news iiNet’s National Broadband Network pricing released today were higher than existing ADSL prices and demonstrated Labor’s flagship NBN project would not bring Australians cheaper broadband, Liberal MP Paul Fletcher said this afternoon.
iiNet’s plans released this morning range from $59.90 per month for an entry level service with a bundled telephone line, all the way up to $109.90 for a terabyte package at 100Mbps speeds. In general, the plans are comparable to iiNet’s current ADSL broadband plans provided over Telstra’s copper network. However, they are substantially cheaper than earlier plans released by rival Internode in late July — in some cases up to $80 cheaper for a similar plan.
However, in a statement issued this afternoon, Fletcher — a former Optus executive and one of the key Liberal politicians interested in the telecommunications portfolio — said it wasn’t iiNet’s fault, but the prices were too high.
“I calculate that iiNet’s entry level naked DSL product today costs around 70 cents per gigabyte – but its new entry level NBN product will cost $1.25 per gigabyte, or nearly 80 per cent more,” said Fletcher.
“iiNet’s entry level NBN product will cost $49.95 a month, for speeds similar to today’s ADSL2+ broadband (12 megabits per second down and 1 megabit per second up) – with a download limit of 20 gigabytes in peak times and a further 20 gigabytes in off peak times. Today, iiNet’s entry level naked DSL product costs $69.95 but offers download limits which are two and half times higher, at 50 gigabytes peak and a further 50 gigabytes off peak.”
Fletcher said that his comments didn’t represent a criticism of iiNet — because the company could only set prices in line with the wholesale pricing structure set by NBN Co, the wholesale-only company building and operating the NBN.
The Liberal MP pointed out that Prime Minister Julia Gillard had told Federal Parliament last year that the NBN would offer lower prices, alongside better competition and better broadband products. “This morning’s release of NBN consumer pricing plans by iiNet confirms that Labor’s claims of cheaper broadband over the National Broadband Network are not being met,” Fletcher said.
The Liberal MP also pointed out that none of the three ISPs to announce NBN pricing so far — iiNet, Internode and Exetel — had launched products including a “low-priced voice-only product”, despite the fact that dominant telco Telstra currently had about 5.2 million voice-only basic telephone lines provisioned.
“Many voice only customers are not well off – but they need the phone to stay in contact. Today they can use Telstra’s Homeline Budget, with a line rental charge of $22.95. But so far there has been no retail voice only pricing announced on the NBN,” Fletcher said.
In addition, highlighting iiNet’s minimal charges allowing customers to upgrade the speeds they received under the NBN (for example, going from 12Mbps to 50Mbps for an extra $15 per month), Fletcher said iiNet’s pricing demonstrated that consumers would not pay a premium for higher broadband speeds.
“We keep being told that consumers are desperate for the high speeds that the NBN can deliver – but apparently an experienced retailer like iiNet does not think consumers will pay much of a premium for those speeds,” Fletcher said.
opinion/analysis
Back in December 2010, I wrote the following:
“One can’t help but be disappointed to see former Optus executive and now Member for Bradfield Paul Fletcher on Sky News over the weekend questioning whether the rollout of the National Broadband Network will force higher costs on basic voice telephone services — or even calling directory assistance.
Now, I have always respected Fletcher for both his integrity and his opinions. But frankly, it’s hard not to come to the conclusion right now that the MP is barking up the wrong tree when it comes to criticising the NBN on the basis of basic services. When you roll out fibre internet around the nation and start providing broadband services at 1Gbps, the provision of “basic voice services” at an affordable price is the least of your problems. Basic voice telephony will be virtually free at that point (through Skype, Google Talk etc).”
These are the same comments I would make today.
In addition, I would point out that the reaction so far from Delimiter readers towards iiNet’s NBN pricing has been uniformly positive. These are good, affordable prices, and very comparable to current ADSL plans.
Image credit: Office of Malcolm Turnbull
Oh dear – Mr Fletcher resorts to cents per Gigabyte to ignore the fact there is a cheaper entry level plan. He also mutters darkly about the voice only component but knows full well that really only offers that as an infrastructure service and the price from Telstra will remain controlled under the price cap and USO provisions.
But far far worse Mr Fletcher I think was in the room at the G9 planning meetings where we struggled to explain to Internode and iiNet why “per node” pricing was wrong and why yo needed to charge a premium for higher speeds. These guys have never got value based pricing and instead do cost based.
PS The reason why iiNet needs to reduce the capped amount is because at more reliable download and upload speeds customers will more easily be able to use their allowance.
“but knows full well that really only offers that as an infrastructure service and the price from Telstra will remain controlled under the price cap and USO provisions.”
What ‘price cap’ are you on about here, and what that’s got to do with USO provisions?
We of course are talking about the NBN, so Mr Hyatt do you guarantee no end user will pay more for a voice only service off the UNI-V port on the NBN ONT box than they pay for the cheapest voice only service service from Telstra?
That is $22/mth + calls?
welcome back alain, the cheque finally arrived, eh?
;)
Nothing changes eh RS?, still playing the man I see.
only when the man is fos.
interestingly the correspondences here have been quite fruitful and cordial, over the last week or so, ironically, while you were absent!
and no nothing changes, still trying to silence those who disagree with you, eh!
I didn’t start making it personal you did, as I said banning has no effect, business as usual RS.
gee remind me not to welcome you back next time since it upset you so.
and keep trying to silence me. obviously, much easier than accepting the facts.
Alain, WTF ? lol O.o
I want to use my Internet as effectively as the money that goes to paying for it…, I pay $99/mth for VOIP & NDSL atm and would see myself using this new iiNet plan anyday…, I am a normal everyday workin person and don’t make a fortune, but the internet does control a lot of my life and NUMEROUS others who do pay a fck load than this… !!!
