NBN a “financial disaster”, claims Andrew Bolt

259

news Conservative commentator Andrew Bolt has published a series of strongly worded blog posts over the past week arguing that the “gold-plated” National Broadband Network project is turning into the Federal Government’s “biggest financial disaster by far”.

Bolt — who is regularly critical of the Gillard Labor Government on a wide range of issues — has been a long-term critic of the NBN. For example, in October last year he published several posts on his popular blog heavily criticising the project — at the time referencing an article presenting some of the findings from an Economist Intelligence Unit report into global government investment in broadband, as well as another article by fellow commentator and telecommunications analyst Kevin Morgan, who has also been critical of the project.

Last week, following the Government’s release of NBN Co’s second corporate plan, Bolt went on an all-out attack on the project, publishing seven blog posts relating to the NBN, all heavily critical of the project. “This already looks like turning out to be the Government’s biggest financial disaster by far, which – after pink batts, the boats disaster and school halls – is an astonishing feat,” Bolt wrote in one post, referring to another Morgan article.

Referring to the 3.9 percent increase in capital expenditure costs revealed by the new NBN corporate plan last week, and the six month delay which the project has suffered (due primarily to the delay In negotiating NBN Co’s $11 billion contract with Telstra), Bolt wrote: “What’s a few extra billions to stupid taxpayers? What’s a few more delays? This is turning out as badly as predicted.” Bolt also published other blog posts with titles such as “The NBN white elephant just grew”, “I’d struggle to sell this NBN, too”, “The real gold-plating Labor should fret about” and “More gold needed to plate an NBN than a power grid”.

In his various blog posts, the commentator almost exclusively referenced material from fellow conservative commentators on News Limited sites such as economist Henry Ergas, telecommunications analyst Morgan, and Terry McCrann, as well as articles from the Financial Review, which has also been sharply critical of the NBN project over the past few months. Bolt’s blog is published by News Ltd’s The Herald Sun in Melbourne.

However, in his posts, Bolt did not refer to commentators who have been positive about the NBN, such as Business Spectator’s Stephen Bartholomeusz, who last week wrote that the NBN was “broadly on track” and that the delays and capex spending increase “will be almost immaterial by the end of the 10-year project”.

The news comes as Communications Minister Stephen Conroy last week delivered a fiery tirade against the media for constantly repeating misconceptions about Labor’s National Broadband Network project, singling out the Financial Review newspaper for particular ridicule and recommending that those interested in accuracy read broadband forum Whirlpool.

The Labor Senator opened a press conference held in Sydney last week to release the new corporate plan by speaking in detail about what he said were a series of “misconceptions” regularly repeated in the media with respect to the NBN. “You often think if Malcolm Turnbull put out a press release saying “Cost blowout in the NBN due to the Earth being flat”, it’d probably lead the front page of the Fin Review lately,” Conroy told the audience of journalists in attendance.

Over the past several years, there have been a number of misleading articles published by various local newspapers about the NBN. In December, the Australian Press Council expressed concern about the Daily Telegraph’s coverage of the Federal Government’s National Broadband Network project, backing a local critic’s complaint that three articles in a short period of time had contained “inaccurate or misleading assertions” about the NBN. Similarly, in March this year, another News Ltd publication, The Australian, published a correction to a story after it inaccurately alleged that a school in South Australia would have to pay $200,000 to connect to the NBN; in fact, the school will receive NBN access as part of the normal rollout. In addition, the Opposition has also made a number of inaccurate statements about the NBN over the past few years which have been picked up by various segments of the media.

opinion/analysis
In analysing Andrew Bolt’s flurry of NBN posts last week, several things are immediately evident.

In my opinion, Bolt has carefully chosen which articles he referred to last week in making his case that the NBN is a problem project for the Gillard Government. He generally picked only News Ltd articles where possible, and he only referenced articles which were sharply critical of Labor and the NBN, avoiding those that praised the project or were more moderate towards it — even if such articles were published by News Ltd publications.

Secondly, Bolt did not present an alternative to the Gillard Government’s NBN project. In his blog posts, he does not refer to the Coalition’s rival NBN policy, which shares many of the same features as the Government’s NBN project, including a focus on providing high-speed broadband to all Australians, separating Telstra’s operations and using satellite and wireless broadband to serve rural and regional Australia. These are bi-partisan broadband policies in general, but Bolt does not acknowledge this.

Lastly, it appears to the reader that Bolt did not read NBN Co’s corporate plan or listen in to the extensive press conference held by Communications Minister Stephen Conroy and NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley last week explaining it in detail. His blog posts only refer to other articles published by other journalists.

Now, I have an open mind and I often enjoy reading Andrew Bolt’s blog. For all that the commentator can sometimes cross the line, in my opinion he does often raise valid points which many more moderate commentators are afraid to go near. Bolt does have his specific point of view on things, and a definite slant to his writing — which is openly acknowledged. But overall he is courageous and a strong voice, and we need commentators like Andrew Bolt just as much as we need those who come from the left-wing side of the fence. I am a huge fan of media diversity and Bolt certainly brings a good deal of colour to the Australian media ecosystem.

However, I can’t help feeling that Bolt has missed the mark in his criticism of the NBN last week. I find it hard to take his point of view seriously when he does not address views opposing his to the NBN; does not consider the rival Coalition NBN policy, and does not appear to have himself read the core literature which NBN Co released last week. In addition, with the NBN project as a whole still projected to make a 7.1 percent return to the Government over its lifetime, it is hard to justify claims that the project is on track to be a “financial disaster”. If Bolt wants to make this claim, I’d like to see more evidence from him to make it. In general, I would like to see some in-depth analysis from Bolt in the area of telecommunications, but I’d like it to be more analytical and more in-depth.

Furthermore, if the Coalition does win the next Federal Election and has the chance to enact its own broadband policy, courageous thinking will be needed to help evolve the current NBN policy to the Coalition’s rival approach. At that stage, if commentators like Bolt don’t focus as much on a Coalition Government’s telecommunications policy as they have Labor’s, then I will be disappointed indeed. Because at this point, the two sides share much of the same core policy platforms. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.

259 COMMENTS

    • Being blind to contrary opinions is a great way to show intellectual capacity Zippy. You, and the author of this article, are just as bad as Bolt.

      At least Bolt is prepared to admit he is right wing while people such as yourselves cling to the false belief that you are from the middle with only a slight lean to the left. (Sort of being slightly pregnant).

      • That’s right, since we disagree with his opinions [note I watched a recent episode of his, noted the lies and *then* left – I gave him his chance], that must mean we are left wing stooges.

        Because it’s impossible to have a rational debate about a technical subject – not it’s simply down to which side of politics you can be pigeon-holed.

        For example, you’re quick to accuse the reporter of being blind… even though he reads Bolts work… too blind to read this article before rebutting it?

          • Bolt admits that he’s a conservative-and often. No secret there. He’s very comfortable with the label. Me likewise. Conservatives generally are sceptical of massive govt programs and monopolies. When taxes are low, government spending does not exceed rev intake and the private sector is allowed to compete in the free market, history shows that economies grow and prosperity ensues. This basic ideology is responsible for the greatest rise in the human condition in history. But hey, let’s get sexy with BB and our finances and emulate Europe.

          • Telstra was a monopoly.

            And the financial situation is Europe is due to many factors, them installing improved broadband services was not one of them.

          • It’s the “debt is good” rationale. The “nation building” nonsense. When we want something badly enough often we neglect the inconvenient facts. In this instance and at this time the NBN is an extravagance the country can ill-afford. I suspect many posters here would be in favour of this thing at $10 trillion and a tripling of the hospital waiting lists. Concentrate on the necessities, get the roads and schools fixed, productivity up and then start reaching for the sky.

          • I think you’d find if the NBN cost $10T then people here would be saying it’s way overpriced and not worth the cost, thankfully it’s not costing anything in the ballpark of that.

          • “When we want something badly enough often we neglect the inconvenient facts. ”

            Or in your case, any *facts* at all.

            I like you, and buy you a beer when you come around but don’t try to pretend you’ve got facts on your side when you’ve made it quite clear your opinion is ideological, not fact based.

          • Once again you have failed to address the points to which you respond. Instead you provide hyperbole.

            “It’s the “debt is good” rationale.”
            ^ Generalisation.
            Debt inherently is neither good nor bad. Good debt is debt that provides a greater return than the cost of funds. Bad debt is debt that doesn’t. I think we can agree, however, that of the two it was bad debt that was a problem for Europe.
            You are labelling a failure to control bad debt as ‘the “debt is good” rationale’, and thence inferring that all debt is bad. If you are not inferring this then your comment is pointless.
            Logically, if the NBN provides greater return than the cost of funding then the debt is good debt.
            Therefore if you wish to counter this point you must show that the business case is simply wrong.
            To do that you are going to need some facts, evidence, references.

            “The “nation building” nonsense.”
            ^ Generalisation.
            Logially if nation building is nonsense then nations should not be built.
            If nations are not built then by definition they stagnate.
            Exactly what is it that you think “nation building” means?

            “When we want something badly enough often we neglect the inconvenient facts.”
            ^ Generalisation.
            Not only is this a generalisation it is also not appliccable to the topic at hand. We actively seek the facts, study them, and provide them to you; ironically, it is you who insists on neglecting them. So what is it that you want so badly, eh?

            “In this instance and at this time the NBN is an extravagance the country can ill-afford.”
            ^ Simply wrong.
            Regardless of whether we define the NBN as extravagant, the country can afford the NBN as it is planned. Are you going to make me link a reference for this one?
            Firstly, in order for the NBN to fail this test you must show that it is bad debt.
            Secondly, by inference you are suggesting that economic times are tough and hence we can’t afford the NBN. In fact it is the best time for the government to be investing. If it does so wisely in such a way as to stimulate the economy.
            Conversely, it is when interest rates are high (such that extra economic stimulus would be harmful) that government fiscal policy should be conservative.

            “I suspect many posters here would be in favour of this thing at $10 trillion and a tripling of the hospital waiting lists.”
            ^ Absurd.
            At face value it’s simply not possible for Australia.
            Taken more … figuratively, if the NBN was not projected to be of greater benefit than it costs, you would be hard pressed to find any support for the project in the form it holds. If the project were to make a marginal loss (directly speaking) then the argument would focus more on the indirect benefits and the government would have to show that beyond reasonable doubt we are getting enough in return for this direct cost. You could find ‘many’ NBN supporters in this case.
            However, if the NBN required any more digits than it currently does to express it’s build price you would be unlikely to find ‘many’ supporters at all.

            “Concentrate on the necessities, get the roads and schools fixed, productivity up and then start reaching for the sky.”
            ^ Illogical.
            (Directly speaking) Roads are a net cost. Education is a net cost.
            The NBN is a means to increase productivity. (Sure, we can probably wait for a space program, though.)

            You are implying an opportunity cost where none exists:
            – Items that are a net cost will not provide a return.
            – Such items should not be financed with a loan.
            – Therefore you cannot reappropriate loaned funds toward projects that do not provide a return.
            – Therefore roads and schools are not an option.
            – The government is capable of acquiring more than one loan.
            – Therefore the NBN does not impinge upon the undertaking of any other project.

            If something doesn’t provide a sufficient return then you CANNOT use NBN loans to pay for it. If it does provide a sufficient return then it can be done along side of the NBN. Do you get it?

            Again, the only way this falls apart is if the NBN fails to make a return. For that to happen the business case has to fail.
            We are all eagerly awaiting your evidence to this effect. Trust me, none of us want to throw away money for no good reason.

            A very real opportunity cost, however, is whether we build the NBN, no NBN, or some other NBN. But this is a whole other can of worms and others have already linked you to research that shows some of the indirect benefits to which I am referring. These benefits are conservatively in the tens of billions and potentially much higher. The levels of ubiquity, conformity, and capacity of our telecommunications network have a linear relationship with any receivable indirect benefits.

          • WTF. Who the hell are you? No one responds to a blog reply with a full days work. You’re either Govt., NBN or someone desperate to finally beat Johnno from the US in FreakFu___rs Version.3.2. Look, Conroy desperately avoided proper scrutiny of the real business case for this because everyone knows it is flawed. Sure, argue your point that we must have this thing and Govt. should provide it but if the returns on Inv. were sufficient to warrant the exp and potential risk then the private sector would have leapt at it and not rejected it outright. Remember, this was Rudd/Conroy’s non preferred 2nd option cobbled together in haste when their plan embarrassingly headed south. It allowed Labor to once again provide to the State control of telecommunications. If you believe the claims of 7% ROI then good for you. If you think we must have it then OK. If you think Govt. should commit that amount of our money then well and good. If you think Labor can arrange the build of this thing on time and on budget then you are seriously on another planet. I don’t need it for my business or family and neither does anyone we know. What I do know and it should be bleeding obvious to everybody by now is that this Govt is blessed with the reverse Midas touch and entrusting them with this sort of behemoth is idiocy in the extreme. Normally an “I told you so” in 5-10 years is reward enough for logical thinking people, but in this instance it is gift wrapped with multiples of tens of billions of dollars we’ll all be responsible for on top of the hundreds of billions of Labor debt. If you sleep well at night with all your reports and expert calculations then I’m glad for you, but I don’t. All the manipulative reports in the world cannot replace the gift of gut instinct.

          • “Who the hell are you?”
            I’m an IT Consultant. Working for a small company that is making use of cloud technology for its infrastructure, and would benefit from the NBN by being able to reduce costs, better service clients and be able to expand faster.
            And there are thousands of other companys out there like ours.

