Call to arms: Budde says FTTdp NBN needs our support

154

news Independent telecommunications consultant Paul Budde has called for Australians to do more to ensure the rollout a “future-proof” NBN that includes a full-fibre network (including FTTdp) rather than the fibre and copper mix that is currently being promoted by government.

Writing on the BuddeComm blog, Budde said that, going by statements made by Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare over the last year, it is likely that Labor will push for an NBN that will maximise the fibre to the home (FTTH) option as the election approaches.

However, in reality, he added, this will also mean deploying fibre to the distribution point (FTTdp) in combination with ‘skinny fibre; which relies on using the existing copper cable to provide the last few metres of connectivity, and may cause problems for those premises already linked to a fibre to the node (FTTN) system.

There are also issues with the existing hybrid fiber-coaxial (HFC) network meaning it will be more difficult to deploy FTTdp in those places if the NBN starts to upgrade the HFC network.

Regarding the Coalition government’s stance, “As [NBN CEO] Bill Morrow has clearly indicated, he likes the FTTdp network, and he also indicated that the ball is in the court of the Prime Minister to decide how to proceed with the NBN,” Budde said.

“Reading between the lines, looking at the body language of the CEO, and taking into account the ongoing stream of leaks that are coming out of the NBN company, it is clear to me that there is a significant force at play in the company, trying to nudge the NBN more and more in the direction of a full-fibre network,” he added.

Budde further said that “these good people” within the NBN will need the support of people who can “influence the political situation”.

However, a “major stumbling block” will be the Prime Minister himself, he suggested. Malcolm Turnbull is pushing for the “second-rate” multi-technology mix as it is being rolled out at the moment.

In his “already vulnerable” political position, it will be “very hard for him to backflip on the issue”, Budde said.

As a potential solution to all of this, Budde suggested that FTTdp could be used and still be classified as a ‘multi-mix technology’.

However, “I am not sure is that is enough to persuade the PM to open the door to using FTTdp rather than FttN,” he said.

How the issue plays out will depend on how hard the opposition is going to push on the NBN in its election campaign. “If it stays soft on the issue, it becomes more difficult for the NBN company to push its FTTdp deployment further into the market,” Budde said.

Rounding off he called for “anybody in favour of a better NBN” to assist using the political cycle to promote the use of a full-fibre network through their connections in communities, industry, politics or media.

“There is now a chance for us to ensure that Australia will get a much more future-proof NBN and we should not miss the opportunity to at least try and make this happen,” Budde concluded.

Image credit: Paul Budde

154 COMMENTS

  1. I think those who have needed to say their part have already said it.

    The MTM is digging itself deeper and deeper into a hell hole by itself as time progresses.

    The chickens are now coming home to roost.

    The general public is finally waking up to the fact that MTM is the biggest lemon this country has ever seen.

    • I had a funny incident 2 weeks ago. I was walking through an area where the NBN was being rolled out. There were trucks everywhere. I saw a postman in his 50’s on his bike. So I asked him “what do you think of the NBN”. He said “the NBN is great. Pity that this is the crap NBN being rolled out that doesn’t go all the way to the house. So this NBN won’t make any difference. It’s a joke”.

      I was amazed. He got it. He’s no tech head. He’s just a postie. It’s getting through to people; it really is.

      • This sort of thing doesn’t surprise me. As the years go by more will wake up, it’s inevitable. It’s what the coalition clowns failed to consider with their MTM patchwork folly.

      • “I was amazed. He got it. He’s no tech head. He’s just a postie. It’s getting through to people; it really is.”

        Man, I know plenty of people who aren’t working in tech related fields that still know about tech. Just because he was in his 50’s and a Postie doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand technology :-/

        • The need to remind oneself is important; we surround ourselves with Communications Ministers and CEOs that fit that description perfectly.

        • Well I’m 65 and I know about it so does my son 25 and my daughter 26 because I tell them and my 68 year old sister when she listens but she’s fed-up with me doing on about it, no point telling my 70+ other sister because she is an idiot and her husband is a moron. Remember kids you didn’t invent the internet your parents did, your just rolling in their glory.

          • “Remember kids you didn’t invent the internet your parents did, your just rolling in their glory.”

            Lol excuse me? I think you mean Malcolm Turnbull did.

          • Gav, right sorry.

            Australia’s internet is special, I often forget its different to the internet outside of Australia.

          • Australia’s internet is special, I often forget its different to the internet outside of Australia.

            Everything is special here! That’s why FttP is 4 times more expensive than the RotW!!

          • Four times eh? FTTP brownfields CPP is $4,400, that means the RotW is about $1,100 CPP, even Chorus NZ has only got it down to $3,367 CPP in 2015, what you might call yet another example of FTTN haters ‘cooking the figures’ their way.

          • Four times eh? FTTP brownfields CPP is $4,400

            And Verizon does it for $695. I win!! ;o)

          • But if you going to talk about the world FTTP cost which is what you said you take a average including Australia, not cherry pick one USA private telco with a cherry pick rollout to their own customers and use a FTTP build quote in US dollars.

            Good try anyway (but not really).

