news NBN Co has revealed that it plans to launch super-fast HFC broadband services next year using DOCSIS 3.1 – a new technology that can produce up to 10 Gbps symmetrical data speeds over the hybrid fibre-copper cable networks.
The announcement was prompted by the publication of a new report predicting that upgraded HFC networks will play a “key role” in delivering ultra-fast broadband around the world by 2020.
Dennis Steiger, NBN Co’s CTO, said the firm plans to launch its new DOCSIS 3.1 services “in the second half of next year” and that, at launch, the upgraded HFC technology will offer “the same wholesale speed tiers that FTTP and FTTN do currently”.
Additionally, he indicated, NBN Co is also keeping a close eye on other emerging technologies such as Full Duplex DOCSIS because of the “extraordinary potential” offered.
Steiger went on to say that the advances being made in HFC technology in recent years mean networks that 10 years ago were “struggling to make double-digit Megabit speeds” are already approaching speeds of “up to 1Gbps and beyond”.
And the technology still has plenty of scope for improvement according to the new report, which was commissioned by NBN Co and researched and published by independent analyst and consultancy firm Ovum.
The research predicts that the global HFC broadband market will continue to expand over the next five years, despite growing competition from fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP) networks in many countries.
Ovum said it expects that the total number of global broadband subscribers to HFC networks will increase by 23% from 152 million last year to 187 million in 2020.
Furthermore, it said HFC will remain a “market-leading technology” in blue-chip markets, such as the US, where Ovum predicts the tech will be providing broadband to over 70 million subscriber households by 2020.
“Network performance by HFC now rivals fibre-based platforms, with HFC operators enabling substantial increases in download speeds over the last five years,” the report said.
In the US, it added, average HFC download speeds have improved from 12Mbps to 40Mbps, and similar improvement has been reported in the UK, with cable speeds averaging over 70Mbps in November 2015.
And HFC cable broadband is likely to continue to evolve, as full duplex and other techniques reach market.
Full duplex will enable “dramatic improvements” in upstream capacity and speeds, “ultimately allowing Gigabit speeds both downstream and upstream,” the report said.
Steiger concluded by saying that, due to improvements in HFC tech, “we have an exhilarating journey ahead of us where we expect to have the ability to deliver speeds that were simply unimaginable a decade ago”.
Image credit: NBN company
Good to see the NBN Co recouping the benefit of re using infrastructure, it is always going to be the most cost effective and fastest way of getting high speed fixed line BB to the high density inner suburbs of our capital cities.
No. It’s only the most cost effective way IN TERMS OF CAPTIAL EXPENDITURE to get high speed fixed line Broadband to PROPERTIES THAT ARE ALREADY CONNECTED to HFC networks WHERE the provider OWNS the network.
There it nothing intrinsic to HFC that makes it cheaper to deploy to MDUs. In fact, it’s important to note that to get the performance you want to deliver to high density MDUs like apartment building you will often need to install fibre into the basement. So a FTTB or FTTP solution (depending on the average length, shielding quality, and thickness of Cat3 cabling in the MDU) may be more cost effective to achieve a given performance if Coax isn’t already installed throughout the building.
The definition I gave is important, because a very high percentage of MDUs are NOT connected to HFC networks in Australia at the moment.
Given this at the numbers in Australia you have to ask if the maintenance and training complexes that come from having a mix of technologies instead of a unified common Infrastructure is cost effective in the long term.
And that is argument that you constantly ignore. Stop looking at the CAPEX in isolation. Given $10,000 would you buy a V8 with hard to find parts or a fuel efficient 2.0L turbo-diesel which almost everyone has? They both cost about the same, but one will be significantly cheaper to run in the long term.
I’m not saying the difference is as marked as the example, however it is important to look at the options. And the famous report that justifies MTM didn’t do that very well.
It might be too late now through.
+1 to what NightKhaos said.
-1000 to ‘Reality’
As I said below, there is very little detail on this with regards MDU’s. So why is that?
Something I learned a long time ago is that if something isnt mentioned in the specs, its because they dont want to bring attention to it, and at every stage of the HFC discussion, MDU’s have been very conveniently brushed over.
The main one for me is what adding 30% to HFC will do for contention. Or are those MDU’s going to be special, and get their own FttB’s in every instance? 2 properties on a block is an MDU, plenty wont be viable for FttB, so in the HFC areas are going to be causing issues.
I wasn’t aware HFC was the primary infrastructure choice for mult dwelling units, FTTB is.
2 properties on a block is an MDU, plenty wont be viable for FttB,
Why?
“Why?”
Fuck you’re a dumbarse
Seriously? You have to ask that question?
In HFC areas, what are the options for MDU’s? What would you do for a block of 4 townhouses, where there is HFC going past them that they cant access?
So they go onto FTTB, and….?
Did you even read my post? Viability of FTTB depends on the quality of Cat3 in the building. If it isn’t viable you have to run new cables. If you need to do that you might as well run fibre, that is FTTP.
Which version of FTTB are you rabbiting on about, Coalition or the old Labor NBN model, and what has Cat 3 cable got to do with it anyway?
The technology, not the policy.
Cat3 cables are the UTP cables typically used for phone, and by extension DSL, transmission.
How do you think you’re qualified to talk about telecommunications policy if you don’t understand basic terminology like cable categories?
@alain – so for a decade you’ve sided with the cheaper option, because its cheaper, and now you want to run nodes out to service 2 to 4 properties.
Amazing, truly amazing how far you’re brain seems to go to justify your stance.
You cant see how expensive it will be to service those rogue properties with FttB if HFC isnt an option? Its not going to be an entire street, its isolated blocks on a street. Each of which will need their own fibre line back to the exchange, and their own dedicated node.
If HFC is an option, its an instant increase in contention as the customer saturation increases.
My god you are stupid. Seriously, seek help for whatever’s wrong with you. It cant be healthy.
NightKhaos,
FTTB as in the Coalition version uses the existing copper runs in MDU’s connected to the FTTB cabinet usually in the basement of the MDU, once again what has Cat 3 cable got to do with it?
I literally just explained it’s relevance. Do you want me to quote myself back to you, or are you capable of scrolling up?
Why did you just bold copper by the way? That’s a metal, a good one. But you don’t just transmit of a lump of pure copper do you? You use a particular grade and specification of cable.
You know, you really need to stop commenting on technology policy if you don’t understand the technology the policy is about.
I will bold copper again for you.
due to the fact that the company has historically found it extremely difficult and time-consuming to get fibre directly in to each apartment. Leveraging the existing in-building copper cables is a logical solution to quickly dealing with those situations.
https://delimiter.com.au/2014/04/08/telstranbn-fttb-trial-hits-90mbps/
You know, you really need to stop commenting on technology policy if you don’t understand the technology the policy is about.
ROFL
“ROFL”
Yes, we are…
You asked:
“FTTB as in the Coalition version uses the existing copper runs in MDU’s connected to the FTTB cabinet usually in the basement of the MDU, once again what has Cat 3 cable got to do with it?”
Directly after he explained to you:
“Cat3 cables are the UTP cables typically used for phone, and by extension DSL, transmission.”
So in essence, you are saying that they are using copper, so what has copper got to do with it?
As Chas pointed out less elegantly, Cat3 cables ARE A GRADE OF COPPER TELECOMMUNICATIONS CABLING.
So what does the quality of the building Cat3 cabling have to do with the ability to provide FTTB? EVERYTHING.
You can only deploy HFC to MDU cost effectively if HFC has already been deployed, similarily you can only deploy FTTB if the copper UTP (Cat3) cabling installed into the building is of sufficient quality and other characteristics like average run length.
If both situations fail, it’s a crap shot. Do you deploy Coax (which is also copper I might add, but since you clearly don’t know anything about cabling specifications, then I won’t muddy the waters other than to point it out) into the building for HFC, do you deploy Cat3 or Cat6 in the building to provide a FTTB solution, or do you bite the bullet and go the whole hog FTTP.
With large MDUs like apartment blocks and large complexes you’re going to need to install a large amount of equipment into the basement and run a 10GBe or 1Gbe link to the building for all 3 options, so you might as well go FTTP, unless something (usually bend radius) makes it impractical.
This is all very basic stuff. Something someone seriously discussing a telecommunications policy should know and understand.
The fact you don’t and you expect us to take to seriously is deeply concerning to me. What’s your horse in this race?
A donkey.
alain’s top 5 (like a book)…
1. Makes uneducated, politically subservient comment.
2. Gets easily and typically corrected by people with factual knowledge.
3. Following humiliation, rather than growing some and thanking those for educating him, he tries to divert by asking moronic, belligerent questions.
4. When ridiculed and further humiliated for said questions, continues with argumentative, childish stupidity…
Now we await 5…. the poor me/personal attack sob
GOLD
NightKhaos,
So what does the quality of the building Cat3 cabling have to do with the ability to provide FTTB? EVERYTHING.
What makes you think all MDU’s in Australia have each unit hard wired with Cat 3 cable the original purpose of which is to provide them with a fixed line PSTN voice service?
The USO. You are aware of that policy? The policy that Telstra was required, by law, to provide every dwelling in Australia access to a phone service.
And not all, the majority. Telstra’s rules regarding the USO were relaxed in recent years leading to them offering alternatives, like FTTP, FTTB, and mobile only in some places. The “mobile only” buildings will obviously be in the “crap shot” pool I mentioned by default if they don’t have HFC.
Not to mention some MDUs which already have had FTTP deployed via NBNCo. But they’ve already in the NBN, so… Yay!
Are you really this badly informed? I’ve been trying to avoid the insults, but you’re an idiot who really needs to stop embarassing themselves commenting on something you clearly don’t understand.
I didn’t ask you a question about the USO, I am well aware what the USO is about.
So there is no two wire pair copper runs like there are in single residences in MDU’s in Australia, they are all Cat 3 cable?
@Reality
Pretty much all “Copper” telecommunication runs done by telstra (ARE/Have always been) run using Cat 3.
Unless its a business premises using specific wideband services that required a link to the nearest fibre.
Really? Yes, they are Cat3 or similar grade UTP cabling. Cat3 has the advantage that it has 2 pairs in the cable for easy repairs. So MDUs might use lower quality cables, which may also be viable depending on the DSL technology utilised, and some use Cat5(e) or Cat6, which can allow for FTTB using Ethernet rather than DSL.
The fact I’m explaining this to you shows just how much out of your depth you are. Below you called someone a liar for indicating that HFC is 12 times more expensive to maintain that FTTP. Yet the report this was gotten from is well known in the industry. It’s why providers like Comcast are over building HFC with FTTP selectively and over time.
But please, continue to make a fool out of yourselves. A few people no doubt find it entertaining. I on the other hand find it sickening. You, and people like you, are why this country is going to waste 10 of billions of dollars on political football rather than fix telecommunications in Australia.
@Reality
Cat = Category
UTP = unshielded Twisted Pair
CAT3 is Category 3 Unshielded Twisted pair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_pair
” I am well aware what the USO is about”
Apparently not…
“So there is no two wire pair copper runs like there are in single residences in MDU’s in Australia, they are all Cat 3 cable?”
Facepalm…
Guys, reality is LITERALLY trolling you.
we really just have to ignore him when he is doing this, or saying one of the many comments he repeats ad nauseum.
We should only reply to his comments when he actually adds new information to the debate, not repeat the same literal troll comments.
Pro tip: when he pretends not to know what copper cable and cat3 have to do with each other, THAT is when you know he is actually trying to cause you to yell at him. He gets his rocks off to watching you guys rage.
This site really needs more moderation, not to delete all their comments, they genuinely do call some stuff out, at least they have the past… But this whole thread was just the reality trolls you thread.
“Guys, reality is LITERALLY trolling you”
Yup…but its not all bad, some of NightKhoas’ posts have been excellent, even though they were inspired by alternate.
No I don’t believe he is “just” trolling, he’s (sneakily) learning too, to aid his ideological crusade. Bear with me now…
Why?
He didn’t know anything about Cat3, now he has learnt lots from his foes.
So, in a few weeks/months time, when a pro FTTP person comes here innocently to make a comment and mentions Cat3 but makes a mistake, he can then jump on them, with the info he just learnt, to again aid his crusade.
I kid you not… seen him do it at least 3 times. First time was when he argued tooth and nail with me that the RFPs was for FTTN only and I said no it wasn’t it was for FTTN or FTTP. It went to and fro for about 10 correspondences, until I put him out of his misery and posted the link to the actual announcement which clearly stated FTTN or FTTP…
He of course disappeared immediately… not man enough to admit he was wrong or heaven forbid apologise/thank his teacher. But many weeks later he jumped onto a poster who questioned him about the RFP’s by basically calling the new guy a fool for not even knowing the RFP was for FTTN and FTTP…
You see, we are not dealing with someone here for mutual beneficial, friendly correspondence or logic, we are dealing with one submersed completely in dumb ideology and a concept where if he wins one argument, he feels he will have achieved for the crusade.
This is why I treat him with the complete disrespect and disdain he so rightly deserves, by (easily) picking what he says now, to pieces, by posting his previous comments – which inevitably contradict each other, due to who was and who is governing!
Agreed NightKhaos has added a lot.
They won’t run FTTP to MDUs. Period. And it is for political reasons.
And for other areas where HFC infill would be required in large numbers (several of Adelaide’s northern suburbs) the plan already shows that they *will* be running fibre all the way out there, but then connecting it to a node so that no-one gets anything better than FTTN.
See Gulfview Heights on the roll-out spreadsheet as an example.
They won’t run FTTP to MDUs. Period. And it is for political reasons.
Well that’s two political reasons then, Labor (NBN 2016) were not going to run FTTP to MDU’s either.
In the areas that have FttP now, MDU’s got FttP. Smaller ones at least, no idea what happened to the bigger ones.
as it happens, Gav, i happen to be one of those in this specific circumstance. 4 unit mdu block with FTTP to each residence. so reality is again talking out of hindquarters wrt labor FTTP mdu policy.
but then, whos shocked?
So do I nonny. 8 unit block here, the external boxes were installed as a matter of course as they went along. On the wrong side of the building of course…
I cant remember the limit, but the smaller ones were like that. Not a big enough trouble, so they just got it. I thought it was 12, but a bigger block up the road (around double that) got FttP as well.
so reality is again talking out of hindquarters wrt labor FTTP mdu policy.
I was referring to Labor 2016 policy, in case you hadn’t noticed Labor is not in Government.
So it was never policy, only a proposal. The last Labor policy was in 2013, which had small MDU’s get FttP. As a beneficiary of that policy, I know for a fact it happened.
As usual, its very vague on detail. What exactly will be needed to get the existing HFC up to DOCSIS 3.1 capability?
Is it simply a change of technology at the exchange? A new modem for every user? New nodes? More nodes? New cable? There is very little detail that I can see about WHAT is needed.
Theres also very little detail on what adding MDU’s into the mix is expected to do to contention. What is it? 30% of premises passed by HFC cant access it? When they can, thats a lot of people to add in at once.
Good to see the typical Liberal practice of ‘no detail needed’ with their plans.
“a change of technology at the exchange?”
Yes.
“A new modem for every user?”
Yes.
“New nodes?”
AFAIK, Yes.
“More nodes?”
I believe the answer here is also “Yes” if you want reasonable contention ratios.
“New cable?”