We live 10mins from Brisbane CBD and our Internet is fak’ed seriously…, I’ve also lived 5mins from Adelaide city with crappy internet speeds, unless ofcourse u r livin in a fancy house in em NEW housing estates with FTTH pre-installed.
The Libs thus far are full of shit…, I haven’t see any worthwhile alternatives from them except upgrading HFC’s to DOC3 then wireless LTE, do you even know the ramifications of LTE with congestion, latency, jitter ???, they love the blame game or the opposing game….
NEVER EVER WILL I VOTE FOR THE LIBERALS !, UNLESS OFCOURSE THEY CAN UNLEASH A DECENT PLAN FOR OUR FADING CRAPPY INTERNET !
Labor has had an OK run thus far, lets see how they go ending their term….
What has anything you said got to do with what I said?
I disagree with your summary on the reason that many business, and some homes do not run the internet today – and they may still require a home phone/fax service, for which they may not want to pay the $49/m that the current plans start at, as well as a VOIP package for outgoing calls, etc.
Sure many do, but I agree with the MP that it needs consideration – possibly not to keep harping on about it, but some media attention and focus by the NBNCo would be appreciated.
Of course that’s not my focus, because I want gigawatts of speed at low cost – which a lot of these plans still fall in the realm of “you could use your quota in minutes”.
Hopefully in the future we quotas scale up and costs scale down with competition – but it’s the base NBN cost that is going to prohibit that, and it’s a shame that I agree with the minister, that if NBNCo prices the base wholesale price higher than current standards then the NBN will never be cheaper to consumers than current alternatives – and that does break a promise.
Anyway, I know Telstra will only just keep increasing prices on fixed lines, and lets face it, these guys are going to have the fixed lines ripped out and given the choice of NBN or Mobile – but I would hope there’d be some affordable NBN/VOIP plan that comes in ~$15/m with 1gb for voice use.
A few things to keep in mind. Plans don’t currently start at $49.95, they start at $34.50 (from Exetel).
I agree it would be good to have a cheap voice-only service (and I think it will come), but I can’t see you getting it for less than $24/month, since that’s the NBN’s cheapest wholesale price. Telstra’s standard line rental will go up to $34 this year, so I think you’ll certainly see phone-only NBN services for $30-35 from most operators.
Exetel is a budget ISP, you have to compare the equivalent plans from the same ISP
From that its obvious (as Fletcher has stated) that NBN is more expensive than current ADSL2+ pricing.
Furthermore, with the first level entry being $24 a month, it is not possible for NBN to offer a product thats cheaper then Telstra’s homeline, being ~$23 after GST is factored in
Exetel’s cheapest phone+internet bundle is cheaper on the NBN than via Telstra copper.
… and if you don’t want Exetel VoIP?
Don’t order it.
ok I won’t, I will stay on Telstra Homeline Budget at $22/mth, oh hang on a sec I can’t, Telstra are shutting down the network because Conroy doesn’t want any fixed line competition and is gifting Telstra taxpayer billions to do so.
The NBN FTTH the most expensive PSTN emulator in history.
Telstra copper is the slowest and most nonfunctional broadband emulator in history.
You tapped dance around the issue like I thought you would, the point is all about a voice only service on the NBN vs a voice only service on the Telstra PSTN.
Introducing a BB data allowance into the equation is irrelevant if you don’t want BB data, but then you know that.
alian there is no “tap dancing” here you must be imagining things again. People here have spelled out the options for you in crystal clear detail and all you do is whine all day long. You are boring.
Yes when it all gets to hard it’s time to to make it personal, nothing changes eh Hubert?
There is nothing personal about it and never has been I can assure you, just making a general observation about your demeanor. Now instead of derailing the discussion like you usually do when it gets too hard do you think you could stick to the topic just for once?
“the point is all about a voice only service on the NBN”
Given that nobody’s released any voice-only plans yet, I don’t see what you’re complaining about. Why is it so important that voice-only plan details be released this early? The NBN is not even out of trial phase yet…
@dean,
because since the nbn prices are coming down, contrary to the naysayers initial claims when internode first released, the cvc prices have been remedied, as nbnco always said they would and contrary to the naysayers claims, this is really all they have left to cling to…
sorry and the next election…
You should know that is irrelevant Dean, unless all 9 million premises are connected within 3 months and everyone chooses a 100/40mbps plan within 3 months after that it means NBNco has failed. doooOOOmed etc.
Fletcher is a moron.
http://i.imgur.com/ypWDj.png
holy cow, at 89 dollars per month (what I am paying now to Telstra and TPG) I can get 100peak, 100 offpeak, 100 megabits with iinet?
That my friend, is sold.
interesting.
i recall a number of nbn naysayers here, not mentioning any names, who, when internode first announced their nbn prices, compared those prices to everyone else but internode, to suggest the nbn was too expensive.
Except it’s not.
I’ll be saving $50 with a 12/1mbps 1tb NBN plan + netphone from iiNet. (the speed I just get now btw)
I’ll be saving $45 with a 20/5mbps 1tb NBN plan + netphone from iiNet.
I’ll be saving $35 with a 50/20mbps 1tb NBN plan + netphone from iiNet.
I’ll be saving $30 with a 100/40mbps 1tb NBN plan + netphone from iiNet.
These are all compared to current 1tb ADSL2+ pricing from iiNet which is $140 net+phone)
I don’t want VoIP which requires a ATA device, I want a service hung off the UNI-V port on the NBN ONT box, what is the comparative ‘savings’ on that oh wise one?
Cant say until NBNco reveal pricing obviously. Have you not been paying attention again? Will you be prepared to admit you were wrong if some sort of savings are to be made alian or will you come up with another excuse?
btw enjoy this review of Mr NBN voice port here: http://digitaldreamer.com.au/nbn-uni-v-voice-port-review/
There is no charge from NBN Co to enable the UNI-V port. Internode have already said that customers will be able to choose a VoIP or UNI-V based phone service at the same price over the NBN, because there is no difference in the cost of providing those two services. They just haven’t done it yet because it’s not enabled (testing commenced in Willunga this week).