          • you take a average including Australia

            Silly boy, you don’t average in what you are comparing against, try again ;o)

          • Blah, blah, blah alain.

            FttDp yes or no…?

            I await you getting the ok/memo to answer me or disappearing.

            You’re welcome.

  2. They may well be trying to move to FTTdp. At the Commsday tech for management dummies summit they seemed to a trying hard to portray FTTdp as a form of FTTN.

  3. Cannot get to Budde’s blog, seems to be active but timing out. Too much support or DOS attack?
    Has someone set their army of infrared people counters to ping Budde’s site?

      • Still not working for me, will try an alternate internet connection.

        OK, can get to it via mobile but not fixed line.

          • I am sure the company wouldn’t be happy with me changing our VPNs DNS :)
            I could probably get around any problems by going through a proxy site, but I am at work and don’t really have the time, I’ll read it fully at home.

  4. Is it better for the tech and wider community keep pushing for FTTP, with the hope of settling for FTTDP, or pushing for FTTDP and ending up with more substandard nodes? This was a question posed on Whirlpool and I’m inclined to agree with it.

    • Personally, I think FTTdp is a happy medium between the two plans. Its clear that the Liberals wont go for FttP, just as its clear Labor cannot settle for FttN. For no other reason than politics, which is what they have turned this into.

      FTTdp is that point between the two plans where both sides get what they want. Labor wants speed to last a generation, Liberals want savings, and FTTdp delivers both.

      Push for FTTdp, because right now its the political tool neither can say no too for much longer.

      FTTdp has a clear and simple upgrade path to FttP as well, which can be put onto the end user as its not extravagant like FttN’s upgrade is.

      • “just as its clear Labor cannot settle for FttN. For no other reason than politics, which is what they have turned this into.”

        To be fair Labor did consult a panel of experts which produced a rather extensive review and found FttN wasn’t feasible in Australian context given the time frames and basically what would be our late start into that tech (as well as not owning infrastructure already).

        Basically all the issues that MTM are having now etc.

        • Truth. More pointing out that neither party will adopt the others plan. So we either go back and forth, or settle somewhere in the middle, and FTTdp is that happy point in the middle that serves both sides well.

          ‘We told you so’ feels good, but it aint gonna get us FttP under a Liberal Govt, and Labor wont be seen to stick with FttP when this alternative is cheaper and quicker to roll out.

          If you note the story on bashing Labor about no NBN policy (oh how ironic), its clear that the Lib’s have adopted FTTdp as a core part of their plans, so its just a matter of timing before its official.

          I figure some time around 4 weeks from now, or possibly somehow snuck into the budget.

  5. IMO, FTTP is the best option – period.

    But FttDp is obviously a much better option than FttN.

    In other words, if we are going to continue to pay huge dollars for a dumbed down network instead of doing it properly, let’s dumb it down a little (FttDp) not completely (FttN).

    Heaven forbid, we may even get a bi-partisan approach and not waste $B’s on further political bastardry.

    • Maybe they could shift more of the FTTdp costs to OPEX and onto the end user like they did to make the FTTN CAPEX lower.
      They could put the micro node in the pit when they cut the premises across from ADSL to FTTdp and the FTTdp CAPEX would exclude those node costs. After all it’s not really the cheapest all up solution they are after, but the lowest headline figure.

  6. Coalition clowns vandalised the NBN so a return to the 93% FttP roll out is most likely not possible but while FttDp is closer to the correct FttP end goal than FttN I don’t see why it needs explicit support so I’ll still endorse a plan that is a majority FttP build.

      • I don’t think that is in dispute. It’s one of the reasons why I am skeptical the coalition clowns would allow GimpCo to switch FttN fully to FttDp. They want to make it as hard as possible for people to get FttP not make it easier.

  7. Fttdp is a better alternative to fttn , by a long shot. I support such a move, but fttp should also be ramped up and hopefully in time, it can overtake the fttdp.

    • “Fttdp is a better alternative to fttn”

      But as you say, only so long as FTTdp offers an easy upgrade to FTTP. Maybe even a serious FoD option.

      Otherwise it’s just another dead end.

  8. I think the lesser of two humiliations for Turnbull is to keep going forward with FTTN and that is what he will do. he does not want to be both a laughing stock AND to admit he was wrong all at once.
    So no, no amount of public pressure will make him change his mind.

    • Turnbull is absolutely certain that he will be well and truly retired on his Parliamentary pension before the voting public catch up to how badly he has cheated them.

      Personally, I think it will be a close run thing.

      • He’s sitting on $200m of his own $ I don’t think he’s overly worried about pensions its all about being PM!

    • “It’s still ADSL and the conversion happens at the pit so will go down when it rains just like ADSL and HFC.”

      Please… please… PLEASE stop saying it is ADSL, it isn’t. It completely undermines any argument you try to make, by claiming that FTTB/FTTN/FTTdp or any of the other FTTX systems that use copper as a portion, are ADSL.

      Sure, FTTN COULD use an ADSL DSLAM in the node, and then yes, it would be ADSL. BUT, they aren’t. Thus, even though I think using FTTN is a stupid idea, it still isn’t ADSL.

