper infrastructure. Australian Technology companies (and eventually all companies, as Technology becomes more and more integral to everyone’s operation) will be forced to mover overseas just to remain competitive. An order of magnitude acceleration of the brain drain.

      • UninvitedGuest… You’re correct in stating that MTM is a political solution not a technical one. Where you’ve missed the point is that Internet Australia has consistently recognised this, which is why we keep highlighting the need for a 21st Century NBN – #FibreToTheFuture. However, to have any credibility as an advocate for this we also need to challenge the technical misinformation being touted and also note the failure of the MTM model to deliver “faster, cheaper” as was its supposed rationale.

        • The original Labor rollout had to cut it’s original FTTP targets by 50% at the end in 2013, one of the key reasons a alternative NBN MtM model was voted in.

          I would also be interested to know why you think overbuilding copper and HFC infrastructure which the NBN Co now own with $4,400 FTTP brownfields CPP is the cost effective and faster to deploy choice?

          • The original coalition had cuts its original fttn target by 55% at the end of 2013. By 2016 they missed it by 75%.

            There fixed it for you

          • @Jason K

            Didn’t they “adjust” their targets three times in a row? Could have sworn I read that on Delimiter somewhere…

          • Tin man_au

            They adjusted there FTTP targets 3 times in 2014 so they could claim they hit a target after tanking the rollout

          • Rizz,

            The original coalition had cuts its original fttn target by 55% at the end of 2013. By 2016 they missed it by 75%.

            Links to NBN announcements stating these stats.

          • Links to NBN announcements stating these stats.

            They didn’t come through (or you forgot to paste them?).

          • Lol devoid even though I have supplied it to you in the past ( must have a memory of a fish) here it is again.

            “our aim is that everyone in the nation should have access to broadband with download data rates of between 25 and 100 megabits per second by 2016”
            http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/1311_nbn.pdf

            “43% (4.3 million) connected by 2016”
            http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/NBN-Co-Strategic-Review-Report.pdf

            “2.6 million RFS 2016”
            http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco2/documents/nbn-corporate-plan-2016.pdf

          • @Jason K

            They aren’t ‘cuts’ to the target, just adjustments!

            Don’t you know that the coalition never misses it’s targets, just Labor…

          • JK,

            What you originally said.

            The original coalition had cuts its original fttn target by 55% at the end of 2013. By 2016 they missed it by 75%.

            Your response and links does not answer my question, because what you do is.

            1. You infer rollout targets have not been met, you then change when challenged to the Coalition pre election 2016 speed promise has not been met as if it is the same thing as a rollout target.

            2. When you provide NBN Co links you carefully copy and paste only what you want to appear and cut around the context and never ever give page no’s within the document of where you took it from.

            3. It’s not even half way through 2016 yet let alone the end of it, so you infer ‘2016 targets have not been met’ as if it’s New Years Eve 2016, and has been since the year 2016 started.

            In reference to your RFS figure the latest Q3 FY2016 has RFS premises at 2,009,529.

            BTW “43% (4.3 million) connected by 2016”

            This statement is on what page in SR13?

          • @ alain…

            Err, just another friendly reminder to A G A I N disengage the alain dick head mode, as you are not replying to me…

            I know it’s confusing for you, but we are patient and take pity :)

            You know that you aren’t replying to me, because unlike the other guys here, I don’t prolong your stupidity and nip it in the bud by simply re-posting your previous stupid comments (as opposed to you current stupid comments) which completely contradict each other.

            It’s actually PRICELESS to consider that anyone doing as yopu do, could expect anything they utter to be taken seriously, let alone actually take themselves seriously, when talking such completely contradictory, double standard BS!

            It is my pleasure… seeing you run faster from your own previous comments than Forrest. In fact it is heartening if not overwhelmingly side-splittingly funny.

            You’re welcome.

          • So devoid after replying to you asking for links you need to be pointed out where on the pages it is lol.

            1. So a target 25Mbps to all by 2016 apparently not a rollout target the best trying to change the goal post ever lol.
            Or better yet on pave 112 of the Stragic review “the Strategic Review does not see a viable path to NBN Co delivering 25Mbps to ~100 percent of the fixed line footprint by 2016.”

