Watch: Labor ‘fooling itself’ on NBN “copper” delays, claims Turnbull

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news Malcolm Turnbull yesterday accused the Opposition of ‘fooling itself’ with relation to significant delays revealed in the rollout of the Prime Minister’s preferred Fibre to the Node technology, in a fraught Question Time in which Labor pursued Turnbull relentlessly on the National Broadband Network issue.

However, the Prime Minister did not respond directly to documents leaked this week which show the NBN company’s FTTN rollout is significant behind target.

Over the weekend, the Sydney Morning Herald published an article about an internal NBN company document, entitled ‘Scale the Deployment Program: FTTx Design and Construction’. Delimiter yesterday published the document in question here in PDF format. It appears to have been authored by the NBN company’s chief network engineering officer Peter Ryan.

The document notes that the NBN company had at 19 February this year only successfully completed construction of its Fibre to the Node network to some 29,005 premises — far short of its target of 94,273 for that date. The report pins much of the delays on issues with electricity companies, which appear to be having problems getting power to the neighbourhood ‘nodes’ used in a FTTN rollout.

Labor’s previous near-universal Fibre to the Premises rollout for the NBN would not have suffered the same problems, as it does not rely on electrical power to neighbourhood ‘nodes’.

Yesterday in Question Time, the Opposition pursued Turnbull relentlessly on the issue. As Communications Minister, Turnbull initiated the FTTN rollout in the NBN.

Shadow Communications Minister Jason Clare asked Turnbull, amid other NBN questions: “Before the last election the Prime Minister promised to deliver the NBN to all Australians by the end of this year. However, internal documents leaked to The Sydney Morning Herald today reveal the Prime Minister’s second rate copper NBN is in crisis and has failed to meet even a third of its internal rollout target. Will the Prime Minister finally accept responsibility for the mess and the chaos he has done to the NBN?”

In response, Turnbull several times deferred questions to former Optus executive and Minister for Major Projects, Territories and Local Government Paul Fletcher, who regularly oversees NBN-related issues in the House of Representatives for Turnbull.

However, following a question from Opposition Leader Bill Shorten, Turnbull eventually did respond directly to the FTTN issue (video above).

“Does the Prime Minister take responsibility for the fact that his NBN is actually slow, expensive and late?” asked Shorten.

In response, Turnbull said Shorten could “fool himself” with respect to the NBN. “We are living in the real world, and the NBN is getting on with the job,” he said.

Turnbull said the Opposition lived in a “parallel universe” when it came to the NBN.

“The NBN publishes its rollout figures every week,” the Prime Minister said. “In the last week, for example, it was reported to 18 February that 26,524 additional premises were covered by the network. Of those, about 14,000 additional connections were made.”

“The NBN is rolling out, as I said earlier. We have activated serviceable premises 10 times greater than the number we inherited at the election. The fact is that the NBN under its new management is meeting its targets. It will have services available in one in four Australian premises by 30 June and it estimates that two years after that, in 2018, we will have services available in three out of four premises.”

Turnbull said the Coalition’s controversial Multi-Technology Mix model for the NBN would see the project finish six to eight years sooner and about $30 billion less in terms of costs.

“The Leader of the Opposition referred to copper, by which I assume he was referring to the fibre–to-the-node hybrid technology which is being used. The chief executive of the NBN, Mr Morrow, announced on 5 February that they had surveyed NBN users’ satisfaction for the various technologies and found that the satisfaction for customers using fibre to the premises and fibre to the nodes was at exactly the same level.”

“The facts speak for themselves. The Leader of the Opposition can fool himself. We are living in the real world, and the nbn is getting on with the job.”

However, at no stage during the responses by either Fletcher or Turnbull did the two Ministers respond directly to the leaked documents from the NBN company.

Opinion/analysis to follow.

82 COMMENTS

    • But he’s so charming and well educated when he throws mud and bullies people. I’m sure he’ll make a great Prime Minister… oh.

    • 14k new activations. A rate that exceeds Quigley’s NBNCo 4.5 yr total about every month.

      • Can we have the breakdown by service? Just to check what those activations mean from architectural decisions made by ALP and LNP.

        • It doesn’t matter. According to Richard, delays when you’re starting from scratch are proof of gross incompetence, but delays when you’re starting from a company with 4000 employees are proof that management are very capable and addressing problems.

