Multi-dwelling units a major issue for the NBN

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The following opinion/analysis piece is by Tony Brown (Twitter), a senior analyst with Informa Telecoms & Media. It originally appeared on Brown’s blog and is replicated here with his permission.

opinion In Asia Pacific, only two countries are undertaking nationwide government-backed rollouts of an FTTH-based national broadband network (NBN): Singapore and Australia, markets that could scarcely be more different in terms of geographic size and suitability for ubiquitous FTTH-network deployment.

Since Singapore’s NBN deployment is in a far more advanced stage than the Australian version – which is being deployed by the National Broadband Network Company (NBN Co.) – the Singaporean rollout can offer some indication to NBN Co. of what can be expected on the long road ahead.

In Singapore’s case, the principal problem that OpenNet – the SingTel-led consortium that is responsible for building, managing and operating the Singaporean NBN – is experiencing is the difficulty of gaining access to multiple-dwelling units (MDUs) such as high-rise apartment buildings and other large housing complexes to install FTTH connections, a problem that will be familiar to many other FTTH-network operators in the region. Although Singapore’s NBN has been connected to about three-quarters of the country’s buildings, as of end-June the network had just 40,200 subscriptions, well behind the government’s original expectations.

MDUs cause problems
The principal reason for the slow take-up has been the fact that many building owners have yet to give permission for OpenNet to install last-mile FTTH connections in their buildings, meaning that the country’s NBN retail-service providers are unable to offer services in many buildings.

According to data from the Infocomm Development Authority of Singapore, as of November 2010 about 90% of management/corporation-strata title (MCST) owners of MDUs contacted by OpenNet had rejected OpenNet’s offer to install FTTH connections in their buildings.
A renewed effort by OpenNet has improved the acceptance rate: As of end-August the firm had contacted 47% of the owners of the country’s MDUs, half of which have since completed their NBN installations. The rest have yet to give approval for installation.

OpenNet has yet to establish contact with the remaining 53% of MCST owners in the country, and it looks unlikely that they will be any more forthcoming than the initial batch contacted by OpenNet with regard to last-mile NBN installation, though OpenNet is working with the government to solve the problem of gaining access to MDUs.

Although OpenNet – in truly efficient Singaporean style – is likely to overcome its problems with accessing MDUs and finally deploy its last-mile FTTH connections, it will probably be a while before every household has access to the shiny new NBN.

The Hong Kong experience
Veteran FTTH-network operators in Hong Kong warn that gaining access to MDUs is by far the hardest part of deploying a FTTH network and say that in a significant number of cases it can prove impossible for an operator to gain access to a building to deploy infrastructure.

“Getting into the buildings from the street or up the buildings requires a number of factors, such as forming a working relationship with the building management or owners, and that’s just to get permission to enter the building in the first place,” a senior executive from Hong Kong incumbent operator PCCW told Informa Telecoms & Media.

“From there, you then have to deal with a lot of different factors, such as the amount of in-building decoration that has to be disturbed in order to deploy the in-building wiring. This is actually a really serious but often overlooked factor in deploying network infrastructure.”

In addition, the executive says that one a firm has gained permission to access a building, in-building deployment can often be delayed by unforeseen problems, such as blockages between the floor riser and the entry doors of each home in the building.

The executive says another common problem that the firm has encountered in its FTTH deployment is the need to reinstall ducting in many older buildings, usually because the existing ducting is in too poor a condition to support FTTH wiring, meaning that the firm must spend additional time and money to install new ducting in the entire building before installation can take place.

A senior executive from Hong Kong Broadband Network (HKBN) says it took the company “years to resolve this problem of getting in-building access,” though he adds that HKBN has largely overcome the barriers it faced in the earlier years of deploying its near-nationwide FTTH network.

Although PCCW and HKBN have both widely deployed FTTH networks in Hong Kong, not all firms in the country have been able to gain in-building access to deploy network infrastructure. Most notably, leading terrestrial broadcaster Television Broadcasts (TVB) found its plans to deploy a nationwide digital SMATV network to carry its pay TV platform stymied by an inability to gain access to buildings to deploy a last-mile cable-transmission network to individual homes. The firm was ultimately forced to abandon the project.

The Australian NBN challenge
The issue of gaining in-building access to MDUs will be of crucial importance to NBN Co. in Australia, given the company’s estimation that about 37% of NBN connections will be installed in MDUs, equating to about 4.5 million of the 12.2 million FTTH premises on the network.

In an interview published Nov. 8, NBN Co.’s general manager of operational support systems, John King, told ZDNet that NBN Co. was trying to ease the deployment of the NBN in apartment buildings and townhouse complexes by working with body-corporate groups – the management arms of MDUs – to develop standard processes for NBN installation. Under the current plan for connecting an MDU to the NBN, the company meets with individual body-corporate groups and formulates a design for installation in the building, which the group then needs to approve.

In the early phase of its network deployment, NBN Co. has been running into problems gaining access to MDUs, most notably in the early-rollout area of Brunswick in inner-city Melbourne, where only just over half of premises opted to have the NBN connected. NBN Co. says it typically makes several attempts to gain consent from body-corporate groups to install the network in a building before declaring that access to the MDU in question is being officially “frustrated.”

Another problem experienced by NBN Co. has been the fact that many apartments inside MDUs are occupied by rental tenants, meaning that the firm has to get consent from both the renter and owner of the property before it can install a connection to the property – an extremely labor-intensive and time-consuming process.

The operator says the key to gaining in-building access to MDUs in the longer term will be in continuing to consult with body-corporate groups as closely as possible. The process is likely to be facilitated by the gradual switchoff of the existing Telstra copper network, which will persuade body corporate groups to grant NBN Co. access to buildings or face losing access to fixed-line telecommunications altogether.