  9. FTTdp would still require power, would this be powered from the external electrical network or from each premises?

    • What Jeff said. The power reqs of FTTdp are shown to be a minute trickle that can be supplied back down the line-in from the property. The difference with the nodes of FttN v FTTdp is supplying the power to something fridge sized versus brick sized.

      The FTTdp node ends up becoming a personal issue, and part of that connection. But its cents a week, or less. It aint much anyway.

      • The FTTdp node ends up becoming a personal issue, and part of that connection. But its cents a week, or less. It aint much anyway.

        Interesting you should bring this up GongGav, I was just having a discussion with someone about this last week. Remember one of the nitpicks against FttP from the copper fanboy knuckle draggers was power and batteries so it’ll be interesting to see if they apply the same logic and complaints against FttDp. Customers will not only be expected to power equipment but equipment not even in their homes in this scenario.

        • At the end of the day, were better off using whatever the lowest power option is, as even if it’s a powered node that nbn™ pay the bills for, it’ll all get charged back one way or another anyway.

        • Yeah, I’m waiting for it as well. I’m basically expecting those that complain to have absolutely no idea what the true cost to power it will be.

          I dont remember the exact amount myself to be fair, just that it was an irrelevant amount.

          I’ll just point out that they are already paying for basically the same thing with their existing phone line. Thats the straight up comparison I keep coming back to – FTTdp is pretty much the existing landline service, only with fibre to the pit instead of copper.

          Everything else has a pretty decent analog.

        • Kind of my issue. Does it mean you must have your router turned on 100% of the day? what if one place turns it off will the dp node still function. If the power’s cycling every time someone turns modem on/off etc how will that spike on the line (aka mini power surge etc) affect things (ie will it reset the dP equipment dropping and reconnecting everyone).

          “I’ll just point out that they are already paying for basically the same thing with their existing phone line. ”

          how so? NBN plans aren’t any cheaper than the existing one I’m on. If you’re going to say its a cup of coffee a month and therefore insignificant, that could well mean the difference between one plan or a higher speed one.

          • As I said, I cant remember the specific cost, but even a cup of coffee would be well over the cost. I’ll try to find out though if I can, but similar services already in play use 48v, which aint much. Mentioned elsewhere here with power over ethernet.

            It just doesnt cost much to power something so small (somewhere between a thick novel, and a brick in size) 100% of the time.

          • It’s about 5-7 watts plus AC conversion losses for the PoUTP adapter, it’s bugger all really.

        • Simon:

          A/ Im not sure why you would turn your router off?

          B/ each port on the micro-node is only powered by the the modem connected to it (discrete electronics) and has no impact on the other ports in the micronode. eg Turning off 3 out of 4 routers would not impact the 4th service at all.

    • Which also removes the blocker on power companies providing approval and access to electricity which we’re seeing now.

      • There is no ‘blocker’, maybe a delay as power company crews catchup to FTTN cabinet installations, it’s not all they do and power cuts would be the priority.

        • Yes, there isn’t a blocker. But there is a delay, that FTTdp wouldn’t have to deal with. That was the point.

          Once again, reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit and you’re diverting with unrelated comments like “power cuts would be the priority” as if power companies have only one team that handles both power cuts and connecting premises.

        • BS there are still multiple trial nodes here in Victoria that cant be used because the power company wont connect them to the grid due to their location!

          • Remember in the FTTN trial one they only got 1 powered out if 10 lol you would have though they would have learnt from that.

          • Date of report 2/6/2014, it is now April 2016, FTTN has 120,000 premises RFS at a average rate of 8,000/week, with the company on track to meet the full year RFS footprint target of 500,000 FTTN premises.

            Stop dragging up reports from the past where ONE trial site in Epping had a delay on the power supply while the NBN Co negotiated with the power company, that has no relevance to the FTTN rollout today, at least you moved on a bit from 2013.

          • Lol devoid invalid comment detour signs and contradictions ahead.

            FTTN has only 30K connecting in February not 120k as the rest which you admit is FTTB. So it’s ok 2k a week not 8K. But then it’s still slower than FTTP running at 10k or above lol. Lol faster is the new slower, sky isn’t blue, yes is no lol.

            The leaks point to delays getting power to the nodes which they new has issues with during the trials 2 years ago but that it still a problem.

            So apparently the power issues in the trial has no relevance to the power issues plaguing the FTTN rollout now. That’s a good one lol. Will have to use that one against you later on lol.

          • Welcome to alain’s contradiction corner…Yay

            “Date of report June 2014, it is now April 2016..” says alain about something he disagrees with and therefore ridicules for being so OUTdated (as clearly stated)…

            Yet his “smoking gun” to suggest FttP failed, is an article (even since retracted) from Renai some 8 months previous – in Oct 2013…? ROFL.

            You’re welcome

  10. Paul Foord – FTTdp would be reverse powered from the premises. I saw an infographic recently (can’t remember where) that showed a power injector (48v probably, like power over ethernet) as part of the premises equipment.

    Whilst we all want FTTP, FTTdp is a reasonable stopgap measure, and still leaves the way open for much cheaper FTTP upgrades in the future.

  11. Switching to FttDP is still a no-brainer, even for Malcolm. If he doesn’t, his whole mantra of backing a “technologically agnostic” MtM goes down the toilet.