I know I saw a comment a few years back suggesting the answer to this one is “yes” as well (due to Telstra & Optus ‘minimising costs’ when rolling out HFC 20 years ago), but I don’t know for sure.
There was a reason I chose those questions :)
DOCSIS 3.1 can deliver whatever it wants to, but there are considerable changes needed before that can happen.
Details Turnbull and NBN Co have been very vague on since announcing the idea of recycling HFC.
“most cost effective”
Pity about the extra billion we had to gift to Telstra for it though huh? Because it wasn’t fit for purpose. And let’s not forget the higher maintenance costs, paid for by the taxpayer as well. Not that cost effective.
“inner suburbs of our capital cities”
You mean … some capital cities right?
Rubbish Reality. It is going to cost us millions more in the long term upgrading and maintaining this legacy infrastructure. The whole word is moving towards FTTP.
“It is going to cost us billions more in the long term upgrading and maintaining this legacy infrastructure.” — FTFY
Upgrading HFC from DOCSIS 3.1 and the speed enhancements beyond 3.1 is in the way distant future.
Let’s see what Labor might do 2019-2022.
:)
I dont have to care. I dont argue your narrow minded views for any personal gain, I argue them because you are wrong.
You still havent given any details on how DOCSIS is going to deliver its speed benefits, just parroted the generic stuff in the story.
What changes are needed to the existing HFC network to implement DOCSIS 3.1? Answer that one question.
GG,
Send a email to the NBN they are the ones promising it for 2017, I assume it will be very similar to the Comcast USA HFC 3.1 upgrade.
Oh and Denmark as well.
https://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/2016/01/28/huawei-to-upgrade-tdcs-hfc-network-to-1gbps/
“I assume it will be very similar to the Comcast USA HFC 3.1 upgrade”
You mean the one they are limiting to Atlanta and going with FTTP everywhere else?
It’s not being limited to Atlanta, that’s only the first Comcast trial area, that’s like saying the NBN HFC in Australia is limited to Redcliffe in QLD because it was the first trial site.
“that’s only the first Comcast trial area”
Yup, they have 3 other trials planned…but no commercial rollout that I have heard of. In the meantime, they have already rolled FTTP to 18 million homes and are rapidly expanding their Gigabit Pro commercial program…with full expansion going into Atlanta, California, Chattanooga, Chicago, Colorado, Houston, Knoxville, Nashville, Northwest Indiana, Portland, Twin Cities, Utah, and Washington State.
BTW, if the trials of DOCSIS 3.1 don’t go extremely well, they will probably scrap it. As they themselves have already published, HFC is vastly more expensive to run and maintain than FTTP.
So Comcast are trialing DOCSIS 3.1 the purpose of which is not to deploy it to all their cable customers, which is the majority of their client base.
I see the Chas logic now, why bother just pull HFC down and overbuild it with FTTP.
I am not aware the trials are failing.
“Send a [sic] email to the NBN they are the ones promising it for 2017”
And they can tell us, that like the rest of the MTM FRAUDBAND fuck up (2016 for all = 2020, umm, maybe)…. that, 2017 actually means 2021?
And anyway HFC is failed and ADSL is and will be good enough for everyone, didn’t you say previously in your desperate crusade to bag all things FTTP (and dare I say the other L party)?
Yes you did… how deliciously humiliating for you, again, nay still.
You’re welcome
“So Comcast are trialing DOCSIS 3.1 the purpose of which is not to deploy it to all their cable customers”
Are you familiar with the term “trial”? Do you understand that it is meant to discover something? If the trials are not exemplary, why would they keep spending that huge amount of Opex?
You see Alternate, in this world we make decisions AFTER the trials, not before.
“Let’s see what Labor might do 2019-2022.”
Well, we already saw them prepare Australia for far cheaper, more efficient, infinitely faster technology from 2010 onwards. But unfortunately the majority of Australians are idiots who have been brainwashed to think deficit is bad for the economy, since WWII.
“So Comcast are trialing DOCSIS 3.1 the purpose of which is not to deploy it to all their cable customers, which is the majority of their client base.”
See now, that’s real the purpose of using the word trial – hint : it doesn’t mean ‘we are rolling out this technology in small doses now in order to roll it out everywhere else before we even have a clue if it’s viable’.
“I assume it will be very similar to the Comcast USA HFC 3.1 upgrade”
LMAO
Comcast’s DOCSIS3.1 trial is limited to Atlanta & Nashville
Meanwhile Comcast has already deployed 2Gbps (Synchronous) Gigabit Pro in Atlanta metro area & Nashville.
Comcast has been delivering multi-gig (up to 10 Gbps) Ethernet service to businesses since 2010. The company currently serves more than 1.5 million businesses nationwide.
Meanwhile Comcasts’s competitors AT&T Gigapower already serves Atlanta, Chicago, Nashville, Miami and Detriot.
Reality (or should we call you Richard) …….. Do you only have one VHS cassette in your video library?
Suck it up chimp!
It’s not just Comcast upgrading their networks to DOCSIS 3.1.
That cable footprint is certainly huge. In Europe alone, Liberty Global now passes nearly 49 million homes in 12 countries. In those 12 markets, it has 16.4 million broadband
….
Liberty Global thus confirmed that like such major North American MSOs as Comcast Corp. (Nasdaq: CMCSA, CMCSK), Cox Communications Inc. and Videotron Ltd. , it plans to get out the gate fast with DCOSIS 3.1. And they’re not alone.
In a recent survey of cable providers across the globe, IHS Inc. found that, on average, providers expect to pass about a third of their residential broadband subscribers with DOCSIS 3.1-enabled headends by April 2017.
…..
In the UK.
Virgin Media Inc. (Nasdaq: VMED) unit intends to wire up to 4 million homes and businesses and extend its hybrid fiber-coax (HFC) footprint to nearly 17 million premises, or two-thirds of the nation, by 2020
http://www.lightreading.com/cable/docsis/liberty-global-preps-for-docsis-31/d/d-id/717498
@REALITY (Richard)
“It’s not just Comcast upgrading their networks to DOCSIS 3.1.”
Bullshit
COMCAST ARE TRIALING DOCSIS 3.1 in Atlanta and Nashville!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comcast have upgraded their networks to 18 million premises, including 1.5 million customers in Atlanta, with Gigabit Pro which is a symmetrical 2Gbps Fiber To The Home solution.
It was announced April 2015. 18 million is a sizable proportion of Comcast broadband customers. Comcast has an estimated 22 million Internet customers!
Comcast has been doubling the capacity of its network at least every 18 months with the introduction of Gigabit Pro
In April 2015, Comcast announced a technology partnership with the Atlanta Braves to deliver multi-gigabit speeds to residences and businesses throughout the team’s new mixed use and stadium development project.
You’ve been informed of this before dimwit!!
Rizz,
You ignored all the other companies other than Comcast that are upgrading to DOCSIS 3.1, and even extending the HFC rollout.
But then you would, followed by the usual heavy dose of abuse as a substitute for intelligent thought, keep the sock puppet ‘I’m in San Francisco’ routine going it’s hilarious.
@ alain…
“You ignored all the other companies other than Comcast that are upgrading to DOCSIS 3.1, and even extending the HFC rollout.”
But why would any one anywhere wish to upgrade, let alone extend HFC which you yourself referred to as failed HFC
And why would you now boast about speeds of DOCSIS 3.1, when you said “ADSL speeds are good enough for everyone now and into the future only a few years ago?
“Before roads there were no roads”
You’re welcome.
“Virgin Media Inc. (Nasdaq: VMED) unit intends to wire up to 4 million homes and businesses and extend its hybrid fiber-coax”
“Liberty Global ”
Same company…the Virgin Media HFC in the UK is owned by Liberty Global, and they are trying to gain marketshare by undercutting the competition’s pricing. Most financial analysts consider it a desperate stunt…please note that the announcements were a year ago, but no major advancement has yet occurred…
@ alain (Reality)
What on “failed HFC using speeds we don’t need”?
So YOU told us when FTTP was being rolled out.
Didn’t you?
Care to try to explain?
Or would you rather just disappear “again”? Either would be equally humorous.
You’re welcome
*crickets again*
PRICELESS
“Good to see the NBN Co recouping the benefit of re using infrastructure, it is always going to be the most cost effective and fastest way of getting high speed fixed line BB to the high density inner suburbs of our capital cities.”
How’s that $29.5B plan coming along, then? Not tripled in estimated cost yet?
Good luck to the current Lib. nbn company finding any businesses looking to add money to the 29 Billion,(not a penny more) locked in by the Coalition,(a shit tonne wasted by them & Libshills in nbn already) when mtm is expected to produce under 3% ROI …ROFL XD
My bank will give me, as an individual, over 3%, for just a few thousand. This being a safe place for my money & locked down interest rate too.
Investors,(businesses or individuals) looking to invest in nbn at under 3% ROI is hilarious XD
Later, RIPP :)
The external borrowing will not be dependent on the NBN ROI, the loans will be indemnified by the Australian Government at a agreed interest rate and pay back period, it is not dependent on the NBN being cash flow positive.
The NBN ROI will only be significant if the NBN is privatised and I don’t see that passing this Senate anytime soon, assuming legislation is ever drawn up.
@Reality,
So the Coalition, you’re saying, are going to increase the current deficit by getting a loan to pay for the finishing off of the mtm nbn?
Then hope that their mtm nbn roi is higher than the loan interest rate?
Later, RIPP :)
The NBN ROI is irrelevant, the loans will be paid back under the agreed terms irrespective of NBN revenue.
Labor also would have required external borrowings to continue, even more so because they were adding an additional 2M residences to the high CPP brownfields FTTP.
So what you are saying it’s going to cost more than the cap $29B taxpayer money when NBN won’t be able to make a roi to pay back investment
Correction: It should be irrelevant. But it very much isn’t, because both parties are deluded enough to think that the NBN can service it’s own debts.
The fact that both policies have this requirement makes the ROI extremely relevant. It needs to make at least 4% over the next 30 years to be a policy “success”.
And bad technology decisions and allowing Infrastructure competition to happen all threaten that ROI. As do bad pricing decisions.
“Labor also would have required external borrowings to continue, even more so because they were adding an additional 2M residences to the high CPP brownfields FTTP”
Nope…the part you missed was that the FTTP has a 60+ year lifespan, FTTN and HFC are only a small fraction of that. So the period in which the payback must occur (with interest) on FTTP is FARRRRRRR longer and hence far more attainable.
“the loans will be paid back under the agreed terms irrespective of NBN revenue.”
That would be a tragedy.
Where does this leave those stuck with FTTN though? I thought 25mbit was good enough for the future? We really do have a digital divide now. Those with the ability to get 1 gigabit or more and everyone else.
It leaves them stuck in 2005.
Which is interesting because FTTN was only commercially released in September 2015.
Seriously? What about every other country thats been rolling it out for a decade? Are you going out of your way today to be this stupid?
*edit* cancel that, its a natural thing for you *edit*
FttN is a decade old technology. It wasnt released commercially in 2015, it was released around 2005 in other markets. Amusingly, its only now that its an option here, which I assume is your point, for whatever reason.
Those getting FttN now are stuck with something that Telstra was considering in 2005. Good luck to them, they’ll need it.
Your concern on behalf of all FTTN users is touching but not substantiated by any facts.
Those getting FttN now are stuck with something that Telstra was considering in 2005.
Interestingly around 2005 is when the first FTTP was rolled out in Australia in the Telstra Smart Communities program, does that make FTTP ‘old’ as well?
:)
Yes, it does. Its established technology, and one that can easily and readily be upgraded, simply by changing boxes full of magic at the exchange. FttN cant.
Despite the number of times thats been stated, you still cant understand?
Seriously, seek help. I worry for your wellbeing.
@ alain
“Which is interesting because FTTN was only commercially released in September 2015.”
Thanks again for demonstrating the ineptness, mismanagement and folly of MTM… doing SFA for 2 years.
LOL
MtM is not just FTTN, that’s why it is called MtM.
ROFLMFAO… “you said FTTN”…
So you have finally found someone as dim as yourself to argue with… yes, “yourself”…
GOLD.
Perhaps just another in that loooong list of imbecilic contradictions of yours…
And thanks too for also just admitting it was the previous NBNs plan and not the current mobs FTTN, which was rolled out between Sept 2013 – Sept 2015, while the “ready to roll out, fully costed, FTTN was on ice”, lol.
Now put the idiot detour signs away, replace the goalposts and then limp off tail between legs… as usual.
You’re welcome.
“Which is interesting because FTTN was only commercially released in September 2015.”
Yuk. These nauseating comments are the enemy of this country.
Stuck in 1998, where Telecom decided FTTN was not feasible and favoured a FTTP rollout in ~2005.
Stuck in 1998, until 2030 minimum.
Telstra favoured FTTP only in greenfield estates, just like the NBN today.
Nope Telstra favoured ADSL only in greenfields estates not just like the NBN today
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/29/telstra-not-forced-to-deploy-brand-new-copper-says-fifield/
I was referring to the Hotcakes reference about Telstra in 2005 but you know that.
Lol Telstra was still rolling out copper then too
“Telstra favoured FTTP only in greenfield estates, just like the NBN today.”
Except Telstra favours Cat3 copper in greenfield estates today.
Nope. In 2005 the USO wasn’t relaxed then and they had to get explicit exemptions to depoly non standard PSTN solutions.
Often in HFC or FTTP deployment areas they also had to depoly Cat3 to meet regulatory requirements and provide phone service.
This lead to the now infamous “RIM” situation with ADSL Broadband. Especially in MDUs whom refused, due to short sighted body corporates, allow HFC or FTTP to be installed.
Pease don’t rewrite history to meet your own ends Reality.
> Where does this leave those stuck with FTTN though?
Hopefully with a Fibre on Demand option. The reality is that zero RSPs currently selling services faster than 100Mbps that under the Labor NBN pricing model anyone able to afford a 1Gbps plan could easily pay for FoD.
Mathew
Why should people pay for FOD when others are getting a free upgrade
So basically if I get a FTTN lottery of less than 30Mbps, and my consumption habits and career require me to have at least a 60Mbps service to be content, I have to fork out potentially tens of thousands of dollars to get FoD, or buy another house potentially costing even more, because one guy on the Internet is so obsessed with 1Gbps he can’t see the forest for the trees?
I thought Reality was bad, but you’re simply deluded and full of terrible logic.
Nailed it.
Pfshaw. Nailed it? He stated that Matthew employed logic, regardless of its quality. There’s literally zero logic in reposting about speeds in every unrelated topic.
Just FYI, if Gigabit NBN services were available at any of our offices, we’d be switching over to that pretty quickly.
We currently spend millions of dollars a month on MPLS and other data services, and none of that goes to NBN because they’ve decided to focus on the hard to build parts first, rather than the much more profitable CBDs and commercial areas.
Our data needs are expanding so fast, a year ago we had close to a dozen sites on 10Mbps services, and since then we’ve been forced to spend a fortune upgrading them to 100Mbps and 1Gbps. Our more major sites were upgraded to 100Mbps and 1Gbps a while ago, but their data needs are also increasing. All these upgrades have increased our spend on data comms by hundreds of thousands a month. If the NBN were in, those ongoing costs would drop dramatically.
In fact, less than a year after that upgrade, we’re looking at building out our own MPLS network to deliver gigabit and 10 gigabit speeds to over a dozen sites around the country. Obviously we’re not a telco, so we’re forced to lease dark fibre to do it, which is going to cost us even more millions. If we were passed by the NBN, that cost would be much smaller, and a huge portion of it would go to the NBN rather than Telstra and the other telcos (although as retailers, they’ll still get their cut on the NBN).