Lessons learned the hard way
Amid the hype over FTTH deployments and talk about 1Gbps access speeds and the extraordinary applications that such bandwidth can bring, people often overlook the fact that some unfortunate individuals are out there doing the hard labor to make the technical revolution possible in the first place.

It’s not just a sweaty, boiler-suited technician running fiber-optic cable into an apartment building, either: It is also a small army of administration workers trying to track down elusive apartment owners to get permission to install FTTH in their rented properties or working out a network-installation plan with a confused body-corporate group.

Deploying an extensive fixed-broadband communications network is hard work and can take a long time, sometimes a lot longer than folks had planned for, even in a market such as Singapore, which appears to be one of the easiest places to deploy a nationwide FTTH network because of its small size and high population density. Given that Australia’s NBN is over 10 times the size of its Singaporean counterpart, it is inevitable that NBN Co. in Australia will run into its fair share of deployment headaches in dealing with MDUs. We know that just from its early rollout experiences in Brunswick.

The real question is what the cost of these difficulties will be in both time and money. It is going to be extremely expensive and time-consuming if NBN Co. has to make multiple visits to a rollout site to connect MDUs in the area, a state of affairs that would put pressure on budgets and completion targets. The situation is made even more complex by the turning off of the Telstra network: Although in many cases it should prompt body-corporate groups to pull their act together and have their MDUs connected to the NBN, it might cause some buildings to be cut off from fixed-line telecoms services altogether – a nasty prospect from a PR perspective.

Overall, Hong Kong’s experience suggests that NBN Co. in Australia will ultimately be able to gain access to most – but maybe not all – MDUs with recalcitrant owners to complete its network rollout, but doing so will require the patience of Job and might take a lot longer than anyone thought.

98 COMMENTS

  1. MDUs are a definite issue. At the most recent NBN Co industry forum, the final form the rollout will take for these sites had not been determined.

    The tender to do the MDUs is still running – (and I quizzed them on it at the forum) – and because they are still considering and/or negotiating with the active tenderers, it is difficult to pin it down – each side will have different ideas on what to do, and the final result will land somewhere in the middle.

    It’s an issue that has to be resolved soon – and it was inferred that the final decision on the successful tenderer(s) will be made shortly – (days or weeks, rather than months)…

    Watch this space…

  2. “In Asia Pacific, only two countries are undertaking nationwide government-backed rollouts of an FTTH-based national broadband network (NBN): Singapore and Australia”

    China is widely rolling out 100Mbps FTTH too, and depending on how you spin it, South Korea (they are upgrading their 100Mbps network to 1Gbps)

  3. My brother and I both live in Brunswick-Melbourne, about the same distance back from Sydney Road on opposite sides. He gets 100mbs delivered to his front porch. I get ADSL2 dialed back to “reliable” mode.

    It is with deep consideration and mature judgement that i say waaaaahhhhhhh……….

    Can haz NBN now pleaze?

  4. “it might cause some buildings to be cut off from fixed-line telecoms services altogether – a nasty prospect from a PR perspective”

    I actually think it could be excellent for the NBN… it’s the one certain way of raising public awareness that the Telstra copper is being decommissioned. Despite the outcry, the number of people who opt-in should surge when people realise it’s a choice between fixed-line services or no fixed-line services.

    • That’s an important distinction to make. The copper will get turned off, whether a building is NBN-enabled or not.

      An apartment without any kind of physical connection is harder to let than one with a connection.

      I’ve seen many business properties over the years have their rental price dropped if SHDSL can’t be served to the building. Good comms is a selling factor.

      No ability to connect to the NBN will be a repeat of the same situation, particularly in business premises.

      • @Micheal Wyres

        ‘An apartment without any kind of physical connection is harder to let than one with a connection.’

        You have any evidence to back this up like from a industry source like the Real Estate Institute of Australia, or is just ‘gut feel’ ?

        • You seem to be implying that an apartment without a fixed line connection is just as good as one with a fixed line connection. So if NBNco comes along and replaces the copper with fibre it wont really matter after all now will it? As we would assume wireless alternative for communications is just as good. So residences wont be forced onto fibre as you say, they will have a choice. Use fibre or a wireless solution.

          • “Still doesn’t answer the question I asked.”

            It wasn’t meant to. You’ll have to wait for MW to get back to you as I am not him. I am asking you a question and that is: Is an apartment without a fixed line connection just as good as one with a fixed line connection?

          • So based on your answer “Yes” you believe fixed line is irrelevant when renting/selling apartments. It’s a non issue, so if NBNco replace one fixed line (copper) with another fixed line (fibre) then it would be of no negative consequence to the people living in these apartments?

          • Does that question have any meaning in the context of the subject matter we are discussing other than than you felt the need to respond to ‘Yes’ with something – anything?

          • It’s called a normal adult conversation alian. I asked you a question, you replied, I then I asked you a another question. Feel free to reply with “Yes” to that one too.

          • So that ‘experience’ means that residences that have HFC connected are worth more than those that do not, and residences in Greenfield estates that have Telstra, Opticomm and others FTTH connections are worth more than nearby suburbs that do not?

            You know this as a statistical truth how?

          • Where did I claim statistics? That’s your speciality…

            As for HFC cable in business premises – once again in my experience, it is not very common. People figured out pretty early on that the high contention on the copper coaxial segments of the network – (ie: the horizontal cabling) – made it pretty unreliable for business grade type services, just as it’s unreliable for high bandwidth applications in residential areas.

            It’s enough for some, but that has very much been the exception, rather than the rule. Of all the business premises I’ve dealt with over the years, I can count the number I’ve seen using HFC for connectivity on one hand.

            People just don’t do it – because the “proof is in the pudding”. It doesn’t work well when everyone is using it.