    • After all this time, would anyone think less of Malcolm than they do already if he were to embrace FTTdp?

      He could sell it to the masses as new technology and the dividend for holding out against FTTN. He could even suggest he invented it.

      • RichardU
        He could sell it to the masses as new technology and the dividend for holding out against FTTN. He could even suggest he invented it.
        And that’s exactly what the shit head will do ,you wait and see.

  12. FTTdp is still slower and more expensive to rollout than FTTN or replacing HFC, a key point as to why both sides of politics are skirting around any sort of firm commitment that it will be a replacement for either of those infrastructures anytime soon.

    • Poor Baldrick, only focusing on one tiny tiny short term item as usual because your tiny little mind can’t comprehend concepts like TCO and ROI.

      • Tell me all about it then genius, see if you can do it without cooking the figures or creating a total fantasy of your own making (this will be good).

          • Poor Baldrick, still can’t grasp the concept of more revenue plus lower opex easily comes out in front of slightly lower capex in only a couple years according to nbn’s own numbers.

            Oh but they aren’t officially approved so Baldrick can’t accept them, poor Baldrick! Worse part for you poor Baldrick is that skinny fibre makes these numbers overly conservative!

            https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/ej3frvwjk4wclfi/images/5-b0f0fb81b7.jpg
            https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/ej3frvwjk4wclfi/images/5-b0f0fb81b7.jpg

          • It gives even better, you use that out of date Draft internal NBN Co document which was written for the sole purpose of creating hypothetical costing scenarios if the Optus HFC and only the Optus HFC required overbuild.

            Of course you know that, but what the heck eh? it has FTTdp mentioned in it, near enough is good enough.

          • Yep the usual predictable response from Baldrick, if anything the FTTdp numbers are way too conservative as skinny fibre has brought the cost down even more.

            Poor Baldrick, still on the wrong side I of history!

          • Keep rummaging through the bins outside the NBN Co, anything will do, even the lunch orders.

            lol

          • Keep rummaging through the bins outside the NBN Co, anything will do, even the lunch orders.

            Like you did for the coffee machine receipts?

            lol

          • I like Baldrick… Please stop insulting him by associating him with Reality.

            +1

            Was thinking the same thing :o)

          • Ok I’ll go back to calling him Devoid then, I might call Matthew “Percy” for a bit longer tho. :-D

        • By even the NBN’s “official” figures, the long term OPEX cost of FTTN greatly outweighs the short term CAPEX saving.

          IF the “unofficial” NBN figures are correct, that difference becomes even greater.

          Stupid and Short sighted. The sort of thing that looks good on paper but in reality adds no benefit.

          • Yeah Woolfe, what “long term FTTN OPEX figures”??

            Everyone knows FttN has zero OPEX thanks to the powa of copper!!1

          • Oh it’s a another Woolfe apologist to fill the void with meaningless waffle.

            You can’t deny copper powa!!!1 The copper is strong in this one!

    • @ alain,

      So let’s get this straight, like FTTP (which you also claim is slower and more expensive than FTTN) which is why you are a very vocal FTTN supporter… you also reject FttDp.

      Got it…

      Thank you.

    • You know this how? They’ve done no significant trials yet, which is what they are doing now, so, until such time as they actually finish those trials, there wont be any way to know that it is slower to rollout.

      Sure, its more expensive in CAPEX, and less expensive in OPEX while providing a better solution for the future.

      If CAPEX + OPEX are the same, lower CAPEX for FTTN but higher OPEX, higher CAPEX for FTTdp but lower OPEX, then the only thing is timeframe, which considering the delays with FTTN already because of getting power to the nodes….. Not having to worry about that with FTTdp would mean any time difference in rollout speed would be negligible.

      • R0ninX3ph,

        You know this how?

        We don’t have to guess by creating fantasy scenarios.

        NBN CFO Stephen Rue said the company had looked at the total cost of moving to FttDP, which he said included capital and operating expenditure as well as revenue delayed due to extended rollout time, but said the technology would bump up peak funding requirements and result in the company missing its 2020 targets.

        http://www.zdnet.com/article/fttdp-becoming-better-option-than-fttn-but-premature-for-entire-nbn-morrow/

          • Oh it’s the ever reliable Rizz the builders gap filler, with his box of Detour signs.

          • It’s the ever reliable devoid putting up detour signs as he cant handle the facts lol

          • “Oh it’s the ever reliable Rizz the builders gap filler, with his box of Detour signs.”

            How the fuck was that a “detour”? He directly replied to your implication that FTTdp would delay the project out past 2020, by saying that the project is already likely delayed out past 2020…. What the fuck goes on in your brain, seriously?

          • Still carrying a chip on your shoulder about the FOXTEL blunder I see, the project is ‘not already delayed beyond 2020’, there you go making it all up again.

          • “Still carrying a chip on your shoulder about the FOXTEL blunder I see, the project is ‘not already delayed beyond 2020’, there you go making it all up again.”

            I see you fail with reading comprehension I see.

            I admitted that I was wrong about Foxtel, but alright, you can bring that up on a completely unrelated point, its fine, only makes you look more childish.