And that’s just data services, not Internet. We installed two 100Mbps Internet services at a site less than a year ago, and they were soon upgraded to 200Mbps, and now 300Mbps.
We’re not a huge company either, we’ve only got around 20 sites in total, but NBN Co get none of our multi-million dollar monthly telecoms spend – and it’s the same for hundreds if not thousands of other companies across the country.
So while consumer data growth may appear to be relatively slow, the opposite is definitely true for businesses. But because they’ve chosen to ignore businesses in their rollout, there’s no demand for FoD or gigabit speeds, and so there’s no demand for anything better than <30Mbps FTTN or congested HFC.
NBN Co are deliberately ignoring millions, if not billions of dollars in revenue by not building out the CBDs and commercial areas. They're ignoring the demands of businesses, and it's heavily skewing their perception of market demand. But that's ok, because it's playing perfectly into the coalition's narrative that the demand for high-speed infrastructure isn't there, and it's not worth spending a little extra future-proofing this country.
“Hopefully with a Fibre on Demand option”
You are aware that average cost for FoD is over $12k, and in some cases closer to $50,000? There is a reason that only 3 people have gone ahead with it, even though the program has been in existence for over a year.
FoD cannot connect to the node, it must connect to the nearest fibre multiplex (usually the exchange).
This is Matthew, complains about the pricing model making it cost 100$ per month for 100 megabits, and that this is providing Internet “for the 1%”, then tells everyone that we should all get an egalitarian 25 megabits from vdsl, and if we want more should spend 15k on fibre on demand.
Because that isn’t reserving the highest speed Internet for the 1% now is it?
Don’t you have to pay them something like $600 upfront to even consider offering FoD to you and they can turn around and just say no! (that isn’t deducted of off the final quote either).
“Don’t you have to pay them something like $600 upfront to even consider offering FoD to you”
Yup…you must make 2 x $300 payments to have them “analyze” the connection.
Stops the tyre kickers though.
:)
“Stops the tyre kickers though”
Uh-huh…they are stopping everyone. Only 3 people in over a year, what does that tell you? The price of FoD is artificially high so they don’t have to go through with it…
There was a poster on Whirlpool that gave the go-ahead to a $xx,000 FoD estimate (he could not reveal the exact price as they make them sign a confidentiality agreement before giving them the cost). After he agreed to their exorbitant estimate, they changed their mind and doubled it…they raised it until he couldn’t accept the cost anymore (about 3 times that of TPG FTTP).
That keeps EVERYONE out…
Indeed Chas. Clearly it was designed that way. Coalition clowns couldn’t take any chances as their MTM clusterfuck plan already looks dubious enough. Same reason there wont be any significant FttDp from GimpCo.
FTTdp is more likely under the Coalition than Labor.
The technology road map being relied upon by the company rolling out Australia’s National Broadband Network (NBN) will see the fibre-to-the-node (FttN) rollout eventually replaced by fibre to the distribution point (FttDP), along with a number of other technology upgrades to increase speeds.
“So GPON becomes 10-GPON, FttN becomes fibre to the distribution point, DOCSIS 3.1 is on the road map in order to produce 10Gbps services.”
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nbn-technology-road-map-will-see-fttn-shift-to-fttdp/
“FTTdp is more likely under the Coalition than Labor.”
Thanks for the clear admission that even the luddites rolling out FTTN/FRAUDBAND, know that FTTN/FRAUDBAND just isn’t good enough.
You’re welcome
Your comment is invalid.
“FttN becomes fibre to the distribution point”
If that is true, then those poor bastards…while the rest of the country is on 1-10Gbps, they will be stuck on 100Mbps.
The ‘poor bastards’ don’t think they are poor bastards just because you self appoint yourself under the arrogant total BS belief you can speak on their behalf on what they might think.
Ummm, so Chas can’t comment on what they MIGHT THINK?
But you can comment on what they SHOULD HAVE?
Re:
1. Type of connections HFC or FTTN.
2. Max. upto 100Mbps,(likely under 50Mbps for most on FTTN. We don’t yet know how congested the nbn HFC may get).
Reality you are such a hypocrit.
Thanks for the spectacle of total FAIL.
Later, RIPP.
“The ‘poor bastards’ don’t think they are poor bastards”
And the rest of the country isn’t on 1-10 Gbps either…is there no part of this discussion you understand?
But as they say…ignorance is bliss.
I am sure that over the next few years, the average Australian will learn how badly they have been dudded. I find it sad that what isn’t even fit to be broadband in the rest of the world, the current NBN Co management and Government are calling “Super Fast Broadband”
“Hopefully with a Fibre on Demand option.”
*Hopefully* with an option that costs up to $20,000 and that’s IF the $600 quote doesn’t turn up nothing?
“The reality is that zero RSPs currently selling services faster than 100Mbps that under the Labor NBN pricing model anyone able to afford a 1Gbps plan could easily pay for FoD.””
Of course given that that speed was never supposed to account for 1% until 2026…
Your comment is invalid.
Yes GimpCo, 1gbps is important but only when it’s not FttP. If it’s FttP no one needs those speeds. 25mbps is enough. Still typical and what we’ve come to expect from this disastrous clusterfuck policy, coalition clowns notorious for wasting time & money so yet more is wasted trying to squeeze what they can from HFC when FttP would have done it with greater efficiency and consistency.
This! The Hypocrisy from LibTroll_nbn is staggering!!!
Cumberland,
If it’s FttP no one needs those speeds.
You are correct, a small minority on FTTP use 100/40, the vast majority are on 25/5 or slower.
Your comment is invalid.
One day you might learn about this thing called reality and realise that Labor was never intending to deliver 1Gbps to the masses.
Your comment is invalid.
Exactly. The policy goal was 100Mbps with an emphasis on FUTURE EASE OF UPGRADE.
You’re the only one here obsessed with 1Gbps. I care about getting consistent services to everyone that can be upgraded cheaply, that is the hard policy.
Soft policy, like pricing, subsidies, etc, don’t matter to me because they can be changed with government agendas.
But the hardware that goes in the ground? That can’t be changed on a whim by political will.
“The policy goal was 100Mbps with an emphasis on FUTURE EASE OF UPGRADE”
Nailed it…They were planning (rumour) tests on 10Gbps for 2020, and 1Gbps for general release for that time. That would have put us square on target with the rest of the world…
Love the way the existing speed tier allocation by NBN customers actually using FTTP is ignored, and the subject is swiftly turned to something else.
But then what else can you do, the facts hurt.
Love the way the existing speed teir allocation by NBN customers actually using FTTN is ignored and the subject is swiftly turned to something else
But then what else can you do the facts hurt
JK don’t forget like the $56B… those speeds are UP TO ;)
Reality, you may not be aware of it, but the majority of people don’t know or care what Internet speed they get.
They understand quotas in Australia now because they’ve been stung with over usage fees, but ultimately with the NBN they expect better streaming performance and better page responsiveness. And even on a 25Mbps plain that’s exactly what they get.
It’s only users that want to stream multiple Netflix streams at once, or tech savvy individuals right now that care enough to upgrade their plans to higher speed tiers.
You may think these people a bunch of whiners, “Oh I can’t get 100Mbps at my house, boo hoo”. But actually what they’ve complaining about is the lack of an even playing field. It shouldn’t matter where I live, only what I’m prepared to pay for. Now, yes, it’s fair to say that if you live a 1000 kilometres from the nearest town, that maybe you shouldn’t expect to get the government to pay. Which is why regional Broadband looks different.
But if I live 2 blocks away from you, and you get 100Mbps, why can’t I get it too? That’s a fair question. Because soon they won’t be the only ones asking it. “My mate Joe down the street called his ISP and now he pays $10 extra a month and his son can watch Netflix at the same time he does, but I can’t get that upgrade for some reason.”
When that conversation starts happening, and it will, sooner than you think, then that’s a problem. Especially for a government run company.
Which has nothing to do with what I said, you meandered off as a diversion to ramble on about something else, I was referring to NBN sign up statistics showing which speed tiers FTTP residences choose, the overwhelming majority choose 25/5 or 12/1.
The requirement that we need 100/40 is not supported by the fact that the majority of residences on fixed line NBN have decided they don’t need it.
“I was referring to NBN sign up statistics showing which speed tiers FTTP residences choose”
Which means absolutely nothing…
Unless you can prove what folks will need next week, or can develop a method to do a rollout in a few months that will let them do faster speeds, all that you can show is what they used to want.
Sort of like saying that dialup was good enough for years, so why spend money on changing it…
I don’t have to prove anything about what residences need next week or next month or next year, the simple fact is even though a fixed line NBN residence could get 100/40 the majority 80% as at March this year are on 12/1 and 25/5.
To get the economy ‘back on track’ Chas you need to lobby residents and reverse the mix, we need 80% on 100/40.
:)
“I don’t have to prove anything about what residences need next week or next month or next year”
No, you don’t…but then the point you are trying to make is meaningless without that. The NBN is about our capacity, not what we did last year…
What you are saying is that if we don’t need it today, we will never need it…
Yet 15% on FTTP are choosing 100Mbps while only 7% are able to get get up to 100mbps on FTTN
“Yet 15% on FTTP are choosing 100Mbps while only 7% are able to get get up to 100mbps on FTTN”
Exactly…FTTN has a very limited capability which is already being exceeded.
What part of “most people don’t understand speed tiers” did you not understand.
Okay, let me explain in terms you might understand. In 2005, Telstra starting a multi billion dollar project to upgrade their network from an aging CDMA network into a 3G HSPA+ network known as NextG.
At the time, the most compelling reason to upgrade to 3G for most users was actually the fact you could get something known as “Mobile Broadband”, i.e. use the 3G network to get a small USB device you plugged into your laptop and allowed you to check email while you’re out and about. You could get away from fixed line and “cut the cord” if you wanted too, but the data caps were tiny and expense, so a lot of people didn’t bother.
So when Telstra released NextG, do you think that people were wondering what they were thinking when take up ratios of mobile broadband were tiny? Yeah probably, NextG is only of interest for people with money, and geeks with their Blackberries.
Then within 3 years, the iPhone happened. And suddenly this upgrade made a lot of sense. The thirst for mobile data exploded almost overnight. Fortunately, someone at Telstra had had the foresight to look at early adopters and make a conservative growth prediction. And it paid off for them.
And yes, we could be terribly terribly wrong, the data explosion everyone is predicting that requires 1Gbps and beyond services could never happen.
Which is why the Labour NBN promised 100Mbps, and speed tiers down to a low of 12Mbps. They were being deliberately conservative in uptake, and focusing instead of getting the technology in the ground in an fiscally sustainable (note I didn’t say cheap, I said sustainable) way. So that if the predictions everyone is making don’t happen, at least we have a decent network on a unified technology stack that is cheap to operate.
But if the explosion does happen, we can respond, quickly and efficiently.
Lol
Reality double posts with JasonK
“One day you might learn about this thing called reality and realise that Labor was never intending to deliver 1Gbps to the masses.”
CRAP!
Announced April 2013
NBN Co to launch 1 Gigabit wholesale broadband service in December
http://www.nbnco.com.au/corporate-information/media-centre/media-releases/nbn-gigabit-nation.html
Some retards like to defy the laws of physics and try to change the GPON standard.
GPON technology is quite capable of delivering synchronous gigabit speeds
LMAO!
It was launched, went 2 meters in the air ran out of fuel and the overwhelming majority (80%) signed up for 25/5 or less.
Well troll how many are currently on 12/1 now? Labor was expecting 50% to be on it.
“It was launched, went 2 meters in the air ran out of fuel”
Yes, the Liberals came in to power and now the offering has been neutered, if not eliminated altogether.
@ Chas (& alain)
“What you are saying is that if we don’t need it today, we will never need it…”
This appears to be one of his half constants (as opposed to his complete flip-flops) but typically, a WTF, are you for real or just being an argumentative dick again, position…
Because he told me and HC a few years back that we don’t need FTTP because…
ADSL is good enough for everyone now and into the future.
But then he rabbits on about g.fast, DOCSIS 3.1, etc being great.
So one can again only say WTF in relation to such total lack of conviction and the disingenuousness of each of alain’s comment.
Rizz
You can add Richard to that as well
Indeed JK,
But since Richard isn’t here (unlike Richard and alain who practice lowest of low by mentioning me unfavourably or accusing me of being someone else… when I’m not even involved in a particular thread)… I won’t include him.
Actually the vast majority are on 25/5 or higher. Which is considerable, because the original estimates were factored around only 50%.
“Love the way the existing speed tier allocation by NBN customers actually using FTTP is ignored, and the subject is swiftly turned to something else.”
You mean how there are more customers paying for higher Tiers than forecast?
So? March 2015 19% on 100/40, March 2016 15% on 100/40.
It’s boom time at 25/5 with 47% March 2016 up from 40% in 2015, next highest is 12/1 at 33% in March 2016.
With ROI on FTTP portion of network performing at 11% instead of the projected 7% and all other portions of MTM dragging financials down into the red. Who would have thought that people having greater access to higher Tier plans would boost revenue?!?
Not Reality. Being higher than projections doesn’t mean anything to him!
lol only 15% on 100/40 in 2016, ouch eh, so let’s divert to something else and talk about some off topic BS about ROI.
Lol only 7% on 100Mbps on FTTN in 2016, ouch eh, so let divert to something else. Like out of the 300,000 connected only 36,000 using it ouch eh, lol
@Reality,
It’s yourself & your luddite trolling selves that keep bringing up how cost effective the new mtm is compared to the original 93% FTTP design;
But then you seek to cry, or run away when the rediculously low ROI,(return on investment) in regards to this joke mtm network is mentioned.
You cannot talk about a model being cost effective & a smart decision if you also seek to avoid longterm issues, costs & ROI.
Shit, there’s not even a half decent ROI,(via GDP boost etc.) outside of the mtm network to justify it, in comparison to a 93% FTTP network.
So cry us all a river Reality.. and go get Flooded ..hehe :P
Later, RIPP.
“lol only 15% on 100/40 in 2016, ouch eh, so let’s divert to something else and talk about some off topic BS about ROI.”
Lol 65% (estimated 50%) on 25/5 or higher in 2016, ouch eh, let’s divert by trying to pretend that return on investment is somehow unrelated to the network doing successfully or not.
How about lay down the means for people to CHOOSE what speeds they need.
FTTP will provide for light users, heavy users, and very heavy end users (businesses).
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755695
With MTM, we do not get much of a CHOICE.
We MAY get a speed we sign up for (else we have to resort to disappointment).
Those who are light users will obviously see very little difference.
Heavy users will be affected.
Very Heavy users (Businesses) will need (continue needing) fibre. Whether NBN FTTP/Expensive wideband by Telstra.
If a business wants fibre they can get it now, there are many commercial fibre providers outside the NBN.
If what you are saying is that businesses don’t want to pay for it and expect the taxpayer funded NBN residential service to provide them with FTTP, that’s a entirely different thing.
The NBN will have the infrastructure available to businesses too.
Imagine the income generated the NBN would gain from having business (large or small) customer included in their network.
In regards to the first section of my comment.
Where is the CHOICE for us residential customer to chose higher speed tiers?
You neglected to include your opinion of that.