        • Even if they did release the breakdown, Richard et al would simply ignore anyone bringing it up and start raving about something else.

          Whenever you bring up something they have no response to, they disappear for a few hours to reappear later commenting/replying to other things pretending like your response to them doesn’t exist, parroting the same crap they keep parroting.

      • Promised to all by 2016, now blown out to 2020…

        But no delay, err, look over there at the 14000, look, look. Says my dear friend.

        Shh Malcolm… don’t mention your fully costed $29.5B plan… err now up to (lol) $56B either… just repeat the past by plucking any number that sounds big enough say $30B, and suggest your mish-mash disgraceful MTM joke network will be that much cheaper (whilst always ignoring the B in cBa of course).

        Obviously the parrots will jump on board Mal’s every word, but the rational, with two eyes can see this and will accept it for what it is… absolute, complete and desperate lies.

      • nbn has been around for 7 years now, and yet they are still only rolling out at half the rate required. Plenty of Telcos around the world manage to roll out fixed line networks, including fibre networks, at double nbns rate.
        I’m not defending nbns performance under Labor, which clearly left a lot to be desired, but equally clearly they were in the process of addressing their issues, just as the current nbn management are addressing their issues with the FTTN rollout.
        Far from saving the project, switching midstream has introduced a whole host of new problems and set the rollout back years.

        • Indeed David.

          Also something always ignored by the MTM faithul, NBNCo was a start-up, I.e. the biggest construction in our history – “from scratch”. NBN™ are not a start up and have all of the advantages of the previous groundwork already laid out for them.

          But unlike the MTM faithful, who attacked FttP 24/7, everyone else here, nonetheless spoke of the FttP problems at the time. But according to the MTM faithful who attacked FttP 24/7, MTM problems simply don’t exist…

          But if they do (que?) it’s all, of course, Quigley’s fault.

        • “nbn has been around for 7 years now”

          To be fair, only the framework has been around that long. The Telstra deal wasn’t signed until the end of 2011, and the POIs weren’t even contracted to be built until several months into 2012.

          “Far from saving the project, switching midstream has introduced a whole host of new problems and set the rollout back years.”

          Without doubt…I still don’t understand how anyone could possibly believe that radically changing the whole design a year after the rollout began could in any way speed up the rollout.

      • So Richard numbers man what the rollout rate of FTTN to get 500k connected by July.

        But then is 14K a week is all we can eclectic Richard since ramping up doesnt exist

        • hmm, lets see… that would be about an average of about 26,000 per week. Assuming a linear ramp up from now to July, the number connected per week in late June will have to be over 38000.
          Tell ’em they’re dreaming.

          • Because they didn’t have to build a company from nothing, or build a transit network or anything, amirite? lolololololol

            Good one Black Kettle.

          • The ‘we had to build a company from startup’ excuse used by the FTTP cheer squad on long service leave has never been used by the previous Labor Government nor the current Labor Government as a reason as to why the FTTP rollout was pathetically slow.

            What was the reason again? oh here it is.

            NBN construction model failed, says Conroy

            https://delimiter.com.au/2013/10/15/nbn-construction-model-failed-says-conroy/

            Who is this Conroy guy? only the Minister in charge of the whole ‘failed’ model for six years.

            Perhaps that ‘startup company’ excuse is also the reason the wrong FTTB model was chosen eh?

          • You’re not good with reading comprehension are you?

            Yes, the rollout was slow (once the rollout actually began), however before that the company had to be built from the ground up and the transit network was being constructed.

            So, is it fair to consider the FTTN rollout as starting in September 2013 then? So, how many have the LNP connected to FTTN in the 2 1/2 years since the FTTN rollout started? Pretty abysmal rollout rate.

          • So, is it fair to consider the FTTN rollout as starting in September 2013 then?

            yeah it is fair because that’s when it started, and they have completed construction of 29,005 premises to FTTN in that five month period to the 19/2 (according to the leak).

            How does that compare to the Labor figure of FTTP to 50,000 premises after three years? – you work it out.