            Also, I never made the claim it was delayed, I was explaining what someone else said because you seem to be completely unable to read and comprehend what others write.

            But even if it is delayed, you’d just call that another “revision” which is perfectly okay for the LNP to do, but the world was ending when Labor did it. Why? Because you’re a LNP Shill and don’t actually care about the country or the project, and only care about parroting the current party line.

        • “NBN CFO Stephen Rue said the company had looked at the total cost of moving to FttDP”

          Using those draft figures that you deride above for others talking about? Kay….

          • So…… They have secret figures they aren’t releasing to the public?

            If they aren’t using the leaked figures, they have other figures which they aren’t releasing, so much for transparency….

            If they have such strong secret figures we don’t know about, why are they doing a 300,000 property trial for FTTdp? If their numbers are so rock solid, why on earth would they waste so much time and money doing a trial to so many premises?

          • Oh look the political ventriloquist’s dummy alain, is here detracting from the conversation with his warped style of contradictory stupidity…

            Hi alain.

            Tell us “again” what Mitch says, while Mitch is drinking a glass of water.

            You’re welcome

          • Rizz, I legitimately don’t understand how he hasnt been banned yet….

            Above, he brought up my mistake (which I admitted) about Foxtel, just to attack me on a completely unrelated comment thread, on a completely unrelated article.

            I don’t usually condone banning people because suppressing opinion usually results in further discontent, but his posts are contradictory to his own “opinion” that he states.

            Apparently FTTP had been rolling out since 2007 (6 years for 50k properties) right? And yet just yesterday, he says FTTP commercially released in 2010-11 and thus wasn’t rolling out for 6 years, because he uses the line FTTN was commercially released last September thus has only been “rolling out” for 6 months.

            First he compares Apples and Oranges, and now he suddenly compares Apples with Apples? The hypocrisy is infuriating.

          • Baldrick (aka alain, aka reality) is 100% pure troll, I cant understand why Renai tolerates him either – surely the ad revenue cant be worth pissing off your paid subscribers and genuine industry members!

          • I don’t even both trying to correspond rationally with him the irrational, anymore. He’s not willing to accept anything other than his ideology, regardless of facts.

            I just take what he says today and then what he said yesterday (which inevitably contradict – to fall in line with his politics) and then ask how it can be?

            … and he disappears… because there isn’t a rational answer.

            Unless of course, immovable, perpetual ideological subservience is somehow considered rational?

          • I legitimately don’t understand how he hasnt been banned yet…

            I legitimately don’t understand why you would want him banned. Provides much entertainment and will provide an archive of idiocy for all to laugh at in the future. Some quotes from 2013 and earlier already providing laughs needed “Before roads there were no roads”

          • If their numbers are so rock solid, why on earth would they waste so much time and money doing a trial to so many premises?

            Bingo. Considering they only just finished a smaller scale trial of it, obviously even nbn™ thinks it has merit to be used much more widely.

          • R0ninX3ph,

            So…… They have secret figures they aren’t releasing to the public?

            If they aren’t using the leaked figures, they have other figures which they aren’t releasing, so much for transparency….

            The only leaked figures referring to FTTdP are used in a hypothetical Optus HFC overbuild scenario in conjunction with other Optus HFC overbuild options, if that is what is required!, no mention beyond the date of the leak that any Optus HFC partial or otherwise overbuild scenario will need to be used.

            To take that Draft (Draft as in subject to change) hypothesis figure as being the FTTdP CPP for any type of FTTdp build up to a total replacement for FTTN in 2016-2017 or whenever in the future if it does happen Coalition NBN or Labor is pure speculation.

          • To take that Draft (Draft as in subject to change) hypothesis figure as being the FTTdP CPP for any type of FTTdp build up to a total replacement for FTTN in 2016-2017 or whenever in the future if it does happen Coalition NBN or Labor is pure speculation.

            And yet nbn™ themselves plan their own widespread rollout for FttDP in Sydney and Melbourne. I guess the figures aren’t so hypothetic if they are going to “trial” 300,000+ ;o)

          • Which of course has nothing to with wild speculation and plucking FTTdp CPP figures out of the air.

          • Which of course has nothing to with wild speculation and plucking FTTdp CPP figures out of the air.

            Exactly, there is no speculation about it, they are actually doing it. Thank you for agreeing for a change ;o)

          • So alain,

            Let’s recap.

            Alain said previously…

            FTTN is FRAUDBAND

            FttP cant help but be a success

            HFC is FAILED

            Alain then said

            FttN is great

            FTTP will fail like FAILED HFC

            The lucrative HFC.

            You’re welcome

          • “To take that Draft (Draft as in subject to change) hypothesis figure as being the FTTdP CPP for any type of FTTdp build up to a total replacement for FTTN in 2016-2017 or whenever in the future if it does happen Coalition NBN or Labor is pure speculation.”

            Of course, using the figures stated for the hypothetical overbuild as the only figures we have on hand, a nation-wide rollout would naturally come at a much LOWER rate using economies of scale, so using the hypothetical figures is a worst-case scenario and your point as always is invalid.