Oh PS
The NBN in an infrastructure for all of Australia.
Residential AND Business.
Just wonder into their website and take a look.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
Not SMEs. They can’t afford the 4 figure a month outlay they’d usually need to pay for such services.
Although I have seem some as low as $500/m, in select areas through. Seems the technology lottery applies in the business world too eh?
“If a business wants fibre they can get it now, there are many commercial fibre providers outside the NBN.”
Great. Let’s take 100% of the revenue generated by high end businesses on NBNs business grade SLA (still yet to be introduced thanks to the Liberal clowns) helping to pay off the (partly) taxpayer funded infrastructure, and instead give that money direct to foreign interests. All while pouring more money down the drain by wasting it on inferior infrastructure that was deigned to be replaced 10 years ago if the Liberals hadn’t fucked up in the first place pre-2000s.
Not sure what all the negativity is aimed at, I’m not aware of any industry commentators that have recommended the HFC which the NBN Co owns should be overbuilt with FTTP, not even the Labor 2016 election policy.
It comes from the rabid ‘build FTTP everywhere’ vocal minority that frequent forums like this, in other words a non issue.
Its great news for those on HFC. Assuming it all goes as expected I will gladly tip my fedora to the NBN for this move. Well done.
However its extremely hypocritical and downright insulting to be rolling out 100mbit MAX to the majority of the population while those lucky few with HFC or FTTP get something with an upgrade path. Its doubly insulting to be telling everyone about your 1 gigabit upgrade path for some and in the same breath insist that 25mbit is enough for others.
That is because there is a 10 year maintenance contract for HFC so if its going to cost a lot to maintain one better bet getting revenue from it.
FYI there are pictures/articles etc out there where MTM has FTTP,FTTN and HFC all overbuilding each other in various streets and suburbs!
“I’m not aware of any industry commentators that have recommended the HFC which the NBN Co owns should be overbuilt with FTTP”
From Paul Budde:
“And, no, there is nothing revolutionary on the horizon in relation to fixed telecoms infrastructure – nothing similar to, for example, the total replacement of copper and HFC by fibre networks. ”
http://www.buddeblog.com.au/frompaulsdesk/fibre-optic-technologies-for-the-next-50-years/
He’s not a commentator (although that is his blog post), he’s an analyst, which holds more weight I believe. Considering it’s his job to follow and compile data on the telecommunications market. So now you’re “aware” Reality.
Depends what you read.
https://delimiter.com.au/2012/11/15/budde-praises-coalition-nbn-plan/
“Depends what you read.”
No it doesn’t Reality. In that article you linked, Budde stated:
“They (Budde means the Coalition) also agree that there are good reasons to believe that over time FttH could be the end result and that any technology path chosen should enable this to happen.”
So you’ve contradicted yourself … again.
lol, it’s a struggle eh Murdoch, in the meantime while you play with semantics the HFC is being made ready for the NBN and the eventual upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1 and then even faster upgrades to the DOCSIS 3.1 standard, your vain hope that the HFC infrastructure will be replaced by FTTP anytime soon is a fantasy.
Murdoch didn’t appear to struggle, and I saw no play with semantics…
There is absolutely not a single group anywhere who doesn’t KNOW that HFC and FTTN must at some point be replaced by FTTP.
HFC costs more than 12 times more to run, and is less reliable. It is by its very nature only a halfway step that allows the Coalition to kick the can down the road to the next election and cost us far more than we should have spent.
Murdoch didn’t appear to struggle
Of course not, the band of brothers Coalition haters need to back each other up, facts are irrelevant.
HFC costs more than 12 times more to run, and is less reliable.
You made that up, you have never done that before lol, if you don’t have any facts to make a point you make them up.
“You made that up”
Not even close…it is from a Comcast white paper on a study done several years ago. FTTP has become vastly cheaper since then, so it is certainly even more than 12 times cheaper today.
http://tinyurl.com/jgcy2zf
Written by John A. Brouse, Jr., Director of Network Implementation, Charter Communications, Inc.
Total Annual Operating Expense per Plant Mile for HFC – $1,103.17
Total Annual Operating Expense per Plant Mile for FTTP – $85.11
I actually think you have a problem with reality, which is quite ironic…
How does that apply to Australia where from the NBN Corporate Plan 2016 brownfields FTTP CPP is $4,400 and HFC CPP is $1800?
Troll if HFC is do cheap why is NBN doing infill with FTTN?
Simple, because infill FTTN is more cost effective than new HFC.
“from the NBN Corporate Plan 2016 brownfields FTTP CPP is $4,400 and HFC CPP is $1800?”
Heavy sigh…you are comparing (incorrect) Capex cost to Opex cost…
Capex (in this case) is the amount that is spent to roll out the technology, and Opex (the link I supplied) is the cost of running it everyday. Please note that They have already rolled out as much as they will ever roll out in the US.
Since the Capex quote you gave is several times that of any other country or company for rolling out FTTP, it is probably BS from NBN Co (please note that they do not tell anyone the detail of what those costs are for). But regardless, you are quoting the wrong costs anyway…
The daily cost to run HFC is more than 12 times higher than that of FTTP…
Chas,
The daily cost to run HFC is more than 12 times higher than that of FTTP…
So let me get this straight, the HFC CPP figure in CP 16 should say 12x $4,400 (FTTP) = $52,800 CPP for HFC.
“So let me get this straight, the HFC CPP figure in CP 16 should say 12x $4,400 (FTTP) = $52,800 CPP for HFC.”
Obviously reading isn’t your strength…
Lets try caps…
CPP REFERS TO THE COST PER PREMISE TO ROLL OUT THE NETWORK (CAPEX)
WHAT IS 12 TIMES MORE EXPENSIVE IS THE OPEX WHICH IS THE COST TO MAINTAIN AND RUN THE NETWORK.
What you are saying is that the cost of your refrigerator determines the cost of your food budget…
Obviously you are having a great deal of difficulty with these simple concepts, so you may now post another inane reply and I will let you have the last word…
Except where it’s the current HFC isnt usable
https://delimiter.com.au/2015/11/25/nbn-co-may-overbuild-the-optus-hfc-cable-network-it-bought-for-800-million/
Chas,
You are dancing around the answer (understandably), so what is the correct HFC CPP figure for the NBN rollout in Australia?
JasonRizz,
Except where it’s the current HFC isnt usable
Interestingly the Redcliffe HFC trial used Optus HFC, so why pick a trial area that has full media attention on the trial result that has ‘unusable cable’?
ROFL
OMFG…
“so what is the correct HFC CPP figure for the NBN rollout in Australia?”
Please tell me what you think CPP is…obviously it is not what you think it is.
If you want to have these conversations, you need to start to look up these terms you keep throwing around.
The only response I can give to your questions is “facepalm”…you apparently don’t understand the language very well.
You are comparing apples and oranges
He’s comparing apples and land ownership.
Chas,
So you don’t have the ‘corrected’ Australian HFC CPP figure after all of that, guess we keep using NBN CP 16 figures then eh?
AR “So you don’t have the ‘corrected’ Australian HFC CPP”
What is that, never heard of it…please explain.
Also, if you have any other corrected numbers, please publish them…
BTW, that minimal cost difference between Opex on HFC vs FTTP is:
Total Annual Operating Expense per Plant Mile for HFC – $1,103.17
Total Annual Operating Expense per Plant Mile for FTTP – $85.11
Here’s the link again in case you lost it…
http://tinyurl.com/jgcy2zf
As the math shows, that means that HFC costs 12.95 times as much to run as FTTP…and probably more these days.
You do know what the conclusion is from your famous white paper?
Conclusion
While the fiber-to-the-home solution addresses the operational concerns by an overwhelming margin, the current costs to deploy the FTTH network place it at a significant disadvantage to today’s HFC approach.
I will repeat the pertinent bit for you in case you blinked.
the current costs to deploy the FTTH network place it at a significant disadvantage to today’s HFC approach.
Wack! own goal, straight through the middle.
“the current costs to deploy the FTTH network place it at a significant disadvantage to today’s HFC approach.”
Yup…the paper was written 10 years ago, and the costs have dropped (in the US) from over $5k per connection to less than $800 per connection since then. This is why the rest of the world (including the largest HFC operators) have stopped all HFC rollouts and are going with pure FTTP.
BTW, you still seem to not understand the difference between operating costs and rollout costs.
Rollout costs (or Capex) are a one-off expense…
Operating costs (which are 12.95 times more expensive for HFC) continue forever…which is more important do you think?
@Reality
Re: Chas supplied White Paper;
Nice selective quoting…[Colour me shocked]
The White Paper heading btw is:
“Fiber Access Network
A Cable Operator’s Perspective”
Note: *Cable Operator’s Perspective*
I like the quotes:
“However, for new launches demanding high usage rates and superior reliability the cost and time to ready the HFC platform can be significant.”
[nbn HFC is to be upgraded & expanded]
“Considering only those factors already discussed, the analysis indicates that the HFC network is more cost efficient until year 13. After 13 years, the FTTH become the most cost effective delivery platform.”
[This is supposed to be a network for our future, ie. > 13 years.]
“It should be noted that for the HFC model, 44% of the costs are for material while the FTTH model realizes 77% of its cost in materials. The life cycle costs currently tips the scales in favor of the HFC network for cable operators.”
[For Cable Operators]
“However, FTTH is still in its infancy and therefore opportunities for significant FTTH hardware cost reductions will be realized.”
[Apparently this paper is around 10 years old, so FTTP costs have already seen nice price drops.]
“Bear in mind these early generation products carry high developmental costs that are typically factored into early pricing schedules.”
[10 year old paper; FTTP have seen nice price drops already & still more coming]
“Conclusion
… fiber-to-the-home solution addresses the operational concerns by an overwhelming margin…”
I was initially writing this post when I received a Delimiter notification & saw Chas mentioned that the white paper was 10 years old. So I re-tweaked bits; All should still be viably accurate however.
—
Your Own Goal Reality, is only in your head.
—
Later, RIPP.
The conclusion remains as quoted.
Look forward to your next ‘white paper’ analysis Chas, and the poor old 24/7 Rizz sock puppet desperately scrambling around to try and find a face saving exit on your behalf, and failing spectacularly as usual.
@Reality
You mean your quoted conclusion that was only possibly valid for Cable Operators 10 years ago when FTTP was much more expensive to install.
Ah Reality, always living in the past.
Btw., why is Chas, not also a Rizz? .. I call fucking discrimination… LOL XD
Later, RIPP.
“The conclusion remains as quoted. “
Which conclusion?
You have so many conclusions that completely contradict each other.
Lets enjoy just a few of your conclusions again, shall we?
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755983
You’re welcome
“The conclusion remains as quoted”
Yup…
Sadly, it is written in a language that you apparently don’t understand…you have my pity.
@Reality
Let me tell you a story.
I use to have an old car. Sure it wasn’t expensive when I bought it. I did enjoy it for the time I had it. Though it was very expensive with running/repair costs and was simply troublesome when it had problems, I had to use alternate forms of transport. (HFC)
I decided to get a newer car (I should have done this considering how much I spent on repairing the old car). I have been enjoying the new car for some time now and even though it cost me more initially. I haven’t had any major issues, and I will continue to enjoy it for longer not to mention the extra benefits it comes with. (FTTP)
PS: get back to me on https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755987
HC – “Wack! own goal, straight through the middle.”
“You fucking imbecile”
Don’t be too hard on him mate…he obviously doesn’t understand these things so is striking out as best he can. It really isn’t nice to laugh at the disadvantaged…
I didn’t introduce the article Chas did to support his point, now the sock puppet team decide you need to disown it because it out of date, but only the bits you don’t like of course such as the final conclusion.
Still a spectacular own goal.
@Reality
You continue your fall into FAIL.
When the article was written 10 years ago it was comparing a stabilised cost for cable against new and high costs for FTTP equipment; Of which they said would reduce in cost over time.
10 years have past & FTTP costs have come down & continue to do so.
Since FTTP costs should’ve come down more than HFC costs over that 10 year period, it means the Opex may still be around the same ratio, or now favouring FTTP even more.
It also means the Capex costs that were in the report will have come down, thus favouring FTTP even more.
I’m sure a new independent report in the same vein as the one being discussed, written today, would be quite interesting. FTTP would be shown in an even better light.
So suck it up Reality & stop snivelling.
Later, RIPP.
“I didn’t introduce the article Chas did to support his point”
And apparently you didn’t understand it either…your comments have nothing to do with the entire point.
You will need to learn many terms that you don’t understand…
CPP
Opex
Capex
TCO
rollout costs
maintenance costs
There are a few hundred more that I have noticed you don’t understand, but those will help you join THIS conversation…
“Don’t be too hard on him mate…he obviously doesn’t understand these things so is striking out as best he can.”
Did his response help change your mind yet? :p
“while you play with semantics”
No semantics here.
” the HFC is being made ready for the NBN”
On our taxpayer dime. Over and above the $11 billion. Yeah, thanks Malcolm.
“the eventual upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1”
Yeah, it will get there sure … “eventually”. I wonder when that’ll be? I’ll put that right up there with the other political promises the Coalition will break … no … errrr … “change” … when it suits them.
“your vain hope that the HFC infrastructure will be replaced by FTTP anytime soon is a fantasy.”
I have no hope for the NBN now. Malcolm Turnbull has screwed Australia royally for another generation … thanks to his grab for power, corporate protectionsim over a more open market, and cronyism so blatant that he’s wasting tazpayer’s money trying to make it look like it isn’t.
And just to be fair (because I know you won’t be, extremism can’t fathom balance) Labor isn’t clean either. It has always been my firm belief that Labor stumbled on their previous policy by accident. Their idea of being seen to do the right thing actually paid off for once, and Australia was going to be better for it. Not any more though.
But I have no intention of putting up and shutting up, like you would like people to do Reality. If I were to do that, I would be giving in to those ideals that I mentioned above. Those ideals make Australia, and dare I say the world, a worse place … not better.
If you have kids now, or sometime in the future, and you hear them complaining about the state of their internet, just remember … certain people had a hand in that. And you supported them. You’ll never admit it, but you’ll know. Sleep tight.
+ 1
ROFL…
Budde praises Coalition plan… in err 2012…that’d be the fully costed and for all Aussies by 2016 plan…
How’s that going?
You’re welcome.
How’s it going, it is going through to 2020, no change to the existing plan, it was just voted back in, other than FTTdp will be introduced at some point.
Keep the hate, in the meantime the MtM rolls on.
Oh so it IS 4 years behind, as I said… how ironic, 4 years behind, just like your link.
Ouch.
And the cost has blown out by tens of billions too, hasn’t it?
Ouch and ouch.
And FTTdp… ah yes, a clear admission that FTTN is FRAUDBAND and clearly is not good enough and needs upgrading.
Ouch, ouch and ouch.
Apology accepted.
“it is going through to 2020, no change to the existing plan”
The 2013 plan to implement a network by 2016 going through to 2020 had no change?
You fucking imbecile.
The latest plan is CP 16.
So troll so the 2013 figures where wrong by $B’s and years and the SR figures where wrong by $B and years. But what’s makes the CP16 believable.
Rizz,
You think I (or the NBN Co) care if you believe it or not, until the next CP is published what else is there?
But troll/idiot
you keep defend the previous claims of being revised even though they have revised cost has double and time has double or as you like to put it missed orignal targets by 75%
so you do seem to care that the cost and time frame keeps increasing.
