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  • News, Telecommunications - Written by on Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:26 - 198 Comments

    NBN: 85% of Australians want 50Mbps or higher

    news 85 percent of Australian consumers want to be able to connect to the Internet at speeds of 50Mbps and higher, a new survey released this week showed, in figures which support the release of statistics by NBN Co showing that most new NBN connections are opting for the network’s higher speed tiers.

    The survey, published by analyst firm Telsyte, polled 1,143 Australian consumers on a variety of matters relating to the NBN, ranging from what speed they were likely to connect to as the NBN’s fibre is rolled out around Australia, to whether they would consider switching Internet service providers when their new connections are set up.

    “Telsyte found that 85 per survey respondents had a desire to connect to the Internet at 50 mbps and higher,” the company stated in a media release associated with the survey. The figures back recent NBN real-world uptake figures, which show that Australians have consistently been signing up for the NBN’s higher speed plans, rather than its lower speeds.

    NBN Co’s corporate plan published in December 2010 has previously predicted that in the early years of its fibre rollout, the majority (52%) of customers who signed up for its fibre services would have picked the entry level speed tier it’s offering — a 12Mbps service which is slower even than current theoretical ADSL2+ speeds. The remainder were to be split largely between the next speed tranches of 25Mbps (17%) ad 50Mbps (23%), with only a small number (8%) taking the highest speed 100Mbps plans.

    However, NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley recently told a Senate Committee, when it came to the actual uptake experienced by NBN Co in the real world so far, this predicted trend had been somewhat inverted. “Overall, 38 percent of active services on our fibre network have been on the fastest speed tier, which is 100Mbps down,” he said. “Only 16 percent of the active services on our fibre network are for the entry-level speed tier of 12Mbps.” For the month of April, Quigley said, the trend was “even stronger”, with almost half of new customers signing up for the highest speed tier of 100Mbps.

    The statistics fly against the face of repeated Coalition claims that Australians do not want the higher speeds (up to 100Mbps) which the NBN will offer. “The Rudd-Gillard government’s most notable contributions to infrastructure have been roof insulation that’s caused house fires, school halls built at double the normal cost and a National Broadband Network that’s digging up streets so that families can pay three times the current price for broadband speeds they don’t necessarily want or need and that could be delivered sooner at vastly lower cost,” said Opposition Leader Tony Abbott in early May this year.

    And the strong demand for the higher speeds also calls into question what the Australian public’s reaction to the Coalition’s rival plan, currently based around so-called fibre to the node-style technology, would be if the Coalition takes power at the next Federal Election. The FTTN style of broadband rollout sees fibre extended only to neighbourhood nodes, rather than all the way to premises.

    In June 2011 Malcolm Turnbull put the proposed speeds of such a network at about 60Mbps — less than many users are signing up for on the current NBN infrastructure. “A download speed of 60 megabits per second would be very achievable, along with an upload speed, depending on whether it was 750 metres or closer, of five to 10 megabits up to an effectively symmetrical speed of around 50 to 60 megabits per second,” he said at the time.

    “That type of bandwidth is more than adequate to cater for every conceivable application that a residential user would need. To go from 50 megabits per second to 100 megabits per second in a residential context would be imperceptible; the user experience would be no different. You would not be able to tell the difference because there are simply not the services and the applications to take advantage of that higher speed.”

    Telsyte’s research also revealed other information about public attitudes towards the NBN. Only 16 percent of respondents correctly identified NBN Co as a wholesale only provider in the survey, and 70 percent were unsure — meaning most Australians didn’t know that they would buy NBN broadband services through a retail ISP and not from NBN Co itself. Furthermore, only 10% were correct in understanding that they would have to forgo a copper connection under the NBN, and 70% were unsure, despite the fact that Telstra’s copper network will be shut down under the NBN. Most would be reluctant to switch ISPs with only 5 per cent saying they would “definitely change ISPs”.

    “There is considerable value in incumbency as operators and ISPs have released new plans and bundles which are generally available on two year contracts,” Telsyte consuting director Chris Coughlan said. “A lump sum early termination payment for those under contract will be required to change providers. This would indicate that most customers are likely to extend their contract with their current provider when moving to the NBN.”

    Similar surveys have in the past shown that the NBN policy as a whole has continued to enjoy strong levels of popularity, especially amongst Labor and Greens voters, since the last Federal Election — and that there is currently strong levels of support for the NBN even amongst affirmed Coalition voters.

    opinion/analysis
    There is an increasing body of evidence that Australians overwhelmingly support the NBN policy as a whole and would sign up to its faster speed tiers if it was rolled out to their area. I think it is important that all political players acknowledge these important facts, before we can have a meaningful debate about the future of the policy going forward. Or, if the various players would debate these facts, they should provide their own evidence disputing the evidence we have so far, which is overwhelmingly in favour of the NBN.

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    1. genoFTW
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 10:55 am | Permalink |

      If you offer something to someone for “free”, they will “want it”. This is a completely trivial observation.

      The problem is building the NBN costs tens of billions of dollars, and according to NBNco, to pay off the project costs requires a substantially higher wholesale ARPU than what the copper network is currently generating.

      The real question is will consumers be willing to cough up higher charges over time on NBN access. If not, building the NBN will in the long run impose a huge fiscal burden on taxpayers.

      These are the pertinent facts, and the Coalition is well on top of Labor’s obfuscation of NBN project economics.

      • Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:03 am | Permalink |

        I think I’ll leave it to the Delimiter masses to address this misconception which has been debated here a thousand times already ;)

      • Hubert Cumberdale
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:07 am | Permalink |

        “The problem is building the NBN costs tens of billions of dollars”

        That’s actually not a problem. A problem would be wasting money on a network that needs to be upgraded even before it’s finished.

        “These are the pertinent facts”

        They are not facts at all. They are pure speculation and ill-informed opinions.

        • Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink |

          or… we could could be wasting money on upgrading the existing copper networks. I know which I’d rather have my money spent on. BRING ON ‘DA FIBRE!!!

      • Jean W
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink |

        >If you offer something to someone for “free”, they will “want it”. This is a completely trivial observation.

        Free? No, it’s a reasonable premium over the entry level speeds.

        >The problem is building the NBN costs tens of billions of dollars, and according to NBNco, to pay off the project costs requires a substantially higher wholesale ARPU than what the copper network is currently generating

        The wholesale cost is lower than that of Telstra ADSL ports. It’s higher than a ULL, but requires no DSLAM investment.

        >The real question is will consumers be willing to cough up higher charges over time on NBN access. If not, building the NBN will in the long run impose a huge fiscal burden on taxpayers.

        If you mean a sufficient proportion will take higher-end services (the low end ones aren’t going anywhere!), then the current indication is “yes”. The 100/40 tier is currently much more popular than expected, as mentioned in this article.

        As consumers find that they can telework and access more services anyway, it is likely that they will end up spending less on fuel (among other things) freeing up funds for higher-end telecoms services if they want them.

        There are also other less “essential” things like entertainment that can still be significant factors. If consumers shift from buying discs to streaming over NBN connections, then disc-sale revenue would go down while NBN revenue goes up.

        While these shifts could happen with any hypothetical network that can deliver a sufficient level of service, the NBN delivers the most in every category (speed, reliability, availability, etc.) Everyone in the fibre footprint can get the full benefit of 100/40 and soon 1000/400. Everyone.

        Compare this to…whatever the Coalition is talking about doing at the moment (you get a different story from every politician), and you might get “some” improvement for “some” people, delivering “some” of the benefits at an entirely unknown cost.

        50/10 might be enough for “most” applications right now, but it’s hard to say how many will actually get those speeds with alternate policies. Looking at the NZ FTTN rollout, perhaps 50% can’t even get VDSL due to the distance from the node. A “faster and cheaper” policy is likely to cut corners and install as few nodes as possible.

        >These are the pertinent facts, and the Coalition is well on top of Labor’s obfuscation of NBN project economics.

        The Coalition is well on top of making a lot of noise about something that cost them the election, while carefully avoiding delivering any concrete promises (notice Turnbull’s heavy use of “up to”. Your mileage WILL vary significantly with FTTN. Some homes will get 60Mbps, some will get 10, some will have their connection refused. He rarely (if ever) mentions these limitations in his speeches).

        With the NBN, there is no obfuscation. The 2010 NBNCo business plan was made publicly available, and the most recent plan will be released soon.

        I understand that you might still oppose the policy, but that doesn’t mean you should give a free pass to Tony and Turnbull to say whatever they want. If a politician (any politician) is saying things that are flat out wrong (eg. claiming every street will be dug up, claiming that everyone will pay three times as much), you shouldn’t let them get away with this.

        We need meaningful debate. The long term ARPU and the factors that influence it (economic, social and otherwise) is certainly something to look at in detail, but the short sharp shocks from Tony (THREE TIMES MORE !!!) draw attention away from the actual issues. They dumb down the whole debate.

      • Mike S
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink |

        Where is “free” mentioned here? This poll was about speed choice they would take on the NBN.

        “The real question is will consumers be willing to cough up higher charges over time on NBN access. If not, building the NBN will in the long run impose a huge fiscal burden on taxpayers.”

        They wont be paying more, ISPs already have live NBN plans that are damn good value. Check out Exetel:

        http://www.exetel.com.au/residential-fibre-pricing-mainland.php

        To get a 50mb/s connection with 100GB of data is $55 per month, this includes a phone and cheaper calls than a telstra home phone.

        Another ISP currently already offering is iinet:

        http://www.iinet.net.au/nbn/nbn-plan-residential.html

        50mb/s connection with 200GB of data for $74.95 per month.

        Internode seems the next step up:

        http://www.internode.on.net/residential/fibre_to_the_home/nbn_plans/

        50mb/s connection with 300GB of data for $84.95 per month.

        These prices are comparible or cheaper than current ADSL2+ plans, they are on sale now.

        Check out this list of current RSPs and you will see that all of their plans are around these marks http://www.nbnco.com.au/getting-connected/certified-service-providers.html#fibre

        • Poo2
          Posted 10/07/2012 at 9:15 pm | Permalink |

          I am really shitted off that these moron ISP’s are only offering LONG TERM contracts.

          I for one would like to get say 600Gig of download, for only one or two months and then switch off or go to some truly incremental plan.

      • Posted 28/06/2012 at 12:19 pm | Permalink |

        @ genoFTW

        Firstly, Labor are obfuscating no facts. all facts of the Corporate plan are there. when the new one is released, all the facts will be there too. They don’t HAVE to obfuscate anything. The numbers speak for themselves, if people will just read and have an open mind.

        Secondly- There are 2 arguments here geno:

        1- The NBN requires higher ARPU than copper networks to generate a return

        2- People may have to pay more, and be willing, to ensure the NBN gets its’ return

        Page 37- Corporate plan- Telstra, Optus and iinet see ARPU’s around $50 a month for their On-Net systems (most profitable). Corporate plan page 110- NBNCo.’s model A, returning 7.0% interest on capital is based on an average ARPU, across fibre, wireless and satellite of $34. Fibre at $34 AVC charge for 50Mbps (what we’re seeing as the likely uptake from this poll and real-world figures from the test sites) + approx. $0.75c per user for CVC (at $20/Mbps/month) + NNI and Multicast once the NBN is up and running, at a few dollars per user (say $3- you can work it out for yourself page 103) Makes an ARPU of around $38. This is less than On-net broadband.