          • Thanks HC,

            But I’m simply supplying the undeniable

            He has never tried to deny because he and we, all know he said these things and (unlike the bloke who could have written this shitty MTM) he also knows full well Mr Google will humiliate him eve more, as Mr Google did Mr MTM, if he were to try.

            So the disappearing act it is…

    • Devoid with just 30k in 7 months I don’t think anything can be slower than FTTN atm.

      Or should we start that from the election becuase he did say they where ready to rollout day 1

  13. Given many people have bought digital TVs that are larger than their basic needs, I suspect many would be prepared to pay to fibre the distance from the pit to their home if only for resale value. Then they would have the choice to dig up their garden a major propaganda problem at the moment.

    They should be given, and would welcome, the opportunity.

    • most of the digging is on council verges, I’ve as yet to see in a FttP area anyone’s lawn or garden dug up to get the fibre installed. (several mates live in and around a black spot that was mostly done with FttP …. except the actual black spot lol).

  14. FTTP first,
    FTTdp Second,

    Ultimately FTTdp allows us to move forward without the insane waste that is FTTN.

    “Apparently” the big cost of FTTP is getting into the premise. I’d love to see a breakdown on those costs.

    At least with FTTdp they remove that element, but leave it open for those who are happy to pay.

  15. Wow, are you people serious? Did everyone take a #@&*ing blue pill while I wasn’t looking?

    Let’s all just take a step back for a second. You’re all talking about FTTdp as though there is a very real liklihood that it will be approved as the default infrastructure option by Malcolm. Renai thinks this is likely, Paul Budde seems to agree, and you’re all weighing in as though it isn’t some sort of chemically induced shared mass fantastical delusion.

    But we didn’t get here, to a place where the FTTP NBN was sabotaged and the majority replaced with FTTN and HFC because those were better options, we didn’t even get here because they were either faster to deliver or cheaper – they were only ever faster and cheaper if you give Malcolm a free pass on fabrication, misdirection and flat out lies, not to mention undermining the possibility of any factual evidence being presented by stacking his basis for that evidence with personal, political and quite obviously corrupt appointments. Back in 2013 it was clear from, you know, facts, that FTTN was never going to be delivered cheaper than FTTP in Australia, and Malcolm had no evidence to justify it (and still doesn’t).

    So you can only consider that Malcolm and the LNP would approve FTTdp if FTTN and HFC were chosen for prudent project management and fiscal reasons. But the facts simply are that those weren’t the reasons for the changes, because the MTM flies in the face of facts. It is and always has been a fiction that those were the justifications for the MTM.

    So, given that, what were the motivating reasons behind the MTM and scrapping the majority of FTTP? Obviously propping up Telstra as they had the most to gain, and it’s very likely that Murdoch threw his weight around in there somewhere, too, given how Liberal party factions are merely political arms of corporations. Murdoch would have wanted the NBN to be killed, rich Telstra shareholders would have wanted an advantageous turnaround, preferably a firesale buyout. Turnbull’s plan delivers precisely those benefits.

    So would a FTTdp NBN continue to deliver Turnbull’s strategy? At this point, to a large extent, because the past three years have been all about entrenching the NBN’s MTM approach, so any change at this point will necessarily have extremely limited scope or impact. Substantial long term contracts will have been signed with onerous penalties for breaking guarantees, contracts that will not be made public until or unless a new government seeks to do so (and I bet they’ll be challenged in court for breaches of Commercial in confidence clauses, NDAs and privacy).

    But there would still be a risk with FTTdp if it was rolled out in any more than a token amount that it could still do substantial damage – best to leave it until it has been sold to Telstra, then they can role out FTTP or FTTdp and trap the benefits for a relatively small outlay.

    So Malcolm will wax lyrical about technology agnosticism and wanting to give people the fastest possible infrastructure, but nothing comes for free, they’re taking the most prudent and responsible approach, contracts had been signed and guarantees given to hundreds of Australian small business operators with NBN construction contracts and unlike Labor he wasn’t going to go back on his word… Yada Yada Yada. Blah blah blah. Besides, they were already doing FTTdp (insert token FTTdp examples here), so they are doing it wherever prudent, where it was the best product for that deployment area.

    Starting to sound familiar?

    So let’s get back to reality, shall we people? The NBN under Prime Minister Malcolm ‘Political Vandal’ Turnbull will drop FTTN and HFC in favour for FTTdp over his cold, lifeless corpse, and not a moment sooner.

    And if you think Labor will be able to turn things around you have another think coming – they will be wrapped up in legal argument for years to unravel the contracts Malcolm set up. The only way they’re getting a free pass to scrap the MTM is if a Royal Commission finds Malcolm and his band of cronies were criminally corrupt in their conduct, which 1) I can’t see ever happening in this country, and 2) will take three to five years – do you really want construction halted until that all gets ironed out?

    No, Malcolm royally #@&£ed us, but he was always going to, and it’s why the last election was so crucial, why Labor seriously dropped the ball and why this country is populated by uneducated, judgemental, short sighted bigots. Australia is getting what it deserved. May a future filled with hardship and poverty the likes of which this country hasn’t seen for eighty years be a lesson into why you shouldn’t allow the media, its owners and a group of narrow minded deceitful politicians provide you with your extremely limited lack of understanding about the political process and those who seek to govern you. Malcolm may be a corrupt, dishonest sociopath, but it was the Australian public that gave him and his party the power to destroy our nation.