            2. Page 17
            table 0-2
            43% by 2016
            Page 18
            “40-45 percent of the fixed line footprint will have at least 25Mbps in CY16 provided by NBN Co;”

            3. That’s the current target look a lot different from
            1. delivering 25Mbps to ~100 percent of the fixed line footprint by 2016
            or
            2. 40-45 percent of the fixed line footprint will have at least 25Mbps in CY16 provided by NBN Co
            Doesn’t it

          • I know Tim but it’s a laugh with his reply like 25Mbps to all isn’t a rollout target lol

        • Hi Laurie,

          Sorry, I didn’t miss any point. I’ve been following this (including IA’s tactics) for many years. IA’s strategy is to point out it is political by highlighting technical incongruitites, but you haven’t published a comprehensive rejection of the MTM approach based on the flawed financials, you haven’t attacked the corrupt political appointment of Telstra executives that have retained their shareholdings or the valueless strategic review written by known political opponents of Labor and the original NBN, you haven’t tried to bring public attention to Malcolm’s comprehensive deceit, undermining the NBN’s ROI model making it an ever-expanding whirlpool of debt. I could go on, but hopefully you get my point – you can’t separate the NBN from its financials nor the assumptions and contrivances that provided the flimsy basis for the MTM changes. These deficiencies should be raised at every opportunity, because it is only through repetitively pointing out *why* the MTM is a corrupt fraud and deception that people will slowly be educated on the topic and come to realise just how important the topic is.

          But your statement above says volumes about your approach:
          “I have absolute confidence that Turnbull will dump FTTN as soon as he can find enough ‘wriggle’ room to avoid looking like he’s back flipping.”
          What you’ve said here flies in the face of your statement about understanding this as a political issue. What you’re saying is FTTN will be replaced because there are better technical solutions. Wrong. You clearly haven’t understood what I wrote – FTTN is inferior, on every metric. It was a political decision, but the rationale for that decision doesn’t stack up if it was ‘just to be different’. It only makes sense if they were trying to achieve some significant objective. The objective you and many have come to was to utterly undermine the NBN, to ‘destroy’ it. But for what end? There must be some motivation.

          That motivation was clearly to allow Telstra to regain monopoly control. Now, how does changing the technical solution play with that objective? It doesn’t – FTTN is the complete solution until the NBN has collapsed so thoroughly that it has been successfully divested into Telstra’s ownership. At that point you’ll see it upgraded, sure, but only so they can fleece the country. Indefinitely.

          This end game must be opposed at all costs. Even a castrated and damaged NBN like we have now can be turned around with enough political will and public support, but once it’s been privatised? I can’t see an Australian Government nationalising a private company or their assets.

          So get serious IA – you’re playing a softly softly game on a field of blood. At best you’ll simply be ignored, but at worst you’ll be chewed up and trampled. Time to understand the game you’re involved in and bring everything you’ve got – nothing else has any hope at this point.

          • Nailed it UG, IA need to get off the fence, get real and speak the unfiltered truth.

            Pussyfooting around the issues you highlighted will achieve nothing!

      • UninvitedGuest,

        the MTM is not and never has been a technical solution,

        Yes it has, FTTP to 93% is not the absolute ‘technical solution’ just because you say it is.

        it is a political one.

        All NBN rollouts rollots follow the directive and NBN policy platform of the Government in power, as such a Government backed rollout is always going to be a political solution.

        You can’t provide a logical technical solution to a politically motivated plan.

        See above.

        There is nothing technically, financially or logistically superior about the MTM, so its purpose for existence cannot be considered in those terms.

        There certainly is, MtM infrastucture is rolled out successfully the world over and the advantages of MtM have been put forward many times, but if you have set your mind that only FTTP offers those solutions you can close your mind to all other argument and look the other way constantly so that it becomes second nature.

        • UG: “the MTM is not and never has been a technical solution”

          alain: “Yes it has, FTTP to 93% is not the absolute ‘technical solution’ just because you say it is.”

          Rizz: “No it hasn’t just because you say it has”

          See what I did there?

          Two can play the childish alain “game of bemoans”…

          Oh sorry, that’s right there”s an election just around the corner and you need to do your job … deflecting all blame from the “biggest construction disaster in Oz’s history – the MTM”

          Good boy.

          Youre welcome.

        • All NBN rollouts rollots follow the directive and NBN policy platform of the Government in power, as such a Government backed rollout is always going to be a political solution.

          Bullshit.

          The original NBN was based off the advice of the Panel of Experts, not what Labor wanted to do (which was FttN at the time).

          Malcolm’s MtM was based off his Googling what the UK was doing. He even had a full FAQ up for it before even talking to any experts (much like his “fully costed and funded” bubble). The MtM is entirely political, and it’s really showing in it’s delays and blowouts now.

  6. Let’s stop our squabble and concentrate on what’s important, @Reality @Ritchard Can you please explain to me why you always refuses to use the facts and logic ? you always seem to support the coalition Vision which is TOTALLY GARBAGE, I don’t support a party I support the Correct way of building the nbn ( I could care less about either party, I just had enough of stupid comments ).

    By the way, the nbn is coming to my area and according to the data I won’t be able to get more than 35 mg/s because I’m 800 meters away from the node , so according to your comments @Reality I don’t need 100 mb/s!!! Smh.