        Off-net broadband, is discussed by Phil Dobbie on ZDNet in a podcast about NZ and Aust. ARPU in broadband http://www.zdnet.com.au/no-margin-for-profit-339339698.htm

        In this analysis by Market Clarity, the actual average ARPU across the board for ISP’s in Australia was seen to be $37.54. So, with NBNCo. now seeming to be reaching for $38 as an average ARPU rather than the $34 in their assumptions:

        1- They’re on a BETTER track to a higher ROI than now (with an increase of almost 15% on original predicted ARPU)

        2- The ARPU they are likely to see, on average, is, in fact, $.50c higher than today……I’d hardly say this is a conspiracy of massive Labor proportions to hoodwink the Australian consumer to pay large amounts for things they already have….

        On the second point, that NBNCo. is working on the idea of INCREASING ARPU to increase revenue, thereby people will pay more than they do now for broadband…..I fail to see what the issue here is. Honestly I do. Look at ANY long term growth graph on ARPU for private telcos. Which way does the growth go? Up. Why? Primarily, because of 2 things:

        1- New expenditure, making it cheaper overall for telcos to service, at the same or better speeds, the current customer base

        2- Customers wanting more speed and therefore…..PAYING MORE PER MONTH

        There is already a comment here on this thread further down which has seen that commentor going from paying $25 a month in the early internet days, to paying $75 now, to happy to pay $100 under the NBN. I, personally, have gone from paying $40 on dialup to $75 on broadband and would be happy to pay at least $80 for 50Mbps with 200Gb of data or more.

        This is basic telco business. It is not witchcraft. It is not political spin. The Coalition simply see it as that. There are many people who DON’T want to pay more than they do now- no problems. The NBN will SAVE most people money, while STILL enabling them to have higher speeds AND allowing NBNCo. to achieve ARPU’s of >$35 a month. You on ADSL1 at 8Mbps and paying $70/month for your trouble? No problems, under NBN, you can have 50Mbps and 100Gb for $65 a month. Or 25Mbps and 100Gb for $50 a month. And yet NBNCo. STILL make more than the average $34 than originally predicted as it was based on MORE than 50% of people taking 12/1…..which is simply proving to be GROSSLY conservative.

        genoFTW, please, we ALWAYS want to see more posters, more questions, more discussions. But, please, DON’T assume what ANY political party, Labor OR Liberal, is telling you is true. READ about it for yourself. Do some quick number crunching, read what the experts have to say. NONE of what you have said shows the NBN pricing structure will be a failure- on the wholesale OR retail side. AND the structure is being shored up by CURRENT numbers, as well as polls such as this.

        This is not some big Labor spin ball. This is basic consumer economics at its’ strongest.

        • buildFTTP
          Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:02 am | Permalink |

          +1

          Very well said, thank you for taking the time to educate people on such matters.

      • Alex
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:14 pm | Permalink |

        I just love the way these people make uniformed NBN comments and then typically finish off by bagging the government and heaping praise on the opposition…

        Being so, they demonstrate exactly why they have such uninformed views and their obvious reasons for commenting…

        • Alex
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:22 pm | Permalink |

          Ooh almost forgot to mention the NBN naysayers daily contradiction…

          We shouldn’t build the NBN because it costs too much – If you offer something to someone for “free”, they will “want it”.

          • Hubert Cumberdale
            Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:48 pm | Permalink |

            LOL

      • Chas
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 7:11 pm | Permalink |

        “according to NBNco, to pay off the project costs requires a substantially higher wholesale ARPU than what the copper network is currently generating”

        Sorry, but where have they said that? They require a higher ARPU than their initial estimated level, which they expected to get over time. Fortunately, they have massively underestimated the speed rate that people will want. While the Dec 2010 Corporate Plan estimated that over 50% of the populace would want only the minimum speed of 12/1, both this survey and the actual numbers show that the speed desired and that people are willing to pay for is much higher.

        Remember that the wholesale cost of the existing copper network is very high compared to the fibre network of the NBN…the maintenance is 10 times higher for the copper now, and the profit margins that Telstra require is many times higher as well.
        The Capex of the NBN build may sound excessive, but it is a pittance by comparison.

      • Liam
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 8:17 pm | Permalink |

        Although, faster speeds with increase our ability to have on shore data centers, new media startups, services that offer high speed HD video content (NetFlix etc.) So it won’t just be down to cost of the consumer, but internet industry companies.

    2. Gav
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink |

      Want and ‘will pay for’ are different things of course, but this is certainly encouraging news!

    3. Murdoch
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:12 am | Permalink |

      Thank you Renai, for continuing to bring informed analysis and opinion on the NBN. It’s unfortunate that these articles aren’t widely circulated amongst the general populace. I’m sure the Coalition would love not to see the Telsyte report on any mainstream media site.

      Perhaps the universe will change and News Limited will actually report on it without adding their own spin, but I don’t hold a lot of faith. In the meantime, keep up the good work, and I’ll keep directing people to this site in the real world.

    4. Hubert Cumberdale
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink |

      This news doesn’t surprise me at all. Of course in the real world 67% are choosing the 50mbps and higher plans but it all points to the same thing and that is that people do want and need faster speeds. If these are the numbers now what will they look like in 9 years time? Time to start building the NBN.

    5. Tim Herring
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink |

      The first Internet connection I signed up to was $25 per year, because I wasn’t sure it was something I needed. Now that the broadband connection is an essential part of my whole family’s communications (and even entertainment), I pay $70 per month. I would happily pay $100+ per month if I felt it gave me, my family and my home office more value.
      This is the first survey I have seen that quantifies peoples’ intentions in this way.
      I am sure there will be plenty who pooh-pooh because that doesn’t fit their view of the world.
      Personally I can’t wait! I will be signing up to 100Mbps, and it’s interesting to note I won’t be alone.
      I will also be happy to return to being a liberal voter if they change to forward-looking policies.

    6. Paul Grenfell
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink |

      I want 100mbps at least with 100gig download and at least 50mbs upload and will pay $100pm for bb only and will pay up to $3000 for installation if need be ..and i want it now.. Roll on NBN..

    7. Paleoflatus
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink |

      I think these figures reflect the technical ignorance of most potential users. A surprisingly low speed stream would be adequate for most users and the main problem for most of us is to find an adequate volume (“bandwidth”) at a reasonable price for our future needs. Real-time video viewing doesn’t require enormous speeds and, with storage becoming cheaper by the day, downloading for later viewing is fine at even lower speeds. Very few of us will need high definition video conferencing and HD video with multiple users on a LAN, anyway.
      If you asked me what sort of boat I’d like, I’d probably suggest a fully-crewed 100 ft. luxury gin palace, but I’m quite happy with my present sailboat that does all I need.

      • genoFTW
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink |

        Yon raise a very valid point. This is why overseas telcos have experienced churning between speed tiers. After the initial euphoria of connecting at 100mbps to a brand new fiber network, many subscribers down-churn to a slower and cheaper tier when they realise they can easily satisfy their requirements with 12mbps or 24mbps.

        • Hubert Cumberdale
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:49 am | Permalink |

          Link to back up your claim please.

        • Posted 28/06/2012 at 12:32 pm | Permalink |

          2 things:

          1- Overseas FTTP is CONSIDERABLY more expensive than the NBN will be because they are PRIVATE, NOT ubiquitous AND not wholesale. So when people do, as you say, find 100Mbps is more than they currently require (for UPWARDS of $120 a month- see U-verse and FiOS) they churn to the basic service of 24Mbps, because it is the same price as normal ADSL, but gets higher speeds…..rather like the 25Mbps plan on the NBN….

          2- Even IF people on the NBN WERE to find they didn’t need the speeds (which, we’re talking about TODAY, not in ten years time….so I think that HIGHLY unlikely in 10 years time) of say 50Mbps, WHY would they churn to 12/1? They wouldn’t- that is LOWER than some people can get on ADSL. They’re MOST likely to go to 25Mbps….which is STILL a bonus for NBNCo.!!

          See this is the most pertinent point. Even in a WORST case scenario, where all these people find 100 or 50Mbps is too much and they’d rather pay less (although the prices aren’t that considerable a jump) they’re STILL most likely to go on 25Mbps, which is STILL higher than what NBNCo. were predicting to get their ROI of 7%. It doesn’t matter which way you look at it, NBNCo.’s position is STRONGER, even under a worst case scenario.

          Or are you suggesting people are going to be taking 12/1 as a standard….where a significant portion already get HIGHER than that??

        • Alex
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink |

          Here’s what wiki says about Japan…

          ***Currently, most people use 100 Mbit/s***

          • alain
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 8:45 am | Permalink |

            Rolling out FTTH by the two dominant private incumbents in Japan NTT West and NTT East to highly population density packed cities like Tokyo is the same as the NBN backed Government rollout to 93% of residents in a continent the size of Australia is it?

            Of course you left out this pertinent piece of info from your selective Wiki reference.

            ‘The Japanese model of optic fiber deployment is difficult to compare to other markets. The last kilometre is often done on pylons, shared between operators, even non-telco. This distribution technique reduces the vulnerability to earthquakes and lowers costs dramatically.’

            • Francis Young
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:40 pm | Permalink |

              Hi, alain.

              Yep, delivering FTTH to densely populated streets is EXACTLy what NBNCo is doing.

              They will not deliver fibre to the 40% of Sydney that consists of National Parks or bodies of water. They will also not deliver it to small towns.

              But metropolitan suburbia and large towns are a massively underserved market that is busting to get cheap, fast, robust comms infrastructure to support the many simultaneous activities of the household or business. In particular they will need fast upstream speeds, which seems to me the most likely reason for the 38% takeup of 100/40.

              Regional and rural Australia comprises dense population centres widely separated by large distances, but the length of the backhaul between towns is irrelevant to the fibre footprint, since it is needd regardless of the end-user connection.

              Furthermore, only 35% of premises in Australia are MDFs – multiple dwellings – and this will actually make the logistics easier for NBNCo to complete the rollout than it was a decade ago for NTT in Japan.

              So, yes, Japan and Australia are quite comparable, and demonstrate that a universal rollout of fibre to premises in all large towns and cities is the only apropriate upgrade of the 1950s copper. And we already witness that the new cash revenues from those regional customers are far higher than the naysayers predicted.

            • Alex
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 6:06 pm | Permalink |

              Which part of most people in Japan use 100mbps do you not comprehend?

              Seems those horrible FACTS are getting in the way again.

              http://delimiter.com.au/2012/06/05/coalition-will-complete-nbn-objective-says-turnbull/#comment-444685

          • alain
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:25 am | Permalink |

            Also you left out the high percentage dominance relative to Fibre to the Home in the top three world ranked economies in Fibre BB penetration South Korea, Japan and Hong Kong of Fibre to the Building and LAN solutions.

            • Francis Young
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:43 pm | Permalink |

              Umm, alain, fibre to the building = fibre to the premises!

              • alain
                Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:06 pm | Permalink |

                umm no, that’s why they make the distinction in the statistical analysis of fibre connections across countries.

              • Alex
                Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:19 pm | Permalink |

                From wiki Francis…

                “FTTP – Fiber-to-the premises – this term is used in several contexts: as a blanket term for both FTTH and FTTB, or where the fiber network includes both homes and small businesses.”

                • Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink |

                  Gotta be careful here guys. FTTH is ALL the way into ANY premises. FTTB is all the way in homes, but NOT in MDU’s.