          • Yes yes got all of that, so your statement:

            ‘An apartment without any kind of physical connection is harder to let than one with a connection.’

            …. has nothing substantive behind it to support that assertion at all.

            I could just as easily state:

            ‘An apartment with any kind of physical connection is harder to let than one without a connection.’

            … and it would have equal validity.

          • Where’s your substantiation that it is incorrect?

            I’ve seen it over and over.

            All you’ve seen is my name, and a pathological need to be contrary.

          • No, that’s not what I said, and you know it.

            But of course, that’s EXACTLY how you sign off all your rantings when you give up. You need to learn the scientific difference between “actuality” and “potentiality”.

    • ‘the number of people who opt-in should surge when people realise it’s a choice between fixed-line services or no fixed-line services.’

      Interesting perspective on a ‘surge’, NBN uptake has and always will be about removing choice, then and only then can Conroy and Labor brag about the ‘amazing’ uptake figures for the NBN FTTH.

      Also any comparison to the rest of the world is invalid because of this, Australia is the only country shutting down existing working infrastructure, paying their corporate owners to do so so that the respective customers bases are forced to use the NBN.

      • “Australia is the only country shutting down existing working infrastructure, paying their corporate owners to do so so that the respective customers bases are forced to use the NBN.”

        Telstra has not maintained the copper, alain. The most recent effort is “top hat” which is only now addressing many hundreds of poorly connected CMUXs to try and squeeze more life out of the under-invested copper.

        It’s also a method to ensure the stupid ‘horserace’ results of the HFC deployment between Optus and Telstra are not repeated. Never mind access to ducts and runs that offset some of that money.

        Copper has a shelf life that most countries are only now realising is fast coming to an end. There is no sin in being one of the first countries to address this, rather than the last.

        Copper access within MDU’s is still currently a big problem. Ask anyone trying to get a naked service. Typically it’s painful. That’s typically. Today.

        Government have an opportunity to look at legislation and process to simplify the problem of how MDU access and rights are broken out. Standardising a model that can be replicated out to MDU’s in general also makes it a predictable process.

        That’s a good thing to sort out. Sooner rather than later.

        • ‘Telstra has not maintained the copper, alain.’

          That’s not really a relevant response to my point anyway, copper is not being shut down because it doesn’t work anymore, the copper is being shut down because the taxpayer is paying Telstra to shut it down and move their copper customers both retail and wholesale onto the NBN.

          To assert it was something Telstra was going to do voluntarily anyway because they had ‘given up’ maintaining it and they had no interest in upgrading the infrastructure to FTTN is totally untrue.

          ‘ The most recent effort is “top hat” which is only now addressing many hundreds of poorly connected CMUXs to try and squeeze more life out of the under-invested copper.’

          I don’t know what you mean by ‘underinvested copper’, if the copper is so bad as you make out why are iiNet and TPG still rolling out more exchnage based DSLAM’s in 2011?

          “It’s also a method to ensure the stupid ‘horserace’ results of the HFC deployment between Optus and Telstra are not repeated.”

          Well the taxpayer didn’t have to bankroll those rollouts, if Telstra and Optus burnt money rolling out HFC cable that’s their problem.

          Also makes you wonder why Telstra are bothering to offer their 100Mbps cable product to more residences though.

          “Copper has a shelf life that most countries are only now realising is fast coming to an end. There is no sin in being one of the first countries to address this, rather than the last.”

          That’s a nice piece of spin to justify what is happening here and only here, we are addressing the copper shelf life problem by forcing residences who are quite happy with copper onto fibre.

          “Copper access within MDU’s is still currently a big problem. Ask anyone trying to get a naked service. Typically it’s painful. That’s typically. Today.”

          Why is a Naked service within MDU’s a problem as distinct from standard ADSL? – it’s the same piece of copper to the exchange, and the Naked DSL service is all at the exchange level where it is switched to a ULL.

      • “NBN uptake has and always will be about removing choice”

        False. With the NBN you have more choices. Initially there will be four different speeds to chose from with an additional three available at a later date taking the total to seven.

        “then and only then can Conroy and Labor brag about the ‘amazing’ uptake figures for the NBN FTTH.”

        Great. So that’s when you’ll finally stop whining about the taxpayers then.

        “Australia is the only country shutting down existing working infrastructure”

        Good move by Australia, shutting down redundant networks is a great idea. Customers win, ISPs win, taxpayers win. You should be happy.

        “respective customers bases are forced to use the NBN.”

        Currently I am forced to use a copper network. There is no choice. So you say I will be forced onto fibre, get faster speeds and better value for money? Oh my that is just terrible!

  5. @duideka

    Regarding your comments….

    100Mbps FTTH deployment China is relatively limited and is taking place in Shanghai, Beijing, parts of Guangdong and a couple of other Eastern Seaboard locations, it is absolutely not taking place on a nationwide basis.

    Furthermore, accepting that nothing in China is entirely free from government intervention and that the operators are ultimately controlled by government, there have been no direct plans issued by the State Council for any NBN-style rollouts (apart from maybe the 3NC policy) and what is being done is done at an operator level.

    Similarly, although there has been government ‘guidance’ in both Korea and Japan about FTTH deployment you could not say that they are anything like the nature of the NBN’s in Singapore and Australia, the rollouts are being done independently by existing operators.

    • Damn! I always forget poor old New Zealand!

      You are quite right, apologies, but is NZ is in Oceania, surely…:)

    • @zorro

      Once again a case of being disingenuous with overseas comparisons, the so called NZ Government backed rollout is nothing like what Labor is doing in Australia.

      ‘The government will be investing up to $1.5 billion in open-access fibre optic network infrastructure to accelerate the roll-out of ultra-fast broadband to 75 percent of New Zealanders over ten years.’