You can probably ask Internode soon. They’re just starting to deploy UNI-V services in Willunga. I’m sure as soon as they have the process sorted out you’ll start hearing about pricing for UNI-V only services. There si clearly a market for it.
Sorry alian, no voice only service for you, looks like it will cost about $7 more than what you pay now.
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/272487,coalition-decries-high-priced-nbn-voice-services.aspx
If you have to compare equiv plans from the same ISP, how on earth can you say the NBN is more expensive than ADSL2+? What alternate reality are you living in?
In iiNet’s case (for example), the NBN plans are the same price (or cheaper) than their ADSL2+, and include greater data allowances. And that’s their limited on-net stuff, not the ridiculous pricing available to the majority who must go through Telstra wholesale. It’s the same story if you compare internode-internode and exetel-exetel.
That is Telstra’s current cheapest stand-alone home phone, which include exorbitant call rates (eg 30c local calls, v Exetel’s 10c national calls). Either way, it’s rather difficult to speculate about NBN voice-only prices that haven’t yet been announced by anyone.
Dare I also point out that Telstra’s standard line rental charges are going up from $30 to $34 this year, so what will the budget “$23” plan go up to? I’ll bet it ends up at more than $24….
With deregulation of the Electricity industry and the formation of so many new power co’s.
Wasn’t that supposed to introduce competition and lower prices?
Instead, it seems that everyone jumps on the same boat and inflates prices in unison.
Don’t go expecting prices to plummet from initial figures.
The past has many lessons to teach. We just have to pay attention.
They will continue to call black, white. What else can they do, admit they are wrong? They will spin till the end of the world rather than admit that.
You talking about Labor or the Coalition here?
lol
Both, polititions in general. It could also apply to you.
Funny how they are trying to rationalise this by claiming they are not cheaper and whining about voice only customers when there has been no retail voice only pricing announced lol.
Also
So making faster speeds pricing comparable to current plans and affordable is bad? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at this ridiculous statement…
Faster?
For me its actually slower and more expensive
You get more than 100/40mbps for less than $99? Link please. I would like to sign up for one of these plans immediately.
Same for me.
I sync at 23,500kbps (~24Mbps) and get 500Gb dl with TPG for $50 / month. Where is the better deal on NBN?
TPG have not released NBN plan details yet. However, which TPG plan are you on? I see only the $39.95+$20 line rental plan = $59.95 per month.
On iiNet you can pay $4 per month more for 25Mb/s and 200GB which is pretty close, but as I say, iiNet is not TPG, so you can’t really compare.
Yes apparently you can only ‘compare’ when a NBN Plan is cheaper than a ADSL plan across ISP’s, the other way around is not allowed.
I’ve looked at all the plans so far and I will be paying more than I do now, for less capacity. Speed is nice but I would prefer a nice fat cap, I do a lot of big file transfers for work. I am on Optus Cable so i’m in the minority and I like the NBN on the whole, but the pricing structure is obviously geared towards generating a return in the fastest possible timeframe, rather than getting the most people possible online.
With the CVC price the way it is (even with the discount), I can’t see anyone offering a really cheap plan for people like my parents in-law, who just want basic internet and will probably resort to 3G service.
Is $34.50 too much for them?
Nice rounding down Jean W, how about disclosing the full costs on that Exetel NBN plan, 12 month contract, $100 installation charge and the strong recommendation for a router with a ethernet WAN interface for firewall and NAT capability, the unit they recommend is a Netcomm at $85.
Why are you comparing iiNet plans to Optus plans?
As far as I can see on Optus you can get 80 dollar 500gb naked cable plan.
which is 20 megabits / 512kbits speed.
According to: http://i.imgur.com/ypWDj.png (posted earlier) for 85 dollars you will get 25 megabits / 5 (or is it 4?). Which is 5 megabits faster, and twice the data cap.
(500 gb peak/offpeak vs 250gb peak/offpeak).
Your upload capacity will be 10 times faster. (fantastic for sending stuff to work)
Your download capacity will be 25% faster (better for receiving stuff from work)
Your download caps will be twice as good (can only be better).
You get a phone line included.
Total cost difference: 5 dollars.
That is if you don’t have a phone line.
You are only better off if you have a phone line.
for that plan on optus, more or less, +20 dollars = with a phone line.
(at which price you could get 500gb/500gb at 100 megabits on the nbn)
Then again, you might be on a grandfathered plan, and comparing apples and oranges, since you can’t actually buy that anymore.
Or, maybe the 120 gb naked?
60 dollars per month, 50gb peak, 70gb offpeak.
Since you need your high quota for work, I assume you really need the 50gb for work.
So, iinets 100gb/100gb plan at 65 dollars would roughly equate to the exact same trade off as above.
5 dollars, double your on-peak quota, increase by 50% your offpeak quota, increase your upload speed by 10 times, increase your download speed by 25%, get a phone line included.
I still don’t know which plan you are on.
Your parents in law, now THERE is the real answer!
That means what, you are married, meaning you are about my age, ~30. Your parents in law are nearing retirement at ~60.
By the time the NBN is finished, they’ll be 70. (Do they like sharing the one computer by any chance? If not I hope they enjoy trying to figure out problems with wifi network sharing when you are too busy to answer their calls!)
If they are anything like my grandma she actually *had* to get 3g wireless, because the nursing home she was in wouldn’t give her a phone line or cable internet access because they had a rim in the basement, and the same problems with getting apartments wired up with cable. (all or nothing).
They complain about high prices (Internode). They complain about low prices (Dodo). Someone lands in the middle, and they still complain.
*facepalm*
The NBN has never been promoted as being about creating “cheaper” broadband – it is about “affordable superfast broadband”.
(Hate that “superfast” cliche that’s appeared)
There’s a reason why “cheaper” and “affordable” are found on different pages of the dictionary. Because they have different meanings!