            “No one responds to a blog reply with a full days work.”
            It wasn’t particulary fun getting up this morning, and tomorrow won’t be either.

            “You’re either Govt., NBN or someone desperate”
            Nope. How’s that gut instinct working out? *

            “to finally beat Johnno from the US in FreakFu___rs Version.3.2.”
            I’ll have to admit you’ve lost me here. Are you supposed to Johnno from the US? Or are you calling me a freak for participating in the debate that both of us are participating in?

            “Look, ”
            Frankly the rest of this is your much vaunted gut instinct (refer here *).

            Except for this bit:
            “if the returns on Inv. were sufficient to warrant the exp and potential risk then the private sector would have leapt at it”
            Expected return is 7%. You’ve shown that you remember this much.
            This return is too low for private enterprise.
            And the payback timeframe is too long for private enterprise.
            This is why private enterprise didn’t leap at it.
            Do you even know the rate of return Telstra expected in their Fttn proposal?
            The expected retail prices?
            Or the conditions that came along with it?

          • To make money you have spend money ( and money available to governments is so cheap at the moment it’s practically interest-free)
            Said it before and I’ll say it again – when the NBN is done and dusted it will be sold to the private sector. So you could argue that the NBN is nation building with a profit…

          • “Bolt admits that he’s a conservative-and often. No secret there. He’s very comfortable with the label.”

            He’s a conservative, and a reporter? Okay. But does he ensure that he:

            “9 Do[es] not allow personal beliefs or commitments to undermineaccuracy, fairness and independence. Where relevant, disclose.” – http://www.gwb.com.au/99a/ethics.html

            From what I’ve seen, he does not.

          • I’m a Bolt fan and there’s no doubt he’s thinking from a consevative perspective. You’d be hard pressed to find someone commenting on politics without bias. I’ve been watching David Speers forever and to this day do not know his voting pref – maybe also Chris Uhlmann but just about all the others are Labor operatives. Bolt can work 24/7 to counter the BS but he’s pushing it uphill for the most part. I think he’s an old fashioned gentleman, an absolute patriot and a blessing for our country.

          • “You’d be hard pressed to find someone commenting on politics without bias.”

            Therefore we should embrace bias, forget facts and say whatever makes us feel good?

            That is not journalism, yet somehow you’ve still managed to come out of this thinking he’s someone that should be respected.

            Please remember, this is an area for fact based discussion, not ideological.

          • “When taxes are low. . .” they are, lower than under Libs.

            “government spending does not exceed rev intake and the private sector is allowed to compete in the free market, history shows that economies grow and prosperity ensues.”
            Govt spending rather lower than under Howard. Whether govt is in surplus or deficit depends on economic conditions. Great period of post WWII growth was all done with Budgets in deficit, until Gough Whitlam put Budget in surplus. Snowy Mts Scheme and Sydney Harbor Bridge built on borrowed money and rightly so.

            Why we need the NBN: http://www.polanimal.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2001&p=57751#p55910

  1. This government simply hasn’t got the capabilities nor business acumen to deliver this massive infrastructure project.
    At the end of the day, many billions will be wasted thru blatant mismanagement and some benefits will go to all the Labor mates riding the tax payers funded gravvy train.

    • The project can always be better managed, but so far it hasnt been. Its been well suited for its task, NBN Co has done a fantastic job of planning and constructing the Network.

      Im not surprised by the delay with Telstra, I doubt they even knew where most of their own nodes / rims were – given that the last time the network was measured was probably some many years ago.

      Given the current capital investment is under the original claimed price, this project cant be anything BUT on track.

    • The government has social knowledge to understand the human benefits the NBN will bring, it appears to have a reasonable business case (7% profit), and have done a good job politically in dealing with the many parties and issues involved.

      All this so one day the “Liberal” party can privatize it and give all the money to the rich.

      • You and your mates will be rich one day if you vote Liberal. But keep doing it otherwise they just get us back even before Labor destroy the finances again. This time it’s a monumental task on account of the children in charge but by the time you’re 40 we’ll be back on track.

          • Yes, about that missing post. It did contain a certain questioning of ones independence in a very clever way but was generally pleasant. With hindsight I’d have posted two identical opinions but switched from a certain CEO to a much maligned commentator AB to guage the relative equality. Is there anything off limits when it comes to vilifying Bolt? I think it’s all covered here.

          • Does everything need to be spelled out…?

            The topic is Bolt…. we are here to speak about him and if need be (as is clearly the case here) ridicule him and his bullshit accordingly.

            FYI – Stephen Conroy and Malcolm Turnbull have both, also been ridiculed here for their takes on filtering and FttN. So the only person currently bogged down in the politics of this is your good self, jugganaut.

            Thing is, this is an evidence based forum and you have supported Bolt (wrongfully) as being trustworthy… totally disproved by Annoying Old Fart and PeterA who have supplied URLs demonstrating Bolt to be anything but, in a legal sense, not here-say.

            Now you can accept the facts, learn and move on, or you can keep spreading lies by defending Bolt and strangely deriding a PM from 40 years ago…LOL.

            In closing, the comments policy is here to deter childish, stupidity in relation to comments aimed at other posters, not the topic or person(s) involved in the topic.

            Being so, childish, stupid comments are deleted.

          • Politics have no place in a fact-based forum. Just like facts have no place in politics.

          • Indeed but rational politics…

            Just WTF your bigoted hatred of a PM from 40 years ago and saying you need a bath to get the Labor slime off (seriously), have to do with rational and logical (even including the politics) discussion?

            My god when I get on on years (as you have indicated you are) I certainly hope I am not as bitter and one eyed.

          • The CEO of said NBN has been hired by Govt. at many millions of our $ to presumably see Govt. policy succeed or appear to be. As we are unable to question any of this here my opinion is that the process and personalities involved are absolutely wonderful. Very honorable people doing great things for Aus. We should all pass around the hat and see if we can’t raise some more $m for these splendid individuals. Forget the past and focus on the future. Hey, turn that darn light off.

          • “The CEO of said NBN has been hired by Govt. at many millions of our $ to presumably see Govt. policy succeed or appear to be. As we are unable to question any of this here my opinion is that the process and personalities involved are absolutely wonderful. Very honorable people doing great things for Aus. We should all pass around the hat and see if we can’t raise some more $m for these splendid individuals.”

            Actually, I think this is a splendid idea, let’s all pull out $5 each and give it to Mr Quigley!

            Because, you are completely aware that Mr Quigley came out of retirement for this project, and donated his salary to charity? The more we raise, the more kids we save from cancer or something.

          • Yes, there was some sort of international investigation that petered out. Any other popular company CEOs here or just the one that makes our computer a frag faster.

          • He wasn’t “cleared” because he was never under investigation. That’s another lie perpetrated by the likes of Bolt.

  2. Isnt this the same moron who claimed that lasers are technologically superior to the NBN?

    Either way i have no respect for people who talk without proper expertise of the subject.

    • What Michael said. Was Alan Jones, completely ignoring the section of the original article that refered to using fiber optic lines…

      For the uninitiated, the laser idea isnt a change in transmission medium (ie the fibre), but a change in transmission method (at the exchange).

      Its proof that FTTH is the proper model, as it shows there is a distinct upgrade path that FttH can follow, as opposed to FttN which is still limited by the physical characteristics of the copper loop at the end.

      As for Andrew Bolt, well, a FUDster is a FUDster. And yes, I’ve tried to give him a fair go, but like others have been permanently put off by his incapability to be non-political or accepting of the other side of the argument.

      Like always, its disappointing to see an infrastructure rollout that helps our country for decades to come become a petty fight over for dollars and cents.

  3. Can anyone name a journalist/media figure who is as far left in their reporting and biasses as Andrew Bolt is to the right wing of Politics. Furthromore what about the likes of Hadley, Jones, Laws etal who are of a similar vein to Bolt? I agree that strong voices from each side are required but where is Bolt’s counterpart, his balance?

    There is a highly skewed slant to all the major media outlets in this country and way too many voters take what they hear from these ultra conservatives as truth without much question. This bias of mainstream media will have a negaitve effect on the future of the NBN as well as other political reforms.

    • How about virtually anyone that appears on Insiders? Just remember that, just because you agree with their position, doesn’t mean that they are not to the extreme left. It just confirms where your leanings are.

      • You can only be trolling. Insiders still gives a voice to Akerman; there’s nobody even remotely that bonkers from the left on that show, and certainly nobody who backs Labor to the hilt.

        • We’ll know the Left are confident in their message when Insiders is equally represented by Left/Conservative. Therefore stacking the panel with group-think Leftists will persist indefinitely and the good folk keep paying to be fed childish rubbish. Bolt just says what everybody with a brain is thinking. Hence the immense popularity with the mainsteam and utter disdain from the Left. There is often a need for an adult to be in attendance when difficult challenges present.

          • “Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts”
            Bernard M. Baruch

          • ” Bolt just says what everybody with a brain is thinking.”

            Bolt says. You believe. That’s not quite the same thing.

      • If you think most journalists on ‘Insiders’ are on the extreme left, you are living in a bubble.

      • well, funny about that, Bolt used to be a regular on Insiders until:

        He moved to Channel 10 (the thinking persons channel…) for buckets of cash and to consolidate their race to the bottom…

        He probably tired of being regularly exposed as a rascist, bigoted, mysoginistic, lying baffoon…

    • I would put Philip Adams or even Mungo McCallum on the leftish side of the fence, though they rarely seem to get into a complete frothing lather.

      Renai is leftish as well with his penchant for facts, which we all know have a left wing bias.

    • Ross Gittins
      David Marr
      Annabel Crabb
      Laura Tingle
      Mike Carlton
      Elizabeth Farrelly
      Peter Hartcher
      Phil Coorey

      Would you like a few more?

      • All those people frequently criticise the left.

        I’m really tired of this ongoing effort to conjure up some sort of marauding leftist army.

        • The point is that there are as many left leaning journalists as there are right.

          Just because you happen to agree with a journalist, doesn’t make them neutral. It makes your political persuasions the same as theirs.

          The great thing about Australia is we are a democratic nation. The citizens will have their say in about 12 months. I suspect that what happened to John Howard after he rammed Work Choices unannounced down peoples throats will be the fate of our current PM.

          Just one voter’s opinion of course.

          • So Gillard was wrong to swallow the pride, in essence admit she was wrong and primarily adopt the Coalition’s plan then?

          • There is somewhat of a pattern emerging unfortunately Alex. Thank f_ _ _ for DR NO, but even he couldn’t save hundreds drowning. God knows he tried over the screams of Labor and the gallery. It is disturbing that one in three still support this current rabble. What else has to happen to change their thinking? An NBN catastrophe maybe? This is gonna take your breath away

          • Gillard?…. Wrong?….. Not Possible. Hell, she’s proven herself to be such a success that I think we should hand her $50 billion to build a new BB network. Who’s in?

          • “Just because you happen to agree with a journalist, doesn’t make them neutral. It makes your political persuasions the same as theirs.”

            So there’s no such things as facts, reality or objectivity?

          • That’s exactly the thing. Comparing a handful of one-note extremists (Bolt, Akerman et al) with Douglas’s list of people who actually make an effort to respond to all sides of politics simply doesn’t work. Comparing David Marr with, say, Gerard Henderson would be a far better way of making a point about bias.

          • “So there’s no such things as facts, reality or objectivity?”

            I’ve often wondered this myself. After close to a decade of journalism, I’m honestly not sure.

          • There is facts, reality & objectivity Renai. But unfortunately we Plebs are not allowed to touch it, use it, or know it because Big Brother tells us so. But smile, most of the time we figure it out anyway by extrapolation of the reality evidence that we see all around us. :{D

          • But when one journalist says 1 + 1 = 2 and another says 1 + 1 = 3, who should we believe?

            I say we should believe the former regardless of political leaning.

            Whereas it’s clear from the subservient blithering shown here today, some will always believe the Bolt’s and Jones’, to suit their politics and will even help argue that 1 + 1 = 3.

            Yes their great those “lasers” aren’t they?

            Baa..

        • “I’m really tired of this ongoing effort to conjure up some sort of marauding leftist army.”

          There is a very simple reason for that. They are looking for it because they need it. The ones that whine the most are usually from the extreme right. To them anything left is extreme left, even right of centre. So when someone who puts a view point across (even and objective view) they are immediately pounced on as a “left wing extremist” this is a compensation and pre-emptive measure as they are well aware of they criticism they get for their actual extremism. It’s a political version of the school yard “You’re a poopy face” “No. You are!” etc.

          • The terms in the US don’t mean exactly the same thing. Their politics tends to start from the right and go extremely right. Left would be the Liberals, Right would be the conservatives.

          • That was exactly my point from the extreme right even a moderate looks like a raving lefty.

          • Sounds a lot like Australia today. Anything not ultra right-wing is to be accosted, attacked, vilified and destroyed with horrible, horrible names and insults like “Communist”, “Lefty”, “Socialist”, “Idoit”, etc, etc. Oh Dear!
            Notice how they don’t use “Capitalist” which I openly proclaim is just as stupid and “Communism”. Myopic and fails to even consider reality in a “real” Universe of limited resources just like it’s antithetical opposite.
            I am at a point when I see “Left” vs “Right” and Insults without valid well thought out humane objectivity for all our biosphere (which we all depend on for survival), is a paid for Troll. Dare I call them Prostitutes? But at least a Hooker leaves people happy so we’ll leave them alone. :{)

    • Lets see without thinking too hard …
      1 “Red” Kerry, O Brien,
      2 Tony Jones,
      3 Barry Cassidy,
      4 David Marr,
      5 Phil Coorey
      6 Fran Kelly
      7 Virginia Trioli
      8 Laurie Oaks
      9 Annabel Crab
      10 Jonathon Holemes (or any presenter of Mediawatch)

      See that wasn’t hard

      • To be honest as one who isn’t a puppet to the politic, I am not overly familiar with a lot of these names.