  7. Charlie,

    @Reality Can you please explain to me why you always refuses to use the facts and logic ?

    Except when I do use facts and logic you mean, as in linking to the latest speed tier results in the Q3 FY2016 NBN Report to support a point of view, or infrastructure CPP statistics from NBN CP 16.

    you always seem to support the coalition Vision which is TOTALLY GARBAGE,

    Oh I see, the phrase ‘TOTALLY GARBAGE’ is your facts and logic is it?

    :)

    • ROFL…

      “Except when I do use facts and logic…”

      And there it is.

      A clear admission from the horses mouth that facts and logic aren’t always (I’d suggest never) used…

      PRICELESS

      Your welcome

  8. NBN shouldn’t have been kept as a political toy to be played with for political gains. That way NBN CO might have just been able to get on with the best method they deemed the best.

    • I keep hearing this argument again and again, as though both parties are equally to blame. Sorry, but that’s simply not true – Labor decided to do something about the telecommunications sector because people and businesses had been complaining about it for over a decade, while Telstra had proven comprehensively disinterested in doing anything proactive (well, unless the government were prepared to give them billions in publicly funds as incentives). So it was obvious there was a problem, it was obvious they needed a solution and it was obvious the private sector wasn’t going to solve it on its own.

      You may recall that the private sector were asked to tender a plan to solve the telecommunications problem, where the industry were generally unable to tender a decent solution and Telstra thumbed their noses at the whole process – I think they submitted a three page F.U. and didn’t even meet the deadline, if I remember correctly. Rudd went to the election promising to solve it, and so he could show he had concrete plans he had a FTTN policy. Conroy and Rudd then put together an expert panel and asked them for advice. The expert panel came back and said FTTN would be unworkable – it would be difficult and expensive because Telstra owned the network, not the government. And it would be obsolete by the time it was finished. The recommendation was for a mostly FTTP build. Crazy as it seems, the Government took their advice.

      The most political thing the ALP did about the NBN was try to take credit for it. During their term of government they passed hundreds of pieces of legislation that were comprehensively ignored by the media. They were crucified by the media and the Opposition for things like the Pink Batts, a scheme to help less fortunate Australians have better insulation improving both their quality of life and reduce national energy costs, despite the fact that a) the accidents and poor work quality were outside their control and b) as a proportion of the total project the ratio of dodgy operators and safety concerns was actually extremely low – it’s only because the LNP could politicise it that there was an issue, but instead of highlighting the favourable safety record they focused on the statistical outliers.

      So you can probably forgive the ALP for banging on about a project that they started, that wouldn’t have been attempted if it hadn’t been for them, that the LNP were promising to destroy, that was one of the few things they could get the media to talk about in favourable terms (and which the media mostly chose to report negatively anyway – remember the hundreds of negative articles compared with the handful of favourable ones in the mainstream media?) and that the public were fully supportive of. If that’s using the issue as a political football I have to ask, do you expect a Government to engage in every project and initiative without ever promoting what they’re doing? How the hell can the public be expected to know what their Government is doing if they never talk about it?

      What the LNP did was utterly political – they took a project designed by experts and engineers and changed it based on political policy. They’ve tried to twist everything about it into political attacks. Not only did their claimed facts not stand up to initial scrutiny, they have failed to achieve any of the benefits they claimed to be able to deliver in the subsequent three years – it was all a deception for political (and corrupt, fraudulent purposes).

      So let’s be honest – the NBN has been politicised by one party – the LNP. It can’t be a political football if your argument is factual – the ALP are quite factually saying that FTTP was always the best choice (based on engineering, physics and economics) and also quite factually saying if you want any hope of FTTP you can’t vote for the LNP. The LNP are saying the MTM is prudent, which is simply not true – it is more expensive to build, more expensive to run, has lower profitability, takes about the same amount of time to build anyway, and is so much slower it will be obsolete before it is complete. So the rationale is political, sold to the public on falsehoods.

      It’s about time people started calling the LNP put for politicising the NBN and stopped trying to paint the ALP with the same brush, because such behaviour is utterly inaccurate and disingenuous. The ALP, from all its flaws, tried to do something visionary and brilliant – they should be thanked and celebrated for it, not dragged down into the mud by a politically motivated media and public.

      • Great post UninvitedGuest +1

        The recommendation was for a mostly FTTP build. Crazy as it seems, the Government took their advice.

        This is exactly why I endorsed the plan. They listened to the experts, the experts that knew exactly what the nation needed to satisfy current and future needs. That is a majority FttP build.

  9. @Reality

    Again you refused to see the picture , those nbn report are showing nothing than that people cannot order the speed they want on FTTN , according to your geniuously knowledge you want people to pay what they will not have (speed) excellent , Australia is doomed if the majority thinks like you.

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