Well what is there let’s see if the coalition didn’t lie about the $29B 25Mbps by 2016 instead of let’s say the current cp16 cost and time frame.
What else is there you ask. We can now watch the complete failure of a project. As cost and times frames blowout. Min 25Mbps gone. Deliver a network which is only required to deliver up to 1Mbps faster than ADSL2+ for a nice lim sum of up to $56B with a resell value of $27B lol.
@Reality,
I’m not a Rizz either btw.
Reality Quote:
“…until the next CP is published what else is there?”
How about; Maybe the truth… of which each of the Coalition nbn reviews/reports were lacking.
Later, RIPP.
“It comes from the rabid ‘build FTTP everywhere’ vocal minority that frequent forums like this, in other words a non issue.”
Yes, the surprisingly few that gives a shit about Australias economic climate.
Above thread recap:
“HFC costs more than 12 times more to run, and is less reliable.”
“You made that up”
“Not even close…it is from a Comcast white paper on a study done several years ago. FTTP has become vastly cheaper since then, so it is certainly even more than 12 times cheaper today.
http://tinyurl.com/jgcy2zf”
“How does that apply to Australia where from the NBN Corporate Plan 2016 brownfields FTTP CPP is $4,400 and HFC CPP is $1800?”
Me : How does CAPEX apply to OPEX?
So, in summary : You fucking imbecile.
Still waiting on the ‘revised’ Australian HFC CPP figure, based on a HFC OPEX produced in a different country using different accounting methods and different costing analysis, so in the absence of that missing in action fact personal abuse will have to do eh Rizz.
Same rabbit caught in the headlights dishing out the abuse routine what is it now, for at least six plus years?
How’s San Francisco watch the time zone difference next time.
@Reality,
Do you yet know the difference between Opex & Capex?
If so, then please detail your definition of each below.
Reality Quote: “How’s San Francisco watch the time zone difference next time.”
People that ACTUALLY work in the ICT sector, especially on the tech side, website owners/operators/designers, international relations, or support personel etc., often work outside of their living-in countries standard 9am-5pm worktimes.
People that understand tech & what a fool of yourself you keep making & may not sleep regularly,(injuries, illness, insomnia etc.) but have a tablet, or the like, by their beds, so when awake for a few minutes, inbetween sleeps, can read your latest dribble, may also then reply at odd hours.
Ps. Buy a vowel, get a clue.
Later, RIPP.
“How’s San Francisco watch the time zone difference next time.”
My network, servers and computers are “always on”
You don’t know much about running a 24/7 tech company do you fuckwit!!!!!!
:Can’t even hit the correct Reply button to the person he is pretending to respond to.”
LMAO
@RIPP
There is only one person in my SME that keeps normal office hours. My front desk receptionist/PA
My developers work from wherever or whenever they please. All my development/testing team work in the Cloud. These ancient ones probably think we still develop applications in bricks ‘n’ mortar office cubicles. LoL
I also spend my leisure hours enjoying high speed broadband for entertainment. eg MMORPG’s, VR and Virtual Worlds (Second Life).
I also have Microsoft Hololens Developers Kit to experiment with.
Life is Good!
ROFL stop it, enough comedy please!!!
No, keep going Alain. You’re hilarious.
“Still waiting on the ‘revised’ Australian HFC CPP figure, based on a HFC OPEX”
You have a CPP based on Opex? Isn’t that like having apples based on oranges?
Every text I have says that they are vastly different…please enlighten us to the new definitions.
He’s not joking. Many tech centric SMEs employ flexible hours and virtual offices. A lot of developers are night hours, and you have no idea how convient it is not to be working 9-5 Monday to Friday for things like banking…
Reality, this is why people complain about telecommunications policy not meeting needs. The World has changed. People like Snow need, not want, high speed broadband in their homes.
Whenever we bring up the why of the policy you always run away from it. But the why is the most important thing. The why prevents the policy from being a white elephant and turns the conversation into how best to meet the nation’s needs.
All this focus on the cost misses the point. We can pinch pennies all we like, but if the solution we end up providing isn’t fit for purpose we’ve done the nation a disservice.
This, I’m on-call regularly and my slow as hell 12/1 ADSL2 link is a major bottle neck that affects my productivity.
Lib trolls like devoid need to be taken out the back and beaten with 56k modems till they stop being conservative fuck wits holding us back.(if that kills a few of them so be it!)
Derek O
That’s a big unfair on our resident troll here. As he do any know what cat3 is I doubt he would know what a 56K modem is.
I’m on-call regularly and my slow as hell 12/1 ADSL2 link is a major bottle neck that affects my productivity.
You don’t anything faster for posting in here surely?
@ alain…
Because “ADSL will be fine for everyone now and into the future.” as YOU said just a few years ago…
ROFL at just how wrong and desperate one poor sorry ideological lackey (alain)… was, is and will obviously, continue to be.
Apology accepted
Maybe he should be hung from power pole with cat3. ?
Or with “failed HFC”
+1
“The World has changed. People like Snow need, not want, high speed broadband in their homes.”
Compulsory for my type of business otherwise it cannot exist.
It is also a requirement that all developers that I hire for the job to have access to adequate broadband (minimum 100/100Mbps) otherwise they don’t get the job.
I don’t pay developers to play Solitaire while they wait for data transfers in a realtime development environment. I’ve got a tech SME to run.
100/100 is a little hash Snow. A lot of people can’t get symmetric speeds like that in Australia. :(
“100/100 is a little hash Snow. A lot of people can’t get symmetric speeds like that in Australia. :(”
That is terribly sad….. but back in 2005 I predicted that this would happen and so I moved to the U.S. What else do you expect when you have governments who still thinks in the 19th Century Industrial Age in a Post-Industrial World.
If you ever come to the U.S. you will find that 100Mbps symmetrical is a very basic and almost minimum tier that most ISP provide on Fiber To The Home networks.
EPB Chattanooga
https://epbfi.com/enroll/packages/
Verizon FiOS
http://www.verizon.com/home/fios/
AT&T GigaPower
https://www.att.com/shop/internet/gigapower.html
Comcast XFinity Gigabit (2Gbps symmetrical FTTH)
http://www.xfinity.com/multi-gig-offers.html
Sonic Fiber
https://www.sonic.com/gigabit-fiber-internet
Google Fiber
https://fiber.google.com/about/
….. and dozens of others to chose from
This has triggered massive economic & business development, entrepreneurship and investments on a large scale as well as the various municipal applications which build Smart Cities. It has also largely contributed to U.S. economic recovery.
It has also created JOBS JOBS JOBS!
U.S. National Unemployment Rate 4.9% (June 2016)
I don’t care for a lot of the usual commentary on this site because it fails to account for the financial implications (like interest payments on funding infrastructure loans) plus a general ignorance of large scale infrastructure or IT projects, all in conjunction with what Australians are willing to pay for and what is fair and equitable.
That said, I took a look at the Ovum report. While it makes a good start, it reads more like a thinly veiled marketing piece rather than a serious study. Note the lack of any problems, challenges encountered, or technical and financial analysis. At least it’s upfront about who commissioned the work – i.e. paid for it.
What I found even more interesting is the author was a Telecoms analyst for a number of years before becoming General Manager of Revenue at NBN for over 6 years, only departing 3 months ago to work at Ovum.
Draw your own conclusions.
As for DOCSIS 3.1, do some research on the internet and you’ll find that without the secret inside knowledge, we’ll never be able make informed commentary as (according to the equipment vendors) it all comes down to the state of your cable plant, fan-out and contention ratios and a number of other things – all unknown to us and kept secret. The other problem is lack of competition to drive demand for improved services in the future.
The best analogy I can come up with regarding the way the NBN is being sold to us is that of a car salesman pointing to the speedo that goes up to 200 km/h as an indication how fast we could drive to the city in the morning. It’s a little more dependent on the car, what’s under the bonnet, plus the roads and congestion!
But the “independent” report was comissioned by NBN Co – enough said!
Just another cynical marketing ploy.
The penny finally dropped!
Would someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d always assumed (based on the old 3yr plans, and direction statements) that NBN would widely go to market first with DOCSIS 3.0, then upgrade to 3.1. It now looks like we’re not going to see HFC rollout until late 2017, and that’s likely to be the end of 2017 based on the way the hit promised milestones at the very end of a quarter or year.
This is based on:
– Looking back at news stories and their blogs, they talk about upgrading to DOCSIS 3.1 in 2017. (They’ve been saying this for a while), they don’t talk about 3.0
– They stopped publishing the 3yr rollout plans last year as they had a lot of 2016 deployment dates for HFC
– If you’re in an HFC area and ask them specifically when you’ll be getting the NBN, the answer you get is the most evasive thing ever. They talk about contracts going out, plus multiple, very flexible timeframes added to that. It could be interpreted as within a year, but really means well over a year.
– In the past week or so, their online rollout map started showing some areas in Brown (build commenced) in a known HFC area (Surrey Hills, VIC) that was originally planned for H1-2016. This looks to be the extent of it.
– They’re planning to run in parallel with the HFC previous owners (on different channels), hence I doubt they would deploy DOCSIS 3.0 gear only to bin it in 1-2 years for new 3.1 gear given how cost sensitive the project is.
– A friend in Surrey Hills who is a Telstra HFC customer unexpectedly had his old cable modem upgraded recently. We still can’t figure out why, but I’m starting to wonder whether it was to vacate NBN channels rather than some kind of pre-emptory marketing move.
– The fanfare around the announcement Redcliffe, QLD pilot wrap up and opening it to RSP in the last week of June was purely to say HFC is commercially available, yet it doesn’t seem to be available elsewhere.
Anyway, the point being they claim on their own blogs they decided to go with HFC in 2013 (I thought Turnbull decided for them), hence it’s going to take 4+ years to upgrade an existing HFC network, meanwhile a slide in the Ovum report shows the foreign HFC telcos they compare against shows the rest of the world starting their upgrades in 2015 & 2016.
Why the hell is it taking so long to convert and sell something they’ve already purchased and own? A big selling point of recycling the HFC network was getting to market faster. Faster than what?!!! Somehow they’re able to more rapidly build FTTN nodes which involves negotiating with councils, selecting sites, having power connected and getting fibre run. I give up!
They’ve had 3 years to get HFC up and running, with the original suggestion that it should just be a token flick of a switch and thats it. Of course, it was never going to be that easy, so we now get to the point where we didnt get HFC as an NBN product until the election period, and wont see the start of DOCSIS 3.1 until late next year at best.
So what delays will we see next year that will push that out to 2018?
As you say, a big selling point of recycling HFC was that it was already a product, so could be folded in immediately. Strange that the Liberal yesmen around here dont have a problem with it taking 3 years already, and another 18 months or more before we see what was suggested we would have had years ago.
Good job Turnbull, just another nail in the worthless MTM coffin.
Because they failed basic due diligence when they purchased two nearly obsolete over lapping networks that are maybe only connected to maybe 33% of homes in said footprint.
It’s not connected to 33% (34% in CP 16 to be correct) of homes only some of them will be connected on existing Telstra and Optus cable plans, it passes them, the intention is to have 4M residences on HFC by the planned end of rollout.
But troll the SR had all the HFC connected by now.
Rizz,
No it didn’t.
lol Troll
http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/NBN-Co-Strategic-Review-Report.pdf
page 97
2.6M connected on HFC by 2016
Thats pretty close to 80% of the expected peak of 3.27m. In their defence, the plan does say 2016 CY, so they still have 150 or so days to go to get those 2.6m active.
HC will have an exact number.
Out of curiosity, where did you get that 4m number from alain?
Just saw HC put 158 days up for yesterday, so basic maths would suggest they have 157 days left. Or for alain, around 1253 days…
GG,
Out of curiosity, where did you get that 4m number from
NBN CP 16 Page 39, Table 2: Multi-Technology Mix of Premises.
2.6m by 2016 says SR
4m by 2020 says CP
So a piddly 1.4m in 4 years (end 2016 – end 2020)?
Ouch again.
Or perhaps it’s just that these clowns simply, have NFI and are always completely wrong?
But to look at the glass half full and not to be a “hater” …lol (what’s not to hate about MTM – inferior, costly, slow, obsolete) but again glass half full…
…at least that’s 1.4m unlike “0, zero, zilch, SFA” FTTN (as alain kindly admitted to) in two years, between Sept 2013 – Sept 2015.
JasonFizz,
You said.
the SR had all the HFC connected by now.
I said no it didn’t which is correct, the SR didn’t say all the HFC connected by now.
Quick back pedal by you and we get.
2.6M connected on HFC by 2016
It doesn’t say that it says by the end of CY 2016, July is not the end of CY 2016, the HFC mix was changed upwards by 4% from SR13 in CP 16 anyway and only specifies a HFC finish by 2020 to 4M residences.
Lol troll
Well yes all that is connected is 2.6M with the rest requiring leadins and whole new cable runs For the 3m they where going to connect by 2019.
But quick backpedal
Ahh so NBN going to have 2.6m connected by the end of this year even though the now cp16 doesn’t say that lol.
But thanks for pointing out how factually wrong the SR is and that that shouldn’t have changed from FTTP.
Thank you alain, for once you’ve supported your argument. BE nice if you did that all the time, you might find theres less animosity towards you.
I now wonder how the number jumped from ~3.2m to 4m between the 2013 and 2016 reports. Thats a 25% increase with 0% rollout of HFC.
I wonder if they are expecting the bulk of MDU’s to connect to HFC. Which creates contention issues, moreso if DOCSIS 3.1 encourages everyone else in the footprint (ie those that can connect already but dont) to connect.
If they arent rolling any more out, how many more are essentially forced onto whats already a saturated service? They have already removed service guarantees, so whats the feedback if HFC drops from 80 Mbps to 10 in peak hours?
As I said a couple of times above, there is a lot of detail thats being ignored with this.
JasonRizz,
That is correct the CP 16 came well after SR13, any estimates of the infrastructure mix outlined in SR 13 and time to completion and funding are updated in CP 16.
No doubt the next NBN Corporate Plan will update figures given in CP 16 and most likely changes to the MtM mix proportions as the rollout progresses through to 2020.
@ alain
Lol… in your mouthing frothing rant of nothingness, in reply to my, what everyone but you the faithful…could clearly see was a facetious comment, built around 2 reports which are quite frankly so different in relation to the same MTM topic, that it beggars belief at just how wrong these fucking idiots can actually be now or were then (or both)…
… you forgot to address the pertinent conclusion of the comment.
SO TRY AGAIN… ready…
But to look at the glass half full and not to be a “hater” …lol (what’s not to hate about MTM – inferior, costly, slow, obsolete) but again glass half full…
…at least that’s 1.4m unlike “0, zero, zilch, SFA” FTTN (as alain kindly admitted to) in two years, between Sept 2013 – Sept 2015.
GO tell us about the FTTN… 0, zero, zilch, SFA again, as you did before, ata boy.
You’re welcome/apology accepted.
Lol troll
No doubt the next NBN corporate plan will update figures given in co16 by at least another $10B following the trend it set in 2013 with more cost blowouts and delays through to 2030
Classic Jason. Kudos…
“But thanks for pointing out how factually wrong the SR is and that that shouldn’t have changed from FTTP.”
Indeed…
Our dear friend keeps saying the SR is no longer a pertinent document, as the later CP16 has since highlighted the SR financials/numbers to be incorrect.