        But regardless, like Bolt, how many of these journalists have had litigation/defamation cases and been hauled off to court for their dishonest reporting?

        Herein lies the problem. It doesn’t matter if they are left or right (to those of us again, not political puppets) as long as they are factual and don’t let their bias cloud their articles.

  4. With great fanfare it was announced in October last year that the NBN had reached Darwin and, to prove the point, a school in Darwin spoke to a school in Tasmania via the internet.

    Nearly a year later I am unable to get a date (other then within the next 5 years) as to when the NBN will be connected to my home. I am unaware of any other person that has been connected yet. That is the reality (which you seem to be blind to) and not the spin that you seem to accept as gospel.

    Your comparison of the NBN to the Liberal Party is misleading. The Liberal Party certainly have similar goals but at a much lower cost. That has been their point all along and you just don’t seem to get it.

    If you are going to criticise people like Andrew Bolt for being too far to the right, your arguments will have more currency if you show yourself to be at least a little bit to the middle. (I know it is hard for you but, just give it a go and as Julia Gillard once said “let the sun shine in”.

    • Peter, you don’t decide to build the Sydney Harbour Bridge one day, and drive across it the next day. It’s a massive project, and not everyone can be “first”. All of us would love to be on it tomorrow, but Australia is a big place, and you don’t just shove it in the ground and hope it works.

      I’m involved with (obviously) smaller projects every working day of my life, which employ project management techniques such as Prince3 and PMBoK, and even these small projects demonstrate to me the complexity of managing a project of the magnitude of the NBN.

      Wait for your bridge to come, like the rest of us.

    • Im in the same boat as you. Just because I’m not getting the NBN RIGHT NOW or ‘when I want to know’ doesnt mean the sky is going to fall in.

    • “Nearly a year later I am unable to get a date (other then within the next 5 years) as to when the NBN will be connected to my home. I am unaware of any other person that has been connected yet. That is the reality (which you seem to be blind to) and not the spin that you seem to accept as gospel.”

      The reality is the NBN is a ~10 year project.

      The reality is that the first few years are spent planning, passing legislation, signing contracts, building test sites etc. Then you need to ramp up the build rate – get people trained, in the field, and experienced. Find problems and solve them so on and so forth.

      This ‘reality’ has been well known for YEARS!

      Please explain where the spin is? Is it the idea that the NBNco should magically get everyone connected tomorrow? That the government shouldn’t be ensuring that the right contracts, legislation, regulatory systems, plans are in place before connecting people?

      “The Liberal Party certainly have similar goals but at a much lower cost. That has been their point all along and you just don’t seem to get it.”

      How can you claim much lower cost, or similar goals when they haven’t released a plan? Judging simple on what they say [albeit what they say is hard to pin down] they either want to spend tens of billions of taxpayers dollars subsiding the private sector to provide substandard services… or they want to ignore the issue and want everyone to go on mobile wireless.

    • “The Liberal Party certainly have similar goals but at a much lower cost”

      A goal that meets our broadband needs til almost 2020, and then needs to be thrown away and replaced with the FTTP that is rolling out now. That is the objection to the Coalition plan. It’s a huge waste of money on a very short term solution. A solution that may make it very expensive to ever get to the longer term one.

    • Your comparison of the NBN to the Liberal Party is misleading. The Liberal Party certainly have similar goals but at a much lower cost. That has been their point all along and you just don’t seem to get it.

      Where is the liberal party policy.
      I’ll even accept it without costings. (though an actual price would be nice, especially if you are going to claim it will be cheaper).
      I’ll even accept it without a timeline. (but that’d be good too).
      PLEASE I have been asking this for ages, please show me their policy.

      Pretty please? Because you seem to know what their policy is well enough to compare it to labors policy. I really want to be able to do this too!

      • Malcolm actually goes out of his way to avoid answering the question of costings. I’ve directly asked him dozens of times in the midst of several online debates what the cost will be, and not only has he never provided a cost, even ball park in nature, he hasn’t even the guts to say “I can’t tell you our costings”.

        This means either:

        (a) – he has no idea what the costings will be, so can’t tell us.
        (b) – the costings aren’t as he hoped, so won’t tell us.
        or (c) – he know’s that the cost of his plan plus any subsequent upgrade will cost more than the NBN now.

        I respect the man, but his willingness to just play politics rather than actually deliver a solution is just a joke.

    • What arrived in Darwin in October was the the NextGen fiber as part of the black spot project. This had two immediate effects it open Darwin up to the same ADSL pricing available in other capital cities as ISPs active exchange hardware, for business connection it is giving us some real competition for business grade services I’ve been trying to get a reasonably priced service faster than 2mb/2mb for years and can get one. As for the NBN work has begun I’ve personally seen work being carried out in Northlakes and Stuart Park from those who have spoken to the tech on the ground it is the prep work ahead of the drop build so it isn’t far off. NBNco do also have an office in Winnellie also.

  5. The key thing about the NBN is still leveling the playing field on technology between city and country, and cbd versus suburb. In the Chinese and Indian century governments just can’t rely on manufacturing (can’t compete on cost) or mining (which is finite). Technological innovation is the key, and how do you take advantage of that when half the nation is dialed out due to substandard infrastructure.
    This is the argument. If you debate on building cost and waste you’re probably always going to lose the argument. Big infrastructure or tech projects have always taken longer and cost more money. Witness NASA, or The Opera House.
    A more balanced albeit brief debate on the NBN was had on ‘Insiders’ yesterday.
    The message i took from that is that arguably the NBN rollout has been too slow and limited to save it from the expected 2013 change of government to The Coalition. I hope that’s wrong.

    • Most of the information I’ve seen so far points to the fact that its unlikely to be unravelled at any point after the election. The Telstra agreement being the most prominent, I’d expect that Telstra would only accept one option – the complete control, rollout and pricing over the network.

      Telstra itself has nothing to lose here but everything to gain. Given the Coalition would be going in well after the Spectrum Allocation, they would have exactly zero carrots to wave around. Telstra has no incentive to retake the existing copper USO or the NBN. Therefore, outside of Telstra recieving the NBN wholesale – theres no other option. So the LNP would basically turn a 400 pound Gorilla into a 800 pound Gorilla with a few pen strokes which would possibly see the annihilation of Vodafone, Optus and iiNet / TPG – purely because Telstra would then have the whole fixed-line communications, the best 3G network AND all the customer base.

      At one point I remember a conversation some 18 months ago, before our Vodafone issues – Optus / Singtel executives discussing with our Network Engineers (I was still a junior on work experience) their possibility of leaving the fixed-line market for Telstra completely. We raised the issues against them that Optus leaving the market with no competitor against telstra could give them untold control and cause incredible damage to the market. Optus to this day, still view fixed-line as a burden on their company – which is the current towed line. This is the consequent reason why Optus dont do Telstra Wholesale, despite the demand being there within the market. The margins are so low, that they make minimalistic amounts for the required service deployment.

      The LNP giving control of the NBN to Telstra would only seek to cement the exisiting monopoly for the future, totally outside the governments control – Ala AT&T circa split in the US.

      • Anyone familiar with the goings on within Optus would say that they are heading more and more towards being a mobile only player. They stopped investing in their ULL footprint years ago.

        • Which shows why so called previous competition was a joke and a new NBN owner with many RSP’s, vastly more beneficial for all Aussie consumers, Douglas.

          Can’t have it both ways (althoughNBN critics always do) ;-)

        • Thats most of the reason I mentioned it Douglas.

          Optus are unlikely to continue doing anything about fixed-line. I had a meeting on friday with the leading engineer for fixed. He’s quite convinced they’re not going to do Telstra Wholesale anytime soon. Why the LNP would believe Optus has ANY intention of extending their footprint is laughable.

          • I think you’re getting confused, Optus no longer use Telstra DSLAMs for residential based services and haven’t for quite a while.

            They do however use Telstra Wholesale for residential services (Optus DSLAMs still use Telstra Wholesale for the ULL), and are continuing to rollout DSLAMs and use Telstra last mile services where required for business services.

          • As I said, yes, they do.

            All Optus (and iiNet, and TPG, etc) DSLAMs utilise Telstra Wholesale ULL. Optus do however no longer provision residential services on Telstra DSLAMs, they do however provision business services on them.

            And I might be going out a limb here, but you’ve clearly stated you work for Vodafone, the agreement between Vodafone and Optus is purely in the mobile area. Suppose what you’re saying is true and you’ve somehow managed to hear this from a reliable source, what you’re talking about wouldn’t be public knowledge. Don’t you consider it to be highly unethical to post this information (ie. the network plans of an opposing company) in a public forum?

          • Not necessarily. I dont ever post specifics about what I do on site, nor do I disclose information that can pertain to job’s inner workings in any serious detail; only generalisations.

            I am however quite happy to answer anything thats certainly ‘non-specific’. Obviously as you can imagine, we do spend alot of time with the Engineers from Optus (as well as Huawei, NSN, Ericsson, Telstra)- we speak about all sorts of things. Interestingly the majority are Delimiter readers, for me – I can post things that both form our General Opinion. We tend to get a bit like a big family since we spend almost 60 hours a week in the same vicinity.

            Certainly any details I get that would be considered ‘comercially sensitive’ I wouldnt disclose, unless to one of the other engineers or our respective project managers. What I do state, is not of a sensitive nature and wouldnt be against my NDA. If I can help anyone understand the space we’re in and help people see what life is like beyond those fencelines, then I’d like to try – even if i do have to be a little vague.

            I do post … occasionally on whirlpool as well, gives me a chance to spot certain issues that customers have which can in turn help me identify network issues.

          • That’s not correct Master T.
            Optus Wholesale provision new TW L2IG services every day.

  6. LOL. Andrew Dolt. It’s understandable why he’s so bitter about the NBN. His obsessive behavior could be classed as a mental illness however since he’s really just a whiny right-wing nutjob that panders to all the wrong people I think it’s safe to ignore everything he says when it comes to the NBN. The fact that he’s getting his information from Kevin Morgan doesn’t really help his case either. Another one notorious for ignoring reality and substituting it with their skewed version of it.

    • Its easy to tolerate Bolt after you realise that he is simply styled on Stephen Colbert but pretending to not be a satirist.

      Alot of the time he writes things without conviction simply to tow the Right Wing line

      He has a market that he panders to and writes accordingly so I just take anything he writes and put Satire under that big OPINION on his pieces and have a good old laugh that people can believe such drivel

    • +10E6. Bolt is an ignorant muckraker, aspiring demagogue, and professional liar. Unfortunately he can write. Even more unfortunate that Renai should give him “air” time (and an overused, inaccurate, silly headline).

      BTW guys, it”s “TOE the line”.

    • Hi Hube. You sound like an OKish person but your post was cut midway before any of the facts and details were mentioned. Insults hit the target when the insulter knows their stuff otherwise the insulter just appears half cocked and youthful. Please repost complete version and convince me why Bolta shouldn’t be regarded the most trusted name in journalism.

      • You’re looking more and more like a troll with every post, but I’ll bite this time. How about this:
        “Bolt was wrong. Spectacularly wrong. ”
        http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/in-black-and-white-andrew-bolt-trifled-with-the-facts-20110928-1kxba.html

        No fine there, just a public apology (which was pretty weak IIRC).

        Or how about this:
        “In 2002, Magistrate Jelena Popovic was awarded $246,000 damages for defamation”
        “The Court of Appeal … upheld the defamation finding, describing Bolt’s conduct as “at worst, dishonest and misleading and at best, grossly careless”.[16]
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Bolt#Defamation_case

        • Hi OF. Thanks for the reply but I’m not sure what a troll is. Doesn’t sound nice though. I googled Bolt this morning and came across the article above and clicked on it to see who was the latest to attack the guy for his beliefs. It was actually a surprise to find the article was quite fair and reasonable. I just wanted to say something, that’s all. I generally comment on stories once a month on average (time constrained) but read them all. But I don’t even know what this site is. I know if my politics slanted left I’d be feeling more at home but everyone has a right to their opinion. Keep banging away you good thing for many, many more decades and stay young.

          • hi juggernaut. If you really dont know what a troll is, I suggest you stay away from commenting on just about any website. Its a derogatory term for someone that just makes a controversial statement in the hope of generated a response. Over time, its taken on a life of its own so its not intended as an attack on a person, but on their motives.

            Unfortunately for you, the way you come across DOES appear to simply be to get a rise out of various people, whether you intend that or not. Hence the suggestion of being a troll.

            If you are stating your genuine beliefs, best of luck to you. As you say, you’re entitled to them, whether we agree or not. I dont agree for the record, but respect your choice.

            If you do stick around to comment, just remember that this is a fact based site, so people WILL quote numbers and the like to back up their arguments. Usually with links backing them up. But not always – often its a repeat of something linked 50 times before.

      • “Hi Hube. You sound like an OKish person but your post was cut midway before any of the facts and details were mentioned. Insults hit the target when the insulter knows their stuff otherwise the insulter just appears half cocked and youthful. Please repost complete version and convince me why Bolta shouldn’t be regarded the most trusted name in journalism.”