          • But of course alain, you typically aren’t being very honest (what’s new)…

            For some who will childishly argue in relation to the entire clear intent/gist of an article, over one word such as “might”… to conveniently and intentionally leave out half a sentence, is either disingenuous, dishonest, stupid or all of the previous…

            So let me finish that lovely bold line of your’s …

            NBN construction model failed..”due to the inability of the company’s partners to deliver on their commitments…”

            Got it now?

            I think that entire sentence (not your lovely little bit) pales into insignificance in comparison to those now rolling out FttN (some 10 years too late) referring to their own network, previously, as…

            “fraudband”…

            *Ouch*

            But who were these Coalition people screaming fraudband… only the then Minister for Comms Coonan, Deputy PM Vaile and others. Even Barnaby was calling for FttP and I bet they said – “is that an Optus”…!

            Funny though, just like our other ideologically illogical mouth here, you bag Conroy (as he does Quigley) and claim he knows nothing. But when you find something, even desperately edited completely out of context to try to help your lost and aimless crusade, you say look what Conroy said…

            I bet you can’t see the hypocrisy of this?

            Well of course you can’t being mired in hypocrisy 24/7…

            You’re welcome.

          • Rizz, (the 24/7 tag man interjects, thinks a fellow FTTP supporter needs his help)

            I see you let my post with the comparative rollout figures go through to the keeper without comment, understandably, and decided the best form of action is a ongoing personal attack (normal fallback for the FTTP cheer squad) and BS rhetoric about hypocrisy which doesn’t even apply.

            I just pasted the headline of the article which I didn’t write in the first place and the full link, everybody can read what the full article says, you want me to copy and paste the full article and because I didn’t you rabbit on with some smoke screen BS about hypocrisy because the rollout comparisons needs a urgent Rizz ‘change the subject quick’ detour sign.

          • “yeah it is fair because that’s when it started, and they have completed construction of 29,005 premises to FTTN in that five month period to the 19/2 (according to the leak).”

            Well, there is some delicious evidence of your inability to read.

            I said September 2013, aka, when the LNP took over the reins. AKA, 2 1/2 years ago.

            So, 29,005 premises over roughly 130 weeks. That’s 223 premises a week.

            Compared to 50,000 premises (and a transit network, and building a company from startup) over 208 weeks (4 years). That’s 240 premises a week.

          • @ alain,

            Thank you for admitting to your own complete dishonesty…

            “I just pasted the headline of the article…”

            Exactly and tried to pass of Conroy’s comments (again) incorrectly, exactly as I said.

            What about fraudband? That was factual unlike your lies…

            But of course now that you and your lies have been highlighted AGAIN, you go on the defensive…and talk thru to the keeper or detour or what ever other childish rubbiish you need to squirm…

            So now that you answer about, ooh, 30% of my questions… let’s keep the squirming rolling…

            Here’s some more you can try to deflect or just disappear from again… How about answering these comments of your’s and explaining how it can be?

            GO…

            Of course the (FttP) NBN will be successful, it’s a monopoly – which within a fortnight (and one would assume a rap across the knuckles) morphed completely to – FttP will fail just like the failed HFC networks did. To now you completely supporting the MTM reuse of those very same (failed – your words) HFC networks.

            Or what about the socialists monopolists are forcing you against your will onto FttP (or words very similar). But now, not a word about being forced onto MTM by the beloved?

            Or “Labor” (ooh) went to the last election with NBN promises but then revised everything. So they lied and NBNCo have mismanaged. To MTM now… 4 year blowouts (from 2016 to 2020) re: 25mbps – 50mbps for all Australians pre-election promise and as much as $27B blow out over the pre-election promised fully costed $29.5B plan, which are … wait for it, all completely acceptable, because the figures have been “revised”

            My fav is still… “Before roads there were no roads”! Wow, eh, how about that…

            You’re welcome.

          • Roninx3,

            So, 29,005 premises over roughly 130 weeks. That’s 223 premises a week.

            Five months is roughly 130 weeks is it?

          • “Five months is roughly 130 weeks is it?”

            You’re the one counting the Labor NBN from the moment of NBN Co’s inception, I am counting the LNP NBN from the moment NBN Co became theirs to control, September 2013, 2 1/2 years is roughly 130 weeks, yes.

          • Yes I know what you are trying to do because comparing a FTTN rollout from its commercial release in September last year with a Labor FTTP rollout that had its commercial release in 2010/11 and rollout figures up until 2013 is something the FTTP cheer squad want to desperately avoid.