Actually Gillard and Conroy did promote it as being cheaper, they said so in parliament many times
You may not be aware of it or are just ignoring it
Cheaper than what exactly?
NBN phone+internet bundles are cheaper than current Telstra phone+ADSL2+ bundles.
What NBN PHONE + internet bundles?
Yeah, those UNI-Vx ports are for nothing, right?
Once again I missed that $$ figure in a voice only product hung off the UNI-V port.
alain, someone already commented above.
iiNet will use the uni-v port if you want them to for free.
Show me the iiNet page on NBN pricing that says a voice service will be free.
here we go again, an included in the price vs free, pedantic argument, rolls eyes.
Using throwaway terms like ‘pedantic’ and roll eyes’, doesn’t answer the question.
So voice included in the minimum price of a data port that you don’t need if you don’t want BB is not really free, or even close to being free.
so alain, is included in the price free?
exactly jean w,
as i said above – i recall a number of nbn naysayers here, not mentioning any names, who, when internode first announced their nbn prices, compared those prices to everyone else but internode to suggest the nbn was too expensive.
but ‘now’ they wish to compare the same company’s prices only and have yet another buck each way.
Most people cannot get good ADSL2+ service they are stuck on Telstra Wholesale, perhaps the author should investigate the prices iinet have to charge on that. Examine them they make the NBN look cheap and bountiful.
“iiNet’s entry level NBN product will cost $49.95 a month, for speeds similar to today’s ADSL2+ broadband (12 megabits per second down and 1 megabit per second up) – with a download limit of 20 gigabytes in peak times and a further 20 gigabytes in off peak times. Today, iiNet’s entry level naked DSL product costs $69.95 but offers download limits which are two and half times higher, at 50 gigabytes peak and a further 50 gigabytes off peak.”
So iiNet have a cheaper entry level plan on the NBN than they do on Naked ADSL. That’s fine. Not surprisingly, the plan with the lower monthly cost has a higher per-GB rate. If you look at any other plan table from any other ISP, that’s almost always the case! Hell, if you compare the cheapest Naked ADSL plan with the 1 Terabyte Naked ADSL plan the cheap one also has a higher per-GB cost. That’s not at all unusual and I think Fletch is being deliberately misleading with the figures he’s using.
What’s *really* stupid is that the NBN-2 plan from iiNet (http://www.iinet.net.au/nbn/) costs $59.95 on the 12Mbit plan and comes with 100+100GB. That’s *more* data than the entry level Naked ADSL plan for *less* money! You can even bump it to 25Mbit down, 5Mbit up for $64.95 and be getting more data, more speed and still be paying less! Yet somehow Mr Fletcher manages to paint the NBN plans as “more expensive”. That’re really quite ridiculous.
At least with the NBN we will finally get what we pay for. I guess you could call it “value for money” compared to current ADSL plans.
How many people achieve the advertised 24Mbps? How many people are paying for 24Mbps and actually get 24Mbps? Why should someone who achieves 1-5Mbps pay the same amount as someone who gets 10-15Mbps? Furthermore why should someone who achieves 10-15Mbps pay the same as someone that gets 20+Mbps? Essentially the NBN will take all of those arguements out of the equation, as it will now deliver the promised speeds in which the customer selects, unlike the current ADSL debacle. (I do realise that all ISPs advertise “upto” but that is a side note in my arguement).
Finally Australians will have a network that will deliver speeds in which users are actually paying for and achieving. That to me is a big plus in terms of value for money!
The Coalition are out of their depth here, they have no viable alternatives to the NBN and they are trying any dirty little political stunt they can to distract the efforts of NBNCo.
The only complaint I have is that I don’t have the NBN yet :) And that is more a tonge in cheek comment anyway.
Has the coalition forgotten that the NBN is supposed to bridge the digital divide? ie. it is supposed to make prices uniform between metro and regional users.
I’m on the Central Coast, about an hours drive to where I work in Sydney, and am classified as regional and hang off a Telstra DSLAM. For the same plan price as I pay today (actually $30/month cheaper since I no longer pay line rental) I’ll get about 12x download speed, 50x upload speed, and 2.5x usage quota.
Maybe it’s just more convenient for them to say people like me don’t exist.
That’s not what bridging the digital divide means. It means giving everyone equivalent access. Even the telcos themselves are under no obligation to keep the pricing uniform across city and regions. Wholesale prices are uniform, but the backhaul to get to the regions is expensive. Some ISPs could theoretically charge more for regional areas. Some will just cherry-pick the cities.
That’s not what bridging the digital divide means. It means giving everyone equivalent access
Exactly what I said.
As a “Regional” based area, connected to a RIM, if I had these options presented to me today my “Phone and Internet” bill would be significantly cheaper. Bring it on, lets push this out at a faster pace, these pricing options at my usage lever ARE NOT available to me now and unless NBN comes to my area I doubt I will get much more than im on now for the foreseeable future.
I call total BS on this story.
I pay $100pm for a connection that gives me maybe a 7mbit connection and about 50GB of data.
These prices are much better than what I get today on ADSL from West(ii)net
Just can’t make the Libs happy it seems. If their own plan were rolled out by Labor tomorrow, they would shout it down as being… too slow!!! too fast !!! too expensive!!! too confusing !!!
Why pick on iiNet’s naked product with it’s highly limited reach for their comparison. It’s apples vs oranges. aaaargh
iiNet Naked has better reach than the NBN, and it will still be so by election time 2013.
Something to think about.
Here is my own summary:
http://i.imgur.com/ypWDj.png
Conclusion: Fletcher is high.
I mean seriously, comparing a $50 plan to a $69 plan ????
Make a more realistic comparison and you get;
Naked 50G+50G $69.95
NBN 50Mbps 100G+100G $75
NBN 25Mbps 100G+100G $65
NBN 12Mbps 100G+100G $59
All similar price points.