        Interesting challenge. Let’s look at what he says [remembering that I have little real knowledge of Bolt previous to this news article, and therefor have no real opinion of the man]. Ignoring non-NBN claims…

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZPMCWIOkbQ

        “Is that the best use of ‘taxpayers money” – Not taxpayers money [albiet both sides make this mistake].

        “In fact here’s so little thought went into its decision” – No mention of Implementation Study.

        “I don’t know why we are spending billions on wires to people houses when most people want wireless” – How about because wireless needs fixed line infrastructure to work? How about the huge cost, performance and reliability issues of mobile wireless? Why did he throw this comment out there if he wasn’t going to do any research?

        “Cost Taxpayers an additional $3Bn” – Again, doesn’t cost taxpayers anything. The required government funding only increased by $1.5Bn IIRC.

        “6 Months Behind, $3Bn more” – fails to explain why.

        “How many have taken up NBNco’s fiber service? Few than four thousand. That’s after three years and more than $7Bn Dollars!” – Ignores the planning, legislation, contracts, telstra deal & structural separation, trial sites, ACCC etc. Also ignores non-fiber customers. Furthermore, NBNco hasn’t spent $7Bn [that’s at the END of this financial year – when its got ~700,000 passed, ~92,000 connected].

        Then Kevin Morgan comes on, spread a whole lot of BS and Bolt doesn’t bring him up on it. That said, it’s an interview so I won’t blame him for being mislead by his guests [though he could of picked someone more ‘independent’, or done fact checking – you know, like a journo].

        The big things I notice is the lack of real research on part of Mr Bolt – it’s all the omissions that take away his credibility. He finds a couple things that he knows he can spin into a lovely yarn, and leaves it at that. Good entertainment if you like his politics, but certainly not ‘journalism’ let alone ‘most trusted name in journalism’.

        • Supplemental: Recommended revised MEAA -Code of Ethics

          (http://www.gwb.com.au/99a/ethics.html)

          “1 Report and interpret honestly, striving for accuracy, fairness and disclosure of all essential facts. Do not suppressrelevant available facts, nor give distorting emphasis.”

          Failed.

          “2 Make efforts to give the subject of any damaging report an opportunity to comment, preferably in that same report.”

          Failed.

          “3 Urge the fair correction of errors.”

          Be interesting to see if does this, doubt it but could be wrong.

          This is why he’s not a journo – because he doesn’t do the basics.

        • “most trusted name in journalism”-should read “most trusted name in journalism to lie as a matter of course”

          I don’t think you can even regard what he says as satire; there has to be an element of truth, or a nod to the truth and the facts. Dolt studiously avoids all contact with either the truth or the facts, just like Liealot and Liars Party barrackers.

          juggernaut, the nbn is public infrastructure, like roads, schools, hospitals etc. It’s one of the things we expect governments to provide.

          • Commies.
            Commies everywhere.

            I’m concerned by your intimate knowledge of the communist manifesto.

            Oh forget it. I’m going to bed.
            Renai please delete this and the equally pointless post above.

      • “You sound like an OKish person but your post was cut midway before any of the facts and details were mentioned”

        You must have been reading Andrew Bolt’s blog? Not sure how you made the mistake of thinking my comment was anything like his mouth drippings.

        “Insults hit the target when the insulter knows their stuff otherwise the insulter just appears half cocked and youthful.”

        Oh noes, seems I hit the target :-( Go cry on Bolts blog instead. You’ll get no sympathy or apologies from me.

        “Please repost complete version and convince me why Bolta shouldn’t be regarded the most trusted name in journalism.”

        I’ve got a better idea. Since your claim is he is the “most trusted name in journalism” how about you prove he is.

        • 3 million page impressions per month and increasing and numerous media demands. And this big long discussion and others.

          Hey, The bloke agrees with you all that this NBN is the duck’s guts. For the tens or hundreds of billions it would want to be. That is only one side of the issue and we all agree the NBN is unrivalled in its ability to deliver HSB. But, and it’s not immaterial to the debate, does anyone here understand what a billion dollars actually is? Anyone care? We pay to build it, we pay the interest, we pay to operate it and then we pay to use it at a monopoly price. We are talking about some seriously large amounts of the folding stuff here and for what? Bolt’s on his devices all day as we all are and everything is pretty good. How many of us need these speeds? Please at least consider the fiscal side of the argument. Surely dismissing these concerns is not wise. What else could we do with that investment?

          • “But, and it’s not immaterial to the debate, does anyone here understand what a billion dollars actually is? Anyone care?”

            Why do you have this impression that we *don’t* know what a billion is? It’s a sum of money, though large in absolute terms is fairly small in relative terms.

            “We pay to build it, we pay the interest, we pay to operate it and then we pay to use it at a monopoly price.”

            Whoa, so we pay to build it AND we pay to use it? Your math is off. The NBN is ‘user pays’ – you only get billed once, not four times as that claim suggests.

            “We are talking about some seriously large amounts of the folding stuff here and for what?”

            To secure the necessary infrastructure for the future. The same reasons we spend hundreds of billions on roads etc.

            “How many of us need these speeds?”

            Pretty much all of us, take a look around at what people where doing a decade ago and what they are doing today. [There are internet archives if you want.]

            “Please at least consider the fiscal side of the argument. Surely dismissing these concerns is not wise. ”

            The problem is you assume that you have concerns. The truth of the matter is the vast majority of your concerns are simple FUD – fear, uncertainty and doubt. This mean, that while it’s very important to have concerns and question government projects, the majority of your concerns aren’t based in reality.

            Put it this way: Would you risk a $50Bn project that’s forecast to not only generate a profit, but add $1,000,000,000,000 to the economy, and replacing it with a substandard solution that could cost taxpayers tens of billions and the economy hundreds of billions simply because someone said it was a bad idea? That same someone who has a vested interested in changing your opinion regardless of facts [coalition], or makes his money simply by reinforcing your own existing opinions [some modern media]. These same people who have been proven time and time again to lie, mislead and deceive the general public?

            Isn’t it worth just a few minutes to check the information you are being passed before repeating it? Up to and including mine? Is it based on fact or fantasy?

            “What else could we do with that investment?”

            Us? Nothing. The nature of that investment is either we make it or we don’t.

          • “Put it this way: Would you risk a $50Bn project that’s forecast to not only generate a profit, but add $1,000,000,000,000 to the economy,”

            WOW. Now that is a big figure. I admire your passion but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. It’s a typo, right. The media you claim lie, deceive and mislead have a pretty good record when it comes to uncovering the facts. Sure they get it wrong at times in the process but how many ABC and Fairfax consumers were stunned when Labor sacked Rudd? How many were aware before recently that the asylum seeker policies were deadly in their compassion? I could go on but being sceptical and questioning with boldness is what makes our system work. I’d look into that figure before repeating it. It appears to have too many zeros and some damp pockets.

          • WOW. Now that is a big figure. I admire your passion but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. It’s a typo, right.

            If you’re looking at that solely as revenue NBN Co themselves could make then yes, the figure is far fetched.

            If you’re looking at overall economic use of the NBN, ie. new businesses, new services, etc, then that number is quite realistic.

          • “WOW. Now that is a big figure. I admire your passion but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. It’s a typo, right.”

            Well done, you noticed a figure of mine was bizarre and questioned it!

            What you didn’t do is follow up. For example: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=NBN+%241+Trillion

            Which gives me a bunch of news articles, let’s pick one – http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/427619/ibm_fast_broadband_rake_1_trillion_australia_by_2050/

            Turns out I referring to an IBM report that suggests that super-fast broadband [100Mbps+] will add more than $1Tn to our economy by 2050. If you wanted to know more you could google the name of the report [included in article] and find your way here:

            http://www-07.ibm.com/ibm/au/digitalfuture/index.html

            and for simplicities sake we’ll take a look at the summary:

            http://www-07.ibm.com/au/pdf/A_Snapshot_of_Australia_s_Digital_Future_to_2050_Executive_Summary.pdf

            And learn a bit about their reasoning and numbers.

            Now, I do not expect you to fall over backwards and radically changing your mind on everything, and I do expect you to take a critical eye over the report. However, the critical thing is that it’s information – here’s a big name company, doing a substantial report on how it thinks the future is going to turn out, and releasing it so that we can take a look at their assumptions, rationale etc. Now you can be informed.

            On the other hand, let’s take a look at that bolt report we just watched, where it was claimed that the NBN would cost $80Bn IIRC.

            Let’s see what we can find:

            “by AAP. MIS Financial Review, 19 December 2008. “The federal government could face a compensation claim of more than $80 billion if Telstra is forced to provide the company that builds the national broadband network access to its existing infrastructure…””

            http://www.egov.vic.gov.au/focus-on-countries/australia/trends-and-issues-australia/broadband-australia/government-could-face-80bn-compensation-claim-over-nbn.html

            Well that obviously isn’t the case, maybe he’s referring to something else… after looking at dozen articles I can’t find anything.

            That’s odd. When it comes to a proNBN claim there’s an IBM report that you can easily find and download. When it comes to Kevin Morgan on the Bolt report there’s… nothing to back him up.

            Now, does this sound a little fishy to you, or is this perfectly normal business?

          • You do really know your brief NPS. I simply cannot counter that. However I would caution believing everything you hear and read. Tim Flannery insisted our dams would dry up. Al Gore said the polar bears would disappear. Julia Gillard listened to the experts who guaranteed her the Pacific Solution could be dismantled without consequence. Ahmadinejad would have you believe his nuclear ambitions are for domestic power and Obama was adamant that unemployment would stablise at 6% if he could pass an $800b stimulus. Be aware of agendas and confirm historical proof of fundamental levels of competence and honesty before worshipping the written word of conmen and fools. Can’t hurt.

          • “You do really know your brief NPS. I simply cannot counter that. However I would caution believing everything you hear and read.”

            How come you continually caution me not to believe everything I hear and read, when I quite clearly do my research and make an informed opinion? On the other hand, you are quite happy to admit that you do NOT do this research and that you DO listen to the ‘party line’ without any critical thought.

            It sounds to me that only reason you think your viewpoint is correct, is because you only listen to people who agree with your viewpoint. Bolt is a ‘accurate reporter’ because you’ll only let Bolt tell you what’s going on. Everyone else is being fooled by the evil Labor.

            It’s this kind of extreme and blind faith that means that no matter how I try, I cannot vote coalition.

          • It’s a common sense thing and a rewarding formula. If the stark contrast of the past decade hasn’t opened your eyes then nothing will. Your ability to research and argue a point is second to none. However the one debate you could never win is that Leftism provides better outcomes for the people. If you choose to look into the history of Leftist governments be warned that you’ll need a strong stomach.

          • The most laughable part about some people’s anti-NBN argument is a warped reasoning that the NBN alone, is leftist/commie and as such no good.

            Then the same people say things such as, these dollars would be better spent on roads, rail, schools, not applying the same leftist/commie logic to these areas?

            Seriously, I suggest the reds are not under your bed jugga.

          • Just to help you; that number was a trillion dollars, that’s what it looks like. (There you go! you know what it looks like now!). Its ok you are probably just young and looking to Bolt for inspiration! One day you…

            ok I can’t keep it up. juggernaut: its an investment. You can’t spend the money on other things, because its not a budget item.
            You could potentially spend the interest (which is in the budget forward estimates) on other things, but overall, the investment will pay for itself. It would be better to make a different investment (and make money off that too!) than scrap the NBN as planned.

            Scrapping the NBN saves you very little, and costs you a ubiquitous fibre network that will reduce internet access costs (for the entire country) and improve internet access capabilities by a thousand times. (that is not an exaggeration, some people can’t get 1 megabit right now, and some of those people will be able to get 1000 or more megabits in the future.

            And that is just in terms of bandwidth. Latency for the entire country will be reduced by around half. Upload capacity for the entire country will go up by a minimum of 400 times, an average of a thousand times.. (0.5-1 megabit to 400 megabits).

            All off an investment that will pay us back our investment cost. And get this. Then the LNP can sell it! They can’t even fuck it up because there won’t be a retail arm to bundle in to it to make it a vertically integrated monopoly that competes with the other RSPs in the market.

            But you don’t care about any of this. All you see is: “Money spent by labor government” and you start having kittens. Fact is, the LNP right now want to spend money subsidising the internet for everyone. They have stated they would prefer to subsidise the bush, instead of invest in the bush. Subsidies that when they stop spending (because it costs the country too much) will make internet access costs in the bush skyrocket.

            Have you even looked at the alternative to the NBN? Whats there according to statements by MT and TA (and lesser extent hockey) scares the shit out of me. They want to literally throw money (to Telstra and others) to perpetually subsidise internet access in the bush. They don’t want to invest in a network that will be capable of cross-subsidising, they want private enterprise to make all the money that would go to cross subsidies and give it to their share holders.

            But sure, we aren’t thinking about the financial aspects at all…No, we are too left leaning to even care.

            Just as an aside: my opinion is that we shouldn’t throw money at anyone if it is not for building actual infrastructure – the LNP should keep their cash instead of spending any money on subsidies like they propose. Actual infrastructure investment is what this country needs, not more subsidies.

          • “Just to help you; that number was a trillion dollars, that’s what it looks like.”

            I responded with an excellent post explain how I got that number, what it means etc – but it’s not yet been moderated :(

          • OK, here’s a compromise. Labor pay down the $200 billion and DELIVER a $50 billion surplus and then you can have your near useless BB. You get what you want, I get what I want and our kids pat us both on the back for not having spent them into oblivion.