                  NBNCo. have been a little confusing in their MDU setup. At least now there IS a way to apply for an MDU FTTH setup. It needs alot more work. And, preferably, some legislation behind it to force building owners to apply and get everyone connected. People will pay the small amount for each apartment to be connected. The building owners are just lazy.

                • Hubert Cumberdale
                  Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:40 pm | Permalink |

                  I was sure we already had this conversation:

                  http://delimiter.com.au/2011/06/03/fibre-to-the-node-would-do-60mbps-turnbull/#comment-67145

                  A YEAR AGO LOL

                  I look forward to another education session in June 2013 :-)

                  • Alex
                    Posted 29/06/2012 at 6:10 pm | Permalink |

                    No need Hubert, because they will just gloat that by that time the Coailtion (which of course they exclusively don’t support – cough, splutter, ahem) will either be or soon be in charge… so there, ha!

    8. Bob.H
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink |

      What we are seeing here is something much larger than just the debate (if you can call it that) about the NBN but a clear indication that the general public are much more intelligent than the political parties and the main stream media would like us to believe.

      Despite the best efforts of the “nay sayers” it seems the the general public are looking at the situation and making informed choices about what they want.

      I can only wonder what other things the general public’s opinion upon is being misrepresent.

      I also wonder how much the influence of the internet has been under estimated by those same parties.

      • alain
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:35 am | Permalink |

        @Bob. H

        ‘but a clear indication that the general public are much more intelligent than the political parties and the main stream media would like us to believe.’

        Except they don’t seem to know to much about how their 100% Government backed NBN Co works in the market place or that the biggest communications incumbent in Australia since the telegraph, PMG/Telecom/Telstra copper is going to be shut-down to make way for the NBN, but other than that they are ‘intelligent’ because they got the ‘we want 50Mbps’ or above right.

        • Bob.H
          Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:10 am | Permalink |

          Seems from the actual take up figures there is a lot of more than “want” from the allegedly stupid general public. Most wouldn’t know anything about Dial – up, ADSL, ADSL2+ or mobile broadband apart from cost, speed and congestion. But then do they really need to?

          Why would they care if the telephone service is provided by fibre or copper? So long as it works the way they want they are happy.

          I am sure that what “joe public” is looking at is best service value available for their own situation. They do it all the time. Why should their decision about the NBN be any different?

    9. Paul Grenfell
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:38 am | Permalink |

      Yes, some may be satisfied with current ADSL, but what about future tenants of that household? Children grow up, people buy and sell homes, people move, circumstances change. So thats why every household possible, needs to have FTTH. Its a major plus when trying to sell. Then theres ubiquity, you may have slow ADSL, but what if you mate or business contact has FTTH, ? It severely hampers data communication between the 2 or more systems. Like i said before, its like having a 4 lane Hwy built but with a 1 lane wooden bridge at the end..

    10. Tubsta
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink |

      I original thought 50Mb/s would be adequate when the NBN was announced. I am now at the stage that I’ll take the 100Mb/s plan.

      Buy the time it comes past my place, I’ll probably step up to the 1Gb/s plan.

      You see, the LNP are only thinking 18 months ahead, the NBN project is a national building, game changer for the country to benefit decades into the future.

      What would you want for your kids? A tin can and a piece of string (basically what you’d call the current copper network anyway) or a mechanism that allows for them to do things that they can only imagine without the NBN (I say ‘they’, because some of the ‘we’, don’t have that sort imagination).

      I can remember when I was a kid and I constantly harped on my parents to get a computer. I always got, “What do you need one of those for?” etc. Now they have had many computers over the years and have admitted that it has enhanced and made easier, so many aspects of their life. Who’d a thought that 30 years ago??

      • Hubert Cumberdale
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 12:48 pm | Permalink |

        “I can remember when I was a kid and I constantly harped on my parents to get a computer. I always got, “What do you need one of those for?” etc.”

        I have a similar story. Getting a computer and then the internet was a complete battle. I suggested using the internet for emails and to pay bills rather than wait in line. The response was “I don’t need that, I can just send a letter, emails are not real letters” and “I like going to the bank”

        Move forward ~15 years and I have to be “tech support” for these morons when the internet is down for five minutes. They can’t live without it. One email (not a snail mail) I got said “driven by my frustration with the technology that was supposed to serve me”. SERVE ME. See how things change. One minute it’s I don’t need that junk and the next the take it so for granted that they think it’s ok to bug me when there is a minor disruption.

        In 10 years time the same thing will happen just the technology will have progressed. Video conferencing with multiple people etc. They say they don’t need it now but in years to come they will take all of these things for granted too. “WHAT!?! Why do we need to drive 300km for your stupid sisters birthday?!? Let’s just use the 4k webcams and projectors and have a two house party.”

        • GongGav
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 1:54 pm | Permalink |

          Lets invest in DUttP instead – Dial Up to the Premises. We never needed more than that either…

          In the mid 90′s i got my first mobile phone – a classic Motorola 1100 from memory. It was cheaper to have a mobile than to get a landline connected but most people commented that they would never stoop to having a mobile.

          Nowadays… well, just look around. A fair portion of the population has two or three of them.

          Technology moves on. Laptops used to cost $5000 for something that was 3 years behind desktops, now you can do that for $100.

          In 10 years, who knows where we’ll be. Like you say (and I love the example HC) we might just be doing a skype link to those relo’s and chat away as we wanted.

    11. Belinda
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 11:58 am | Permalink |

      The problem with Fibre to the Node *is* lack of speed.

      See the ATT U-Verse Fibre to the Node in America.

      http://www.att.com/u-verse/explore/internet-landing.jsp

      Their “Max Turbo” product is only 24Mbps down and 3Mbps up

      http://www.att.net/speedtiers
      http://www.att-services.net/att-u-verse/uverse-internet-comparison.html#.T-u53JF5eqs

    12. Soth
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 1:18 pm | Permalink |

      It’s like chosing a 14.4 , 28.8 or a 56k modem…. Oh god that dialing noise is ringing in my ear again.

    13. Posted 28/06/2012 at 3:38 pm | Permalink |

      I notice a distinct LACK of response from the commenters disagreeing with the article after my and others explanations for the Coalition FUD….again…

      Anyway- This doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. Bigger numbers are better for people in a marketing world. I’d say, to begin with, MOST people would chose 50Mbps. They may NOT need that speed, but seeing as the bump in price, depending on your ISP, is maybe $10/month from 25Mbps to 50Mbps, I seriously doubt we will then see a flood to the lower tier to save money.

      It is a great poll and JUST as valid as anything Neilsen and Co. could come up with, but, unfortunately, it will be taken as inconsequential by the very people it disproves their points. Still, it’s always nice to have some market analysis backing up our beliefs. Only strengthens the cause ultimately.

      http://fibre4oz.blogspot.com.au

      :D

    14. Djos
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 3:58 pm | Permalink |

      Im on a budget these days and as much as I’d like a 100/40mbps plan I’ll prolly get a 50/20mbps when the NBN rolls past my house. Compared to the 4.5mbos I put up with now it’ll be pure heaven!

      Roll on NBN!

    15. alain
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:18 pm | Permalink |

      What is interesting about the survey results is that a low population sample of only of 1,143 respondents amazingly leads us to the decision that therefore ’85% of Australians want 50 Mbps or higher’.

      I assume any of those respondents that answered the survey who are on 100Mbps HFC are happy with what they have.

      What is also interesting is that the vast majority of respondents (70%) were unsure about the Telstra copper shut down and also if the NBN Co was a wholesaler, retailer or both, but we can trust them they ‘got it right’ on the speed question and they know all about the actual price differences on NBN Plans across ISP’s

      It’s a pity the more enlightening questions were not asked by Telsyte :

      ‘Do you care what infrastructure gives you 50 Mbps or higher and do you know the price differential on 50Mbps or higher plans over 12 and 25 Mbps plans?

      70% unsure perhaps?

      • Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:29 pm | Permalink |

        Oh dear lord…..

        So….much…..nonsense…..

        Firstly- low sample size…..IT’S THE SAME SIZE AS A NEILSEN POLL!!!! The same polls that show your lovely Coalition in the lead!!!

        “I assume any of those respondents that answered the survey who are on 100Mbps HFC are happy with what they have.”

        Nice assumption. Means SQUAT. It’s an assumption. I could assume that 99% of the people on ADSL were unhappy with their speed. Doesn’t make it true.

        “What is also interesting is that the vast majority of respondents (70%) were unsure about the Telstra copper shut down and also if the NBN Co was a wholesaler, retailer or both, but we can trust them they ‘got it right’ on the speed question and they know all about the actual price differences on NBN Plans across ISP’s”

        OBVIOUSLY people are confused about what NBN is, that’s why there is an advertising campaign (that isn’t working properly). But to say a complex question like that therefore EXCLUDES the validity of a simple question of “What speed are you likely to want when you receive the NBN?” is utter nonsense.

        I can ask you what is the GDP of Lithuania. You might be unsure if I’m talking about adjusted GDP or GNP or anything else. If I then asked you what the total population of Lithuania was, because the previous question was complex, would that EXCLUDE your answer of 3 320 656 (World Bank) as totally invalid??

        “‘Do you care what infrastructure gives you 50 Mbps or higher and do you know the price differential on 50Mbps or higher plans over 12 and 25 Mbps plans?”

        alain, please. NO infrastructure other than the NBN can GUARANTEE 50 Mbps to EVERYONE on the footprint (93% in this case). FTTN CANNOT. Would you like to argue that?? Please, try. Therefore, asking that question is irrelevant, because NO infrastructure other than FTTH CAN guarantee 50Mbps (no, not even HFC) so the question of which infrastructure would you want is moot.

        If people WANT to know the price differential, they’ll look it up. I’m fairly certain they would assume there IS one between 50 and 25Mbps. Or are you saying people believe they can get a better service for free in general??

        What a load of old…..

        • Alex
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:12 pm | Permalink |

          7T, you could have saved yourself much time and heartache by just answering with the first two lines…

          Covered it perfectly.

          :)

        • alain
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:51 pm | Permalink |

          @seven_tech

          ‘Firstly- low sample size…..IT’S THE SAME SIZE AS A NEILSEN POLL!!!! The same polls that show your lovely Coalition in the lead!!!”

          First of all it’s not my ‘lovely Coalition’, I don’t call you a ‘Labor stooge’ do I? – back to the discussion proper, the point I was making seeing as so many respondents got it wrong on other aspects of the NBN is I don’t believe you can conclude as this discussion headline says that therefore ‘NBN: 85% of Australians want 50Mbps or higher’.

          If this Delimiter headline said : ‘NBN :70% of Australians don’t have a clue what it is’ – it would probably be more appropriate.

          :)

          ‘Nice assumption. Means SQUAT. It’s an assumption.’

          Well it would be ‘squat’ if you know for a fact that respondents to the survey excluded anyone on 100Mbps Telstra HFC and I would agree with you , if it’s a proper random population survey across all of Australia it is likely some respondents were on HFC cable.

          ‘OBVIOUSLY people are confused about what NBN is, that’s why there is an advertising campaign (that isn’t working properly). But to say a complex question like that therefore EXCLUDES the validity of a simple question of “What speed are you likely to want when you receive the NBN?” is utter nonsense.’

          Well that is a oxy moron because you are on the one hand saying ‘OBVIOUSLY people are confused about what NBN is’ but they are not confused about NBN speeds and the price differentials.

          It still would be enlightening to know what different speeds those respondents think you can get on the NBN and the difference between a 12 Mbps or 25 Mbps plan and a 50 Mbps or 100Mbps plan at the different quota and $$ breakups.