I had to laugh at his attempt to compare a $70 plan with huge margin to a $50 plan and look at price per GB. Price per GB on the above plans that are actually in the same ballpark for cost works out to be ;
1 (Naked) 70c/GB
2 (50M 100G) 37c/GB
3 (25M 100G) 32c/GB
4 (12M 100G) 29c/GB
STOP PRINTING BULLSHIT.
COALITION CAN’T MAKE BROADBAND CHEAPER UNTIL THEY GET RID OF THE MONSTER THEY CREATED
IINET’s PLANS ARE CHEAPER THAN WHAT I CAN GET NOW, AND IS CHEAPER FOR THOSE ON TELSTRA”S NETWORK.
IINET’S PLANS ARE CHEAPER THAN CABLE PLANS (ESPECIALLY TELSTRA).
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
p.s I rather get banned then not to get my point across.
I think voice-only services are a valid issue. HomeLine Budget is $22.95pm including GST. The cheapest NBN AVC is $26.40pm including GST. Mike Quigley has said the deal with Telstra will take care of this discrepancy. What does that mean? Is Telstra going to be given a special AVC deal that allows them to offer voice-only services cheaper than their competitors? I thought that wasn’t allowed.
Your comparing two different things.
Line rental is something that is passed directly to the customer (i.e. $23/$30 per month).
Something that you conventionally didn’t put in your post.
And Homeline Budget is only available to a few people, not to everyone.
I’d like to see some evidence to backup that claim!
IFAIK it’s a Telstra only product and has conditions and limitations attached to its use. (eg Last time I looked … which was a while ago, using broadband on such a line was excluded in the conditions). The call rates are also particularly sucky.
Pointing to Telstra’s Homeline Budget to find short comings in the NBN doesn’t get you very far IMO.
That doesn’t backup daniels claim
se
There are 5 million people that use this plan, thats 25% of Australia, which is massive
Its a perfectly valid criticism considering that NBN is a monopoly and its being forced on people (if it wasn’t a monopoly, people wouldn’t care about it)
“(eg Last time I looked … which was a while ago, using broadband on such a line was excluded in the conditions).”
Totally incorrect, many 100’s of thousands have ADS/ADSL2+ on a HLB connection and the broadband doesn’t have to be from Telstra either.
” The call rates are also particularly sucky.”
You don’t need to use the Telstra call rates if you don’t want to.
“Pointing to Telstra’s Homeline Budget to find short comings in the NBN doesn’t get you very far IMO.”
Well it does actually seeing as you got all your facts wrong
Hi Alain,
You might find this interesting:
http://www.telstra.com.au/home-phone/plans-rates-connections/homeline-budget/
The fine print (point 1)
HomeLine® Budget customers agree not to acquire services from other carriage service providers by dialing their access override code and must not acquire a broadband service from another service provider which is provided using line sharing technology.
I was unable to get HLB at my apartment (metro) because I chose Dodo as my ISP. I just went through that last month with Telstra.
What Dodo plan?
@alain
3TB Metro
@Alain: (incase you intentionally ignore it from above)
Please read point one of the following regarding HLB:
http://www.telstra.com.au/home-phone/plans-rates-connections/homeline-budget/
must not acquire a broadband service from another service provider which is provided using line sharing technology.
Yes and how does that make any of what I said incorrect.
Hint 1: Read about how LSS is implemented and why.
Hint 2: Read about how resold Telstra Wholesale ADSL/ADSL2+ is implmented.
ummm let’s start here, AGAIN.
where you said ‘many 100’s of thousands have ADS/ADSL2+ on a HLB connection and the broadband doesn’t have to be from Telstra either’.
and the ‘facts from telstra’ pointed out by peter a.
the hlb customers… ‘must not acquire a broadband service from another service provider which is provided using line sharing technology’.
pretty obvious, you said they could telstra said they can’t. that’s where you are obviously incorrect, period.
perhaps you might like to add ‘ i missed the bit where hackett said that’ just to add to further humour?
FFS another one, read how it works, now go away.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1107648
So essentially, you can have the HLB with another service provider, but you wont really save anything because that service has to be going over TW hardware. Meaning the plan is generally going to be higher anyway.
Again, doesnt seem like much of a saving.
ah whirlpool, the place you hate with a passion and claim is node heaven, until you can use it…i see!
@RS (pepe)
That’s the nearest you can get at gagging on it and saying you got it wrong I guess.
@Mike
“So essentially, you can have the HLB with another service provider,”
No, you cannot get HLB off anyone except Telstra.
” but you wont really save anything because that service has to be going over TW hardware. Meaning the plan is generally going to be higher anyway.”
umm what?
“Again, doesnt seem like much of a saving.”
I don’t understand what you are on about with that ‘saving’ remark, I think you are totally confused, read the link again and think about how LSS works and have another go.
yes trying to ‘gag’ (silence) me again, how predictable…
careful, the truth may hurt.
@alain
Well no, I’m not confused, but I probably worded that badly. What I meant was that you can have HLB with telstra and then have a broadband service with another provider. The only catch is that the provider has to be using TW hardware. In this case, the plans from those providers are lesser in quota or cost more. So any savings going with HLB is gone.
@Mike
“In this case, the plans from those providers are lesser in quota or cost more”
Cost more than what?
@ alain
Then what it would cost if the provider was using their own infrastructure. If they are using their own infrastructure, you cant have HLB and an ADSL connection from that provider
You mean by infrastructure their own DSLAM’s in the exchange, yes I know that but that’s not the point I was making re having Telstra HLB and ADSL/ADSL2+ from another ISP other than BigPond and how LSS works.
It may still be more cost effective to have Telstra HLB and resold Telstra Wholesale ADSL/ADSL2+ service including BigPond than having a $29.95 PSTN package (resold Telstra) off a ISP coupled with their own DSLAM plan.