          • “OK, here’s a compromise. Labor pay down the $200 billion and DELIVER a $50 billion surplus and then you can have your near useless BB. You get what you want, I get what I want and our kids pat us both on the back for not having spent them into oblivion.”

            How do we answer that?

            So we start by mentioning that Labor is currently paying down that debt, so your precondition is already met?

            Or do we ask who are you to classify broadband as ‘near useless’? $1TN is Useless?

            Okay, I expect those ‘facts’ will be dismissed as labor fantasy, but try this on for size:

            The Deloitte report (PDF) found 350,000 Victorian households and businesses want faster broadband than is currently available, an increase of 63 per cent over two years.

            http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/433618/conroy_uses_vic_coalition_report_support_nbn/#closeme

            That’s not a labor government BTW.

          • “does anyone here understand what a billion dollars actually is?”

            Yes. Next question.

            “Anyone care?”

            Yes. Next question.

            “We pay to build it, we pay the interest, we pay to operate it and then we pay to use it at a monopoly price.”

            So your first complaint is when “we” pay to build it and your last complaint is when that money is paid back by the users. Interesting. Very interesting.

            “Bolt’s on his devices all day as we all are and everything is pretty good.”

            This is a reason not to upgrade communications infrastructure because everything is “pretty good” now? Also if everything is “pretty good” now if the coalition clowns get in you then have to justify spending ~$17 billion on a redundant FttN network that will have to be upgraded as soon as it’s finished. That’s their plan.

            “How many of us need these speeds?”

            What speeds are you referring to? There are currently 4 speeds to pick from; 12/1mbps, 25/5&10mbps, 50/20mbps & 100/40mbps as well as another 3 (250/100, 500/200 & 1000/400) to be made available at a later date. Please clarify.

            “What else could we do with that investment?”

            Not much. ~$4 billion a year may seem like a lot but wouldn’t go very far elsewhere. It is a relative drop in the ocean in comparison to other government spending. At the end of the day you still have to upgrade your communications infrastructure so suggesting it be “invested” elsewhere is an argument I would expect from those with a political agenda. Nothing more.

          • Not much. ~$4 billion a year may seem like a lot but wouldn’t go very far elsewhere. It is a relative drop in the ocean in comparison to other government spending.

            Anyone complaining about $4B/year going on the NBN would crap themselves if they saw what welfare (the largest government expense) costs per year.

          • “3 million page impressions per month”
            In about the same way that Kyle Sandilands is the most trusted radio DJ.

            “the duck’s guts” As you put it would actually be a point to point fibre network.

            “But, and it’s not immaterial to the debate, does anyone here understand what a billion dollars actually is?”
            I think we’d all assumed it was a thousand million. Do you know better? (ask a silly question…)

            “Anyone care?”
            Yes, that’s why I’ve read the business plan. It’s why I’ve spent a lot of time on whirlpool reading, and occasionally responding, to various modelling scenarios.
            Have a look at the current budget here, Table 3:
            http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/bp1/download/bp1_bst6.pdf

            The NBN Funding requirements can be seen on page 81, exhibit 9-11, of the plan: http://nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/nbn-co-corporate-plan-6-aug-2012.pdf
            Nearly all of the funding to June 2015 will be equity.

            “We pay to build it, we pay the interest, we pay to operate it and then we pay to use it at a monopoly price.”
            The government take out a loan to build it. The government pays the interest or else it accumulates. _We_ pay to use it.
            At rates that are of comparable value to current ADSL, or cheaper. Unless you happen to be an extremely high quota user. Even then there are options in the works. The user payments form the revenue earned by the NBN Co. This in turn pays back the loans and interest. The user pays for the system. Once.

            “How many of us need these speeds?”
            Everyone will benefit from these speeds. Technological innovation, in these telecommunications dependent areas, relies upon the lowest common denominator principle to achieve mass market take-up rates when offering new products and services. Cloud computing, multimedia platforms and delivery, new generation social networks, telecommuting, e-education, e-health. Even if you don’t benefit directly the effect on the economy is estimated conservatively at 1% of GDP.

            “Please at least consider the fiscal side of the argument. Surely dismissing these concerns is not wise.”
            Do not think for a minute that we are dismissing the fiscal side of this. We know it intimately.

            “What else could we do with that investment?”
            As I’ve told you before, it’s a loan. You cannot spend it elsewhere. You need to get the return to pay back the loan.
            Neither is it mutually exclusive of any other investments that support repayment of the loaned amount.

          • I should have proof read that better. The Budget link is to provide some context to government expenditures compared to the funding requirements of NBN Co.

          • “3 million page impressions per month”
            In about the same way that Kyle Sandilands is the most trusted radio DJ.”

            Bolt’s an opera loving, tulip growing family man who has an occasional hit of tennis. He’s a reader and a thinker who has a very considered political opinion after having worked previously for the Hawke govt. Do you have a more appropriate comparison?

            “But, and it’s not immaterial to the debate, does anyone here understand what a billion dollars actually is?”
            I think we’d all assumed it was a thousand million. Do you know better? (ask a silly question…)”

            Good Point

            “Anyone care?”
            Yes, that’s why I’ve read the business plan. It’s why I’ve spent a lot of time on whirlpool reading, and occasionally responding, to various modelling scenarios.
            Have a look at the current budget here, Table 3:
            http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/bp1/download/bp1_bst6.pdf

            The NBN Funding requirements can be seen on page 81, exhibit 9-11, of the plan: http://nbnco.com.au/assets/documents/nbn-co-corporate-plan-6-aug-2012.pdf
            Nearly all of the funding to June 2015 will be equity.

            OK, but do we really, really need it? Can we live without it for now especially considering the dire state of the world’s economies?

            “We pay to build it, we pay the interest, we pay to operate it and then we pay to use it at a monopoly price.”
            The government take out a loan to build it. The government pays the interest or else it accumulates. _We_ pay to use it.

            Ummmmmm. That obligation is made by the govt on our behalf. That’s your loan and mine and ultimately our kids. Better hope the govt isn’t outsmarted by the private sector or we’re toast. Companies that care for shareholder returns (all but Fairfax) don’t generally roll over and die. You may want to be able to explain to the kids in ten years that you seriously pondered worst case scenario before the great leap.

            “At rates that are of comparable value to current ADSL, or cheaper. Unless you happen to be an extremely high quota user. Even then there are options in the works. The user payments form the revenue earned by the NBN Co. This in turn pays back the loans and interest. The user pays for the system. Once”

            Now that sounds exciting. A free HSBB network and it costs the same as todays rates. Beauty. Can you print off your post and put it in a very safe place for future referral. This will be the biggest lesson you’ll learn in your lifetime. Priceless. These people can convince just about anyone. Be careful. Relentlessly persue the facts and factor in absolutely everything.

            You believe Conroy and his mates and I’ll stick with my own impeccable instinct and Bolta’s. He’s a little dull but very reliable.

          • He’s a little dull but very reliable.
            Very reliably and repeatedly sued (successfully) for the “quality” of his journalism. [reference]

      • “Andrew Bolt … the most trusted name in journalism”
        WHAT?

        I didn’t know there were people who were capable of such selfless trust.

  7. For years bolt was one of the loudest critics of carbon tax, which hasnt been the disaster he said it would be.

    I guess he now needs something else to focus his considerable amount of venom towards.

  8. Dog bites man.

    When Bolt comes out saying something positive about the NBN – THAT would be news. Maybe when he gets it installed in his cave.

  9. Few points…..
    It is reasonable to predict based on recent history that this government will botch this thing and the ramifications will be harmful. Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?
    Does anyone stll support government monopolies and if so why for heaven’s sake?
    Our current broadband is OK. Aren’t there more pressing needs?
    Isn’t the convenience of wireless the future?
    Piling on 10s of billions to our current debt is surely reckless. We must live within our means.
    If the Coalition had been returned we’d have high speed BB already without the ludicrous pricetag and govt intrusion.
    Bolt is a wise and cautious man with a history of accuracy exceeding his peers. Arguments based purely on logic, integrity, courage and honesty should be opposed with equal caution.

    • “Our current broadband is OK.”

      LOL, okay, if you say so.

      “Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?”

      Mike Quigley? Absolutely. Can I have my $50b now?

      “Piling on 10s of billions to our current debt is surely reckless.”

      What debt? The NBN should make approximately $5b a year in revenue once it is completed, so it won’t take long to pay back any cost it takes to achieve. That’s why it is off budget – it is an investment that makes return.

      Why does it feel like this has been explained a thousand times before?

    • Regarding recent history, you’re really drinking the Liberal kool aid.
      The Libs were strongly against the stimulus package put together by Rudd, and yet by a looooong way, the financial community both here and around the world agree that Rudd got it right and saved Australia from potential recession at worst, and at best thousand of job losses.
      Labor get NO credit for managing the economy through the worst economic crisis since the 1930’s depression.
      The school buildings project has in fact not been widely criticised. Abbott managed to find some problems, which were not the majority, and he’s still banging on about it, and the public have just accepted his take on events.
      Which leaves the roof insulation scheme, which was no doubt rorted badly. But the minister in charge (Garrett) flagged that early on, but was over-ruled by Rudd – which is one reason i wouldn’t support a Rudd return.
      All in all, I think there is very little concrete evidence federal labor can’t manage complex projects, or looking at it another way, are worse at managing big capital projects than previous governments (including coalition).

      • Good try Muso but I’ve been around a while. At some point you will come of age and demand the truth from those who aspire to lead this country or opine on politics. All I can suggest is that you read and read and read some more. Fill it right up with every piece of knowlege you can find as Bolt has done. Most importantly, find out the truth for yourself. Sorry to say Muso but many thousands of hours reading awaits but it’s worth it to be able to understand these people and be fooled no more.

        • I’m 53.

          (Abbott mentioned pink bats again this morning, in response to the expert panel report on stopping the boats).

          • And my actual experience is that our current broadband sux big time.
            I could be doing more work and paying more taxes, but I can’t operate on 1.5Mbps.
            A couple of kilometres away they are spending billions on mining infrastructure though.
            I just ask for something thrown the way of other (longer lived) businesses.

        • Ahhh, the “superior knowledge” argument. It’s a change from straw men I guess.

          • No I’m not claiming superior knowledge, I’m just pointing out why in real experiences the Aussie internet is not ‘currently ok’ as was claimed.

        • “All I can suggest is that you read and read and read some more. Fill it right up with every piece of knowlege you can find as Bolt has done. ”

          I trust bolt because he is accurate.

          How do you know?

          Because he says he is.

          And what about all the evidence against him?

          Don’t be silly, Bolt has looked at all the evidence and knows what is right.

          How about your own critical though?

          I’m a strong conservative, not a destructive lefty who will destroy the nation.

          —-

          You can see how this can get annoying after a while?

          • It’s pretty important NPS. Anyway, I do read Bolt every day as part of a ritual of reading practically every printed newspaper word. Conservatives want to know what everyone is thinking to decide based on ALL information. This is why conservatives in government succeed and don’t blow billions on crap. You think I’m annoying. Read some of the adult children at Crikey.

          • You do some much reading… and yet have so few rationale reasons for your position.

            Inverse correlation between perceived knowledge and actual knowledge.

            The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

    • “It is reasonable to predict based on recent history that this government will botch this thing”
      You mean the beat up where the media run with Tony Abbott’s beat up? School Halls, huge waste, 3 times more paid for halls, etc, etc. The enquiry results? 1.25% overpricing complaints.
      How about looking behind Tony and his media mates beat up if Labor and look at the real numbers behind these huge failures Tony is trying to force into the Australian psychy?

      “Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?”
      Umm, they run Australia and it’s a lot bigger than that.

      “Does anyone stll support government monopolies and if so why for heaven’s sake?”
      Because for big infrastructure projects competition doesn’t work. It’s a utility supply like gas or electricity.

      “Our current broadband is OK. Aren’t there more pressing needs?”
      It takes many years to upgrade the infrastructure. If we didn’t do it now come 2020 we would be a communications backwater.

      “Piling on 10s of billions to our current debt is surely reckless. We must live within our means”
      It is well within our means and the plan pays it back, the Liberal’s plan doesn’t

      “If the Coalition had been returned we’d have high speed BB already without the ludicrous pricetag and govt intrusion.”
      The Liberal’s lack of any communcations plans while they were in power is why we are so far behind the rest of the world now.

      “Bolt is a wise and cautious man with a history of accuracy exceeding his peers. Arguments based purely on logic, integrity, courage and honesty should be opposed with equal caution”
      ROFL, ROFL, ROFL

      • Are you govt?…. because that is copy/paste Labor talking points. NBNAccuracy sounds like the “minute men” I feel all propagandised and slimy. Labor would never do such a thing surely. I’m jumping in the tub.

        • No, not government. Wouldn’t work for the government in a pink fit.

          The copy pastes were your points, straight from the Liberal taking points on broadband.

          • “No, not government. Wouldn’t work for the government in a pink fit”

            Why not mate. With your level of passion, commitment, dedication and knowledge I’m betting Conroy would remunerate you more than handilly

    • “It is reasonable to predict based on recent history that this government will botch this thing and the ramifications will be harmful.”

      That means you must have reasons… what are they?

      “Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?”

      Oddly enough, NBNco’s management team come from people hired to run multi-billion dollar companies and deals. So the answer is yes.

      “Does anyone stll support government monopolies and if so why for heaven’s sake?”

      The government itself is a monopoly.