          ‘alain, please. NO infrastructure other than the NBN can GUARANTEE 50 Mbps to EVERYONE on the footprint (93% in this case). FTTN CANNOT. Would you like to argue that?? Please, try. Therefore, asking that question is irrelevant, because NO infrastructure other than FTTH CAN guarantee 50Mbps (no, not even HFC) so the question of which infrastructure would you want is moot.’

          You know very well because it has been argued before that the capability of the physical link to the residence has little to do with what actual speeds you get as previous quite lengthy discussion of contention ratios, international links etc has indicated.

          ‘If people WANT to know the price differential, they’ll look it up.’

          So these survey respondents about whom you said ‘OBVIOUSLY people are confused about what NBN is ‘ on the other hand know all about NBN price differentials, speeds and quotas – because?

          • Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:32 pm | Permalink |

            “First of all it’s not my ‘lovely Coalition’, I don’t call you a ‘Labor stooge’ do I? ”

            Actually, I believe you have before. But I can’t be bothered looking it up.

            “seeing as so many respondents got it wrong on other aspects of the NBN is I don’t believe you can conclude as this discussion headline says that therefore ‘NBN: 85% of Australians want 50Mbps or higher’.”

            This is stubborn arrogance if I’ve ever heard it I’m sorry alain. You are assuming, that because of confusion on a single point of the NBN, a point I might add the Coalition has been HAPPY to confuse more on about retail and wholesale provisions, that therefore ALL respondents are incapable of:

            1- Knowing what speed they have
            2- Deciding what speed they want

            It has been shown most people know what their speeds are, even if they don’t know how they get them or why some things take longer to load on lower speeds. To say that they are therefore automatically excluded from knowing these things if they can’t answer a fairly complex question about the NBN, which requires knowledge of IT infrastructure, is plain arrogance. You may not be able to understand, as I’ve said, the economic prosperity of Lituania, but you can certainly understan its’ population and average growth.

            “If this Delimiter headline said : ‘NBN :70% of Australians don’t have a clue what it is’ – it would probably be more appropriate.”

            So if 70% of Australians don’t know what the Telstra copper CAN is (and I think you’ll find that would be the same) does that mean they don’t know what they pay OR what speeds they’re getting??? Be decent alain.

            “Well that is a oxy moron because you are on the one hand saying ‘OBVIOUSLY people are confused about what NBN is’ but they are not confused about NBN speeds and the price differentials.”

            See above. I guarantee most people don’t know, regardless of their provider, that they’re on Telstra hardware, wholesaled to their provider in the majority of cases. They don’t know and don’t care. But they DO know what they pay and what they get for it. Again, stop being facetious to suit your terms.

            “It still would be enlightening to know what different speeds those respondents think you can get on the NBN and the difference between a 12 Mbps or 25 Mbps plan and a 50 Mbps or 100Mbps plan at the different quota and $$ breakups.”

            Indeed it would be. I intend on doing a questionnaire myself on a website I’m setting up that asks such questions. Perhaps you’d fill it out when it’s ready….

            “You know very well because it has been argued before that the capability of the physical link to the residence has little to do with what actual speeds you get as previous quite lengthy discussion of contention ratios, international links etc has indicated.”

            ??????? Contention ratios are ONE part of the equation. The MUCH larger part currently under ADSL is your LINE LENGTH and QUALITY. You KNOW that. We’ve ALL talked about it in detail. Yet you choose to ignore it, because under an FTTN, it is EXACTLY the reason the majority of people WON’T be able to get anywhere NEAR 60Mbps Turnbull “promises.”

            The contention ratio makes this even worse. On the NBN, even the entire FSM on 100Mbps, with contention ratios around 30:1 (current working goal), at a throughput of 2.5Gbps, would see people getting above 80Mbps when EVERYONE was running 100Mbps to the max……compared to FTTN which would likely give the minority 60Mbps and the rest below that. Don’t skip details because it doesn’t suit your argument.

            “So these survey respondents about whom you said ‘OBVIOUSLY people are confused about what NBN is ‘ on the other hand know all about NBN price differentials, speeds and quotas – because?”

            See above points. Just because people don’t know how a car works or how it’s built, doesn’t mean they don’t know what it costs, its’ value is compared to other cars and how much fuel will cost for it relative to other cars.

            • Alex
              Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:49 pm | Permalink |

              7T, you know the strange (well I call it strange, because it’s strange to those of us not on an “abandon all common sense political or financial crusade”) part of the anti-NBN argument?

              Primarily everything the anti-NBNers/pro-Coalitonists claim negatively about FttP, applies to FttN too and in a lot of cases, applies more so to FttN.

              Again, it just proves their agendas I suppose.

              :/

              • Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:57 pm | Permalink |

                True Alex…..but you can’t argue illiogical arguments, with logic…

                • Alex
                  Posted 28/06/2012 at 7:00 pm | Permalink |

                  Exactly right mate, because facts and actuals don’t matter to them, as clearly demonstrated by their ridiculous, non-sensical, contradictory comments…

                  • Hubert Cumberdale
                    Posted 29/06/2012 at 11:36 am | Permalink |

                    “demonstrated by their ridiculous, non-sensical, contradictory comments…”

                    Indeed. There seems to be quite a few today too.

                • alain
                  Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:15 am | Permalink |

                  The problem is ‘facts and actuals’ are rarely brought up in any attempts to contradict anti-NBN argument, points if you could call them that are based on emotional vague generic stuff like ‘your lovely coalition’, ‘ridiculous’ ‘non sensical’ ‘illogical’ and bizarre analogies used when you really don’t know what to say followed by heaps of ‘high fives’ of NBN supporter manically patting each other on the back on a job well done.

                  • djos
                    Posted 29/06/2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink |

                    @Alain

                    You are so blinded by your ideology that you refuse to recognize the facts!

                  • Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:50 pm | Permalink |

                    But there are facts in between the hyperbole and sledging. Why not address those facts.

                    And now, some sledging – alain smells like milk and hates freedom.

                    alain’s response: “so you’re saying my love of milk is preventing hot internets. NICE ONE”.

        • Hubert Cumberdale
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 7:42 pm | Permalink |

          “I could assume that 99% of the people on ADSL were unhappy with their speed. Doesn’t make it true.”

          I’ll go out on a limb and say at least 87% on ADSL would be unhappy with their speed judging from the NBN numbers. If they were happy with ADSL speeds they would have got the 12/1mbps plan. Only 13% are happy with ADSL speeds.

      • NPSF3000
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:12 pm | Permalink |

        “What is also interesting is that the vast majority of respondents (70%) were unsure about the Telstra copper shut down and also if the NBN Co was a wholesaler, retailer or both, but we can trust them they ‘got it right’ on the speed question and they know all about the actual price differences on NBN Plans across ISP’s”

        Thank you alain for pointing out the obvious!

        I once asked someone if they liked Pepsi or coke… they said Pepsi but luckily for me their inability to recite the prices of both [bottled and canned] in the nearest 5 supermarkets rendered their answer irrelevant.

        • Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:34 pm | Permalink |

          Ha! lol ^this

        • Hubert Cumberdale
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:37 pm | Permalink |

          Delimiter comment of the year. +3000

        • Djos
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:44 pm | Permalink |

          Epic, nominating for post of the year! :-D

        • alain
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:08 pm | Permalink |

          @NPSF3000

          ‘I once asked someone if they liked Pepsi or coke… they said Pepsi but luckily for me their inability to recite the prices of both [bottled and canned] in the nearest 5 supermarkets rendered their answer irrelevant.’

          As an analogy it has nothing whatever to do with the point I was making, never mind you can always count on the usual posters coming out with way over the top gushing praise in vain attempts to try and give it some credence.

          • Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:36 pm | Permalink |

            Nicely deflected so you don’t have to deal with how similar the analogy was and therefore how flawed your argument is.

            Well done.

            • alain
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:40 am | Permalink |

              Analogies are used when you don’t really have anything factual to say to argue with , that’s why they are used quite a lot in pro NBN argument, the more bizarre the link the better.

              • Alex
                Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:57 am | Permalink |

                I disagree…

                Analogies can be used in two ways…to try to get the message through to some who just don’t quite get the gist, in terms they may be more accustomed too.

                Or they can be used to show another’s ridiculous comments in more basic terms…

                Guess which applies at this thread?

              • Brendan.
                Posted 29/06/2012 at 12:25 pm | Permalink |

                alain, as someone who routinely (some might argue, stubbornly) ignores facts, in favour of dubious liberal “statistics”, in order to propose the world is still flat (and what is wrong with the “flat earth” notion anyway) I find the irony of your comment quite delicious.

                FTTN is stop-gap. It is not the end goal. Argue political semantics and costs all you like, but that is the inevitability of that technology path. It is a dead-end.

          • NPSF3000
            Posted 28/06/2012 at 10:22 pm | Permalink |

            “As an analogy it has nothing whatever to do with the point I was making, never mind you can always count on the usual posters coming out with way over the top gushing praise in vain attempts to try and give it some credence.”

            I”m not sure what’s more amusing: Your inability to see the similarities or your definition of ‘praise’.

            • NPSF3000
              Posted 28/06/2012 at 10:27 pm | Permalink |

              Err… scratch that last part.

          • PeterA
            Posted 01/07/2012 at 8:21 pm | Permalink |

            87% of people prefer pepsi instead of coke.

            70% of people don’t understand, or were unsure of Schweppes involvement in Pepsi’s manufacture in Australia.

            Therefore, it should really be ‘Peps: 70% of Australians don’t have a clue what it is’.

            But, like analogy doesn’t make sense and is the bastion of bad arguments.

            Fucking arguments, how do they work?

        • Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:18 pm | Permalink |

          lol

      • Avid Gamer
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 12:35 am | Permalink |

        “What is interesting about the survey results is that a low population sample of only of 1,143 respondents amazingly leads us to the decision that therefore ’85% of Australians want 50 Mbps or higher’.”

        One could also say the same about “News polls and Nielsen polls” that only sample a very small/targeted portion of the Australian population. I have never ever been rung up once in all my years on this planet to be surveyed by one of these “News polls and Nielsen polls”. Maybe I just live in the wrong area to give the desired result that these polls are after.

        • alain
          Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:49 am | Permalink |

          Well polls are supposed to be totally random, the higher the population sample the more reliable the results, my point about the poll under discussion here is that other questions indicated the majority of respondents don’t know much about the NBN at all.

          It’s like the political polls where respondents are asked if they would vote Labor or Coalition at the next election then asking them another question in the same poll ‘Which of the following listed six policies belong to which major party’ – the results of which were 70% were unsure.

          • Alex
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:00 am | Permalink |

            But nonetheless, you accept the crux of the Nielson and News polls data, so why all the hullabaloo :/

            • alain
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:26 am | Permalink |

              Where is the conflict of political poll result from the respondents like the knowledge about the NBN from the Telsyte survey?

              If you ignore the poll result on the lack of knowledge about the NBN Co and the Telstra copper shut down put that aside as of no consequence because it doesn’t look too good this far down the line in the national NBN build half way through 2012 with a election next year then concentrate on the speed question result because it agrees with your inbuilt biased NBN agenda all the pro NBN pundits are kept happy and all is as it should be.

              • Alex
                Posted 29/06/2012 at 11:01 am | Permalink |

                Got it now…

                When there’s a poll and you agree it factual. When you don’t agree it’s not factual.