Off course Naked DSL is another competitor option off a non-Telstra DSLAM but as I said to another poster Naked DSL is not necessarily appealing to all and available in all exchanges.
Yep, but you can’t deliver a retail service at $23pm using a wholesale service at $26.40pm. You go broke.
How many retailers are in a position to offer $23 line rental without taking a loss? What’s the call rates on the bespoke Homeline Budget like?
Pretty good if there are 5 million people on it
You claimed that doing line rental under wholesale would send you broke. Not necessarily if you place restrictions and bump up the call costs ;)
btw, where can I see the figures for HLB subscribers?
There was a time the media wouldn’t let politicians get away with stupid comments like these. He’s compared entry level NBN $49.95 plan to the Naked DSL entry level plan of $69.95. When $59.95 NBN plan comes with 200GBs!!
Yep, he’s an asswipe.
Unfortunately jurno’s ain’t got the balls to call a liar out when they see one. A experienced minster explicitly delivering FUD – should be hanged, not repeated as *news*. Common people – it’s got public interest written all over it!
Exactly, Renai, you seem to be the most conflicted blogger I have seen on this issue, you see the benefits of the NBN, you see the value/benefit it will provide consumers.
Yet it appears you allow your coalition bias to allow this sort of thing to go unpunished. As an upstart you really need to go after these people, on either side.
Before writing these articles please actually sit down, crunch some numbers and then call a spade a spade.
Fletcher is a snake, he is deliberately misrepresenting the facts and turn the Australian public against something that is in its own interest….it’s like the republicans and Obamas health care reform all over again.
Call these people out, he isn’t stupid, who cares if you once respected him, you know he is trying to pull the wool over Australians eyes.
How about this as the title.
Paul Fletcher tries to deceive taxpayers on NBN prices.
Show his quote, and directly refute it in the next paragraph with facts, as others have shown, for a similar price for the plan he quoted you get faster speeds AND better price per gig.
We already have iTWire as a mouthpiece for the Coalition, you seem to love the sensationalist headlines, but on one where its not even sensationalist, its just true, you basically run a Coalition memo as your headline.
Bullshit — if you read my opinion and analysis you will see that I criticised Fletcher pretty severely.
I have always stated that my position on the NBN is that I agree that fibre is the right technology for broadband in the future, but that I am uncomfortable with settling up another government monoply and winding back infrastructure competition. I am not alone in this view, and I have stated it consistently over time.
The only thing that Fletcher has proven above is that he is a) a complete idiot that can’t understand a simple comparison b) he believes the public are idiots. It really doesn’t help the coalition look very credible and makes me completely resent them for treating me like I can’t understand simple maths.
The Opposition are not trying to convince “us”. Just the people who truly don’t understand – a far easier job.
Well that can go both ways, once the sucker taxpayer wakes up to the fact that they will be paying for this NBN turkey for a eternity, and when the great Telstra and Optus forced migrations take place then the proverbial shit will really hit the fan.
At the moment the NBN is just a tyre kicker exercise in a few selected areas of Australia, with orange button openings and the interactive dance mat demo from the Labor/NBN Co traveling circus, when it reaches some sort of critical mass, like maybe 50% of how many are currently using FTTH in greenfield estates or with TransACT then we will have some idea on how it is going.
Hopefully before then we will have reached the election in 2013 and Labor will be history.
Hi Renai, dumb technical formatting comment: your Dec 2010 quote comes out here several font sizes larger than the surrounding text, which doesn’t look right. It looks like it’s formatted the way you’d format an extracted quote from the article itself (like when you’re trying to grab people’s attention to read the article)
p.s. I agree with all the comments above addressing the intelligence (sic) of Fletcher’s analysis. Doesn’t the guy have a conscience that makes him stop and think about what he’s saying?
Thanks for your comment, but it’s meant to look that way ;)
You people making disparaging remarks about Mr Fletcher should be ashamed of yourselves. When I first read this article my first comment was going to be “Is this guy retarded???” however I had enough sense and decorum to omit that and post something more constructive instead.
That’s the sort of quality pro-NBN comment that makes the Coalition job even easier, the irony is you and others that make that sort of immature school yard personal attack actually think it is witty.
Yes, they should be ashamed of themselves. I think it’s even more immature and juvenille. Almost bordering on the lows achieved in the parliment.
Yes alian we know the comments are deplorable but keep in mind Fletcher is a politician and fair game. No need to get emotional and cry about it for him, I’m sure he is used to it and can handle it.
I don’t care who is the recipient, immature personal attack comments are still unwarranted and adds nothing intelligent to the discussion.
Stop your whining. You’ve added nothing intelligent to this discussion ever.
Looks like the first ISP forays into voice only plans off the UNI-V port are coming out.
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/272487,coalition-decries-high-priced-nbn-voice-services.aspx
“Internode product manager Jim Kellett said the company was continuing to investigate prices around a voice-only service, with an achievable target so far of $29.95 a month.”
Oh dear the voice only residences will be pleased, never mind it will be ‘just like PSTN’, only more expensive.
Labor, full of BS.
jumping the gun again?
didn’t learn from last time, when internode first released their nbn prices and you did the same?
Yes like you I will be interested to see the voice only NBN service undercutting or equaling Telstra HLB, what will make it really interesting is the minimum wholesale cost for NBN data port is $24, so even if a ISP had the temerity to sell it at cost it is still more than Telstra retail HLB.
Obviously to embrace the Labor digital future voice only residences need to ‘feel the need’ for a BB data allowance they don’t want.
I fully expect Conroy will persuade Telstra to round HLB up in the interests of nation building.
One thing that seems to be overlooked in all this HLB talk is the cost of the calls on HLB.
Local calls are 3x more expensive on HLB then through exetel voip, mobile calls are almost 4x more expensive and STD calls are 7x more expensive. If those that are worried about $10-$11 per month month more, surely these would play a part.