      Roads, Defense, Regulation, Law, Policing etc.

      In regards to GBE… I’m very happy with the job Auspost is doing for me.

      “Our current broadband is OK. Aren’t there more pressing needs?”

      Are broadband is okay… today. Actually it’s kinda crappy today, costing many business schools etc $XXXX+ but we’ll ignore that. NBNco will be finished in ~10 years… using ADSL2+ then is kinda like using dial-up today. Or do you believe that we’ll suddenly plateau and the 50%+ per year growth we are seeing will disappear?

      “Isn’t the convenience of wireless the future?”

      In my house we have 2~3 smart phones, a cordless phone, 3 laptops, 2 computers, 1 PS3, 1 Kindle. All of them using wireless… you know the kind that goes to my router and out of my house via fixed line infrastructure? Mobile wireless is great – but it’s inherently very limited in terms of speeds, capacity and reliability. In other terms – to move from fixed line to mobile wireless is EXPENSIVE for most people.

      “Piling on 10s of billions to our current debt is surely reckless. We must live within our means.”

      Our current debt is nothing, in fact some peopled argue debt is necessary and good [don’t ask me, I leave that to the experts]. The NBN costs something like $3Bn a year for the next 10 years. We’ll spend around $1000Bn dollars in that same time-frame on welfare IIRC.

      “If the Coalition had been returned we’d have high speed BB already without the ludicrous pricetag and govt intrusion.”

      The coalition to date have not released any plans for high speed broadband [beyond a laughable plan back at the last election], and have had ample opportunity to deliver under Howard. The simple matter of fact is they want you to think they can do it, but refuse to provide the slightest evidence that they can. Hell, they are continually inconsistent between members on what their own supposed policy is.

      “Bolt is a wise and cautious man with a history of accuracy exceeding his peers. Arguments based purely on logic, integrity, courage and honesty should be opposed with equal caution.”

      I don’t watch him regularly, but I watched one recent youtube episode on this issue and I have to say, I found logic, integrity, courage and honestly missing from that episode. I did find lies, exaggeration, bias and misrepresentation.

      Remember, I’m not a labor OR liberal stooge. I’m a guy that knows a little bit about computers that has bothered to READ the information presented by both sides, and done a little bit of background research. I suggest you do the same.

      • Thanks for your response NPS but if you have confidence in this lot to deliver successfully then I have some land on the moon to sell. Likewise private ind and free market produces better outcomes and that is just an indisputable fact. Please name each minister in the current govt that has value added. Most have specialised historically in wealth destruction. Don’t discount debt. That’s our kids’ wallets we’re raiding. Remember, we are asking future generations to pay for extravagance now to build it whilst paying more for the service now and into the future. It’s a compounding wallet emptier with a flawed business case drawn up on the back of an envelope by a guy rejected by his own party for incompetence. In 10 years we’ll all mock the fools who failed so dismally so best now to consider carefully our response to their infantile actions. ie. what is worst case scenerio and are we prepared to live with it? Just thinking of the kids.

        • Did it take you long to laern all that Liberal party retoric by wrote or do you copy each point from a guide?

        • “Thanks for your response NPS but if you have confidence in this lot to deliver successfully then I have some land on the moon to sell.”

          That a good start to a rationale debate.

          “Likewise private ind and free market produces better outcomes and that is just an indisputable fact.”

          While you dispute that I’ll just go down my government funded road, get my government funded health care, provided by government funded education…

          If you honestly believe that the free market always produces better outcomes, then you’re living in the wrong country – Australia as a whole recognizes that pure free market doesn’t deliver everything that we want, and that it’s just a very useful tool.

          ” Please name each minister in the current govt that has value added. Most have specialised historically in wealth destruction.”

          So I’m meant to name specific ministers and prove that they’ve ‘value added’… while you can get off simply by announcing a ‘history of wealth destruction’? A little one-sided?

          “Don’t discount debt. That’s our kids’ wallets we’re raiding. Remember, we are asking future generations to pay for extravagance now to build it whilst paying more for the service now and into the future.”

          Except that you’re completely wrong? The debt for NBNco will be paid off within [most of our] lifetimes, and generate huge benefits for our children and children’s children.

          ” It’s a compounding wallet emptier with a flawed business case drawn up on the back of an envelope by a guy rejected by his own party for incompetence. ”

          Of course, you have plenty of evidence to prove that the business case is flawed… so where is it?

          “In 10 years we’ll all mock the fools who failed so dismally so best now to consider carefully our response to their infantile actions. ie. what is worst case scenerio and are we prepared to live with it? Just thinking of the kids.”

          Worst case scenario? We die tomorrow.

          Worst Semi-Realistic Case NBN Scenario? It gets sold off half complete to Telstra [or similar] who are able to reinstitute a profit seeking monopoly that refuses to do more than absolute minimum in terms of pricing, maintenance and upgrades and is paid subsidies by the taxpayer while doing so.

          Note: This is far worse than NBNco costing even $100Bn – at least then you’d have a NBN.

          • I’m impressed. Your style is commendable and very professional. The point by point returns are more reflective of a Bolt conservative than a big govt leftist. Are you intimate with this thing? Hey, if you’re prepared to put your house and the family inheritance on this one then that’s good enough for me. Until now I wouldn’t have trusted contemporary Labor with anything of consequence, especially my kids’ and theirs wellbeing. Maybe the great Bolta has manipulated me into believing black is white. Hmmmm. Nup. Labor state govts and Labor federally are certainly dangerously inept and please don’t make me elaborate. I work and don’t have time. I’m a conservative with a proud history of accurate predictions based on common sense and this one doesn’t end well. With increased age and wisdom you will understand this. For now, in a quest to avoid future embarrassment, just take what Labor and their allies say with a grain of salt. The garden path leads to the pile of BS.

          • “I’m impressed. Your style is commendable and very professional. The point by point returns are more reflective of a Bolt conservative than a big govt leftist. Are you intimate with this thing?”

            Thanks you :) I’ve been following this for a few years now.

            The problem is, as you’d note by my last response is the biggest pile of BS that I can honestly credit the ALP with delivering is better IMO than the best case scenario of what the Coalition will deliver.

            And while I understand your liking of conservatism, given how badly they’ve deliberately lied and mislead Australia over the last few years on the NBN alone I cannot give them any support. There’s a huge difference between having a different way of solving problems, and pure deceit.

          • i dont have a house or a family inheritance to bet on the thing. but if i was one with a handful of free cash atm i would personally invest in the NBNco bonds as soon as they are released – and i hope the release is brought forward ASAP.

            the thing is actually run by Mike Quigley on the governments behalf – a bloke who has spent many years with Alcatel-Lucent so unlike say, Rudd and pink batts, he actually knows what hes talking about. what the tech is, what it can do and how much it is to get it to the door. in other words he has scads of ‘private enterprise’ experience and you can therefore quit worrying the thing is being run by some student unionist who doesnt have a clue.

            you certainly dont have to be ‘intimate’ with the policy but given most people dont know the difference between GB and Gb theres a certain level of knowledge thats worth having if you dont want to be laughed at by those who would build your network, regardless which side of politics you sit on and whether you prefer FTTN to FTTP. i certainly concede there have been inept programs floated at all sorts of times by all sorts of governments – this is not one of those cases though.

            regardless what i might think, it seems you have a built in expectation of Labor (as inept) and so you are already set up to believe that party couldnt do anything otherwise. thats a pretty stark worldview to hold…. allow the possibility they might have got it right and look into the nuts and bolts of what it would take to enact each partys policy. ditch any preconception of competence for either policy on the basis of who is presenting it – you might be surprised in your findings.

          • I’d love to be optimistic about this one Nonny but reality gets in the way. Sorry, I really hope it works out for us all but I have to go on the balance of probabilities and consider the personalities involved. Wouldn’t it be interesting to open a book and see what odds the punters put on success.

          • The punters have spoken: http://delimiter.com.au/2012/02/21/nbn-enjoys-prolonged-popular-support/

            There have been many, many similar surveys and they all show widespread popular support for the NBN. It even shows that there are more traditional Coalition supporters in favour of the NBN than opposed.

            Look, you can say that you don’t trust the government to finish the project because of past experience, but there’s also been government run projects that have completed on time and on budget. I much prefer to take each policy on it’s own merit — if you just distrust everything the government does, then you’ve lost before you even begin. Why even vote?

          • Well, I would normally vote Liberal, and have most times. I simply connot vote for them this time. Even setting the NBN aside. Tony Abbott is not someone who should run this country. It’s bad enough he is in politics at all. The guy is a waste of air.

          • Got me. Please tick the boxes of attributes you most despise.

            Fit and Healthy
            Christian Family Values.
            Rhodes Scholar
            Service To and Love of Country
            Low Taxes
            Work for the Dole
            Secure Borders
            Remote Community Work-Holidays
            Volunteering-Fire/Surf Lifesaving
            Boxer
            Economics Degree
            Strong Convictions
            Proven Success in Govt.

          • I just take the one a few you missed

            Serial liar
            In opposition doesn’t try to better governement policy, just destroy

            The Rhodes scholarship is neither here nor there. Read his biography. He got it because of connections in the church. He was pretty average academically.

          • “Service To and Love of Country”

            LOL, I missed you slipping that in. Service to and loving himself I’d say.

          • “Worst Semi-Realistic Case NBN Scenario? It gets sold off half complete to Telstra [or similar] who are able to reinstitute a profit seeking monopoly that refuses to do more than absolute minimum in terms of pricing, maintenance and upgrades and is paid subsidies by the taxpayer while doing so. ”

            Yes. That’s the REAL Coalition policy. I’m gratified that someone else can see it.

        • “Thanks for your response NPS but if you have confidence in Kool Aid then I have some Kool Aid to sell. Likewise Kool Aid. That’s our kids’ Kool Aid we’re raiding. Remember, Kool Aid whilst paying more for Kool Aid. It’s a compounding Kool Aid, KOOL AID, Kool Aid incompetence. In 10 years we’ll all Kool Aid infantile Kool Aid. ie. Just thinking of the Kool Aid.”

          Not sure if trolling, or just … wilfully ignorant.

          Maybe it’s satire…

          Seriously, though:
          “Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?”
          Mike Quigley – President and Chief Executive Officer of Alcatel USA
          http://www.nbnco.com.au/about-us/our-people/executives.html
          And the rest of them each have a history of employment satisfactory to run a $50b+ enterprise.

          “Does anyone stll support government monopolies and if so why for heaven’s sake?”
          http://lmgtfy.com/?q=+natural+monopoly+government+infrastructure
          Take your pick of sources, or alternatively pick up an economics book.

          “Our current broadband is OK. Aren’t there more pressing needs?”
          http://www.itnews.com.au/News/302883,internet-traffic-forecast-to-reach-13-zettabytes-in-2016.aspx
          Also, are you suggesting that there is something else with a business case to support load repayment that is mutually exclusive of this one?

          “Isn’t the convenience of wireless the future?”
          Stick a quarter of the fixed line internet traffic on mobile wireless and see what happens.

          “Piling on 10s of billions to our current debt is surely reckless. We must live within our means.”
          Surely any statement of “Adding X to our current debt is surely reckless” is surely meaningless.
          We must take on good debt. Not bad debt. Yet on face value your suggestion of spending our NBN loan on something without a 7% ROI is bad debt.

          “If the Coalition had been returned we’d have high speed BB already without the ludicrous pricetag and govt intrusion.”
          If the Coalition had been returned we’d have _maybe_ some more taxpayer funded subsidies to private companies, and very little to show for it.

          “Bolt is a wise and cautious man with a history of accuracy exceeding his peers. Arguments based purely on logic, integrity, courage and honesty should be opposed with equal caution.”
          Despair.

          • In response to the gentleman with the broken capslock key, I apologise if my abbreviation has offended you. I’ll readily admit that your post got a rise out of me; it came across as mildly offensive, patronising, and factually incorrect. Perhaps your post was more innocent than it sounded. The unfortunate nature of text based communications is the loss of tone and other indicators. I thought three times about whether to respond at all to what could have been a troll. I thought twice again about whether the posts were indeed satire (there was something similar not too long ago on another article). I decided to provide some answers anyway. I have read the business case, I work in a related industry, and I’ve been following both sides of the argument since the initial fttn tender was canned. I am not particularly pro-Liberal or pro-Labor. In fact I attended the Melbourne protest against the internet filter if that means anything to you. I’ll take a position on a policy based on the merits of that policy.
            Everyone is indeed entitled to an opinion, but I’m more interested in logic, evidence, and reality. What you have presented to us, in your initial posts at least, has shown contempt for the truth of the matter. You appear to have made no attempt to find information on the issue at hand yet purport to tell us that we’re all doomed to generations of out of control debt. Hyperbole does not an argument make.
            Now, if you had come to us with facts/references, queries or concerns you would have achieved a different response from me at least.

            As it so happens, the NBN has the potential to boost the economy and provide the infrastructure that could support jobs for our children in the years to come after the mining boom. I was going to link you to the Swedish study but the link is no longer active. Anyway, here is an article on the study: http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2012/05/01/3493131.htm

            Does anyone have a working link to the actual study?

            At this stage, the alternative ‘policy’ to the NBN ignores the wider economic impacts. The revelation today that MT is seeking a specifically BT style FTTN rollout moves him closer to a potential solution but much more debate is required in that area.

            (Renai, this was intended to defuse the situation a bit. Your call if I have missed the mark.)

          • CAPSLock key fixed. Where did my post go? It was brilliant. Are you moderating Mr Conroy?