So as alain claims, if the financials contained within the SR were so wrong, by tens of billions according to CP16, which is now “the” doc that matters… then the info/financials used to decide to go with FTTN in the SR were undeniably flawed.
Not that that wasn’t bleedin’ obvious anyway (Mal’s policy was FTTN and then review) but this is the smoking gun…
Thanks again alain… with friends like you, the far right of politics and FTTN Neanderthals, don’t need enemies.
“the intention is to have 4M residences on HFC by the planned end of rollout”
Ah the road to Hell…
And how many businesses? Not a single one of them has a connection today…
Well yeah, beyond the Redcliffe trial area HFC has not been deployed at any large scale, residences or businesses.
“HFC has not been deployed at any large scale”
Of course it has, it is in millions of homes…but zero% into businesses.
You see HFC was never designed for data, just as Cat 3 lines were never designed for data. Fibre-optics have been designed for data from day 1…
That is why HFC has always been residential only.
Reality failed reading comprehension again. Simon clearly stated that HFC was only connected to “maybe 33%” of the homes in the footprint. Any sane person would recognise that by footprint he meant the HFC footprint (as that was the topic he was discussing).
ok I have re read his post I take your point, wrong interpretation.
In that same footprint, there are MDU’s. For simplicity’s sake, call it 33% as well. I believe its near enough to that to be close enough to the point anyway.
So, another 33% that have access but have chosen not to connect. Under NBN, they will eventually have no choice but to connect to HFC if they want internet services.
So quite simply, thats doubling the people on the HFC network.. So glad I’m on 100/40 and dont have to deal with the contention issues thats going to create.
“Because they failed basic due diligence”
They didn’t fail due diligence, they actively said such diligence was unheard of in corporate buyouts and having a fallback network (that operation clusterfuck since defined as unusable) was good governance.
The information is available; knowledgable sources shouted down at delimiter (commenter preference for abuse and bile).
It was never claimed HFC was ready to go. DA renegotiation, upgrade to DOCSIS 3.0 required, spectrum reallocation, filter replacement, CMTS equipment upgraded, run splits for higher expect demand, technicians to drop, RSP integration…
2m premises are currently connected, drop to premises passed is relatively inexpensive (compared to FTTP).
CMTS upgrade from 3.0 to 3.1 is software only with the new equipment. However further splitting required if higher speeds demanded (HFC are high value areas); given 1.05mbps average provisioned customer CVC splits unlikely near term.
Majority of MDUs previous ignored. Conroy / Quigley ignored the challenge, passed them without connecting (SC0). NBNCo has recommended a number of techs, FTTB for the larger. FTTN for some where bypassed by the original build.
MTM flexibility demonstrating its significant speed and cost advantages to full fibre. Again the fixed line upgrade would be complete today but for Conroy.
But Richard the SR had all of the HFC connected by now to the nbnso what happen.
But according to Telstra it’s already on discus 3.0 by already offering up to 100Mbps. No need to upgrade to speeds we don’t need is there Richard. 15Mbps enough by 2023 isn’t it.
“MTM flexibility demonstrating its significant speed and cost advantages to full fibre”
Quite the opposite actually…the key question is how soon we will have ubiquitous Gigabit broadband offered. If it is later than 2020, then we will be well and truly behind in economic competitiveness due to our insufficient communications infrastructure.
This will most likely prolong the coming recession by many years…
How does not having Gigabit accelerate recession?
What you need to do Chas is persuade residences that can get 100/40 now to get off 12/1 and 25/5, that will help your Chasenomics recession problem even more don’t you think?
Reality,
I don’t understand why someone who knows as much about tech as you do would be opposed to a fttp infrastructure.
The problem with mtm is that most of it is obsolete tech. Because it’s obsolete, there will only ever be so much that can be done to improve it. Not only will it hit a wall where no improvements can be made, it will just simply wear out. Then the whole thing will have to be replaced anyway.
What do you think the network will be like in 2030? Or 2040?
I absolutely agree with you that most people don’t need or want faster than 12/1 or 25/5 right now. But what do you think will be the minimum in 2025 or 2030?
How do we get from what we have being built now to what we will need then?
Most people don’t need more than 25/5, but what about those who do? There are plenty of situations where someone might need more speed to run a business. If the network is not there, then it could effect the economy. Once again, how fast will the connection need to be in 2025? Potentially, some of the currently emerging technologies could need faster than 100mbps to work properly. Such as 4k or even 8k video and VR.
Btw, we have a fairly simple computer system at work for the cash registers, but it has to be connected to the head office to work, and it struggles on our adsl2 connection. It will probably work fine on 25/5 when it becomes available, but let me emphasize that it is a simple system. A business with more elaborate needs could not be run from the same location. If our business were to grow by a factor of 4, 50/20 would not be enough.
And just so you know those copper cables you kept highlighting are cat 3 cables. You really did make yourself look pretty silly.
@ alain,
Of course you were asking not because you actually wanted to know the facts… rather, you were again, being a dick…
But regardless…
http://www.ericsson.com/spotlight/media/blog/isolated-impact-increased-broadband-speed-gdp/
“A new report, conducted jointly by Ericsson, Arthur D. Little and Chalmers University of Technology, in 33 OECD countries, quantifies the isolated impact of broadband speed, showing that doubling the broadband speed for an economy increases GDP by 0.3%.* A 0.3 percent GDP growth in the OECD region is equivalent to USD 126 billion. This corresponds to more than one seventh of the average annual OECD growth rate in the last decade.
The study also shows that additional doublings of speed can yield growth in excess of 0.3 percent (e.g. quadrupling of speed equals 0.6 percent GDP growth stimulus) Both broadband availability and speed are strong drivers in an economy. Last year Ericsson and Arthur D. Little concluded that for every 10 percentage point increase in broadband penetration GDP increases by 1 percent.”
Please go over this with your fine toothed comb, to find the word may or might (hint: I saw can… you’re welcome) to argue like a burnt impudent child over…
Or you could reiterate your previous claims alain, from only a few years ago that “ADSL is good enough for everyone then and into the future.”
Couldn’t you?
PRICELESS
You’re welcome again.
Yea thank you for supporting MtM as that report is all about BB penetration and getting users off slow speed ADSL or no BB access at all.
So the MtM choice of the two infrastructure choices that are faster to deploy than FTTP, FTTN and HFC that both use existing infrastructure is vindicated.
But troll so far NBN has delivered FTTN or HFC faster than FTTP so when is it vindicated?
Oh look alain, in amongst all of your mindless fluff and but, but, but back pedaling from actual reality…
…you missed this –
“…Or you could reiterate your previous claims alain, from only a few years ago that “ADSL is good enough for everyone then and into the future.”
Couldn’t you?
Oh no you just contradicted that once again didn’t you…?
In fact contrary to your previous claims (surprise, surprise) you actually just referred to ADSL as “slow speed”…ROFL… didn’t you?
Alain’s law – “SLOW SPEED ADSL is good enough for everyone now and into the future…”
We have a new contender for before roads.
Your’e welcome.
“How does not having Gigabit accelerate recession”
By reducing the GDP and limiting numerous income streams from technology.
I would try and explain it, but it appears you lack the ability to understand economics…
So how does the economics of this work, you ignored it.
What you need to do Chas is persuade residences that can get 100/40 now to get off 12/1 and 25/5,
Because the GDP is not held back by Gigabit availability as such but more about trying to convince punters to sign up for it.
“So how does the economics of this work, you ignored it.”
No, you just didn’t understand it…
Oh I see John Maynard Keynes.
:)
And exactly whats wrong with Keynes?
“And exactly whats wrong with Keynes?”
It was the first economist he was able to Google…
If he doesn’t understand what Capex and Opex are, can you imagine how out-to-sea he is with economics?
Must be hitting some goals, the personal abuse has turned up a few decibels to try and compensate.
Same ol, same ol,
lol
@Reality,
Reality Quote: “Must be hitting some goals, the personal abuse has turned up a few decibels to try and compensate.”
Maybe it’s because you’re being deliberately annoying & ignorant.
People have tried to help you plenty of times with your lack of understanding re: nbn & tech used, but you continue to persist with posting ignorant/trolling dribble.
Later, RIPP.
“Must be hitting some goals”
Only if you’re trolling Reality.
“Same ol, same ol,”
From what I can see … that’s very true … on your side as well.
Indeed. I’ve found the attempts to educate them are pointless. In the case of alain myself and Rizz tried to educate him years ago but the only thing we got out of that effort was “before roads there were no roads”
Indeed HC…
Sadly but tellingly, although “unintentionally” humorous, it is now apparent that was the most sense he has, is and will ever make…
Oh it’s time for the repetitious talking sock puppet routine, vaudeville is alive and well in Delimiter.
Speaking of comedy being alive and well…
http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/archive/coalition-broadband-policy-frequently-asked-questions
You’re welcome
@ alain…
Here’s your only goal …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQpRYKwmY7E
You’re welcome
“Must be hitting some goals, the personal abuse has turned up a few decibels”
It is truly a sad state that your idea of success in life is to see how much you can exasperate good people who have tried to help educate you. You only seem happy when they have become so impatient with your enforced ignorance that they become abusive.
You are truly bizarre…
Hey Reality,
Can’t help but notice you ignored my question. I even gave you 2 days to look it up and come back with a response.
If you are going to treat something with disdain, perhaps you should understand it first.
But of course you would rather make yourself look like a victim.
“It was never claimed HFC was ready to go.”
It was, however, claimed that HFC would be FINISHED in 2016.
“NBNCo has recommended a number of techs, FTTB for the larger. FTTN for some where bypassed by the original build.”
In other words : Overbuilding portions of obsolete HFC networks with inferior networks deigned to be replaced by 2030 by what should have been rolled out in 2013 onwards.
“MTM flexibility demonstrating its significant speed and cost advantages to full fibre.”
How’s that $29.5B 2016 promise going?
“Again the fixed line upgrade would be complete today but for Conroy.”
Yes, it’s Conroy’s fault that the Liberals didn’t fulfill their ill-conceived promise.
It was, however, claimed that HFC would be FINISHED in 2016
No it wasn’t.
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755743
So the SR made a false claim that it would have everyone currently connected to the HFC by the end of this year on the NBN
It’s not a false claim because it’s not a claim made in the SR in the first place.
So the SR didn’t say it would have 2.6M connected by the end of this year on HFC.
That’s not what you originally said.
that it would have everyone currently connected to the HFC by the end of this year on the NBN
The SR still didn’t say that.
So 2.6m don’t already have access to HFC already. The SR didn’t say that?
@ Reality…
We all know this MTM bad joke network, will cost as much as $100B and not be actually completed for some 10 years…
“No it wasn’t.”
Go re-read SR13; the plan that the Liberals were (in part) voted in for.
I have it still doesn’t say.
that it would have everyone currently connected to the HFC by the end of this year on the NBN
Failed HFC
Exactly as YOU said previously..
There fixed that AGAIN for you…
You’re welcome
So it doesn’t say they would connect the 2.6m that already have access to the HFC by this year or do I need to give you that page number again
“fully costed and ready to go”
Which year though?
Great Work Turnbull, so now our $56b NBN is nothing more than an upgraded ADSL2 network, and an upgraded HFC network, that Telstra/Optus would have done anyway at zero cost to the taxpayer.
Actually they weren’t doing it, which is the point behind the NBN concept in the first place.
The difference is now, Telstra get paid for their network, they get paid for endless maintenance and construction and then they get gifted not only what was bought from them, but also from their competitors, for 1/3rd of the expenditure kindly donated by taxpayers to upgrade them.
It’s not Telstra’s network.
Hotcakes!
Are you sure alain wasn’t right (just once) in saying “you are actually me”?
Well after all… I was thinking the exact same thing, you wrote ;)
But the again, weren’t we all.
Where in America Can You Get Gigabit Internet (Right Now)?
http://highspeedgeek.com/america-gigabit-internet/
I’m off to Minneapolis, Minnesota tomorrow to sign a business deal. Fruit ripe for the picking
US Internet announced their world’s first 10 gigabit FTTH deployment in December 2014 in Minnesota
http://www.startribune.com/us-internet-to-offer-ultra-fast-connections-in-minneapolis/286680241/?c=y&page=all&prepage=1#continue
Minnesota connectivity statistics
http://broadbandnow.com/Minnesota
Gigabit Minnesota
https://secure.gigabitmn.com/
Eat your heart out Aussies
“Network performance by HFC now rivals fibre-based platforms” – Funniest joke I’ve heard in ages.
I like the new NBNco. They talk so much more sense than before.
Hi ToshP300,
Next time please read the label for usage directions beforehand;
You’ve obviously overdosed…
Have fun with your current high :)
Though you should probably call for the paramedics, just incase.
Later, RIPP :)
“They talk so much more sense than before”
I think we have found another Trump follower…
HHHHUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE…….
False.
Oh look HC,
Another like the two others has returned…
LOL
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755976
Speaking of vaudeville…
“before roads there were no roads”…
Youre welcome, apology accepted
Tosh I see you are still living up to your chosen moniker….
This guy Reality is really trolling you all. He makes an obviously false and often political statement, gets proven wrong, moves on and makes another one. Doesn’t this forum get moderated?
Where have I been proven wrong and making false or a political statement, and there is no such thing as a Coalition MtM hater being proven wrong or making false and political statements, no of course not.
Blatant in your face double standards coupled with lashings of in your face hypocrisy as usual.
Well your latest claim today Telstra prefers FTTP when they are rolling out copper for greenfield isn’t making a false statement
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755978
So supply a link where Telstra was not rolling out copper to greenfields please don’t for get the quote and page number too I won’t be waiting for it.
(Reality…lol) alain’s greatest false statements, lies, contradictions and political partiality.
Then: “FTTP will succeed because its a monopoly.”
2 weeks later: “FTTP will fail like HFC failed as no one wants or needs such speeds.”
Then: “HFC across from my place is only good for the possums to run up and birds to perch upon.”
Now: Since MTM, no such comment has been repeated. in fact HFC is now lauded and talked up…
Then: “ADSL speeds are good enough for everyone now and into the future.”
Now: g, fast, DOCSIS 3.1 speed improvements for MTM are lauded and talked up.
Then: claimed that – totally mobile residences will eat into FTTP revenue so much it will make FTTP not viable.
Now: Since MTM, no such comment or position has ever been repeated, even though such logic would surely apply more so to slower FTTN than it would to FTTP.
Then: “Labor are liars who can’t be trusted because they revised their NBN plan.”
Now:“It’s all been there in CP16, where the Coalition have revised their NBN plan”. No talk of lies, in fact revision is now an excuse, to excuse all blow outs.
Then: “I don’t want to be forced onto the monopoly FTTP network.”
Now: Since MTM, no such comment or position has ever been repeated.
And the list goes on and on…
Whoops almost forgot the classic “before roads there were no roads”…
You’re welcome… apology accepted.
Brilliant summary Rizz.
Thank you HC…
“Where have I been proven wrong and making false or a political statement”
Lets look first in this thread…
AlternateReality – “You made that up”
proof… http://tinyurl.com/jgcy2zf
AR – “So there is no two wire pair copper runs like there are in single residences in MDU’s in Australia, they are all Cat 3 cable?”
proof…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_pair
You know, the problem isn’t finding where you were wrong, it’s finding where you were right…still looking for one.
+ many
The abuse spitting FTTN hating double standard hypocritical lynch mob sock puppet team has made judgement.