      • No, the tl;dr version is:
        The MTM changes weren’t made to the NBN for fiscal or faster delivery reasons – that was how they were sold to the public, but the facts have never stood up to even casual scrutiny. So what makes you people think a beneficial change like FTTdp will be chosen because it makes sense? FTTP made sense, the MTM has no rational, realistic or factual supporting arguments, yet here we are. Look at the real reasons (the ones where facts and evidence make rational sense) the MTM was implemented and work out if FTTdp fits in that model (hint: it doesn’t).

        Brief enough for you? ;-)

        • I like my version better :o)

          I think the reason most folks here see FttDP as being a viable alternative is because it’s almost as cheap as FttN (with vastly cheaper on going costs), and almost as good as FttP

          Malcolm has put on a pretty good show for the general public so far, but given the above (cheap and better), if he doesn’t back it, he’ll blow his “technologically agnostic” cover with “the voter”.

          • I disagree. FTTdp is a technical solution. People aren’t technical, so they don’t know anything about the topic. Malcolm and Morrow (M&M) can talk a bunch of confusing sounding BS about prudent decisions given existing cost constraints, the failing business model created by an irresponsible Labor government, the unalterable contracts already in place providing certainty to thousands of NBN contractors and their families, blah blah blah. Remember, right-leaning voters don’t need M&M to come up with a convincing argument to change their minds, they just need a semi-plausible sounding argument to allow them to dismiss alternatives out of hand. People fundamentally *want* to maintain their preexisting worldview, all Malcolm has to come up with is a reasonable excuse (no matter how factually baseless).

          • And all Labor need to do is state the facts, that the CPP for FttDP is pretty well the same as FttN, but 10 times better (in every category that counts).

            People aren’t technical, so they don’t know anything about the topic.

            And Australians aren’t mugs, they can smell a dodgy salesman a mile off. That why Malcolm is diving in the polls, we know he’s on the nose…

          • And just so we’re clear, I’m not saying the LPA will use FttDP, I’m just pointing out they can take the NBN off the “fuck up” table of issues if they do decide to go with it. And Malcolm seriously needs to start getting things off that table if he wants any hope of winning an election.

            Hell, it’s pretty obvious even Morrow/nbn™ themselves think they should be heading that way, if Malcolm doesn’t decide to use it he’ll look like an even bigger idiot.

          • Mal wont allow a move to FTTdp because it actually proves he was wrong to push FTTN.

            That’s kinda my point Derek. If he doesn’t start showing things have changed (in this and many other policies) he’ll be screwed come election time.

            Personally, I hope he doesn’t change course on any of it, and they get smashed at the election. Dunno about everyone else, but I’m fed up with the LPA’s “born to rule, not govern” mindset.

          • Same here tin, I hope the right wingers force another shocker of a budget and they get smashed!

    • Yes, the MTM fucked everything up. Now its a matter of getting back to as good as we can get with the disaster Australia is now stuck with.

      That is all.

    • You’re all talking about FTTdp as though there is a very real liklihood that it will be approved as the default infrastructure option by Malcolm. Renai thinks this is likely, Paul Budde seems to agree, and you’re all weighing in as though it isn’t some sort of chemically induced shared mass fantastical delusion.

      Hope you’re not including me in this group. I’ve already said a few times that I am skeptical the coalition clowns would allow GimpCo to fully switch FttN to FttDp. We still don’t know what Labors policy will be but ultimately I would still endorse a majority FttP build for the fixed line footprint just as I always have. Labor may also include FttDp in there because they are forced to due to coalition clowns destructive policy over the last three years. It’s also true FttDp is an unnecessary sloppy intermediate step to the correct FttP end goal but at the very least it has a more viable upgrade path unlike FttN. Acknowledging this basic fact is not an endorsement of the technology.

      • No, it related to everyone endorsing it as a reasonable path forward for the LNP NBN.

        As an infrastructure choice, if FTTdp had been chosen by the LNP instead of both FTTN and HFC all of this would be an entirely different argument. Particularly with a FoD option for a thousand dollar lead in. In reality, FTTdp wasn’t chosen by the original NBN because at a full scale rollout the last 20m into the premises would have a very substantially reduced cost over one-off FoD. Do it once, do it right. The additional cost wasn’t particularly relevant anyway due to the funding model.

        But the article wasn’t about the technical merits of FTTdp it was about Paul Budde’s endorsement of FTTdp and his indication that he thought it would be the way forward for both parties, and asked whether readers agreed.

        My point is that pretending that the LNP are going to take a reasonable direction in this is extremely dangerous. And it’s not supported by evidence. In fact, it flies in the face if it. Was the last election not a good enough example of this? How many times did Renai shout at the sky about Malcolm’s ‘guaranteed’ 25mbps minimum by 2016? How many times did he shut down discussion of those pointing out the LNP’s track record of dishonesty and their BS fictional numbers in their policy document demonstrated that their FTTN was a failed and unworkable deception? We’ve had 2.5 years of LNP destruction coupled with disingenuous spindoctoring, corrupt appointments and flat denials of facts when presented with their own frigging documents. And now we have people saying ‘it’s OK, it won’t matter which way you vote, they’re both going to deliver the same result anyway’, leading up to the election? Are you £@#&ing kidding me?