                On that note I’m not going to be again drawn into your world of political trolling, resulting in my sin binning for a week and your total banning (huh) … again ;/

              • Posted 29/06/2012 at 1:45 pm | Permalink |

                So alain, you would accept, in general, the results of a Nielsen poll, with often such complex questions as ‘Do you agree with the carbon tax?’, which by your own definition people must understand before they can answer. And yet when a poll such as this comes along which asks both simple and complex questions JUST like a Nielsen poll, it is not valid?

                Tell me alain, what poll on the NBN WOULD you accept? Perhaps one that asks whether people know how many executives it has and where their former workplaces were? Or perhaps one that asks whether people know how many contractors they require and how much they are charging?

                WHAT level of required knowledge makes a person ‘qualified’ to answer, when asked, what speed for their internet, as offered by the tiers on the NBN, will they chose?? Do they need to know where they’ll be living when they get the NBN? Perhaps their job and the number of children/friends/family they have at their house on Saturdays?? These are ALL very relevant to the speeds people might decide they need. Do you suggest no answer is valid before they know the answer to all THESE questions, even though they may not be relevant for many years??

                What gives you the right to declare whether or not a statistically relevant poll is valid because the majority of respondents have been struggling to understand that the NBN is NOT another ISP, but that ultimately makes NO difference whatsoever to what SPEEDS they’ll want for their internet connection? Please, enlighten me on why you believe your opinion is much more important than anyone else’s??

                • alain
                  Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:08 pm | Permalink |

                  @seven-tech

                  The political polls like Nielson are mainly centered on the question of preferred party or preferred leader, from which the pollsters collate the results and make predictions on the primary vote and two party preferred which will determine the result of the next election , these polls are not just a one off and for a while now they have been showing a consistent trend of a Coalition lead with minimal change in percentage points that would indicate any significant shift from that predicted election outcome.

                  I don’t agree with your assertion therefore that if you believe those on going trending poll results you should therefore have to believe that 85% of all Australians want 50Mbps or above when they connect to the NBN from that poll result.

                  Other questions in that poll indicate as you have already agreed with that not many people actually know much about the NBN, that is also backed up by other polls that Renai has published, where it seems most people are quite indifferent to the NBN:

                  ‘The research house also asked respondents whether they would sign up for Internet access under the NBN, when it became available. “46 percent say they will definitely or probably sign up for Internet access when the NBN becomes available in their area,” the group wrote in its report. “22 percent will probably or definitely not and 33 percent don’t know.”’

                  Also 52% said they did not know when the NBN was coming to their area.

                  http://delimiter.com.au/2012/04/16/strong-nbn-support-amongst-coalition-voters/

                  The majority percentage figure of 55% is sitting on probably or definitely not and don’t know, the 46% which included the ‘probably’ lot as well is not too crash hot either.

                  If Labor think that the NBN rollout is one of the few bright lights they have in a otherwise bleak looking political forecast as we rapidly head into the 2013 election someone better tell them the torch batteries are flat.

                  • Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:30 pm | Permalink |

                    “The majority percentage figure of 55% is sitting on probably or definitely not and don’t know, the 46% which included the ‘probably’ lot as well is not too crash hot either.”

                    Well done alain. You’ve JUST showed how one sided you really are here. Look….

                    “The research house also asked respondents whether they would sign up for Internet access under the NBN, when it became available. “46 percent say they will definitely or probably sign up for Internet access when the NBN becomes available in their area,” the group wrote in its report. “22 percent will probably or definitely not and 33 percent don’t know.”’”

                    46% is probably or maybe yes. 22% is probably or maybe no. 33% don’t know. You’ve taken: “The majority percentage figure of 55% is sitting on probably or definitely not and don’t know” meaning you’ve simply ADDED those who don’t know with those who probably or definitely won’t. I could JUST as easily take 46% who definitely or probably will and the 33% who don’t know and get a WHOPPING 79% majority!!

                    This is number fudging at it’s best and you have truly shown JUST how one sided you are. I would not assume 79% of people WILL DEFINITELY take it up as my numbers, that I worked out like you, show. I would say, taking 40 of the 46% who probably or definitely will and maybe half, say 16% of the 33% who won’t, as being a GOOD estimate of those who are, at the moment, likely to connect to the NBN (and I frankly think that is VERY generous to you). Which would put my majority of those who WILL connect to the NBN at 56%. A majority and a strong one too. And WELL above the 30% we’re seeing already. The ultimate 73% uptake of the NBN is INEVITABLE as people MUST go on it as part of the Telstra and Optus and now OTHER ISP agreements.

                    You are UTTERLY stubborn and BLATANTLY biased against ANY positive NBN numbers. Please, refrain from posting ridiculous comments like this. Your normal comments show some modicum of understanding behind the debate. Comments like this show how much of a Coalition troll you are. IT is not helpful for you OR the debate.

                    And no, Im NOT ignoring the comment about the Neilsen polls. I’m just stupendously frustrated at your attitude and can’t be bothered arguing against what is, essentially, a brick wall to facts. Telsyte is a major industry market analyst. You’ve used numbers from their previous polls that have been negative towards the NBN in your arguments. You cannot therefore simply ignore their polls when they show POSITIVE numbers for the NBN. It is, again, showing your BLATANT, non-evidence based bias against the NBN.

                    • alain
                      Posted 30/06/2012 at 10:36 am | Permalink |

                      ’46% is probably or maybe yes. 22% is probably or maybe no. 33% don’t know. You’ve taken: “The majority percentage figure of 55% is sitting on probably or definitely not and don’t know” meaning you’ve simply ADDED those who don’t know with those who probably or definitely won’t. I could JUST as easily take 46% who definitely or probably will and the 33% who don’t know and get a WHOPPING 79% majority!!’

                      Yes you could do that and I take your point, that’s the fun you can have with statistics that contain the conditional ‘probably’ and ‘don’t know’, but I was trying to make the point not very well it seems to the HIGH LEVEL of indifference to the NBN, you must agree it does show that and you have already acknowledged from the Telsyte poll that respondents don’t know much about the NBN.

                      I will stick to my concluding point at the end of that post that Labor have a lot of work to do if they want the NBN to be a major platform winner for them going into the 2013 election, outside in the real world away from the frenzy of pro NBN posts in sites like Delimiter or Whirlpool who let’s face it are in the main preaching to the converted over and over anyway the NBN it seems is does not have a very high profile at all in peoples minds, and what little they do know is mainly incorrect.

                      • Noddy
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink |

                        “frenzy of pro NBN posts in sites like Delimiter or Whirlpool who let’s face it are in the main preaching to the converted over and over anyway the NBN it seems is does not have a very high profile at all in peoples minds, and what little they do know is mainly incorrect.”

                        That is to be expected. Those that have an interest and seek out knowledge of broadband and the NBN have some knowledge and that it is a good thing. Those who aren’t interested or have a political agenda are generally the ones against the NBN.

                      • PeterA
                        Posted 01/07/2012 at 8:43 pm | Permalink |

                        Oh I cant resist.

                        So; Whirlpool and delimiter.

                        2 Audiences that know all about the NBN and the shutdown of the copper and if NBNCo is a wholesaler and retailer etc , are “preaching to the converted” (I will take this to imply that you believe most people participating here are pro NBN)

                        You know what this means (I love this part)… get this, these people are informed enough to answer your survey about the NBN!! So, why don’t we run a survey on whirlpool about what internet speed they want!! Then Alain couldn’t complain that the survey selection was full of people too dumb to understand the question!!!

                        So alain, What do you want, a bunch of people without vested interest in the internet and NBNCo answering a survey. (and saying they want FTTP speeds)
                        Or a bunch of people with deep (or shallow) interest in NBNCo (who you call the converted) answering a survey.

                        Oh god. I just fed the troll. Sorry guys.

          • Avid Gamer
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:16 am | Permalink |

            “It’s like the political polls where respondents are asked if they would vote Labor or Coalition at the next election then asking them another question in the same poll ‘Which of the following listed six policies belong to which major party’ – the results of which were 70% were unsure.”

            It would largely depend on which six policies were on the list being polled. Now if those six were the top six most publicized policies, (NBN, carbon tax, mining tax, boat people etc) then I believe the overwhelming vast majority of people would know which policy belonged to which party. You would not get a “70% were unsure result” not by a long shot.

            Or are you saying that 70% of voting eligible people in Australia are just plain stupid/ignorant/heads buried in the sand when it comes to Labor’s policies?? But are clever/on the ball/intelligent/up to date voting people when it comes to Liberal policies??

            Oh!! and Green’s policies most likely according to you come under Labor’s categories. After all if one is going to vote for anything green they would also have to be just plain stupid/ignorant/heads buried in the sand as well. I can read you like a book alain so predictable, it’s so sad.

    16. Barry
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:41 pm | Permalink |

      Well I’m sitting here on a 100/5 Telstra Velocity FTTH service, and all I can say is – you don’t know what you’re missing (and it’s poor-man’s NBN, not a 100/40 or future 1000/400 service).

      Sure, Tony Abbott may not get the interwebz, and Turnbull may only remember his Ozemail 56kb/s dial up, but actual people actually use the bandwidth and love it.

      It brutally destroys 30Mb/s, cable let alone flaky ADSL2+

      • Soth
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:44 pm | Permalink |

        Ooh nice Barry, what speeds you get on speedtest ?

      • Posted 28/06/2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink |

        mumble grumble……stupid people with access to……mumble grumble…….not getting NBN for at least 3 years…..mumble grumble….

        I mean, wow Barry, that’s great!……

        :P

      • Hubert Cumberdale
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 7:45 pm | Permalink |

        Barry even though you are on 100mbps download plan it sounds like you would like more upload speed like the NBN offers.

        In a hypothetical situation if Telstra offered both a 100/5 and a 100/40 plan would you be more likely to opt for the 100/40 plan if the price was reasonable?

        Also in another hypothetical situation if Telstra offered a 100/5 and a 50/20 plan would you be more likely to opt for the 50/20 plan?

        • Alex
          Posted 28/06/2012 at 8:57 pm | Permalink |

          Hubert you aren’t hypothetically trying to “force” Barry onto fibre are you?

          Perhaps he’d prefer “innovative ADSL” ;-)

          • Hubert Cumberdale
            Posted 28/06/2012 at 9:08 pm | Permalink |

            ADSL? You speak crazy talk Alex. Whatever would Barry do with such breakneck upload speeds that Annex M provides? ;-)

    17. Mike
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 6:09 pm | Permalink |

      Shut up Barry ! I live on the Gold Coast, 2 ks from the beach, 3 ks to the exchange (as the crow flies) no ADSL, only crappy wireless, I think I will go and lie down, on the road.

      • Catfish
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:48 am | Permalink |

        Ah, another Gold Coast victim just like myself. Every house I’ve lived in bar ONE has had no or under performing broadband internet. I’ve lived in… 6 houses now. The Gold Coast has technology black holes all through it.

    18. Dean
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 8:18 pm | Permalink |

      When did alain get let back in? He doesn’t seem to learn from multiple bans…

    19. graeme9851
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 9:41 pm | Permalink |

      i pay 59 dollars monthly for naked dsl im 1700metres from exchange i battle to get 4mbps on copper that telsra will not fix.iinet will offer 100/40 for 94 dollars a month for fibre.NBN fibre is the future im not into politics im just the average consumer.i want faster more reliable service and ftth can do that.94 bucks for 500mbs peak 500 off peak way better deal than rubbish dsl.