LOL
I think you meant “the engineers have determined a truth”…
Oh alain classic… clutch… straw…clutch… dig that hole deeper, deeper…desperate something, alain must reply, say something even if more WTF than usual (if that’s humanly possible) …
Whatever dud(e)… do what you must/as you are told, we understand.
So whilst you clearly have no balls, because you can’t answer simple questions relating to your then/now contradictions (BTW – that’s not a personal attack – that’s a fact, as you continually refuse to answer me.. you’re welcome) but are still compelled/told to come here to spew forth your contrived contradictory BS nonetheless.. I must admit that you, in the face of reality (no pun intended) facts and your own contradictions, do have chutzpah (for the “crusade” of course) in continually repeating such absolutely unfounded BS…
So kudos for being the eunuch with the biggest scar.
But seriously, you accuse us, whilst you ahve a plethora of contradictory/hypocritical “positions”, such as…
“FTTP will succeed/will fail”
“I don’t want to be forced onto monopoly FTTP – bring on monopoly MTM.”
And lynch mob? alain/reality talks lynch mob?
You who still holds the Delimiter record for the longest ban of “UP TO …LOL…” 1 year – but you whiny bitched your way out of it by begging RLM after a a few months (iirc) clearly forget (as you tend to do with facts) how you Tosh and deteego (let’s call you the 3 stooges), desperately tried pleading with RLM after I was banned, to make sure he banned my IP address. Or banned all of my providers IP addresses (WTF). And/or ban ranges of my providers IP addresses…
Yee haw….. now there’s a red necked, posse, hang ’em mentality.
That was hilarious just how desperate you “doers of democracy and freedom of speech, from the far right (cough, splutter)…” were so compelled to attempt to shut me up…
Look in all seriousness and I mean seriousness because I know you aren’t a dumb person. Well after all, someone as conniving and cunning as you are, who can twist and turn every comment to suit your crusade isn’t dumb.
So whilst I know people have said nasty things about you. I’m sure you realise (but are just being a dick because, well you are sans facts and are on a mission) that because RIPP uses Re: and so do I. Jason K uses similar wording at times. Snow Crash says LMAO and so do I at times and Hotcakes says IDGAF and so do I, that we all must be the same person, is moronic…
But if it makes you feelk better to mention me overand over, feel free, I’m sure while you think you are soooo clever and such a sleuth, we are all laughing in knowing…
But in saying that, if you are going to come here to do nothing more than play the dumb, argumentative, childish, fuckwit, don’t expect and don’t have the audacity to sob when treated like anything else but a dumb argumentative, childish fuckwit?
You’re welcome
Reality has more clones than Dolly The Sheep
About the same IQ as a sheep too!
Hey Ryan, we all know. But the point is if you don’t answer the lies and mistruths, some people may believe it.
It is painful and exacerbating. But Reality is very consistent in showing that he does not have a real argument. He simply introduces unrelated elements to attempt to confuse the issue, then makes snide remarks that result in people getting annoyed with him, which then allows him to accuse them of “personal” attacks.
Yes it is classic troll behaviour, but the information is important. The fact that so many of us are willing to tear him down has even been turned on us by him. Apparently there are varying numbers of “Rizz” around.
Its kind of amusing in a sad pathetic way.
+ 1
He does that because he cant accept the fact there are so many that disagree with him.
It must be quite devastating for him to realise even though he’s getting the exact substandard patchwork clusterfuck plan he always wanted (25mbps lol) it only serves as evidence against his irrational position (just as we predicted it would). I think he knows he’s lost the debate here but being a CFKD and given his history rationality is not something we should ever expect. In his mind the best thing he can do is increase the amount of idiocy. Look at the comments in this article, the amount authored by him is very telling.
+ 1
It’s amazing how when you free a Government Enterprise from the restrictions of arbitrary political mandates, they build economically responsible infrastructure!
@ToshP300,
Yes,…. Like when Labor were in power, listened to an independant highly skilled panel of experts on FTTP being the best way forward for the country & let the other experts in the newly created NBNCO do their jobs with minimal interference,(fucking ACCC with the 121 poi issue aside.. ugh).
However since the Coalition got into power your statement is years too late.
Coalition locked the new Libshill/yesmen appointed nbn into going with the cheapest Capex thing they believed they could find & to ignore longterm costs & ROI.
Fudge figures, lie &/or deceive on reviews & statements in regards to nbn also.
So no government interference with current nbn,… except in a HUGE way.
Ps. Even though I replied; You’re a super obvious troll.
Find a bridge, crawl under it & expire gracefully;
It’s the only idea that will have people respect anything you do or say ;)
Later, RIPP.
@ Tosh…
So the opposite to the current MTM/NBN.. yes indeed.
I can go all the way back to 2003, to when the National Broadband Network was first conceived
2003: The Broadband Advisory Group’s Report to Government
http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/media/pressrel/YUC86/upload_binary/yuc864.pdf
2004: Senate Inquiry Recommendations
http://www.moore.org.au/senh/2002/AustTelecommsInquiryReport2002_4.pdf
Australia has lost it’s vision thanks to the Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull fruitcakes!
I think you are being overly lenient there snowy, Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull aren’t just fruit cakes, they are national economic vandals!
OK Derek O then I shall call a “spade” a spade!
PSYCHOPATHS
Will that do?
Here’s a few more:
Machiavellian
Narcissistic
Sociopathic
How about adding fascists too?
Add babbitts … there’s a few of them here it seems …
: a self-satisfied person who conforms readily to conventional, middle-class ideas and ideals, especially of business and material success;
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/babbitt
False.
Within the next 2-3 years there will be nothing much left of the obsolete telephone network in the U.S. as the IP TRANSITION is now fully underway and the network is being retired. This includes “telephone exchanges”!
If you missed the FCC’s IP Transition news over the past four years you have been living under a rock, on a different planet or in Australia.
The U.S. Connecting America: National Broadband Plan, which was unveiled March 17, 2010 is proceeding as planned.
http://www.broadband.gov/plan/executive-summary/
Goodbye copper networks.
Goodbye cable/PayTV networks
R.I.P.
In the meantime in Australia, the Coalition NBN rolls on while the ‘haters gonna hate’ waffle on and on and play sock puppet games and spray around heaps of personal abuse with zero influence as they did in 2013-2016 and again to be repeated in 2016-2019, slow learners I guess.
Here are some real world facts for you to digest, if you can get out of the fantasy bubble for a few minutes.
A total of 14,507 additional lots/premises were passed/covered by the network during the week, of which 11,690 were in Brownfield and 2,501 were in New Development areas. Fixed wireless coverage increased by 107 premises. nbn’s long term satellite network was launched effective week ending 28th April 2016.
During the week an additional 18,606 premises had services activated on the network, including 16,718 on fixed line services and 1,888 using satellite and fixed wireless technologies.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/corporate-information/about-nbn-co/corporate-plan/weekly-progress-report.html
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755983
You’re welcome
“the Coalition NBN rolls on”
Good…they found more tin cans and string…
“the ‘haters gonna hate’”
No hate here…just disgust and sadness.
“haters gonna hate”
The newest 3 word slogan… ROFL
BTW alain… you forgot here in Australia that even on the back of all of the start up planning, contracts, infrastructure etc, put in place by MQ & Co…
After 2 years of FTTN nothingness (and a continuation of MQ great work) … we are still awaiting the promised 25Mbps to all Aussies by 2016, fully costed MTM at $29.5B…
Oh that’s right, it’s now as much as $100B and maybe as long as 10 years to complete.
You’re welcome, apology accepted.
156 days to go. Tick tock.
Very soon Australia will just be a big rock in the Pacific Ocean
At least the luddites can mine it :/
Wow, in one week they accomplished 0.037 percent of the job. At that rate, they can have the roll-out completed in only around 2000 more weeks. Please call me in 28 years!
Note on figures: 14K premises passed per week, with 37,632,000 million total premises (Wikipedia’s listing for 2013 NBN goal).
Further note, that the NBN rollout has barely started this does make sense to me when I look at the rollout maps for the capital cities. When you zoom in, you can see that most areas are simply white, even the highly populated ones! http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn-about-the-nbn/rollout-map.html
The rollout is tragically slow. They seriously need to do at least 5x more premises every single week to get even 50% of Australians on the NBN before the next election.
Not even this 15 year old Australian tech whiz-kid Ben-Pasternak and his mom are interested in Australia’s political communications network abomination.
Moved to New York and now a millionaire already
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/smartphone-apps/how-aussie-16yearold-ben-pasternak-became-ceo-of-his-own-startup-flogg-inc-20160414-go674s.html
In all fairness, that is probably more due to our risk averse investment nature in Australia, and our limits on needing to be 18+ to start a company.
Not in my case it wasn’t. I fled to the U.S. in 2005
Obviously you don’t yet understand the reason
Australia is a technical backwater! It’s a fricking joke.
@Snow Crash,
“Australia is a technical backwater!
—-
Due to the Coalition clowns & businesses that think in the same vain
—-
It’s a fricking joke.”
Looked to amend your statement slightly ;)
You left having endured a number of Coalition as government years, selling off all our good assets,(including good monopoly assets, aka Telstra) & stripping back sciences & investment in Australia.
And now you & we, are seeing it happen again,(Coalition 1st & 2nd term).
The Coalition just don’t give a shit about Australia, just the increase in pay-packet & added prestige of being in government.
Ps. With the piss-poor funding our sciences get these days, they still manage to do a lot of great work.
It’s all Coalition holding us back from a proper innovative, creative, tech future.
Coalition could’ve let FTTP @ 93% stand & just tweak the edges & blame labor for any over-runs etc.,(they blame Labor for everything else) but nope, it had to be destroyed.
Please don’t slag off our country & people;
Just the Coalition, visionless business lackys & those that keep voting the Coalition & fringe aligning parties,(Coalition pref’ers) in the elections – They’re the ones deserving of scorn.
Later, RIPP :)
I am NOT going to change my mind!!!
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/29/4-6-million-jobs-risk-without-future-ready-workforce/#comment-756485
@Snow Crash
Writing simply; “I agree” in reply & then supplying your link would’ve saved some typing & been a less confusing statement ;)
SNOW CRASH QUOTE,(from link provided):
“The Howard Government sold out on ICT professionals almost twenty years ago. Thousands have fled the country or turned their hand to another occupation.
The industry and the whores in Canberra flooded the country with 457 slave labour.”
“While they were bleating “skills shortage” an estimated 20,000 IT professionals had lost their jobs.”
Later, RIPP :)
Nailed it.
RIPP
I haven’t given you permission to write my biography ;-)
I entered the ICT industry in 1978. In 1984 I incorporated to become an Independent Contractor as did thousands of other analyst/programmers and LAN specialists. Everything was OK up until the very early 1990’s and after that the downhill slide began mainly because of a economic downturn. The April 2000 NASDAQ stock market crash (the so-called “dotcom crash”) only made matters worse. By 2002, because there was no business so I was forced to shutdown my IT Contracting & consultancy company assisted by Centrelink, Job Network and the ATO.
The Howard government wasn’t until 1996. Because the private sector were already outsourcing the Federal government followed suit and started to shelve all in-house R&D by 1999. At this time was was engaged in a Federal Government contract in Canberra which was not renewed in June 1999 so after 4 years I returned to Sydney. However this was basically the end of it for me because of outsourcing & offshoring in both the private and government sectors. I had to tolerate rampant age discrimination from ICT recruiters who ignored my applications on these grounds because they had their noses in the 457. In previous years I was in contract for any job that I applied for.
1. It does not matter which Australian Government is in control. They will fuck it up. They should stop meddling immediately! The U.S. government does not interfere, nor do they fund startups and entrepreneurship. Venture capital and “angel investors” are private entities with billions to invest. The innovation, ideas and the creativity solely rests in the control of the individual(s). There is decent protection by copyright and intellectual property laws which Australia does not have.
2. The treatment of Independent Contractors in Australia is nothing short of appalling by the “employers” in both private and public sectors. This has stifled business expansion, innovation and entrepreneurship. The Independent Contractor is a potential self-funded startup.
3. In Australia the tech eco-system barely exists. When we got the news that the Australian government were deploying Fiber To The Home, Fixed Wireless and ka-band Satellite some Aussie ex-pats raised a few eyebrows. But it never inspired anyone here to return to Australia because it fails to prove that it will change anything.
4. The Swot Analysis my Business Plan states that Australia is a HIGH RISK. Additionally it poses a THREAT to my business until it can prove otherwise. The National Broadband Network will not change this nor would it inspire me to come rushing back. I would be bankrupt in a month.
Australia is holding ITSELF back from a proper innovative, creative, tech future. It simply does not have the environment, attitude or the ecosystem. Even the 15 year-old school boy Ben Pasternak knows this. Suggest you read the article again in full.
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/smartphone-apps/how-aussie-16yearold-ben-pasternak-became-ceo-of-his-own-startup-flogg-inc-20160414-go674s.html
I left the country in 2005 simply because I was long term unemployed ICT professional. I am too young to die just yet. It’s as simple as that. Period!
I recommend you pay a visit to San Fransisco East Bay Area or Silicon Valley some time. You will quickly discover that the growth of the tech ecosystem has absolutely nothing to do with politics.
@Snow Crash,
LOL @ biography…
Looks like you decided to start on that yourself anyhow,(Free excerpt teaser above?).
RE: Ben,[article mentioned above]
Nothing to suggest he’d even actively looked for any Australian funding for any new venture after the game app he’d created.
Article Quote:
“Meeting the right people has also helped.
When visiting Los Angeles last year, a family friend put Ben in touch with film maker Chris Smith, who had connections in the tech industry and had been following Ben’s achievements in the press.
“We talked for a bit and basically he said, ‘Come up with a project you really want to work on, drop out of high school, move to New York where I live, I’ll connect you with VCs,” Ben said.”
Ben thought of Flogg & followed through with the move with his parents blessings,(once he’d obtained nearly 1 million in funding for the app.,[conditions set by parents]).
BTW., While the Coalition had not obtained government until 1996 they had already started on their negativity & obstructionist campaigns; Especially via the senate, due to their numbers in there.
When in power, the Coalition sold off heaps of decent assets;
Especially selling off Telstra, a big communications monopoly,(atleast for major stuff; like copper, ducts/pits & exchanges) which therefore held back ADSL growth/penetration & any network upgrades, like FTTN would’ve been; MORE THAN 10 YEARS AGO,(to cover Realitys’ selective hearing/eyesight).
Only when Labor got into power… or you could say, when Coalition were no longer in power, did we see people looking to improve our infrastructure as a whole, including our much neglected comms..
Labor initiated a number of projects while also preventing the GFC from hurting us as a nation. They set up an expert panel to examine a comms. tender process, re. upgrading our comms., then when Telstra submitted an invalid bid they listened to the experts tell them FTTN without Telstra would be almost as expensive as a much more future-proof network, in FTTP.
The Labor government listened to the expert advice & the 93% FTTP real NBN was born as an idea to be implemented.
A proper qualified NBN team was created & real NBN after Labor had to play hardball with Telstra for duct access etc., was good to go, for the full 93% FTTP build.
All this time Labor had to survive all the Coalition & main stream media,(rupert murdoch) lies, half-truths & deceptions about NBN, the economy & anything else that could be thrown at them.
Snow Crash Quote:
—
“It does not matter which Australian Government is in control. They will fuck it up. They should stop meddling immediately!”