So its not really any more expensive then a Telstra HLB as long as you make a few calls.
Just because you have Telstra HLB doesn’t mean you have to use it for voice calls.
Excuse my naivety, but what else would it be used for?
Faxes? Dial-up?
Oh. Wait. They’re technically still voice calls.
Wow, this has got to take the cake as the dumbest comment ever. What else would you use it for if not voice calls?
what about his classic before roads there were no roads?
You need to think outside the square, many have Telstra HLB but are only billed for the line rental and use other sources for voice calls.
Really? So they’re paying $22.95 per month for something they don’t even use? Talk about “thinking outside the square”…
Well not everyone can get or even necessarily want Naked DSL.
Telstra HLB is the cheapest ADSL line rental around and coupled with VoIP it is not a bad value and flexible combination..
Yes, but we were talking about those that want a voice only, brought up by you, “Oh dear the voice only residences will be pleased”.
You then stated we should think outside the square and that people use HLB as the cheapest line rental and then use VoIP for phone calls, which of course, requires an internet connection. They are no longer voice only customers.
Telstra HLB is the cheapest ADSL line rental around and coupled with VoIP it is not a bad value and flexible combination
And how do they get VoIP without a data connection?
Exaclty, and if they go HLB and a data connection, and then not use the HLB for voice, but rather the data connection. It would end up working out cheaper to go just a data connection over NBN then have both HLB and data.
@Mike
“use HLB as the cheapest line rental and then use VoIP for phone calls, which of course, requires an internet connection. They are no longer voice only customers.”
What are they then?
@Dean Harding
And how do they get VoIP without a data connection?
They don’t your point is what?
Alain, you’re not making any sense.
You say “Just because you have Telstra HLB doesn’t mean you have to use it for voice calls”
Then when I asked you what else you’d use it for, if not voice calls, you say you’d use it “coupled with VoIP”. So therefore you’d be using your HLB plan for data services (VoIP is a data service, right?)
So why are you talking about voice-only NBN plans if people are using their HLB plans today to get a data service?
“What are they then?”
Well if they have a HLB line + a data line to use the VoIP over, I’d say they are ADSL subscribers with a phone line through telstra.
“They don’t your point is what?”
Then if they dont have a data port for VoIP, what is the purpose of having the HLB line…
since you said this “Just because you have Telstra HLB doesn’t mean you have to use it for voice calls.”
You seem to be getting your thoughts crossed here.
As previously said by PeterA
I have already answered that TWICE! – I know this long embedding is a pain, but keep scrolling.
I have already answered that TWICE
I’m sorry, but you haven’t answered anything. Why are you talking about voice-only NBN plans if people are not using their HLB plans today for voice only?
so what you’re essentially saying is that its a good line rental cost to have a broadband service on.. which would mean that you might as well just take a cheap NBN plan with voice calls?
good point, I agree that the NBN plan would be much better value.
Hi Pepe, the reincarnation was quick.
I assume that means you won’t be answering the question, then.
Not for a THIRD time – no.
Not for a THIRD time – no.
Try as I might, I can’t find any instances of an answer to the question of what people are using their HLB plans for if not voice calls. VoIP doesn’t count, because VoIP is data and requires an internet connection.
Just cut’n’paste your last answer if it’s so obvious.
depends on the call plan costs, doesnt it?
HLB may be 22.95/month or thereabouts; but if you make any significant levels of calls that wont be the plan you pick – looked at the mobile, 13 and regular call costs lately? (they are here, for your perusal: http://www.telstra.com.au/shop/Consumer/NGTSOHomePlansView?catalogId=10101&storeId=10001&productId=40751&langId=-1&categoryId=16112&parent_category_rn=16112&top_category= )
so for those who intend using their line for various types of call – say STD calls 10 times a month; the drop from a 3$ cap 3h call to 2h cap can easily pay the difference in plan cost.
on that basis a 29.95 plan from Internode which will most likely be national area calls without any silly cap BS will be quite comparable.
‘more expensive’ for some; sure – but not necessarily. horses for courses and all that.
so to me the only bs being flung around is by those who take a very simplistic view of things and dont really look into them too far for fear of finding something that will leave them looking silly……
BTW from what i understand the PSTN port is essentially a 128KBps level line? and mono at that. i dont know what the UNI-V line is but going from Raaj’s comment that ‘it sounds like stereo’ im interested in the quality of service it is actually offering. if it is indeed a stereo service and probably a higher bitrate then comparing the UNI-V rate with HLB is apples to oranges anyway. again, there is some bs being flung around and again, the origin is debatable.
Why is everyone talking about voice when there has been no announcement from NBNCo about voice-only pricing? Specifically when you note that an NBNCo has set a commitment to keep pricing the same for entry level voice services which you can find in plain English on their FAQ.
For the lazy: http://www.nbn.gov.au/frequently-asked-questions/voice-services-over-the-nbn/will-my-landline-phone-cost-more-if-i-connect-to-the-national-broadband-network/
Yes, as I said they are again jumping the gun, rofl.
So the current minimum $24 wholesale cost for a NBN data port will drop to about $17-$18 so that that ISP’s can make a reasonable margin on a voice only plan?
Excuse my bluntness, but how the fuck would I know? I was just pointing out the FAQ.
Hypothetically the easiest way to do this is to provide a voice conduit of 150kbps/150kbps without an attached “best effort” component for data at $5 AVC, or $18 if NBN maintains the voice servers rather than letting retailers roll their own. That would be my guess, and we won’t know until they finish voice trails.
You might be right and that FAQ is a flat out lie, but why don’t we wait and see like civilised people?
The NBN Co has no intention of providing ‘voice servers’, from the article I linked above.
“An NBN Co spokesman confirmed the company would not offer a voice-only wholesale product.”