      $1.5 billion! that’s Labor’s budget for the NBN spin truck that travels around to let communities see all that feel good NBN BS (must have a few interactive dance mats on board), the truck is probably on Telstra NextG anyway, and also the NZ Government are not paying existing infrastructure owners to shut down their networks so everyone is forced onto the NZ FTTH, and their rollout target is 75% not 93%.

      So yeah other than all of that they are the ‘same’.

      • Where did I say that “they are the same”, Alain? You are arguing with yourself here, as you quite often seem to do.

        This article is about other countries’ experiences with nation-wide deployment of HTTP and handling the connection of multi-dwelling units; you would need much greater literary and debating skills to even remotely spin it so that you can plug your standard “bad Labor – good Liberal” mantra into it.

        • The insinuation came from your statement:

          ‘New Zealand is also undertaking a nationwide government-backed HTTP rollout.’

          I am pointing out the stark differences between the ‘nationwide government-backed’ NZ rollout and the Australian rollout, in the same way I pointed out the stark difference between the Singapore and Australian rollouts.

          Such explanation is not ever likely to be stated in pro-NBN argument, you could have pointed it out but never mind I filled out the ‘missing bits’ from your glib one liner for you.

          • “I am pointing out the stark differences between the ‘nationwide government-backed’ NZ rollout and the Australian rollout, in the same way I pointed out the stark difference between the Singapore and Australian rollouts.”

            Great. Now let’s point out the similarities. They are all FTTP networks because fibre is the future.

          • “Except they are not all FTTP are they?”

            Which countries out of Singapore, NZ and Australia are not rolling out FTTP networks?

          • I also noticed your little subtle switch to the term FTTP in that response HC instead of using the common term used in Australia FTTH.

            But we both know why you did that.

          • Well done! Now did you see the obvious change?

            ‘New Zealand is also undertaking a nationwide government-backed HTTP rollout.’

            HTTP?

          • Well HC’s sly switch was all about the fact that NZ and Singapore has FTTN, so he had to be careful how he worded it.

          • FTTH = FTTP, it’s not a switch at all, but perhaps you should query Zorro about this instead of me as he said “HTTP” with an obvious spelling error… maybe the “P” was also an error. Look even you are using FTTP now. OMG it’s a sly switch! What does it mean?!?!??!

      • “the so called NZ Government backed rollout is nothing like what Labor is doing in Australia.”

        Wow, you finally got something right. NZ wasted their time and money on a redundant FTTN roll out first. Australia on the other hand get things done right the first time and don’t waste our money on redundant tech. NZ: 0, AU: +1…

        “and also the NZ Government are not paying existing infrastructure owners to shut down their networks so everyone is forced onto the NZ FTTH”

        That seems kind of wasteful keeping an outdated network running once fibre is installed. It would make more sense to shut it down in areas where FTTH is available. NZ: 0, AU: +2…

        “and their rollout target is 75% not 93%.”

        Australia beat NZ yet again. NZ: 0, AU: +3.

  6. alain, you don’t seriously want the copper kept active, do you, even if you could? This would necessitate its urgent replacement, since most of it is well past end of life.

    Besides, it is 100% owned by a company called Telstra Ltd, who have no intention whatever of laying replacement or new copper, so it is going off whether you like it or not.

    As for comparisons, the fact is that Australia and Singapore are both extremely urbanised, but our dense urban towns and cities happen to require longhaul to connect them. We have virtually identical issues within the fibre footprint, i.e. urban Australia, and a smaller proportion of high rise, which means fewer MDUs per thousand connections.

    As a taxpayer I expect government owned bodies like NBNCo to have this kind of obstacle swept away to contain project costs. There should be a universal opt-out rather than opt-in requirement. This gives identical rights to building owners silly enough to isolate themselves, but with far less paperwork and bureacracy.

    • “alain, you don’t seriously want the copper kept active, do you, even if you could?”

      He does. The thing you have to realise Francis is that some people have emotional and nostalgic feelings for the copper network and believe it should be heritage listed.

      • Of course copper is being shut down because Labor knows if residents are faced with a choice the risk is too high that many will stay on copper making the 70% uptake figure that the NBN needs to justify its existence firmly in the category of mission impossible.

        The only way the NBN has any chance of reaching that figure which is ‘tell them they’re dreaming’ anyway, is to force residents to use it.

        • “Of course copper is being shut down because Labor knows if residents are faced with a choice the risk is too high”

          False. It is pointless to keep it running when a fibre network does everything a copper network does and more.

          “The only way the NBN has any chance of reaching that figure which is ‘tell them they’re dreaming’ anyway,

          False. The thing that everyone except you has figured out is that this sort of competition is pointless. There simply does not need to be more than one network, especially when one is vastly superior to the other.

          “is to force residents to use it.”

          Currently I am forced to use copper. I would like a fibre option.

          • “False. It is pointless to keep it running when a fibre network does everything a copper network does and more.”

            Yes but that’s not ‘false’ to any response I said anyway, I said Telstra and Optus are being paid to shut down their networks, you cannot answer ‘false’ to that so you made up something else as if that’s what I said.

            ‘False. The thing that everyone except you has figured out is that this sort of competition is pointless.’

            Once again you have stated ‘false’ to something I never said in the first place, I never referred to competition, I was referring to the 70% NBN uptake figure from the Business Plan.

            ‘Currently I am forced to use copper. I would like a fibre option.”

            Another desperate attempt in a long historical posting of analogy failures, the stark difference with copper is that before copper there wasn’t any communications, the current situation is that residents will be forced off HFC and copper onto the NBN even though in many instances they are happy with what they have.

            They will be forced off because the NBN needs those customers to justify its reason for being.

            BTW No one is forcing you onto copper anyway, ring up Telstra and ask them to disconnect it, or do you need it?