—
If you think both parties are the same, re. tech, comms & vision for Australias’ future, then you’ve been away too long.
Labor had to intervene as the Coalition had sold off Telstra many years beforehand & no-one was going to un-cherry-pick & do national comms. for us.
Except telstra; If government gave them a giant regulatory holiday, while similtaneously allowing them to strand other comms providers & kill their assets,(provider DSLAMS etc.).
So when you have dirty bastards like the Coalition & a biased rupert murdoch controlled media, it’s bloody hard work getting done what needs doing,(and lets never forget, you also have to deal with the Senate).
Unfortunately Coalition got back into power after just 2 terms of Labor & even though blind-freddy,(not Reality though) could see the Real NBN as a boon for Australias’ future; Coalition had to destroy it.
Labor aren’t perfect, far from it, but the ICT mess is all the fault of the Coalition & businesses that follow a Coalition mantra,(cheap, outsourced &/or shortterm f.t.w.).
Later, RIPP :)
WOW RIPP…. where do I start?
“Nothing to suggest he’d even actively looked for any Australian funding for any new venture after the game app he’d created.”
Neither did I! I wouldn’t waste my time.
Incidently Ben was approached after his game app was published. Thats the way it works.
“Meeting the right people has also helped.
When visiting Los Angeles last year, a family friend put Ben in touch with film maker Chris Smith, who had connections in the tech industry and had been following Ben’s achievements in the press……………”
Same goes for me and many others I know and for many other reasons including my tech and business experience. The U.S. has specific immigration requirements. All my U.S contacts, advisors, VCs and government were made over a period of 3-4 years while I was long-term unemployed in Australia via this thing called the Internet! All I had to do is catch a flight to L.A. Within 2 weeks all the legal stuff (immigration and company formation) was done and USD$1.5 million in the bank and I was good to go.
I have no idea why you posted some of the remaining comments. Australia is very much in the public eye internationally. Other countries have newspapers and the Internet too you know. Everyone worldwide knows nothing innovative will be coming out of Australia and made international laughing stock over the antics of the last decade.
“If you think both parties are the same, re. tech, comms & vision for Australias’ future, then you’ve been away too long.”
FFS. There is no vision for Australia’s tech future.
“So when you have dirty bastards like the Coalition & a biased rupert murdoch controlled media, it’s bloody hard work getting done what needs doing,(and lets never forget, you also have to deal with the Senate).”
Newscorpse and 21st Century Fox are both U.S. business entities. Haven’t you heard of Fox News in the U.S.? They don’t control U.S. Telecommunications. The FCC would eat them for breakfast.
“Labor aren’t perfect, far from it, but the ICT mess is all the fault of the Coalition & businesses that follow a Coalition mantra,(cheap, outsourced &/or shortterm f.t.w.).”
I couldn’t stand Conroy and for very good reason. But I shall not get into those reasons here.
When Australia stops playing infantile political football with technology like a bunch of retards I might change my mind. But I won’t hold my breath. Until then…..
I won’t be returning to Australia even for retirement and my Australian passport (now invalid) is not worth the paper it’s written on.
I would like to know how these much publicised upgrades to speed are going to be useful to mainstream users (be it business or individuals) when the model for the NBN has been designed around charging for speed rather than access…. I’m not just talking about the retail package for the client but also the costs of the ISP to access bandwidth on the NBN Co network.
I think as long as the business model is run this way we will not have true high speed connectivity. We will continue to have High Speed plans with “up to” in the small print and heavily congested networks accessing only a fraction of the systems available potential.
“I think as long as the business model is run this way we will not have true high speed connectivity”
I agree…but consider, to change a policy can take a day. To change a network would take many years…
It is imperative that we change to FTTP (though this is more of a lament now instead of an imperative) in order to remain relative globally as even a candidate for innovation of some kind (the ship of being a leader in innovation has truly sailed after this election). I agree that we also need to change the operations model, but that is orders of magnitude easier to do…
DOCSIS 3.1 is being adopted in major overseas telco markets — glad to know NBNco is operating right at the forefront of new technology in terms of new infrastructure investments.
Well it’s good to see your comments living up to your name, utter tosh!
D3.1 has been trialled but most cable operators are planning to over build their own networks with FTTP!
“DOCSIS 3.1 is being adopted in major overseas telco markets”
Really? Can you please point to a commercial rollout that has occurred?
“glad to know NBNco is operating right at the forefront of new technology in terms of new infrastructure investments”
You say that as if it is always a good thing…you could say the same if they chose tin cans with a new type of string, which in this case might be a better infrastructure. :)
@ Tosh,
“…glad to know NBNco is operating right at the forefront of new technology in terms of new infrastructure investments.”.
Rooly like copper?
But I digress…
As I know your previous comments, as I do your twins’… IIRC, one of the reasons you apparently supported MTM was because there wasn’t any talk of throwing extra tax payer dollars at upgrading HFC (regardless of ownership). Now you laud such upgrade costs?
Do all of you retrograde thinkers always flip flop on your previous stances, dependent upon the ideology of government and the accompanying narrative?
Rhetorical… we know the answer.
You also supported MTM because…
It wasn’t a government monopoly
It didn’t re-nationalisation fixed-line (you know commies and all that)
It had private ownership of fixed networks
It had multiple competing platforms?
And how about those tens of $bs in cost blow outs and 4 year timeframe hold ups in relation to the faster, cheaper…?
In conclusion what I’m asking champ… is how’s all of your previous wet dreaming BS, going for you now? Do you feel used and foolish?
You should.
You’re welcome
*crickets*
Must be abundant within the wing nut, safety bubble.
How much will DOCSIS3.1 cost? To prepare the wiring, the fibre, the coax, the lead ins. For what realistic speed? How does that compare to the cost of the plebs’ crap FTTN?
Many MDUs don’t have an HFC backbone installed, so the cost of these lead-ins needs to be included.
“How much will DOCSIS3.1 cost?”
It has yet to be rolled out successfully on a commercial basis, so we don’t really know. We do know that the cost to operate and maintain it is close to 13 times more expensive than FTTP, but we are not sure of the final rollout cost as there are many variables to be tested…
…. and not only that……
HFC does not support municipal Smart City applications, such as those currently being piloted in City of Adelaide.
http://investadelaide.com.au/why-adelaide/adelaide-smart-city/
The Internet is not just for your lowly home web browsing and email usage you know. ?
Should it come as some surprise that the report commissioned by the HFC-friendly NBNCo is also HFC-friendly? Guess we should all buy yachts with the people who do our performance evaluations…
In the mean time in the real world of the Australian NBN rollout.
NBN Co has opened its first commercial services on Telstra’s hybrid-fibre coaxial (HFC) network, offering retail service providers access to around 2300 premises in the Ocean Reef suburb of Western Australia.
……
Telstra’s HFC network will make up the bulk of NBN Co’s four-million premises HFC network. About 900,000 premises are expected to be ready for service by June next year
http://www.itnews.com.au/news/nbn-co-sends-first-telstra-hfc-site-live-431834
On stand by for some more spitting abuse from the three years and counting of denial that the Labor NBN FTTP fantasy stopped in 2013 MtM haters.
What only 900,000 by next year when they where suppose to connect 2.6m this year. How much of a % missed target is that?
That’s not the latest estimate as you well know , refer to CP 16 for the latest estimates.
Di they or did they no miss there orignal target you keep claim about labor apparently missing 50% of there target. I am just asking what is the % missed of the orignal target. Becuase it looks more than 50% doesn’t it.
But please keep putting up the detour signs.
Did you vote for the Coalition at the election earlier this month because of the HFC estimate in the SR from December 2013?, that’s silly because CP 16 published in 2015 had the latest HFC estimates.
Lol devoid trying to detour again.
So for a third time what is the missed % of the orignal target for HFC this its a simple question.
@ JK
He’s obviously admitting the SR was a sham (like we already knew – so he’s again years behind us all) and that the SR simply can’t be trusted.
Exactly as another who isn’t here, so I won’t mention his name (the writer of MTM ;) did with the CBA. Once the figures were used from within to disprove his cherry-picked BS…he dropped it quicker than the Libs/Labs drop PM’s.
But whilst we can’t now (but we could before – lol) believe the SR and we can’t now believe the CBA (but we could before – lol – so why TF did we pay big tax payer $’s for them) we can and must totally trust CP16.
Well at least until the next lot of blow outs, hold ups and DOCSIS and g.fast upgrade costs (*sigh*) within the next CP or the next again… when for all intents and purposes they’ll drop the UP TO…lol $56B and the stickler will look even more foolish than usual… if that’s at all possible.
June 2017 seems to be after 31 December, 2016.
More real world facts from Australia.
there were 1,136,346 million active NBN services at June 30, 2016, an increase of nearly 200,000 since the last figures were released in April. Most of the increase was in fibre to the node [FTTN] connections, which increased by 66,103 over 12 weeks.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/number-of-aussie-homes-connected-to-nbn-passes-one-million-20160729-gqgost.html
Here’s another fact, just because they are building a lot of something doesn’t make it good, FTTN is still a waste of money and will hurt our economy in the long run!
That’s not a fact, that’s called conjecture.
@ alain
Incorrect… 100% for consistency if SFA else.
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-755656
Prove this wrong then prove yourself right.
But, but, but, MTM get’s us off “slow ADSL”… oh the same “slow” ADSL you said was fine for everyone and would be way into the future, only a few years ago.
Oh please… my sides are splitting with laughter at you again and it didn’t cost a cent… Sorry Rupert no Comedy Channel required whilst alain is in da house.
You’re welcome
Nailed it.
ROFL… alain
The first person to say Comcast, UK and Denmark (above) to divert, now wants to emphasise Australia…
Seriously get a grip (or better still release “that” grip)…
One million homes eh… So what you are telling us is they now only have “UP TO (lol)” 8 million more to reach by the end of the year to fulfil the promise of to all by 2016?
Oh but CP13, but revision…but, but, but…LOL
http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/nbn-set-to-announce-cost-blowout-20150823-gj5ze3.html
http://www.smh.com.au/business/nbn-worth-27-billion-despite-56-billion-construction-cost-says-pwc-20160217-gmwbd5.html
CP16 ;)
“Most of the increase was in fibre to the node [FTTN] connections, which increased by 66,103 over 12 weeks.”
So 5,508 connections per week…that is far slower than expected or needed. That is like 285k per year!
I believe that even FTTP was rolling out much faster than that.
You believe do you, what was the weekly FTTP RFS figure at it’s peak, as in the peak that was still ‘ramping up’, and provide the NBN Co published statistic at the time for that figure?
https://delimiter.com.au/2016/07/25/nbn-boost-hfc-broadband-docsis-3-1-2017/#comment-756691
That question requires a figure, what was the weekly FTTP RFS figure at its rollout peak under the Labor NBN Co?
So alain let me get this right…
You, who can never answer any of your ridiculous contradictions, ever… now demands and expects me to do an apples/oranges comparison to try to justify your master’s blown out by many, many $b’s and 4 year hold up FRAUDBAND debacle, for you… LOL
GOLD.
I can see it now an “I thought so, or bit awkward, or other childish reply (but still no answers to those contradiction) – think pigeon, chessboard, strut, after this.
But really, I mean really, who in their right mind would even consider it fair, doing such a comparison and then want to beat their chest in comparing a start up/from scratch NBNCo rolling out the claimed slower FTTP… to the ride on NBNCo’s back NBN™, rolling out the supposed faster FTTN, with all the start up work already done for them by NBNCo…
A. No one … in their right mind.
Q. So do you? Careful it’s a loaded question.
No one is that petty and ridiculous, to do such a comparison and think it pertinent, are they?
I stand corrected I do know of one (other) – the writer of MTM, but then the caveat was, “in their right mind” so…
Oh of course, you must appease the masters…my faux pas, for some reason I momentarily forgot why you are here and also forgot your previous UP TO (see what I did there) 10 years of petty ridiculousness…
Let’s remember the promise alain… cheaper and faster = fully costed, $29.5B to all by 2016…that was the trade off for complete MTM inferiority. Anything after this, rational people start to question the legitimacy of such inferiority (which is why you haven’t ;) vs, cost time, ROI, benefits etc… but not you, you want an apples/oranges comparison… wow.
So you can rant on about revisions/CP16 to desperately unsuccessfully attempt to justify your masters fuck ups, all you like, but with every tail between the legs revision upwards, it makes FTTN an even sillier and sillier )if that’s possible) option and the transition away from FTTP fucking lunacy…
BTW do you think FTTP is the end goal? No it’s not a loaded question. I ironically, only know of one person who doesn’t, ATM.
I can again foresee brilliance in reply (by brilliance I of course mean a WTF are you on – detour, move goal posts, childish waffle, about……… now).
So you do it, go on, compare the start up NBNCo rolling out (what you would claim is slower more expensive FTTP) without factoring in any start up costs, times, etc… to the completely ride on the start ups back, sans start up costs, supposed cheaper faster NBN™…
If it get’s you as aroused as winning the lucky door prise of a lap dance with Chopper Bronnie at a Lib junket.
GO we await with bated breath as to how out there your possible (but not probable) childish response may be… don’t let me down now, ata boy.
Remember to channel your previous gem/evergreen words – “before roads there were no roads” – and updated just the other day… “slow ADSL is good enough for everyone”
You’re welcome.
BTW Rizz is obviously Chas too or vice versa…
You’re welcome
“what was the weekly FTTP RFS figure at it’s peak”
A little over 15,000 premises per week…with spurts that hit 25,000 per week.
http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/6905096/data/exploding-malcolm-turnbull%25E2%2580%2599s-myths-to-pm-data.pdf
The references are at the bottom of the paper…
That’s not RFS figures, but you know that.
Haters gonna hate.
You’re welcome
“That’s not RFS figures, but you know that”
Do I now…why don’t you prove that one first as I think you are just fishing.
It sure looks like RFS to me, but if you can show why it is not, I am willing to read any link you post.
Please note that that was as much as 5 times faster…
So all we can gather from alain’s response and subsequent *crickets* is… is naaah and then he ran home to mum…?
Well I for one am convinced :/
The newly-reformed NBNco is awesome. The new infrastructure rollout is awesome. HFC is awesome. This article is awesome.
Didn’t know a blowout of $27B from the newly-reformed nbnco is awesome
I’m “Mad as hell” about it.
“awesome”
“You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means” – Inigo
This must be a new definition of the word “awesome” i was previously not aware of! ?
#HFCRolloutMatters
It didn’t before… you supported reuse “only”…
But like your clones, it’s a woman’s prerogative, eh?
Proposition:
nbn™ > nbn
Proof:
Consider the general case:
nbnᵇ > nbn is known to be true for all b > 1.
TM (terametre) = 10¹² >1. It follows that:
nbn™ > nbn.
Conclusion:
NBN™ is mathematically superior to its previous incarnation.
You just eclipsed “before roads there were no roads” as the silliest comment ever, Tosh…*golfclap*
But then, we all know you are just flaming, so it doesn’t really count.
But bravo nonetheless.
You’re welcome.
Just because DOCSIS 3.1 *can* do 10Gbps symmetric doesn’t mean it will be deployed in that fashion.
DOCSIS 3 can do up to 40Mbps upstream – but try to find an Australia HFC provider (both of whom state their network is DOCSIS 3) who will offer you those speeds. Theoretical capability is not the same as deployed capacity.
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