You require a NBN line to have a voice service off the ONT, the cheapest line is $24 which ties in with Internodes statement that they are aiming for a voice service for $29.95, which matches their resold Telstra PSTN product, funny that, must just be a cross infrastructure costing coincidence. :)
Other ISP’s may decide to provide a voice only service for the less than $29 but it it eating into their overheads and margin if they are already coughing up $24 wholesale for every line.
Of course the shit won’t hit the fan until Telstra switch off exchange areas when punters are forced onto the NBN, at the moment trial area residences have a choice, they can take the NBN BB line and still use Telstra PSTN for voice or ADSL2+ if they wish.
Until NBN voice only equals Telstra HLB many will stay with that choice, Conroy and the NBN Co will have to provide a bottom line wholesale price service so that ISP’s can match Telstra HLB, either that or you may see a rapid rise in Telstra HLB retail pricing before exchange areas are shutdown, so it is around about umm let me see just picking numbers out of the air – $29.95.
That’s not waiting. Do you understand the concept? It means… Not doing or commenting until after a specific event occurs. In this case the voice trails.
Obviously something has to be done, like I suggested a low cost voice conduit. Or maybe the fact the voice calls are cheaper will make up for the extra $6 meaning a lot of people will actually be better off.
Or maybe providers will opt to provide a loss leading product.
We don’t know. We can’t know. So stop bitching and wait until we have more information.
Great I look forward to Internode chopping $7 off their voice only NBN product before anyone signs up for it, they had better revise it fast eh?
Internode are just one provider. You might want to remember that.
Non trial areas are currently forced to use Telstra PSTN for voice or ADSL2+, they do not have a choice, what is your solution? Are you still suggesting that the copper network remain active after people have made the switch to fibre?
Telstra HLB is cheaper than present indications are for a voice only NBN equivalence, what I mean by equivalence is that a normal analogue phone can be plugged into the NBN owned ONT box and it works just like PSTN (well nearly, you don’t need a UPS or a ONT box for PSTN).
The copper will not remain active because Telstra are being giving billions to shut it down so that a voice only residence is forced onto the $43 billion NBN so they can use it just like they did with the PSTN.
So if I understand correctly your solution would be not pay Telstra billions and have the two networks running side by side so people can chose how they want to connect their phone or internet and if they want to connect etc? OK I agree, it actually sounds like a reasonable plan, let’s do that.. just one problem you still have to pay Telstra regardless for the use of the ducts. You OK with that?
Yes I am happy with that but that doesn’t count because Conroy is not happy with that, the NBN’s ONLY chance at being viable is to have competing infrastructure shut down, and that includes BB HFC.
If faced with a choice of PSTN voice only or NBN voice only most will stick with PSTN, especially if it is cheaper.
To ensure there is no choice the copper network has to be switched off so that residences are forced onto the NBN.
The problem is IF the cheapest NBN voice only option is around $29.95 voice only residences will rightly wonder why Labor bothered.
Maybe you should take up these complaints with Telstra, not NBNco or the government, they are agreeing to transfer their customers from copper to NBN fibre. We dont even know how much voice only will end up costing yet but I’d be surprised if Telstra were not able to maintain the same price.
That’s a pretty big “if”. I mean, remember when Internode were the only ISP to have released broadband prices and everybody used that as “evidence” that the NBN was going to be too expensive for consumers. Then other ISPs released their own plans and they were all consistently much cheaper than Internode?
Now we have Internode releasing th details of very first voice-only plan, and here we have history repeating itself: the prediction that the NBN is going to be too expensive! Maybe you should wait for other ISPs to release details before jumping the gun?
I mean, Internode don’t even have a voice-only plan today. They’re doing something that’s literally not even possible today, and all you can focus on is the fact that it’s $6 more expensive than Telstra’s cheapest offering?
“We dont even know how much voice only will end up costing yet but I’d be surprised if Telstra were not able to maintain the same price.”
I said I look forward to what other ISP’s will provide, but until that $24 minimum price for a 12/1 Mbps data port from NBN is adjusted downward there is not much anyone can do including Telstra, it is still $24 for Telstra.
You keep going around and around in circles here Alain. It’s getting tiresome. We have given you multiple ideas for what might happen, and then said we need to wait and see how things play out, and you’re still going on about this.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again, stop bitching. And as it has been said, if you want to bitch, we are not the people to bitch to. Maybe you should send an email to NBNCo asking how they are going to fulfil the promise made by the government to make voice services no more expensive than they are now when their is $24 wholesale price?
Or maybe you should just wait like us. Is that so hard?
So what about people in new housing estates? They will not have access to copper and cheaper voice only plans, they will have no choice but fibre and that will be happening regardless of the NBN. What is your solution for this or are you suggesting they should not have a choice?
I don’t understand where you are going with that, FTTH greenfield estates have been around for years, what voice only plans or voice + data plan is available to residents depends on the estate provider and resell from ISP’s, I don’t know what any of that has to do with I said at all.
It has plenty to do with what you said, these people will not have a choice. Do you think that is OK?
Don’t these people have a right to cheaper plans too?
You say voice only plans but can they get the $22.95 voice only deal that people with a choice of copper can get? I mean the situation you are describing here sounds very much like the NBN after the copper network has been decommissioned.
Attention thread: Pepe has been banned and I have deleted a bunch of his posts. Remember: Delimiter’s comment policy is that comments must be polite.
People are turnning away from home line phones. i have and will use my mobile as my home and on the run phone for life. i have used it this way for 4 years now. who needs fixed home phones with the price of mobile deals that cheap… And currently I’m paying $80 per month for 25gig on wireless because no government has done a thing about pair gain systems. I’d pay that $100 per month without a shadow of a doubt.
They have had the argument of speed it wont be 100mbps. new under water lines getting placed down. prices was next after internod. more to come dont forget. the coalition would do this nbn if it had 1 trillion in the bank. but would rather spend billions on something that does nothing at all.
I’d rather have a large monthly quota and a slightly slower (ADSL2) connection.
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