          • “I said Telstra and Optus are being paid to shut down their networks, you cannot answer ‘false’ to that so you made up something else as if that’s what I said.”

            You said: “copper is being shut down because Labor knows if residents are faced with a choice the risk is too high” That is false.

            “Once again you have stated ‘false’ to something I never said in the first place”

            You said: “The only way the NBN has any chance of reaching that figure which is ‘tell them they’re dreaming’ anyway, is to force residents to use it.” That is false.

            “Another desperate attempt in a long historical posting of analogy failures”

            It wasn’t an analogy. Do you even know the meaning of the word? Please look it up.

            “the stark difference with copper is that before copper there wasn’t any communications”

            Before copper we had postal services for communications.

            “they are happy with what they have.”

            They can be happy with what they have on fibre then.

            “BTW No one is forcing you onto copper anyway, ring up Telstra and ask them to disconnect it, or do you need it?”

            BTW No one is forcing you onto fibre anyway, ring up NBN and ask them to disconnect it, or do you need it?

          • “Currently I am forced to use copper. I would like a fibre option.”

            But you won’t have (and, let’s be honest, you do not really desire) an “option”. It matters not to you whether a secondary network remains in place to provide choice and redundancy … your prime concern it that *you* have access to fibre.

            Just as you resent being “forced to use copper”, some may resent – for their own reasons – being forced to use fibre.

          • “But you won’t have (and, let’s be honest, you do not really desire) an “option”. ”

            Yes. I actually do desire an option. If the copper stays I would like a fibre option. I’ve actually said before I have no problem with the copper network remaining operational after a fibre network is rolled out. But you have to face facts here, it’s not a smart idea and is simply pointless because fibre makes it redundant.

            Now if the NBN rollout is canceled will people on copper ever get an option (fibre or HFC)? Options are important remember without them we are “forced”…

            alian here says: “the current situation is that residents will be forced off HFC and copper onto the NBN even though in many instances they are happy with what they have.”

            So they have a choice and which one are they happy with? Are they using both? Or just one? And shouldn’t people with copper only have the same choices or is just one connection sufficient in which case why does it matter that the copper and HFC are being replaced with fibre. You want a certain speed you can get it, everyone wins, everyone is happy, why do you care about the connection type?

    • “alain, you don’t seriously want the copper kept active, do you, even if you could? This would necessitate its urgent replacement, since most of it is well past end of life.”

      False

  7. I don’t see what the big deal is about, if they don’t connect they will eventually have no comms.

    Send the owners and the body corporate 3 notices, if they don’t start negotiating the install after 3 notices, it then becomes their responsibility to get connected, Simple as that. That’s what they will do for any residential customer, why should any commercial entity get better treatment – they should be looking after their investment – if they don’t it is their risk.

    • >I don’t see what the big deal is about, if they don’t connect they will eventually have no comms.

      No, if they dont connect they will eventually have no fixed line comms and that is exactly what the government and NBN co are petrified about. Telstra already faces a declining fixed line market irrespective of the NBN and has done so for over a decade. For Labor to continue a politically dubious project in an environment where wireless will be good enough for most people – torrents excepted – cutting 37% out of your total addressable market is not a great start. This is especially problematic in the cities where Labors declining voter base appears to now live.

  8. More than 8 years ago In japan they ran fibre to the MDF in each apartment block and then ran vdsl2+ over the existing copper in the building. That was fine for 48/2 initially but I believe current tech now supports 100/100Mbps over those distances. As people within the block wanted more they came out and fibre from the MDF to the units. It’s a lot faster way to get the rollout done and achieves the promised 100Mbps easily. A lot of MDF / utility rooms already have power for Foxtel or other reasons in the room.

    Maybe the Liberals will do it this way if they get into power? Or maybe they’ll only do that where cable isn’t already in the building on agreement with Telstra or Optus to wholesale to all at a govt subsidized price.

    • I spent 2008 in Tokyo, and had a VDSL modem that connected to MDF at 100MB/Sec which had an optical connection (quite impressive). Much better than the dodgy wireless otherwise available in the block of units.

      Though I can see why fibre to each unit is a better long term strategy.

    • VDSL within the building might support 100/100, but there are some buildings – even new ones, or perhaps especially newer ones – that have terrible line quality inside them.

  9. Hello, Being an Aussie based in Singapore. let me give you an overview of this issue here.

    Firstly, due to the type of Govt in Singapore, there was no major NBN discussion. The govt just decided is was important and off it went. No complaints from the minimal opposition.

    While the cost/size etc of the Singapore NBN and the Australia NBN are completely different, the MDU issue is very real.

    I am the president of our Building Management Group for our small condo and we are having lots of small issues getting in the way. OpenNet came by 6 months ago to run the fiber from the road up through all the MDB panels/conduits, so I can see the fiber points at each lift well. The hard part has been going from the lift well into each apartment.

    Our apartment has false ceilings in the lift well. Opennet will not run cables inside the ceiling, so we have 2 options. Run conduit along the walls to each apartment, or cut man holes near every apartment door so that Opennet can drill holes into the apartment. As we want to keep the aesthetics of our building, we now have to arrange and pay for the man holes to be created ourselves. Fair enough.

    Next problem is that Opennet will only run conduit from inside the apartment to the chosen wall point. The will not hide the cable in false ceilings/walls. Again if the owners of the apartment care about aesthetics, then you need to arrange yourself for the conduit to be hidden in false ceilings (if you have them)

    We are also looking to see if using a common Internet connection could work. We have asked Opennet to put a fiber point in a common area so we can setup a building wide WIFI type of system. One of the tenants just built a hotel and setup the free wifi throughout the hotel, so has experience in what technology we need. We will then buy a 1Gbps line at $400/mth and share among all 20 apartments. ($20/mth)
    Just not sure of 1Gbps is enough for 20 Apartments.