        No, it won’t be OK. The NBN under the LNP is a pointless waste of tens of billions of dollars. Hell, the way they’re managing the economy they might even run out of funds to finish it anyway (and don’t talk to me about investment funding, that only works if it remains a revenue generating asset. It is becoming clear even in mainstream media that that music has already stopped, the LNP are just refusing to accept it and figure they can keep on playing as long as they don’t stop dancing).

        While we’re proposing desired outcomes, the only way the NBN will work is if all HFC and FTTN contracts (probably just every contract signed under the LNP and new management board) are null and void because they’re illegal – they were entered into in bad faith by criminals engaged in corrupt misappropriation of vast taxpayer funds. Return the NBN to full FTTP to get economies of scale ramped up and negotiate acquisition of TPG’s FTTB network. This isn’t just necessary from a revenue perspective, but a reliability one – we need a wholesale network that is as reliable as possible, and the best way to achieve that is to build in robust management systems and redundancy, aspects comprehensively undermined by the MTM. And do a proper review of CVC charges, POIs and speed tier products.

        Sure, we could just change as much as possible to FTTdp from this point forward, but that won’t fix much of the damage, the reduction in performance and reliability, the broken business model and lack of achievable profit potential. Do I want FTTdp with an option for FoD? Hell yes. But my selfish short sightedness won’t fix problems that will continue to plague this country for generations if left unaltered.

        And the LNP are not your friends – they are not going to suddenly do the right and reasonable thing.

        None of which is directed at HC or the small number of rational people refusing to buy into this lunacy. But I see the same apologist arguments giving the LNP a free pass leading up to an election again, and all this banging my head against my desk is starting to hurt. I don’t give a £@#& what kind of ‘qualifiers’ people might want to put on it, and neither does Malcolm. There is no ‘grey area’ when it comes to an election. You either put a party into power or you don’t. If the LNP attain office again they’re not going to water down their approach, they’ll see it as endorsement and turn things up to 11. If they get control of both Houses the next three years will make these three seem like a socialist paradise in comparison.

        Arguing that the LNP will do FTTdp is naive and irresponsible reporting. Just like broadly endorsing their FTTN plan when you’re a journalist with no technical or economic qualifications. Not only should we not be playing along, accepting a technical possibility for a non-technical problem (because the MTM wasn’t a technical solution, it was a political one), we shouldn’t be endorsing or accepting this retrograde idiocy from journalists who should know better by now.

        • It’s quite simple, FTTdp is not ready yet for a full scale rollout to replace all targeted FTTN areas at present averaging 8,000 residences a week.

          A Labor or Coalition NBN Co 2016-2017 will need to have a serious think about what a FTTdp switch does to their peak funding and extending the completion date.

          • What do you mean, FTTdp is not yet ready? It’s mature, proven technology. It eliminates the necessity for both nodes and the electricity required to run them, it obviates the 18,000km of copper necessary for node to copper junction boxes, it vastly simplifies the rollout for the cost of running fibre a bit further (which itself is cheap and the process only gets expensive if the fibre can’t be readily pulled through).

            You’re right that the Minister and their Government will need to evaluate cost and time frame implications, but I think the end of that assessment, if there was full transparency, would demonstrate that FTTdp would work out both cheaper and faster to deploy. Because what they’d be delivering costs less, it is less complicated, has fewer components and doesn’t need the electrical utility company to come to the party.

            FTTdp is a superior technical solution – it is easier to upgrade, cheaper to run, an order of magnitude faster and more reliable, and more fiscally responsible. The question isn’t is it better, it’s whether it is politically palatable.

          • It’s quite simple, FTTdp is not ready yet for a full scale rollout to replace all targeted FTTN areas at present averaging 8,000 residences a week.

            There are 300,000+ reasons in Sydney and Melbourne that say you are wrong ;o)

          • “It’s quite simple…”

            Wow alain, coming from someone who asks questions and then when given clear answers with accompanying documentation (noooo not factual proof) then proceeds to argue over one word within that entire documentation to suit his ideological feculence, that’s PRICELESS…

            “Before roads there were no roads”

          • tinman,

            There are 300,000+ reasons in Sydney and Melbourne that say you are wrong ;o)

            Not happening until 2017, if it does happen post current small trial.

  16. I had lunch with a *very* senior multi-national telco engineering executive last month, and all I can say is “this whole conversation will be irrelevant” in about 18-24 months.
    I’m not waiting for the government to do anything for any of us… I’ll be dead long before then!

  17. Why should we settle for FTdp over FTTP ?
    The difference is the lead in cable between the pit in the footpath to the first point in the house which can be as little as 30 feet.
    Every time we change the mode of connection a loss occurs and the quality of the signal suffers.
    FTTP does not incur a loss whereas FTdp does.
    Who in their right mind would advocate that.
    Lets do it Once and do it Right.

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