    • It is reasonable to predict based on recent history that this government will botch this thing and the ramifications will be harmful. Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?
      The australian labor government have been spending our 150 billion dollars (per year) OK over the last 5 years. [wikipedia.org] Especially given the GFC etc. In fact, we got a big gold star [euromoney.com] from some international organisation for the way we have been spending our money.

      Does anyone stll support government monopolies and if so why for heaven’s sake?
      Yes. Ever drunk any water ever? They seem to do ok. (and I’d trust them a thousand times more than any corporate who might cost cut.)

      Our current broadband is OK. Aren’t there more pressing needs?
      Yep. But, thats why we aren’t giving away 50 billion dollars, and are instead going to charge people to use it. Thus, user pays. Oh, and current broadband is “OK” for 60% of us, it goes down to “really shit” for everyone else. (and is just propping up the corporate Telstra monopoly at the moment anyway)

      Isn’t the convenience of wireless the future?
      No. The convenience of wireless is the future of wireless devices (duh). Wireless cannot support all internet traffic. even if it had 100 times the bandwidth it does now, it couldn’t support current wired internet usage. It just can’t (this is a hard physics problem).

      Piling on 10s of billions to our current debt is surely reckless. We must live within our means.
      It isn’t adding to debt without putting in place a plan to repay it. Also our debt is shockingly tiny, and we are living within our means already. This is a horrible meme that the liberals have spawned that we can’t have government spending. We aren’t in trouble, never have been, infact we are doing so well, we should be spending money now so that when we actually are in trouble, we don’t have multi-billion dollar telecommunication upgrades that are actually required.

      If the Coalition had been returned we’d have high speed BB already without the ludicrous pricetag and govt intrusion.
      Proof? what was their plan? please give it to me.

      Bolt is a wise and cautious man with a history of accuracy exceeding his peers. Arguments based purely on logic, integrity, courage and honesty should be opposed with equal caution.
      … well played good sir. You trolled me well.

    • “Does anyone stll support government monopolies and if so why for heaven’s sake?”

      Err, have you heard of natural monopolies? Spectrum allocation? Electricity generation? Defence? Roads? Would you prefer to pay 20 different tolls on your way to work? Do you want a repeat of the 2G/3G wireless rollouts, three more or less identical networks for which their customers are now paying through the nose? I certainly don’t. The NBN is definitely nation-building, something I never expected to see from either of the obsolete parties, and I’m glad it’s a monopoly. It’s worth every penny just for cutting Telstra off at the neck.

    • “Would you employ these people to operate your own $50b+ enterprise?”

      Would you employ a man who got his financial experience from one of the companies regarded as largely responsible for the GFC, and who is on the record as saying not to believe anything he says unless it is prepared in writing and even then maybe not, with a budget sustainably more than 50b?

      You talk about billions of dollars of debt while the LNP want to adopt a US style funding model for infrastructure spending which is to gift money to the private sector to fix the problems. If you want as I’ve seen the LNP put it “school halls or steroids” try giving billions of dollars to the private sector in a scheme administered by a government department who lets face haven’t largely work in the industry of large network deployments, and you will get just that. Although as has been mentioned schools halls wasn’t the big failure the LNP want you to believe, and the biggest source of ineffectiveness was schools trying to get things done quickly without proper planning to ensure access to money, but the main aim of school halls was to spend money to keep multiple sectors going while the world wide economy was in a freeze due to the GFC.

      Could the NBN be done better? maybe. If the NBN was truly as bad as the LNP would have you believe it wouldn’t be built for the exact same reason we don’t have Labor immigration policy. We have a minority government which means all parties and independents get their say in policy, but the LNP seems to want to be that kid who sits in the corner and saying I could do better when they failed to be selected team captain while the rest of the class goes out and plays some cricket.

    • “Bolt is a wise and cautious man with a history of accuracy exceeding his peers. Arguments based purely on logic, integrity, courage and honesty should be opposed with equal caution.”

      Hey, you’re a funny guy! That’s the funniest thing I’ve read so far today!

      • Glad I made you laugh Eli but what’s so funny? I’ve never been here before and it’s a little hostile. Anyone here over 30? Does anybody fear the Whitlamesque largesse or have I stumbled into the perpetual adolescence zone. Calling on those who have lived a little and studied a lot. HELP! This teenage party just got outa hand.

        • Maybe there was more in the Whitlam era than you care to recognise, but then hate to dectroy your delusions. ( I was there and involved in technology fro the mid 60’s)
          Whitlams biggest crime was rocking the conservative establishment boat

        • Huh, “largesse” like Medibank? No-fault divorce? Free university ed? (you should try some, It’s Time!) Multiculturalism? Land rights? Trade practices? TAFE? Trip to China? Withdrawal from Vietnam? If you don’t know this stuff, you shouldn’t mention him.

          • “Free university ed”

            Define free. At 61 and still praising Whitlam there’s not a single thing I could say re politics that you’d be interested in. But you sound like a good bloke anyway so all the best to you and your family. Sometimes I wish to be so carefree.

          • “still praising Whitlam”

            I didn’t praise him, I just listed a few of the achievements of the government he led. You’re not doing yourself any favours by displaying your reading comprehension issues so widely.

            “there’s not a single thing I could say re politics that you’d be interested in.”

            Correct at last!

        • 40+, with an extensive family history in IT development. I have siblings that helped develop both ADSL2 and VOIP, and personally 10 years of analytical skills and network support. Oh, and 20+ years in tax administration around that, so understand the financing as well as the technology.

          I dont consider myself an expert in the field by any measure, but I know more than the average person.

          All in all, a fairly standard profile for the average pro-NBN poster here, maybe a touch below average actually. There are some very informed people here.

          There is absolutely no way a Liberal FTTN plan, as that style is understood, can match the benefits (short, medium, and long term) that the Labor FTTH plan does.

  10. Bolt is a propagandist, nothing more. If the exact same project was being built by the Liberal party and was at the exact same stage, he would be singing its praises as a fantastic nation building exercise.

  11. Bolt has form on the NBN – not surprising of course.

    When he was on Insiders he claimed that – and I kid you not – that Hong Kong was developing a new satellite based technology that will make the NBN redundant.

    As anyone who has the first idea about about telecoms or broadband would know this is complete ++++++s.

    1] Why would HK need satellite broadband when they already have 100% FTTH?

    2] Satellite is the most expensive way to deliver bandwidth on a per GB basis.

    3] Satellite is only really suitable for deployment in markets where there is no fixed-line network in place.

    I complained to the ABC about it but shockingly Bolt has continued to talk out of his derriere….

    • “When he was on Insiders he claimed that – and I kid you not – that Hong Kong was developing a new satellite based technology that will make the NBN redundant.”

      Interesting — when was that?

      • Here you go….

        Last year on Insiders (28/11/2010) Andrew Bolt made the bizarre – and completely bogus – claim that, “In Hong Kong they have just unveiled a new broadband scheme delivered by satellite. As we go on, every year every technological development on that front – and there will be more, you know that in six months you will hear another announcement like this and then another – it makes this thing [NBN] less and less profitable.”

        That quote is verbatim, I went back to the tape and re-watched it so I could transcribe it fully – its one of the most outright stupid comments I have ever heard about broadband, particularly referencing Hong Kong which is drenched in fiber.

        Hong Kong needs satellite broadband about as much as Malcolm Turnbull needs to take a shelf stacking job at Coles to make ends meet.

        I wrote to Media Watch about this and they got back to me saying that they could not do much as MW had finished for the year and would watch out for his future comments.

        I later complained about comments made on the NBN by Chris Kenny and got a fuller explanation about Kenny’s comments (he claimed that nobody else was building nationwide FTTH and closing down older networks, not true, the Singaoreans are).

        I got a letter back from Alan Sunderland explaining that the comments were down to Kenny and that “the views of guests on the program are their own and do not represent the editorial opinion of the ABC.”

          • Wow, one of Andrew’s right-wing readers had heard of LTE – that must make them an expert on broadband!!!

            More worrying is that Andrew seems to think LTE is magically delivered by satellite……

            This is what you get when you have ‘shock jocks’ with so much political capital, they feel they have the right to talk about any subject under the sun with total authority – despite the fact they know nothing about 99% of them.

            I have been an analyst in the telco field for well over a decade, its about one of the few things I know anything about, if the subject changes to healthcare or education I tend to stay out of it because I really don’t know enough about the subject to make an informed and worthwhile comment.

            If only Bolt et al would actually do the same.

          • Reading some of the ‘expert commentary’ on that blog actually caused me physical pain.

            When people type this crap in they must actually believe in what they are writing, where does this confidence come from?

            I would never go onto a blog on say, cardio surgery, and start waxing lyrical about one type of surgery versus another because I don’t have a bloody clue about it.

            Yet go through that blog and there are plenty of Boltites who have decided that they are, in fact, experts on broadband deployment.

          • Just read that Wiki link….now I really am shitting myself knowing that this has scientific proof.

        • Japan released a satellite for broadband a year or 4 ago with a 1 Gbps connection speed, or something like that. I remember being impressed with it at the time at any rate.

          Anyhow, it hovers somewhere over SE Asia, with it being capable of reaching most (if not all) of Australia. So if it can reach us, it can certainly reach Hong Kong. Perhaps thats what he was refering to.

          Not that it changes any of his argument.

          • Satellite broadband has been around for years, the biggest broadband satellite deployed so far was the iPSTAR project deployed by Thaicom, they actually sell services in Australia through a local re-seller.

            The iPSTAR-1 satellite had huge capacity – it was the biggest telecoms satellite ever launched at the time – but the project floundered because even with a huge 45Gbps capacity it was still a very expensive service to deliver.

            All of this ultimately comes down to a simple factor – the cost per GB of delivery – satellite and 3G/G will always be more expensive than fixed-broadband because there is just only so much capacity available at any one time.

          • Sorry Tony, missed your response. Yeah, i know satellite has been around for a while, was more just pointing out that there were satellite launches in the area that would offer such services to Hong Kong, and was suggesting that he’s confused those in his opinion piece.

            It still doesnt make his argument any better.

  12. As I say, the biggest argument the coalition seems to have is on cost.
    They say the NBN is the rolls royce version of broadband the country can’t afford.
    I think the country can afford it, and I think it’s a wise investment given that Australia can’t compete on cheap factory and agricultural workers, and mining has a finite lifecycle.
    Again, it’s sort of a no brainer that government aren’t very good at managing big projects, but that goes for coalition governments too. The alternative is worse. The private sector had more than ten years to develop better technology infrastructure and epic failed. When I arrived here in 2005 from the UK I was appalled at the state of the internet.

    • +1

      The beauty of NBN though is that it isnt the Govt managing it, its a private company – NBN Co. sure, its heavily commited to the Government, but it has some very astute businessmen running it, who have a proven track record in the industry, and considerable credibility – Liberal politicians opinions notwithstanding.

      As you say, the private sector has had 10 years to show they are wanting to invest, and have failed to step up and deliver. And to be fair to them, I cant blame them. It just wasnt worth it any more.

      It still wont be in 5 years unless there is a new playing field to work from, which involves removing all copper from the connection path. While thats there, the development costs and rollout times mean its a dud investment for any profit oriented firm.

    • Honestly, I think we can’t afford not to run FTTP.

      FTTN will lead to higher maintenance costs, higher running costs, a much lower potential seeling price, and will need to be replaced soon – with FTTP.

      We can’t afford FTTN. We can’t afford an NBN solution apart from FTTP.

  13. And for those who thought Bolt is bad – this is from Turnbull:
    ( http://www.zdnet.com/au/coalition-to-reassess-huawei-nbn-ban-7000002442/ )

    “Turnbull re-iterated previous statements that the Coalition would take a fibre-to-the-node (FttN) approach in many areas, adding that every network is ultimately an FttN network.

    ‘You might think you’re fibre-to-the-premises, but in fact you are fibre-to-the-node; it’s just the node happens to be on the corner of your house, and you connect to a copper network in your house’ ”

    This is getting more and more ridicules…

    • That’s not even true, DSL is not required for FTTP, but it is for FTTN. It’s this kind of plausible-sounding-but-untrue doublespeak that really frustrates me. Turnbull should know what he’s saying is straight-up misleading.

  14. ‘You might think you’re fibre-to-the-premises, but in fact you are fibre-to-the-node; it’s just the node happens to be on the corner of your house, and you connect to a copper network in your house’ ”

    umm .. where is the demarcation in LNP’s NBN proposal?

    Because if he’s claiming that FTTN is the same as the FTTH NBN that is being rolled out now, that means the demarc is further in the premises, meaning he’s claiming my home network as part of the NBN rollout.

    Sorry Malcolm, but what travels over my home network has nothing at all to do with anyone else outside of it.

    • No, let him run with that line. Its a great excuse for the Lib’s to do a proper FTTH rollout and stick to their FTTN claim. All the pro-NBN people want is the fibre line to run to the actual house.

      However it gets there is of secondary concern, so if MT wants to roll out FTTH and call it FTTN, who ultimately cares!

      • Nope. This is yet another of the recent attempts by Turnbull at ‘we’re the same as the NBN but cheaper’ smokes and mirrors routine. The deceptiveness is breathtaking – it’s a shame no journalist will question him on this…

        • Just like in 2007 when in government and their OPEL was going to cheaper and sooner than the then oppositions err, FttN (which they referred to as fraudband) :/

  15. Renai, every time people engage the trolling Andrew Bolt they do him a favour, and you are riding his back by using him as the basis for this piece.