    Download
    1Gbps (local) / 20 units = 50Mbps / Apartment
    100Mbs (international) / 20 units = 5Mbps / Apartment

    Upload
    100Mbps = 5Mbps / Apartment

    Sounds feasible at theoretical speeds? so $20/mth for 5/5Mbps compared to entry level Internet at 6Mbps/512k at $35/mth

    So MDU is an issue, but is there a real solution? Singapore has mandated any new building/Condo must now install relevant cabling so that it is easy to connect the fiber point. Not sure that is an option in Australia.

    • Great post Eric, that tallies with what a lot of people in Singapore were telling me, in fact your’s is one of the worst cases I have heard about, complete bloody nightmare.

    • It may be that people are looking at the MDU problem from a traditional copper standpoint. For your average crappy Aussie 1970’s apartment block I cant see why thin strands of fibre cant be hidden on the outside of the building, possibly in micro conduits, and coupled into apartments via small fibre-glass-fibre transducers glued to the windows. For internal wiring to apartments run individual strands of fibre under the edge of the carpet or lift the carpet and lay flat fibre, it will sit there for years. There is no electrocution risk so less need for big ugly plastic conduits and even uglier termination boxes.

      For Eric in Singapore where there is no carpet, cut a thin shallow grove in the concrete wall immediately above the floor from the common area to the apartment, extending the grove through the door frame and into the apartment. Insert a single fibre strand, seal it up with a removable sealant and repaint. There is no high voltage AC, no electrocution risk, so why are we following cabling standards more suitable for electricity than light.

  10. Well… There is only one way of of this.

    If its too complicated, then just leave it out and continue.

    Yes. this would mean these “affected” buildings probably/won’t even get NBN, but at least the whole country won’t be affected by the slow down.

    People may be cheesed off in MDU’s they can’t get it. but at the end of the day, if the owner refuses. its their fault, not the NBN’s/ why keep insisting to install ? Just carry on.

    Personally, ownder, house or MDU’s, decling NBN is a kick in the teeth…… Living in last centuary…… Even if it means spending extra to support the requirements.

    Its worth it in the long run. I mean.. Who wouldn’t want 100Mbps connection ?? I know, i sure would

    • The issue of MDU’s in Australia is more complex than that, especially when it comes to upgrading of common infrastructure like communications links within a building complex.

      As detailed in Eric’s experience in Singapore the Government there has mandated that any new building must have the cabling installed ready to connect to a common fibre point for the whole building to use, as far as I am aware no such legislation exists in Australia nor is any proposed.

      This means each developer will optionally decide if they are going to make a new MDU build ‘NBN ready’ or not, I suspect most will not because it is cheaper that way and there is no clear direction from the NBN Co on what to do anyway, the problem also of course is that they have to make the buliding suitable for what is available today, that is Telstra PSTN.

      This in itself presents a bit of a nightmare post build when residents in the MDU’s have to do their own thing in getting the BB they want connected to the unit, which may entail getting body corporate approval if ducting needs to be laid and all the extra complexity as some units are rented are some units are owned outright.

  11. Why do people insist the gov is budgeting or spending money on the NBN?

    The Gov provides the NBN the opportunity to borrow at a good rate. The NBN will repay those loans with what it charge users (via their RSPs).

    ZERO tax dollars. This is why you should laugh when the liberal party go on about “saving” us money by subsidizing (giving) billions of dollars to Telstra and other broadband suppliers. Stopping the NBN will waste nearly everything that has been spent, and they will sell what has been done already at nowhere near its completed value.

    And all those losses will be immediately added to the budget :) I am sure that they will blame the losses on the poorly planed NBN on the Labour gov so this will be a win for them.

    • *Why do people insist the gov is budgeting or spending money on the NBN?….. The NBN will repay those loans with what it charge users (via their RSPs).*

      NBNco’s entire business model is built on extracting substantial premiums from subscribers for higher speeds tiers (with associated higher CVC provisioning). in this respect, the overseas experience can be summarised into two approaches:

      either,

      i/ telcos (think Japan, South Korea) don’t even *try* to extract a premium for higher speed broadband and make 100Mbit the “baseline offering” and as cheap as ADSL, because they know fibre take-up would otherwise be dismal (in fact, with 50% of Japanese still on ADSL when fibre costs the same, it IS dismal);

      or

      ii/ telcos (think US, Germany, NZ) do maintain a differentiated, premium tariff structure for faster speeds and less than 10% of subscribers select the faster speeds.

      this is why NBNco’s business case is a complete fraud perpetrated on the Aussie taxpayer, and the hundreds of millions of dollars of losses racked up by NBNco must be brought onto the Budget bottomline.

      *The Gov provides the NBN the opportunity to borrow at a good rate.*

      that’s a nice way of spinning the fact that TAXPAYERS are GUARANTEEING NBNco’s billions of dollars of wasteful borrowing that will never be paid back. (hence, the requirement for a Commonwealth guarantee in order for private investors to lend NBNco the money in the first place.)

      *This is why you should laugh when the liberal party go on about “saving” us money by subsidizing (giving) billions of dollars to Telstra and other broadband suppliers.*

      the beneficiaries of any regional broadband subsidies are regional broadband subscribers. no company will profit from taxpayer subsidies for regional broadband because the public disbursement merely offsets the HIGHER costs of operating in regional areas.

      *Stopping the NBN will waste nearly everything that has been spent, and they will sell what has been done already at nowhere near its completed value.*

      everything that has already been spent on the NBN white elephant is already wasted (sunk cost). the “completed value” of a white elephant is EVEN MORE NEGATIVE than the partially-completed “value”.