      • So doubling the budget and time frames and not providing minimum speeds whilst also not providing an roi to pay for it is a good performance?

        On any metric the MTM is a disaster.

      • “Quigley’s NBNCo 4.5 yr total”

        Huh? Telstra wasn’t even signed off until Oct 18, 2011, and the first 10 POIs weren’t even contracted until March 22, 2012. How do you figure 4.5 years???
        Quigley was replaced a few months after the first POIs were contracted!
        That’s not comparing chalk and cheese, it’s oranges and galaxies.

        • Because apparently the time for FTTP begins the moment NBN Co began, but the timer for FTTN begins when they officially announced the FTTN product (well and truly after even the trials for FTTN).

          Because comparing Apples and Oranges is his bread and butter.

  1. Facts speak for themselves? Whilst ignoring the leaked documents filled with facts.. Classic fail..

    • Yes, the facts. $44.3bn Vs ‘up to’ $56bn. $0 coast to tax payers (OK, negative cost due to positive ROI) Vs $56bn + ongoing OPEX. 1000/400 Vs 86/32? Oh wait, you can’t guarantee minimum performance, like you would have been able to on FTTP.

      ‘Every premises in Australia connected at 25mbps by 2016’ Vs ‘three quarters of premises conected by 2018’… with no minimum performance guaranteed.

  2. Given the extremely small number of FTTN premises in service, what was the sample size used for that survey? Because the number of people talking openly about serious performance issues on FTTN is far, far greater than for FTTP (not that FTTP is perfect – there have been complaints, but also due to specific circumstances, not network design), yet the number of people on FTTP is an order of magnitude greater. Survey says: buh-boww!

    • “what was the sample size used for that survey? ”
      Very few. That’s the whole point.. They are way behind schedule..

    • Mostly FTTB connections got an ok rating. Doesn’t NBN have more FTTB connections than FTTN?
      FTTN got would be considered a bad score considering most people were happy with speeds faster than ADSL. Take the same survey again in 5-10 years and FTTN will be a total flop.

        • Not that you’d know from MTM as they don’t see a difference so those figures are bundled together … at least publicly!

        • Interesting the current FTTB connection model is a Coalition NBN policy decision, the Labor NBN Co stuffed up big time on FTTB, but let’s not go there.

          • Everyone here will happily admit Labor should have gone with FTTB for MDU’s. Literally everyone. Many people have openly stated it.

            We’re willing to admit Labors mistakes, but we don’t see NOT doing FTTN as a mistake like you do, you’re also not willing to see any mistakes by the LNP, because you’re a one-eyed right-wing hypocrite.

          • Actually there were a couple who disagreed, but the vast majority of the “Fttp Fanboys” agreed with FTTB. The short copper runs made it a feasible prospect, and the infrastructure could be easily configured so as to allow for future fibre upgrades. (As opposed to the current nodes that have been made in such a way that Fibre on Demand is essentially not an option at the moment)

            But your point about the differences between the FTTP Fanboys and the MTM fanboys holds true.

            Although FTTP Fanboys is incorrect really. “Best Technology for the future of the nation Fanboys” is way more appropriate. Because lets face it, if wireless or some other tech was a better choice(its not), we all would have been arguing for it.

          • R0ninX3ph,

            We’re willing to admit Labors mistakes,

            Only when touched with a cattle prod, if no one brings it up you certainly won’t, a lot like historical comparisons, you need to look at the MtM rollout in isolation, history is not kind to the Labor manged FTTP alternative.

            but we don’t see NOT doing FTTN as a mistake like you do, you’re also not willing to see any mistakes by the LNP,

            The only mistake the Coalition made is underestimating the timeline of the inertia of change on a infrastructure build the size of the NBN, I don’t see building a national fixed line BB infrastructure using existing infrastructure where possible as a mistake.

          • “I don’t see building a national fixed line BB infrastructure using existing infrastructure where possible as a mistake.”

            Sure, I agree with using existing infrastructure where possible. Which is why Scenario 4 is the best option for Australia.

            Do you want me to copy-paste my entire post about it again for you? The one where Scenario 4 is only $10Bn more using the CP16 figures to provide a vastly superior network and far more future proofed network?