    He is no more qualified to comment on the topic than his namesake Ursain Bolt.

    Having read many profiles on the man you can draw no other conclusion other than he’s Sacha Baron Cohen gone native, a man who saw the success of Glen Beck and created his own local version without the crazier Beck aspects.

    Bottom line. By all means cover the people who matter but are populist like Barnaby Joyce or Abbott, and the crazier analysts, but if you continue to cover Bolt, you’re just feeding the troll.

  16. Sorry, but not withstanding the ridiculous shouting, that imo, was arguably the most misinformed and bigoted comment I have read on Delimiter.

    Now before you go the usual route of those likeminded here and scream personal attack, “read” – I am not attacking you, just the misinformed nature of your comment.

    No wonder some love Bolt, Jones and Co, so :/

      • Seems the ridiculous comment I was replying to has actually been deleted…

        +1 Renai.

        Everyone is entitled an opinion but at an evidence based forum such as this, such nonsense is just flame baiting, not being productive.

        Perhaps more suited to an AB blog ;-)

  17. Who knows how long the boom will go for, we all know it won’t last forever. We are in a good position to advance our old ways here in Australia, we may not get in such a good position ever again. Spend them billions!

  18. Mr Bolt,

    You, sir, are a blithering idiot, and would do well to heed the wise words of Bernard Baruch.

    “Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.”

  19. I notice no one here mentioned that Morgan worked for Beasley and represented the ACTU!!!

      • Explain how the NBN is not political. It could potentially end the ALP if another issue doesn’t get there first. Plenty around.
        Equation
        NBN = Nation Enhancing – YES to arguable degrees
        NBN COST = Nation Limiting – YES to arguable degrees
        CHEAPER ALTERNATIVES – YES to arguable degrees
        RISK = Large-Crazy
        ALP DELIVERY ABILITY (PROVEN) = Get on your knees and pray

        • Lets look at each of those.

          NBN = Nation Enhancing – YES to arguable degrees

          I dont think ANYONE (until you) has tried to argue that an NBN from either party doesnt enhance the nation.

          Our telecommunications infrastructure has a 150 year base that its continually been built over, and residual issues as a result. Rebuilding the entire network is the only way that removes EVERY issue,

          Even if its the Liberal idea of only building to the node, that at least enhances the infrastructure out telecommunications works through. Not an issue, you’re trolling with this one.

          NBN COST = Nation Limiting – YES to arguable degrees

          Arguable… how? How does the cost ($27b, $36b, $37b, $43b, $50b, take your pick) limit our nation? It’s not reducing the money (ie tax dollars) the Govt has to run the country by that amount, its a loan, budgetted separately.

          If you’re tossing in the interest being paid, do a little research. You’ll find its an incredibly small amount, that wouldnt benefit any other area to the degree claimed.

          CHEAPER ALTERNATIVES – YES to arguable degrees

          Cheaper by what definition, and over what time frame? Cheaper to the tax dollars? No other plan put forward can be cheaper than the zero tax dollars the NBN will cost under labor.

          Cheaper in terms of total cost across all parties to roll it out? Short term, sure, the Liberal plan (as figured to date) to just roll out to the node IS cheaper, I agree. But its also a plan that has a 50% writeoff value when it needs to be upgraded in 5/10/15 years. From Malcolm Turnbulls own website.

          RISK = Large-Crazy

          How is it a risk? The Corporate Plan from NBNCo is one of the most detailed plans ever released, providing an improved asset that NOBODY disputes is needed.

          If you want risk, how about letting it be built by companies only concerned about profits (so will do it as cheaply as possible), and have proven they have little to no interest in the concept anyhow. How is that less risky?

          ALP DELIVERY ABILITY (PROVEN) = Get on your knees and pray

          Well… no, not proven. You’re refering to the school building projects, and insulation issues, correct? How about putting blame where it should, such as with the industry bodies responsible for ticketing the shonky builders responsible?

          It wasnt the Labor party that gave qualifications to the builders who rolled out the insulation, it was an industry body who just rubber stamped applications. A practice started under Howard by the way. Same with the school buildings – the ridiculous costs of some of the buildings were the result of over charging by shonky builders believing they could get away with it.

          Yes, there were 1 or 2 times where funding clearly went where it shouldnt, but any project of any size has issues. I challenge anyone to show me a Liberal infrastructure project that went perfectly.

          Oh, wait… There arent any, because they dont invest in national infrastructure…

          Equation
          NBN = Nation Enhancing – YES
          NBN COST = Nation Limiting – No national infrastructure in Australia has EVER been nation limiting
          CHEAPER ALTERNATIVES – Alternatives not cheaper, due to writeoff in short term future.
          RISK = Smaller risk than private enterprise
          ALP DELIVERY ABILITY (PROVEN) = Liberals never deliver because they dont invest

          Provide some facts to back up your beliefs. Before you ask me the same, read some of the previous threads on this site.

          You claim to be new to the site, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually are. So you wouldnt have seen the repeated links, given time after time, refuting every single one of your claims.

          Claims with no basis, and no evidence.

          You sound a lot like the other FUDites that post on this site, and for some reason remind me of advocate.

        • Going by that rationale everything is political.

          NBN is Nation Enhancing – Yes, according to the experts

          NBN cost is nation limiting – according only to one side of politics and typical bean counters, who favour a NO ROI alternative, making that claim absolute hypocrisy

          Cheaper alternatives – yes indeed. But don’t Australians deserve good stuff… which isn’t obsolete and WILL need to be upgraded to what is currently being rolled out anyway?

          Risk – one group of anti-NBN critics say NBN is a monopoly all Aussies are being forced onto – yet even with everyone ‘forced’, there is another group who say crazy risky. So which is it?

          ALP delivery – only a one eyed minion would even suggest one side of politics infallible an the other hopeless.

  20. @jugganaut

    +1

    @alex

    Beacause apparently if it’s on Bolt’s show, to most here on Delimiter, it must be “right wing propaganda”!

    • Well kentlfc, when posters such as Jugga say things like, yes Bolt and me are proud conservatives (not Liberals, “conservatives”) and proud of it, it’s admitted.

      So why get upset when others agree?

      My biggest gripe is the mistruths being peddled by Bolt either unintentionally or intentionally, not the fact that he is a political tool.

      *** Let me ask you kentlfc, do you think Bolt is a journalist with integrity… yes or no?

      Seriously you guys are entitled to your opinions, but your opinions do not fall in line with the NBN projections (and all projects are estimated) and as such are nothing but unfounded conjecture, most apparently stemming from political bias, imo.

  21. I’ve no problem with Bolt at all. His show is easily the most balanced when compared to Insiders or the unwatchable,scripted question slop that is Q&A (audience stacking anyone?)!
    As the host he is allowed his opinion but he gets someone from the left & someone from the right for every show.

    As for Kev Morgan’s piece, which this topic is based, well the guy IS from the left (centre left maybe)! Not all News Limited staff are right wingers! As not all Fairfax are lefties.

    “Kevin Morgan was the ACTU member of Kim Beazley’s advisory committee on telecommunications.”

    Why is Mr Morgan’s piece not valid? He knows his stuff doesn’t he? He made some valid points did he not? re: Optus cabling not being used when they could???

  22. Thanks NPSF but don’t they they still offer better speeds than adsl2+? Why do households need big upload speeds?

    “Will not support speeds necessary in the future – 1Gbps, 10 Gbps etc.”

    Neccessary for what? Instant downloads? Near zero waiting time to download a movie?

    Also, those in the bush will still not get any of these hyper speeds anyway.

    • kentlc please…

      It’s not about now, it’s about the future.

      Here is a copy of a Deloitte report into comms in Vic, ironically commissioned by the Vic government (remembering they are opposed to the NBN)…

      http://www.mmv.vic.gov.au/Assets/2593/1/TelecommunicationsSpendandDemandinVictoria2012ReportFinal.pdf

      From within…

      “Demand for faster broadband services is expected to grow significantly. Almost 90% of households will demand at least second wave broadband, representing substantial growth on current demand. In 2016, it is projected that 80% of households will want third wave broadband, compared to less than a quarter today.”

      If you are not still on dial up, it shows you do understand why speeds are important. If not, why aren’t you still on dial up?

    • “Thanks NPSF but don’t they they still offer better speeds than adsl2+? Why do households need big upload speeds?’

      “Neccessary for what? Instant downloads? Near zero waiting time to download a movie?”

      Why do you need 10Mbps? Why do you need 1Mbps? Why do you need 56Kbps? Why do you need 500bps? Why do you need…

      Understand exponential growth. Understand how technology works.

      • Understand that waiting for porn to download is frustrating. When it needs a whack it needs it now, not in 2 minutes, hey NPS?

          • Not a collectivist. Representing myself. Saving the country from fools with the power to spend us into European-style oblivion. All your arguments are directed there.

          • “Saving the country from fools with the power to spend us into European-style oblivion. All your arguments are directed there.”
            Just take the blinkers off and the cotton wool out of your ears for a moment and consider the sheer scale of the prosperity we could all enjoy if conservatives governed for longer than just the time it took to clean up Labor’s last mess. We’d all be swimming in cash and bold nation building projects would just happen as a matter of course. But we take 2 steps forward and then 2 steps back and have to force square pegs into round holes. It’s Labor’s constant pushing for more and more and do it right now, quick we must have it spend spend spend oh shit we’re a trillion in the hole OMG what to do what to do sack the leader vilify the opposition make up lies shut the press up election coming 30% primary Conservatives were right all along but there’s no money left and a mountain of debt.
            I agree the wait is frustrating.

          • Excellent arguments, so much fact and reason that I must immediately change my position!

          • Nice chatting but must be off to bed now. Big day at the office working hard for the next three lifetimes to pay Mr Quigleys salary. The extended family, friends and associates will be with me in our quest to eventually pay just his wage in taxes for many happy years to come. Oh, the pleasures of having big govt. dicks enter our dreary lives. But we long for the day in 2019 when our speeds are exactly the same as they are now for having chosen the most affordable package available at $600pm.

          • “But we long for the day in 2019 when our speeds are exactly the same as they are now for having chosen the most affordable package available at $600pm.”

            If you had any facts you back up the crap you type you might get somewhere.

          • “Oh, the pleasures of having big govt. dicks enter our dreary lives. But we long for the day in 2019 when our speeds are exactly the same as they are now for having chosen the most affordable package available at $600pm.”

            Hey, if you don’t like the coalition policy you could always vote for the independents, labor or dare I say it… greens!

            Nice chatting with you :)

          • Hope they’re paying you overtime NPS. It’s after midnight. Grab your keys and jumper and go home mate. You’ve done all you can today.

          • Hey, I work odd hours… part of the whole deal where my clients are all over the world, You know, those people I want to talk to with that bloody useless NBN?

          • Haven’t all the US governments been conservatives? I thought they were in a right old mess.

          • Republican big govt. big spend progressives with a not insignificant degree of corruption thrown in. Not conservatives. Hence the Tea Party Movement of constitutional small govt. balanced budget conservatives. Some people are hellbent on preserving their country before debt to GDP reaches 1000%. Nutjobs. Hey, maybe Squiggles could expand the NBN to the US. Obama will love it.

          • What a great idea! But alas, the USA is paranoid and will only allow American tecxhnology and American companies to hold and own their infrastructure of national importance.. One rule for them, another for everyone else.

          • Aren’t lefties supposed to have a sense of humour? Anyway you may have a task convincing us that the NBN won’t be used to a large extent for porn downloads considering it is the most downloaded crap on the Net. I’m sure you’ll find studies and opinions that disagree but nobody’s buying it. Fast porn for all. Yeah man. Can we get Labor to confiscate Fosters Group. I can mount a case we need it.

  23. Ahhh……..the old “racism” case against Bolt! Knew you’d bring that nugget up.

    We’ll see how long the ridiculous part of the act that got him in trouble stands up when a full blood (and a great woman) aboriginal woman, Bess Price gets sued by a white laywer for suggesting that someone “looked like a white fella to me”!? One lawyer has already questioned……….. Even lefties are concerned about 18c!!

    Dial up if not for phone charges on every connection, would nearly do for my business. 256 would be plenty plus I have a good 3G connection. Oh yeah wireless….the most popular way to go online in Oz!

    • I didn’t bring anything up, I linked to others who have already proved Bolt is not fit to be a journalist.

      The fact that you instead of accepting the facts, went off on some wild racist rant in his support and then admitted dial up isn’t good enough (nearly though), whilst ignoring the Vic governments report (so not a bought and paid for NBN report – sigh) clearly saying by 2016 90% of households will be wanting third wave bb (50Mbps or above – such as FttP) suggests I waste my time and risk a sin binning for even trying to rationally correspond with you here :/

  24. Sorry, your 1st link sent me to a post about Bolt’s “racism” case?

    And pray tell, what did I say that was racist? I was quoting someone? Not my words.

    • Seems we are both guilty of accusing the other, when we were both just quoting someone else…

      Oh well we have 1 thing in common…

      :-)

  25. According to Lateline France http://goo.gl/GCvtO, his own admission and the parliamentary register, Malcolm Turnbull has bought shares in France Telecom which plans on delivering fibre to 15 million French premises. FT presumably sees a euro in the project. Malcolm buys shares in a French company yet Australians would not have an opportunity to buy shares in a similar Australian venture.

  26. Andrew Bolt? Oh, enough said. Facts of fallacy anyone? Would you like idiocy with your broadband? No?
    No.

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