      *And all those losses will be immediately added to the budget :)*

      honest fiscal accounting means that losses from buiding a massive white elephant should be immediately added to the Budget bottomline.

      *I am sure that they will blame the losses on the poorly planed NBN on the Labour gov so this will be a win for them.*

      nobody *wins*. the NBN is an unmitigated disaster for Aussie taxpayers. (of course, if you operate a home-based photography business, make a living from VoIP consultancy, flog network equipment, etc, the taxpayer-funded NBN is a massive boon/windfall. so, there are some narrow vested interests that would profit from a continued roll-out.)

      • … that will never be paid back …

        … everything that has already been spent on the NBN white elephant is already wasted …

        … the NBN is an unmitigated disaster for Aussie taxpayers…

        I like that, use the present tense to make your points seem less like an opinion and more like fact.

          • What does that have to do with anything?

            The Australian selectively quoting from a report that it obtained under an FOI request and is itself now refusing to release. Yeah, totally objective.

          • You let the NBN Joint Committee statement go through to the keeper I see, preferring to use the old ‘get out of jail free’ card – it’s in The Australian so therefore it can be totally dismissed because I say so.

          • If you’re going to bring up non sequitur articles from disreputable sources, don’t be surprised if they get ignored.

          • So are you ignoring what is being stated then (instead of blaming the messenger which is the australian)

          • Well given that they’re keeping the documents they’ve based the “story” on a secret, all we have to go on is the word of The Australian. I’m not going to waste my time worrying about what The Australian has to say.

          • Once again you ignored the NBN Joint Committee report a second time, as I said unpalatable truths don’t exist even when they are there in black and white.

            Head in the sand attitude must help a lot when promoting the NBN.

          • All you linked to was some shoddy journalism by The Australian…

            Oh, I see, you’re not even talking about this article in The Australian anymore, you’ve changed the subject. Funny that.

            So let’s take a look at this report from the Joint Committee then. Is this the one which says:

            “In the committee’s latest report (PDF), chair and independent MP, Robert Oakeshott, said that compared to the NBN Co Corporate Plan, a lower than expected capital expenditure and higher than expected operating expenditure result had been observed. ”

            And, “the committee has at this stage accepted the argument from NBN Co that other reasons are behind this”? I suppose when you get your news from The Australian, that would be dire straits.

          • @alain

            Your ‘facts’ re the NBN Committee report are rather unexciting. If you bothered to read the 2010 NBN Co Corporate Plan the $35.9b figure comes from, you could also find that ~$2b / year capex was budgeted for the 2020-2028. The Australian didn’t ‘uncover’ anything from their FOI request – the $50b by 2028 was already public knowledge. How is there a cost blow-out when the $50b is part of the original projection?

            I also note you neglected to mention that by 2020 the NBN starts making money. What’s next? “NBN to cost $100b” with a fine print disclaimer stating that the $100b figure includes another 50 years of capex? Why not just say “NBN costs to blow out to $1,000b (by 2478)? Funny that we never see a headline says “NBN to cost negative $11b by 2040”.

      • “blah blah blah nobody *wins*. the NBN is an unmitigated disaster for Aussie taxpayers.”

        False. You must be thinking of the coalitions patchwork plan which if implemented would be an unmitigated disaster.

        • Michael Malone disagrees with you:

          http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/KGB-iiNet-Michael-Malone-internet-NBN-broadband-Te-pd20111124-NW6B3

          “He [Turnbull] has laid out what he would do under that scenario and it starts with a six month study of what’s going to be required and what’s the best option, but his view – and I agree with him – is that a PATCHWORK network of different technologies, based on demand, is the most cost effective version.”

          :)

          • “Michael Malone disagrees with you:”

            Good for Michael Malone but I should point out you are making an assumption here, all he says is that the coalitions patchwork plan would be the “the most cost effective version”.

          • hey HC

            are you a paid subscriber to The Australian now since their technology articles you link to are now behind a pay wall?

          • As I explained reading the paragraph they supply is enough, they are simpletons writing for simpletons and past articles prove that, if The Australian want to clarify anything they can drop the paywall however if YOU have an issue with any of the articles that are added to the list feel free to point out which ones don’t belong in the thread (You are a paid subscriber else right???) the very first post says “Feel free to add more” but if you believe some don’t belong you can point that out too… and that is assuming you have an issue with the “Hall of Shame” list to begin with right tosh? It must bother you a little bit if you’ve gone out of your way to point it out here even though you don’t quite have a big enough spine to say something on the forum itself… why is that?

          • whooaaaa….. hold your horses cowboy…. talk about getting defensive ;)

            i only asked cuz i was hopin’ & wonderin’ if there was a way to bypass the paywall ;)

            i tried Google Cache… but it doesn’t work… *sigh*

            P.S. you can start as many “Halls” as you want – i couldn’t care less. :)

          • “whooaaaa….. hold your horses cowboy…. talk about getting defensive ;)”

            Nonsense. I’m not defensive at all. Look at it this way, you seemingly bring it up randomly (I’m guessing to divert attention from your Michael Malone bit) rather than post in the actual thread in question and I am supposed to believe you don’t care…

            “i only asked cuz i was hopin’ & wonderin’ if there was a way to bypass the paywall ;)”

            I would never do anything so crass. I get relevant articles emailed to me, that’s right I lied, I have read The Australian articles that end up in the Hall of Shame :)

            “P.S. you can start as many “Halls” as you want – i couldn’t care less. :)”

            lol, somehow I don’t believe it.

          • Pro Tip:

            To view those articles, copy the “free” paragraph that they provide you on the website and paste it into a google search. Click link (usually top one) and it will display full article.

            (Renai please remove this if it violates something for some reason….?)

        • How do you do it HC, do you put on special filtered glasses when links are provided on stated cost blowouts on the NBN?