          • At least we don’t intentionally lie and completely contradict ourselves as you do, regularly (or perpetually)…

            With alain classics, such as ….

            Of course the (FttP) NBN will be successful, it’s a monopoly – which within a fortnight (and one would assume a rap across the knuckles) morphed completely to – FttP will fail just like the failed HFC networks did. To now you completely supporting the MTM reuse of those very same (failed – your words) HFC networks.

            “golf clap*

            Or what about the socialists monopolists are forcing you against your will onto FttP (or words very similar). But now, not a word about being forced onto MTM by the beloved?

            Or “Labor” (ooh) went to the last election with NBN promises but then revised everything. So they lied and NBNCo have mismanaged. To MTM now… 4 year blowouts (from 2016 to 2020) re: 25mbps – 50mbps for all Australians pre-election promise and as much as $27B blow out over the pre-election promised fully costed $29.5B plan, which are … wait for it, all completely acceptable, because the figures have been “revised”

            Bravo…

            But still number one with a bullet…

            “Before roads there were no roads”!

            You’re welcome.

          • ” all completely acceptable, because the figures have been “revised””

            This is one of the funniest hypocritical points he has in his quiver of contradictions.

            It wasn’t okay for Labor to revise targets, but its perfectly fine for the LNP to revise targets. Why? Because REASONS.

          • I fully expect NBN targets to be revised, I fully expect whoever wins Government in 2016 that rollout and costing estimates will be revised through to 2019, it’s a National Infrastructure program.

            But can Labor pull a rabbit out of the hat and give residences targeted for HFC and FTTN but not yet connected a FTTP connection either in the same timeline or earlier from 2017/18 on?

            I bet they are having a long think about that one and end up deciding that keep it vague and keep up the negative MtM rhetoric increasing it to a frenzy (I think it is there already) as the election date looms is the best ‘political outcome’ they can hope for.

          • “I fully expect NBN targets to be revised, I fully expect whoever wins Government in 2016 that rollout and costing estimates will be revised through to 2019, it’s a National Infrastructure program.”

            So why, when Labor was in power, were revisions literally the devil and evidence of failure, but revisions now and in the future are perfectly fine and acceptable and now aren’t evidence of failure?

          • Because of the time scale, Labor had two terms of Government and failed, the Coalition has just over two years of NBN control, check where their at in 2019 for a same as comparison.

            Sound fair?

          • LOL…

            WTF has any of that idiocy got to do with revisions being ok on the one hand and not the other?

            So we can use that (ill)ogic and refer to how long JWH was PM?

            Unbelievable… just when we thought it couldn’t get any sillier alain pushes the boundaries of derp yet again…

            Before roads there were no roads is being challemged.

            Bravo

          • Yep thought so, sounds fair but you don’t like ‘fair’, time for another Rizz off topic meaningless boring rant.

          • Labor had two terms of Government and failed

            Failed how? They couldn’t get the legislation through for the NBN? They didn’t create NBNCo? They weren’t able to negotiate with Telstra? They build no FttP? They built no wireless? They built no satellites?

            About the only thing they actually did fail, was meeting the initial targets…and even those were heading back on track…unlike the LNP’s NBN version with seems to be heading in the opposite (and even worse) direction.

  3. Missing suburbs that should be getting fttn eg leederville and highgate in wa! Not on rollout schedule or to be serviced by other technologies! My local labor mp alannah mactirin is on it, but retiring soon.

    • Likely just means your beyond 3 year schedule. Even under Labor there were ‘missing’ burbs that were likely simply soon™.

  4. How interesting.

    Mister fucking Turnbull referred to the costings of 90 billion, which have been proven independently, by the opposition and the nbn itself to be patently false.

    I will enjoy watching him squirm, the lying sack of shit.

  5. Real world is when you are able to deliver as you told everyone when it will be delivered, Mr. Turnbull. If there was a delay, it shouldn’t be 4-7 years longer than expected and the cost blown out over 100%. I hope Real world to you would be the day when you get the sack!

  6. I thought Clare might stand up and announce what they were going to do about it.

    1. State that Labor are not going to use HFC and they will overbuild it with FTTP.

    2. State Labor will stop all FTTN rollouts immediately after gaining Government even if it means paying penalties for cancelled FTTN rollover contracts.