      • graeme9851
        Posted 28/06/2012 at 9:46 pm | Permalink |

        sorry iinet plan is 99 bucks.94 bucks for 500gb off peak 500 peak,50/20 speed.not much difference.

    20. graeme9851
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 9:52 pm | Permalink |

      link to iinet NBN plans
      http://www.iinet.net.au/nbn/nbn-plan-residential.html

    21. theslydog
      Posted 29/06/2012 at 7:13 am | Permalink |

      Alex
      Posted 28/06/2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink | Reply

      Here’s what wiki says about Japan…
      ***Currently, most people use 100 Mbit/s***

      And that is 100Mb/s both ways.

      Why all this rubbish of 100/5 or even 100/40
      No poor-man’s NBN!!

      I want 100Mb/s both ways!!
      http://www.speedtest.net/result/678585659.png

    22. rav
      Posted 29/06/2012 at 8:18 am | Permalink |

      You forgot to mention that a significant portion of existing users are accessing the service for free on the high tiers. This significantly biases the statements being thrown around atm as they conveniently are overlooking this fact.

      In addition the majority of Australian’s have no context around what sort of bandwidth is required to do different activities so surveying people is completely pointless as most people are going to go with bigger is best when for 99% of people 20Mb is probably a massive overkill.

      • NPSF3000
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 9:41 am | Permalink |

        “In addition the majority of Australian’s have no context around what sort of bandwidth is required to do different activities so surveying people is completely pointless as most people are going to go with bigger is best when for 99% of people 20Mb is probably a massive overkill.”

        Problem?

        If people go with ‘bigger is best’… then NBNco’s business plan stacks up regardless on whether or not you decide they actually need it or not.

        Furthermore, I find it laughable to discredit a survey as simplistic or ignorant by using numbers drawn out of thin air.

        • alain
          Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:07 am | Permalink |

          What some respondents say in a survey way ahead of some future connection of the NBN to their residence ticking the ‘hamburger with the lot’ option and what they actually do when the are studying ISP’s dynamically changing retail NBN price lists between now and 2023 are two different things.

          Many of those respondents may decide because of the rapid rollout of 4G/5G/6G etc by Telstra, Optus and Vodafone in that time frame they don’t really need FTTH after all.

          • Avid Gamer
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:29 am | Permalink |

            “Many of those respondents may decide because of the rapid rollout of 4G/5G/6G etc by Telstra, Optus and Vodafone in that time frame they don’t really need FTTH after all.”

            WOW!! alain getting a bit ahead of yourself there, now it’s 6G by 2023 including 5G all to be commercially available by your mention of 2023. Does 6G even being thought of yet??

            • alain
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink |

              So LTE launched by to the public at large by Verizon in the USA in 2010 is where all wireless BB advancements in the world stops is it?

              • Alex
                Posted 29/06/2012 at 11:45 am | Permalink |

                http://www.dnaindia.com/money/interview_there-will-be-no-5g-we-have-reached-the-channel-limits-ericsson-cto_1546408

                • alain
                  Posted 29/06/2012 at 12:16 pm | Permalink |

                  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44442743/ns/technology_and_science-wireless/t/g-wireless-research-nears-breakthrough/#.T-0PdJHheSc

                  We could Google, copy and paste on that one all day.

                  :)

                  • Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink |

                    @alain

                    That’s a great experiment. But have you read their paper?

                    http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGsQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Farxiv.org%2Fpdf%2F1107.1276&ei=FijtT9W6CKWuiQf0r52lDQ&usg=AFQjCNEkYzBWJC7Ffc0bGlnMUv6K2fXn7Q&sig2=-Kuzgvb1xMfcXSb5PBfcEg

                    They have achieved some interesting results that bear further study. However, there are 2 caveats to the system:

                    1- They test over a distance of 8.5m. They even state themselves: ‘Hence, recent results have demonstrated that full-duplex systems are a feasible option for future short to medium-distance wireless communications’ There are reasons for this- such as the fact that to achieve said results, at 8.5m, they had to separate the antennas by 10cm. That is an antenna separation to distance ratio of 85:1….hardly very useful for mobiles that are 7cm across. Yes, there will be some gain using separated antennas in mobile….but it will NOT be at anywhere near the levels of 10x they are suggesting in this research.

                    2- Line Of Site is required to maximise the signal cancellation affect necessary for full-duplex. Again, hardly ideal for many mobile situations, or even WiFi. (ironically, seeing as, in general NBNCO.’s fixed wireless is on LOS, it WOULD help in these circumstances….)

                    Oh and I forgot the 3rd. This is stationary. Although radio waves travel at the speed of light in air, mobility of the transceiver makes a LARGE difference to throughput. Hence why current full fat 4G describes stationary theoretical bandwidth of 1gbps (the number Malcolm enjoys bandying around) while in mobile transceivers, it is theoretically 100mbps…..a 10x difference….

                    So yes. I agree, this is a promising step forward in wireless technology…..but its NOT going to be a silver bullet for any mobile wireless system It’s simply another upgrade. Meanwhile, fibre has achieved 2.7Tbps over a single fibre…..

                    This is a PR piece produced by Houston Tec to push their work….I mean come on, MSNBC?? Meanwhile, Ericsson, a WIRELESS MANUFACTURER and HUGE industry leader is putting out a piece that essentially REDUCES their business prospects, to let people know what the future if wireless is so they can plan….yes, let me see which one is going to be more valid in the future if wireless…..

                    • alain
                      Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:23 pm | Permalink |

                      So both of you are taking a punt that wireless advancement stops at 2012 and we won’t see anything further until the NBN is supposedly finished in 2023, I’m taking a punt that it won’t, wireless carriers and Telco’s all over the world know where their highest future margin revenue streams are and it isn’t fixed line BB, ask the CEO’s of SingTel and Telstra.

                      I also predict while we are on the subject that wireless only residences will eat massively into NBN Co revenue streams and they will get nowhere near their 70% uptake predicted in the Business Plan.

                      • Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:52 pm | Permalink |

                        “So both of you are taking a punt that wireless advancement stops at 2012 and we won’t see anything further until the NBN is supposedly finished in 2023, I’m taking a punt that it won’t, wireless carriers and Telco’s all over the world know where their highest future margin revenue streams are and it isn’t fixed line BB, ask the CEO’s of SingTel and Telstra.”

                        alain, you are IGNORING ON PURPOSE, ALL the data that is coming out of wireless manufacturers, wireless companies and telco’s themselves, that is saying wireless will NOT increase in speed over the next 10-20 years. They HAVE to focus on data throughput, because quotas of 2Gb for EVERY mobile user are ALREADY stretching 3G to breaking point and, once 4G is fully rolled out, even 2Gb is likely to bring IT to a crawl compared to the 35Mbps we sometimes see now. You CANNOT separate speed from data throughput in wireless. The SPEEDS are fantastic, but if you can’t DOWNLOAD anything because your quota is gone, its’ useless and conversely, the SPEED might be appalling because EVERYBODY is on it, reducing the DATA throughput overall. THIS is why wireless BB is so profitable, because they charge HUGE amounts for tiny quotas, because they are convenient and the outlay is MUCH lower than on fixed line. It is NOT because people download more and therefore they make more money.

                        You are choosing to ignore ALL statistics that point to the fact that DOWNLOADS are increasing faster than speeds. THAT is why 3G has been brought to collapsing. 4G DOESN’T change this. It is, by and large, only slightly more efficient, in spectrum, than 3G. Ericsson, Alcatel-lucent and MANY other industry experts are saying 5G HAS to deal with this issue of increasing data throughput. Hence, we will NOT see any speed gains, while HOPEFULLY, we will see data throughput increase by a factor of 10. That brings current usage of 2Gb per user, to perhaps 20Gb in 10 years time…..meanwhile, the ACTUAL usage for internet subscribers overall has increased from 20Gb to 200Gb. It STILL only makes up less than 10% of the average persons usage!

                        “I also predict while we are on the subject that wireless only residences will eat massively into NBN Co revenue streams and they will get nowhere near their 70% uptake predicted in the Business Plan.”

                        I predict it is a VERY good thing you are NOT employed by or have any affiliation with NBNCo. Or any other telco for that matter. Because your “predictions” apparently go against the rest of the industry at large. They have a word for those sorts of people- Lobbyists.

                      • Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:54 pm | Permalink |

                        I’ve been saying this all along. All we need do is install a full internet at the bottom of each tower being used to transmit magic. People refuse to believe in full internets and magic because they’re jews. Alain and I know what’s what.

                      • alain
                        Posted 29/06/2012 at 4:26 pm | Permalink |

                        @seven_tech

                        ‘Or any other telco for that matter. Because your “predictions” apparently go against the rest of the industry at large’

                        The’ industry at large’ states that wireless ONLY residences will remain static in Australia at around 12% (which is a very conservative Telstra only figure) and will not follow the accelerating trend in the UK and USA where it is currently sitting at around 26%?

                      • Posted 29/06/2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink |

                        “The’ industry at large’ states that wireless ONLY residences will remain static in Australia at around 12% (which is a very conservative Telstra only figure) and will not follow the accelerating trend in the UK and USA where it is currently sitting at around 26%?”

                        Once again you compare apples with oranges to make your point.

                        Firstly- “The’ industry at large’ states that wireless ONLY residences will remain static in Australia at around 12% (which is a very conservative Telstra only figure)”…..and yet Telstra are our LARGEST telco and our most SUCCESSFUL mobile telco….and yet they’re STILL wrong????

                        Secondly, up until the last 6 months, ALL US carriers offered “unlimited” quota on mobile services. This has now changed and the “wireless only” premises will reflect this over the coming years. The UK, is similar. Also, more that 40% of Americans are BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, compared to less than 15% of Australians…..perhaps this explains why they can only afford one or the other….? Again, the UK is similar.

                        I find it incredible you want to blindly follow these “bigger and better thinking countries” when they’re currently both economic basket cases, thanks to spending and in the case of the UK, unions (and yet people STILL think Work Choices is evil incarnate….). And the US’s wireless industry is a joke. Please, show me more than half the country you can use the same carrier, let alone the same PHONE! And the UK isn’t even rolling out 4G until late NEXT year.

                        The industries in the 3 countries are POLAR OPPOSITES, and yet you’re happy to compare them to suit your argument….

                      • Alex
                        Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:02 pm | Permalink |

                        No alain, I’m not having a punt at all, I just posted a URL telling you want Ericsson (who I believe own 40% of the worlds mobile networks) and who I’m sure know better than you or I, are saying…

                        So as Hubert would say, stop your whining ;-)

                      • Hubert Cumberdale
                        Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:10 pm | Permalink |

                        “So as Hubert would say, stop your whining ;-)”

                        Well actually Alex in this instance I would have said something like this:

                        “I also predict while we are on the subject that wireless only residences will eat massively into NBN Co revenue streams and they will get nowhere near their 70% uptake predicted in the Business Plan.”

                        Thank for that. For a moment there I thought I was going to be forced to use NBN fibre.

                        btw you also predict that the coalition will win the election in 2013 and stop the NBN rollout so either way you cant possibly be proved right on this.

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 10:54 am | Permalink |

                        @seven_tech

                        ‘The industries in the 3 countries are POLAR OPPOSITES, and yet you’re happy to compare them to suit your argument….’

                        But you don’t have a problem with Verizon FiOS 300Mbps in the USA or British Telecom extending fibre from the node to premises in very selected areas of both countries to support the NBN FTTH cause in Australia?