          Pro NBN argument always has been and always will be primarily about totally ignoring unpalatable truths, therefore they don’t exist.

          • “How do you do it HC, do you put on special filtered glasses when links are provided on stated cost blowouts on the NBN?”

            Saying coalitions patchwork plan will be an unmitigated disaster is putting on special filtered glasses? You think it won’t be an unmitigated disaster? Wow, so you must be putting on special filtered glasses… How do you do it alian?

            “Pro NBN argument always has been and always will be primarily about totally ignoring unpalatable truths, therefore they don’t exist.”

            You must be mistaken again. This is the anti-NBN argument you are thinking of, you know the one where hypocrisy is a way of life.

          • So that little off topic repetitive agenda driven rant is you saying yes I prefer to ignore facts about problems with the NBN rollout and I won’t even make reference to them at all, and prefer to post one eyed biased incorrect rubbish in the HC Hall of BS preaching to the myopic converted.

          • “So that little off topic repetitive agenda driven rant”

            My my, those are some big words you are using today… you must be describing an article on The Australian…

            “is you saying yes I prefer to ignore facts about problems with the NBN rollout ”

            Wrong again. Who is ignoring problems with the NBN rollout? Me calling the coalitions patchwork plan an unmitigated disaster = ignoring problems with the NBN rollout? That certainly is an interesting rationalisation there.

            “prefer to post one eyed biased incorrect rubbish ”

            Please specify where I have posted “incorrect rubbish”. You cant do it because it simply never happened. Ever.

          • “that you’re amenable to lying when it suits you.”

            No what it actually means is that if I am lying I’ll admit it straight away as I did… Wait, did you actually think I wouldn’t figure out the purpose of your Australian paywall query? lol, you remind me of a child that plays hide and seek, hides in ridiculously obvious spots and then cries when someone finds them… of course I lied, I wanted to see how far you’d go with your idiocy and I certainly wasn’t disappointed. (Hint for next time: post it in the thread and I’ll be more accommodating)

            But more to the point and that is specify where I have ever posted “incorrect rubbish”. You won’t find any examples because they simply do not exist except inside your head. See unlike The Australian I actually check facts before saying anything.

      • “ii/ telcos (think US, Germany, NZ) do maintain a differentiated, premium tariff structure for faster speeds and less than 10% of subscribers select the faster speeds.”

        I’m not sure what makes you think it is a bad thing for only 10% of customers to pay top-level prices? This is not an uncommon pricing structure across many industries – no need to limit yourself to telecoms. Of course some companies will use of premium positioning for their entire brand, but that is a different strategy. The 10% approach is perhaps best seen in the graphics card industry where cards can start out at $1000, at which point only a few early adopters buy them, and then gradually over time they move down to lower pricing brackets until they’re $50.

        The purpose of this approach is both gain a high margin for early access to a new product, and to drive down production costs through the initial production run. NBN would be in trouble if everybody adopted 100Mb/s initially because they’re splitting 2.4Gbps over 32 households, so they’d risk be underprovisioned. Fortunately for them, the equipment cost of switching equipment will get cheaper over time so they can upgrade the active part of their network.

        I would not be surprised if this has a lot to do with the $50 billion CAPEX by 2028 number… it’s not as though the network will be built and not touched for 50 years, there will be upgrades which will go on the CAPEX budget. NBNCo will be expected to be giving money back to the government before 2020 though, so I imagine the priority would be on repaying the government over making upgrades if demand is lower than forecast.

    • @Paul Krueger

      ‘Why do people insist the gov is budgeting or spending money on the NBN?’

      umm perhaps because they are?

      ‘The Gov provides the NBN the opportunity to borrow at a good rate. The NBN will repay those loans with what it charge users (via their RSPs).’

      What rate, what loan, what payback period? – rolling some dice figures will suffice as answers if you get stuck here, other methods like a Roulette wheel or a random number generator will also suffice.

      ‘This is why you should laugh when the liberal party go on about “saving” us money by subsidizing (giving) billions of dollars to Telstra and other broadband suppliers.’

      Well you might laugh if they actually stated that’s what they are doing, they have not, the laugh is therfore on you.

      ‘Stopping the NBN will waste nearly everything that has been spent,’

      Well that’s coming from a firm belief that everything that has been spent is not wasteful in the first place, a incorrect assumption anyway.

      ‘Colaition policy has stetd they and they will sell what has been done already at nowhere near its completed value.’

      They have – where?

      ‘And all those losses will be immediately added to the budget :) I am sure that they will blame the losses on the poorly planed NBN on the Labour gov so this will be a win for them.’

      Indeed, funny how you can blame the previous Government for budget overruns when it is actually the fault of the previous Government for budget overruns and cost blow outs, a bit like this one perhaps, and the NBN is still in pilot mode!

      ‘The Joint Committee on the National Broadband Network has warned that NBN Co may be showing early signs of cost-blowouts and delays, with timeframe slippage and higher than expected operating expenditure recorded during the last six months.’

      http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/408495/early_signs_nbn_cost_overruns_oakeshott

  12. Personally I wouldn’t care if the costs were twice as much as projected. I see a FTTH network as the next stage in the communication evolution for Australia. It was clear that the Telsco’s were not going to invest/ build it themselves and were happy to keep Australia on copper speeds – some even still selling 56k plans!. (Yes the tech got better but fiber is now the future).

    I live in Darwin and think about the massive costs of laying the copper all the way up here years ago for telegraph poles. Do you think they moaned about the cost or where they happy to have communication with the rest of the country? I really don’t know.

    What I do know is that it will be amazing for my family to use video communications to share our experiences of life. Copper just cannot provide this to my neighbourhood if we all wanted to use it at the same time. Fiber can.

    It’s that simple to me.

    There are many other benefits with a fibre network but that one is my main.

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