    3. Announce when active FTTN areas will be overbuilt with FTTP.

    4. Announce the timeline for all of this and the funding, and explain how the failed FTTP construction model of their time at having a go at building the NBN will be all fixed at their next attempt.

    At the moment Labor fervently hope the leaks keep coming so they don’t have announce anything.

    • What like the LNP did for years complaining about the NBN?

      Hey Kettle, you should stop calling that pot black.

      • What’s stopping Clare announcing at least the first three points now, it’s not policy it’s stating the broad direction they will be going, or is he just going to stand on the pile of leaks documents wearing a ‘Copper Sucks’ T shirt up until election day?

        • Nothing stopping him, but that is a question you should be asking him, not a post for a comments section on a website.

          Tell me though, why was it perfectly fine for the LNP to do that for years without saying anything of substance until their policy announcement in 2013? Oh, is it because you’re a hypocrite? Okay.

          I agree, Labor should announce their policy. But, as we saw pre-2013 election, announcing a policy means nothing. $29Bn for 25Mbit to all by the end of 2016, fully costed and ready to go.

          Even if they did announce it right this second, it wont make any lick of a difference to you, if Labor commit to sticking with the MTM, you will use it as evidence of the LNP being “right” and you will hate on anything not in support of the MTM. So what does it matter?

          • We knew well before their 2013 policy release way back in October 2011 that FTTN was core infrastructure to the coming Coalition MtM infrastructure model and policy release.

            Coalition NBN policy shifts to fibre to the node

            https://delimiter.com.au/2011/10/24/coalition-nbn-policy-shifts-to-fibre-to-the-node/

            I am not asking Labor to announce their 2016 NBN policy, just a general direction as I outlined above, if FTTN or HFC is so crap as Labor make out what’s the issue here?

          • I will repeat for emphasis:

            “if Labor commit to sticking with the MTM, you will use it as evidence of the LNP being “right” and you will hate on anything not in support of the MTM. So what does it matter?”

            They also “shifted” to supporting FTTN after losing the 2010 election where the NBN was a significant factor. Though, you claim above it didn’t mean anything.

            If it didn’t mean anything, then why did they go to the 2013 Election with a so called “$29Bn 25Mbit to all in 2016 fully costed ready to go” plan? Surely they could have said “No NBN” and it would have been fine.

          • Ah yes… “Coalition NBN policy shifts to fibre to the node”

            With the mandatory future/go back signs, how apt…lol

            All that’s missing is their mantra – “fraudband”.

            You’re welcome

    • 1, 2 and 3 all answered by Shorten and Clare (Clare announcement you have linked to on multiple occasions) and of course spelt out for you on Delimiter on a weekly basis for half a year now.

      4 not relevant.

  7. The chief executive of the NBN, Mr Morrow, announced on 5 February that they had surveyed NBN users’ satisfaction for the various technologies and found that the satisfaction for customers using fibre to the premises and fibre to the nodes was at exactly the same level.”

    Kind of disingenuous to suggest a company loyalty score (like NPS) applies to a monopoly provider to start with, but unless those people had actually used “the various technologies” then they can not make any meaningful comparison.

    These people should be selling used cars, or financial packages or something, they should not be in charge of Australia’s largest infrastructure project.

    • But according to FTTP supporters it’s just inconceivable the satisfaction level of a FTTN user and a FTTP user is the same, why isn’t FTTP much higher?

      • When you show me someone using FTTN who has used FTTP and rates it the same as FTTP, then maybe I would believe it.

        I have used both, and FTTP is infinitely better. Though, you’ll dismiss that as anecdotal or doesn’t count because I’m not an LNP supporter.

        • Doesn’t matter if I believe you or not, FTTP apparently is far superior than FTTN, you would expect FTTP users to be more satisfied irrespective of whether they have used FTTN or not.

          Perhaps you need to convince FTTP customers to stop buying FTTN like speed plans.

          • “you would expect FTTP users to be more satisfied irrespective of whether they have used FTTN or not.”
            Who said they aren’t?

      • But according to FTTP supporters it’s just inconceivable the satisfaction level of a FTTN user and a FTTP user is the same, why isn’t FTTP much higher?

        Because it’s a survey of the service for that technology, not a survey comparing the technologies.

        You do know how the NPS system works, don’t you? Or are you just commenting randomly again?

Comments are closed.