                    • Alex
                      Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:06 pm | Permalink |

                      12% – 26% wireless only.

                      Leaving the overwhelming majority of 74% – 88% fixed.

                      Problem being?

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:41 am | Permalink |

                        Problem being the NBN Co predicts in its Business Plan approved by Parliament that wireless only residences will only rise to 16.3% by 2025.

                        I am confident that the current 12% figure is understating reality because it is only a Telstra figure, that is they know from Telstra Wholesale how many residences have disconnected their landline or HFC completely and how many of those residences have then either stayed on or taken up a Telstra wireless plan.

                        They would not have counted residences that disconnected their Telstra Wholesale landline or HFC but are on competitor carrier wireless plans, the tacit assumption is that what has happened but a matchup needs to occur, preferably independently by someone like the ACCC, ACMA or ABS who get statistical feeds from all carriers for their published surveys.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink |

                        Your “newly quoted” figure, still leaves 83.7% on fixed, in a dozen years time, alain.

                        Problem being?

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink |

                        Did you blink on the first sentence?

                      • Alex
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:43 am | Permalink |

                        You mentioned the problem being that the number will be 16.3% wireless only by 2025. Which didn’t answer anything…

                        So again I ask, if as you claim 16.3% will be wireless only by 2025, what is the problem with the other side of the equation, Australia having 83.7% fixed patronage by 2025?

                        Isn’t 83.7% enough?

                        On that note. Let me repeat I’m not going to be again drawn into your world of political trolling, resulting in my sin binning for a week and your total banning (huh) … again :/

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 12:47 pm | Permalink |

                        ‘So again I ask, if as you claim 16.3% will be wireless only by 2025′

                        You need to start again, that is NOT my claim.

                      • Dean
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:05 pm | Permalink |

                        Who cares who’s claim it is? You’re just dodging the question.

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:21 pm | Permalink |

                        The question contains a blatant error but ignore that and answer it anyway – yeah ok,

                      • Dean
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:25 pm | Permalink |

                        So correct the “error” and answer the question anyway. You’re still dodging.

                      • Dean
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:37 pm | Permalink |

                        Wait, do I understand correctly that you actually think wireless-only residences will be higher than 16% in 2022? And you actually think the current 12% figure is understating current reality? Even though we’ve gone through this a hundred before and you still don’t understand that the figure is actually overstating reality?

                        OK, now I know why I gave up replying to you last time before you were banned.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink |

                        Indeed Dean..

                        It’s an interesting approach and without sounding like a broken record this goes way beyond conventional FUD *golfclap*, our friend is treading over new territory. That being…

                        Post figures to supposedly back one’s claims, discuss those figures, even argue over the validity of the figures but when a question is asked of the poster about the figures, say I dunno they aren’t my figures.

                        So whyTF were they posted, if they had no relevance?

                        *sigh*

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 3:20 pm | Permalink |

                        @dean

                        ‘Wait, do I understand correctly that you actually think wireless-only residences will be higher than 16% in 2022? ‘

                        It’s by 2025 actually, and yes to your question, it was 4% in 2002-2003 so even if we extrapolate it conservatively and say it is running at about 10% every 10 years it gives us around 22% in 2023.

                        The reason I say conservatively is that the ’10% every ten years’ will be higher from now because of the growth of smartphones and tablets and faster wireless speeds which will accelerate that decline in fixed connections, I estimate it will be around that projected 2025 figure of 16% by 2015 easily.

                        ‘And you actually think the current 12% figure is understating current reality?’

                        Yes, I have already explained the reasons why.

                        ‘Even though we’ve gone through this a hundred before and you still don’t understand that the figure is actually overstating reality?’

                        Whoa! where was this done?, where have you disproved that the Telstra wireless only residences figure wrong?

                      • Alex
                        Posted 01/07/2012 at 1:46 pm | Permalink |

                        So now that the FUD circle has been completed…back ti the start.

                        It’s now 22% in 2023 and this is YOUR number, alain.

                        Which leaves the overwhelming majority of 78% on fixed in 10 years, according to you.

                        Thank you for estimating that fixed will still be the overwhelming choice.

                      • alain
                        Posted 02/07/2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink |

                        @Alex

                        That’s the conservative estimate based on the past trend, I already explained why I thought that that will accelerate, I also explained why I thought the current 12% figure was too low, but you ignored all of that.

                        BTW It’s not just me that thinks that figure is too low, or that the wireless only residences percentage will accelerate.

                        ‘The NBN estimates that while 13% of households are wireless only now, that will jump to 16.3% in 14 years. But that comes alongside comments Telstra chief executive David Thodey made yesterday that state the company now has 12% wireless-only households and that could reach 24% “fairly quickly”.

                        Coughlan believes the 13% figure may be “understated”.’

                        http://www.smartcompany.com.au/internet/20110215-government-report-finds-wireless-networks-will-threaten-nbn-but-experts-say-fixed-connections-still-crucial.html

                        I’ll repeat it again for you in case you blinked, that way you will have to blink twice.

                        ‘Telstra chief executive David Thodey made yesterday that state the company now has 12% wireless-only households and that could reach 24% “fairly quickly”.’

                      • Posted 02/07/2012 at 5:03 pm | Permalink |

                        @alin

                        I’m only going to be brief on this, because this is really fighting a point that can’t be made by either side.

                        “‘The NBN estimates that while 13% of households are wireless only now, that will jump to 16.3% in 14 years. But that comes alongside comments Telstra chief executive David Thodey made yesterday that state the company now has 12% wireless-only households and that could reach 24% “fairly quickly”.”

                        This figure from David Thodey is from Telstra. Telstra are the dominant Telco. But they are NOT the only Telco. Hence, an increase from 12-24% (if that is what happens at Telstra) does NOT:

                        1- Indicate it will increase across ALL Telco’s, ESPECIALLY as Telstra have the much better wireless network
                        2- Mean that 24% of ALL Australians will therefore be wireless only. It means 24% of Telstra Australians may be wireless only. Meaning a jump from, say 13% to (45% Telstra market share of 12-24% increase is doubling so it would be going from 12% of 45% to 25% of 45%, or from 5% (total) to 10% (total)) to about 18%. Not 24%….oddly enough close to the figure NBNCo. is predicting….

                        Secondly, Telstra have a VESTED INTEREST in these people moving to wireless only:

                        1- Wireless is the biggest money spinner
                        2- They have the best wireless network and can market it as such, hence moving people to it more easily
                        3- If the NBN DOESN’T proceed, they will get MORE wireless business as we AGAIN have to wait to upgrade our fixed line, while wireless keeps going up slowly in performance.

                        So yes, Thodey may be saying 24% of TELSTRA may be wireless (but he may also be exaggerating, seeing as they have no naked DSL at the moment, but that may change and their figure may or may not include naked DSL (as NBNCo.’s does now)) but that DOESN’T mean ALL of Australia will be like that, that that in fact WILL be true OR even correct. Telstra are a private company, they WANT more money from wireless- it’s more profitable.

                        Move the argument on. I can’t say, as NBNCo. can’t, that they are CERTAIN only 17% of Australians will be wireless only. Nether can Telstra say 24% will be for CERTAIN. We’re working on predictions. Get used to it or stop whinging.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 03/07/2012 at 11:42 am | Permalink |

                        No I heard it all alain, I just find it odd that you can somehow try to justify 22% wireless overriding the other 78% fixed.

                        I guess that why so many posters here are involved in so many meaningless arguments with you :/

                  • GongGav
                    Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:20 pm | Permalink |

                    alain, what carries the data once it leaves the wireless tower? Even if the wireless is faster than fibre (which is also providing breakthroughs on a weekly basis – Alan Jones laser method is fibre and gives 26 Tb/s speeds), its still only going to be able to transmit at fibre speeds once it leaves the wireless tower.

                    Direct limitation even if everything you say is true. The maximum speed available for wireless is the same as fibre.

                    • alain
                      Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:22 am | Permalink |

                      My point about wireless only residences has nothing whatever to do with speed comparisons of fibre vs wireless, in the same way it has nothing to do with speed comparisons of ADSL2+ and HFC vs wireless.

                      • PeterA
                        Posted 01/07/2012 at 8:55 pm | Permalink |

                        Sorry gav, let me answer on Alains behalf (because he seems to have this problem of actually answering questions).

                        Robot unicorns. There is a robot unicorn stationed at the bottom of every wireless tower, when it receives a packet for the internet, it will fly to the destination server using rainbow power, it will deliver the message and return back to the wireless tower awaiting any subsequent messages.

                        The return path is the real magic though; you see the Unicorns have a problem with return bandwidth (they need too much room to turn around, so we don’t bother using them for the return message -you cant reach their saddle packs silly!), anyway back to reality. We use DIDO and terrahertz super radio that lets us get a terrabit per second per 8.4 meters! So, for each wireless tower we have our unicorn station for upload (slow) and our terrabit per second radio network with a tower every 8.4 meters. We have no issue with the movement of the receivers since this is a fixed wireless network.

                      • alain
                        Posted 02/07/2012 at 11:54 am | Permalink |

                        ‘Sorry gav, let me answer on Alains behalf (because he seems to have this problem of actually answering questions’

                        I do answer the questions, you just don’t like the answers, which is not the same thing as not answering, so you rather than answering them in factual manner decide the best tact is to go off into Fantasy Land and answer for me with nonsensical rubbish.

            • Alex
              Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:13 pm | Permalink |

              Good points Avid Gamer.

              Funny how some on a mission will dismiss current figures as “early adopters” and NBN projections as “assumptions” and then hypocritically have the gall to mention 6G…

              ROFL

          • NPSF3000
            Posted 01/07/2012 at 12:01 pm | Permalink |

            “What some respondents say in a survey way ahead of some future connection of the NBN to their residence ticking the ‘hamburger with the lot’ option and what they actually do when the are studying ISP’s dynamically changing retail NBN price lists between now and 2023 are two different things.”

            Err… Why you trying to complicate things?

            The data is really simple – 85% of people want 50Mbps or faster.

            You seem to be over-complicating things.

            • alain
              Posted 02/07/2012 at 4:18 pm | Permalink |

              What I stated is quite simple and un-complicated, what bit don’t you understand?

    23. Simon
      Posted 29/06/2012 at 8:22 am | Permalink |

      No no no no no. This is all wrong. Turnbull said this wouldn’t happen so it’s wrong

    24. Catfish
      Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:44 am | Permalink |

      50Mbps? 50MBPS?!! FIFTY MBPS?!!?!!

      I wish I could connect at ONE MBPS.

      I pay for ADSL2 and download no faster than 600kbps. Recently its been a steady 100kbps. Slower than ADSL1 used to go!

      I called Telstra 20 minutes ago to enquire about getting cable connected. I have Foxtel cable already in this place, but Telstra says I can’t get cable internet here. They can’t tell me why – just that I can’t. All they can offer me is ADSL2 – what I already have, on their lines, their exchange, with pathetic performance.

      • djos
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 10:50 am | Permalink |

        @catfish Change your modem profile to ADSL1 and you’ll likely get better performance (counter intuitive but true, ADSL1 works better on long and poor quality lines).

        ” They can’t tell me why – just that I can’t. All they can offer me is ADSL2 – what I already have, on their lines, their exchange, with pathetic performance.”

        I can tell you why this is, Telstra and Optus designed HFC for a maximum of 50% connection to properties passed.

        • Catfish
          Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:46 pm | Permalink |

          @djos “Change your modem profile to ADSL1 and you’ll likely get better performance (counter intuitive but true, ADSL1 works better on long and poor quality lines).”

          I did this and it has jumped back up to 450kbps download. thanks for the tip. Of course, I have had better speeds at this location, and this has happened before. Suddenly its like my line is throttled and I have to muck about with settings to get some speed back.

          “I can tell you why this is, Telstra and Optus designed HFC for a maximum of 50% connection to properties passed.”

          So does this mean I cant get cable until another customer disconnects in the area? Why don’t Telstra just tell me this instead of providing no answer and offering me something I already have and am not satisfied with.

          • Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:54 pm | Permalink |

            “So does this mean I cant get cable until another customer disconnects in the area? Why don’t Telstra just tell me this instead of providing no answer and offering me something I already have and am not satisfied with.”

            Quite possibly Catfish. They don’t tell people, because they like to think they’ve kept a secret the fact that they’ve really only rolled out the HFC for profit NOT for improved services. If they told people that their wizbang HFC network can ONLY take maximum 50% contention at any one area, they would essentially be admitting it is a waste of time for most people to apply and thereby lowering sales of “alternatives” when people ring up about cable.

            And people REALLY think Telstra should be allowed to continue this under the Coalition broadband policy…..

          • djos
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:08 pm | Permalink |

            ST said it all. :-)

        • alain
          Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:19 am | Permalink |

          @djos

          ‘I can tell you why this is, Telstra and Optus designed HFC for a maximum of 50% connection to properties passed.’

          What internal technical information from Telstra and Optus did you get that from?

          • djos
            Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:30 am | Permalink |

            @alain you are forgetting I worked in the ISP sector as a CDM, this is common knowledge and if you apply some business logic to it makes perfect sense – why over-engineer a network to handle 100% of premises passed when OS experience shows 30% take up is a great number?

            • alain
              Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:45 am | Permalink |

              So it’s an assumption then not based on anything factual from Optus and Telstra which would be commercial-in-confidence anyway?

              • alain
                Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:49 am | Permalink |

                BTW does the same principle apply to the NBN?

              • djos
                Posted 30/06/2012 at 9:53 am | Permalink |

                @alain god you’re an ignorant PITA!!!

                FFS, I know folk who have worked as network engineers for Optus who have confirmed this!!!

                And no it doesnt apply to the NBN, the NBN has been designed for 2 fibre tails per BLOCK (only 1 installed per house) to allow for future subdivision!! Also, GPON is a 100% coverage design as it’s meant to replace legacy copper PSTN networks!

                • alain
                  Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink |

                  Great, I’m ‘ignorant’ simply because I asked you what the source was that we could all read about, my point remains.

                  • djos
                    Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:19 am | Permalink |

                    @alain you’re ignorant because all you do is spout liberal party FUD and you are incapable of doing your own research!!!

                    And before you accuse me of being biased towards the Labour party consider this, in the last 12 federal & state elections I’ve voted for the Liberal Party 10 times and Labour twice (both Federal elections)!

                    • alain
                      Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:56 am | Permalink |

                      Well consider this I have never voted for the Coalition in any election ever, which is going against the tide because I am in a blue ribbon Liberal seat anyway.

                      • djos
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 12:24 pm | Permalink |

                        @alain if it’s obvious to me a previous hardcore liberal supporter that the current gov is being setup by the right wing controlled print media then perhaps you should do some digging yourself and find out what is really going on?

                        Im not saying everything JG has done has been great, infact im pi$$ed off about how the imagration & pokies issues have been handled but the Carbon Tax, MRRT and NBN are all worthwhile and yet Labor is getting smashed by FUD reporting on all 3 issues!

                      • Noddy
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:38 pm | Permalink |

                        Tricky with the words there alain? Coalition. Did you vote Liberal?

                      • alain
                        Posted 30/06/2012 at 2:51 pm | Permalink |

                        huh no tricks M8 – I said I was in a blue ribbon Liberal seat there is no National Party here, in fact I don’t know why they have a Labor candidate they get rolled well and truly every time, the Coalition Party is the name is it known by made up of Liberal and National Party members, they love each other (well most of the time). :)

                      • Alex
                        Posted 01/07/2012 at 1:50 pm | Permalink |

                        With enemies such as you, the Coalition don’t need friends then ;-)

                • Alex
                  Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:15 am | Permalink |

                  Before you are accused of personal attack djos, may I cut in and just suggest that there are a number of posters here (all playing the same doom and gloom anti-NBN card – so perhaps they are but one or two in total, masquerading) who have clearly now proven that, fear, uncertainty, doubt != fact, common sense :)

                  • Alex
                    Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:32 am | Permalink |

                    Sorry djos, I was late by a few minutes :-(

                    • djos
                      Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink |

                      no dramas Alex :-)

      • Jakula
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 1:01 pm | Permalink |

        @catfish

        I have ADSL 1 (8mb) and my average download is 800-900kbps (over Steam) make me wonder how far from your exchange you are.

        • Catfish
          Posted 29/06/2012 at 2:16 pm | Permalink |

          About 3.4km by road.

    25. My 2c
      Posted 29/06/2012 at 11:58 am | Permalink |

      Everytime I see the NBN debate I think of the Southern Expressway (Adelaides joke that is a one way expressway that shuts down twice a day to turn it around). They are now duplicating it.

      Would have saved a huge amount of money if they just done it right the first time. Liberals, they never learn.

      • djos
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 12:20 pm | Permalink |

        Yeah Conservatives (liberal’s) and Infrastructure is such a poor mix, they just don’t seem to understand the concept of “do it once, do it right”!

        That stupid southern freeway is a royal PITA, it’s never going in the right direction when I want to use it!

        • alain
          Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:32 am | Permalink |

          So you want it upgraded to Full Duplex.

          :)

          • djos
            Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:34 am | Permalink |

            Correct :-)

            • alain
              Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:51 am | Permalink |

              Rename it to the 5G Freeway perhaps?

              :)

              • My 2c
                Posted 30/06/2012 at 4:05 pm | Permalink |

                It’s just a 2 lane road, and goes all the way up to 3 lanes for about half. It’s amazing what they can do these days. Just amazing.

                Couldn’t imagine a road that goes both ways. Crazy days.

                The “Telstra 5G expressway”? Should cover some of the costs. Surely just a matter of time before this thing happens on public roads.

                Anyway, yay for Libs saying they will build the NBN even if they win. May have won a vote with that.

                • Posted 30/06/2012 at 5:13 pm | Permalink |

                  “Anyway, yay for Libs saying they will build the NBN even if they win. May have won a vote with that.”

                  Careful My 2c. They haven’t ACTUALLY said they’ll build the NBN. They’ve said they’ll “renegotiate contracts to ensure a more timely and cost effective rollout.” I don’t know about you, but when people say “I can do that job cheaper and faster” it normally ends up a dogs breakfast.

                  Is it possible they could do it? Maybe, I don’t see how, but then again, I’m not an industry expert. But I, personally need ALOT more detail than “we’re gonna build it faster and better” to change my vote. I would encourage you to be sceptical, but not at the expense of never believing anything anyone says….which is what it ends up being sometimes….

                  • Alex
                    Posted 01/07/2012 at 5:46 pm | Permalink |

                    Indeed 7T. The only thing that has changed imo, are the words.

                    Before they were using the typical tough guy words they thought would work, “we will stop the wasteful white elephant NBN… and build FttN.”

                    Now that they realise most Aussies want the NBN they have simply changed the words to “we will continue the NBN… but with FttN.”

                    • Noddy
                      Posted 01/07/2012 at 6:45 pm | Permalink |

                      They may even be able to do it really cheap (baring Telstra tax). Malcolm has been talking to the right people. He could pick up all the FTTN equipment that he is using as examples of FTTN as it’s being replaced with FTTH ;)

                      • My 2c
                        Posted 01/07/2012 at 8:40 pm | Permalink |

                        Careful I shall be seven tech.

                        The devil is always in the detail. I’d imagine they (Libs) would be thinking if they stuff this thing up, it will be remembered for decades.

                        It’s a given that FTTP will happen eventually (plenty of evidence for this) and the last thing they want to admit is that Labor had it right years down the track.

                        Political suicide?

                    • alain
                      Posted 02/07/2012 at 11:47 am | Permalink |

                      ‘Now that they realise most Aussies want the NBN they have simply changed the words to “we will continue the NBN… but with FttN.”’

                      No they realise that cancelling existing Labor NBN FTTH contracts with suppliers would not be cost effective with regard to penalty clauses if you going in on a election platform of we can do it all in a more cost effective manner.

                      • Alex
                        Posted 03/07/2012 at 11:57 am | Permalink |

                        If as you claim, the self proclaimed “fiscally superior managers of the economy” have only just realised this, well they aren’t too smart, let alone fiscally superior.

                        I reiterate they now see the NBN as becoming more popular and to add to that Peter Reith’s post-mortem of the last election where he admitted the NBN cost the Coalition seat(s) in Tasmainia (where they had the biggest swing against them in 40 years, iirc) and therefore government (do the sums), when the rest of the nation swung to them…

                        But what would Peter Reith former Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party know?

    26. Gordon Drennan
      Posted 29/06/2012 at 1:41 pm | Permalink |

      This is a lesson in how to lie with statistics. The other, and more valid, interpretation of the statistic that a higher percentage of customers than expected are signing up to the highest speed is that the NBN is getting the people who can’t get the speed they want from ADSL, and the people who can aren’t switching. That it, the PERCENTAGE of customers who want high speed is higher than expected not because the NUMBER who want high speed is higher than expected, but because the NUMBER who don’t is lower than expected.

    27. Posted 29/06/2012 at 3:38 pm | Permalink |

      What I find ABSOLUTELY incredible in all of this is the one thing that ACTUALLY breaks, nay, demolishes the entire argument of wireless: data carrying ability.

      In 2000, the average downloads were less than 250mb (ABS show in 2002 they were around 280Mb), now, in 2012, the average downloads are closer to 20Gb. That is close to a 100 fold increase.

      In 2000, the average speed, was, by and large 56.6Kbps (that’s the TOP speed of dial up). While some had ISDN (128Kb, or 256Kb) and some had dedicated T1 style lines, the population at large, was mainly confined to dial-up. Now, the average speed is 5Mbps. That is, again, close to a 100 fold increase.

      By and large, there was little speed available in the mobile arena until the introduction of 3G. EDGE allowed up to 600Kb/s, but there were few, if any, data packages available and most people were charged by the Mb. There is little data available about average downloads in the early EDGE days, but I DON’T think it would be a stretch to assume, that at $1.50/Mb, it would not have been high….3G introduced speeds of 1.5Mbps, around about the time fixed lines were introducing 512Kb broadband, with up to 1.5Mbps available. The difference being, 3G STILL worked on $/Mb, while fixed lines were bringing in quotas of 500Mb or 1Gb.

      Over the 10 years since 3G began in Australia, we’ve seen download usage on mobiles grow from a couple of Mbs per month, to 5000Tb/month for 8.8 Million Mobile subscribers (ABS) (meaning an average usage of 568Mb) and 23 000TB/month for total wireless subscribers of 11 Million. So, even if we take wireless subscribers in total, we have 23000Tb/11 Million subscribers, or just over 2Gb/user. This is a similar GROWTH to fixed line, but 10x LESS in relative size. Even if this were to CONTINUE to grow at the same rate (which is HIGHLY unlikely due to wireless network constraints) it would STILL be 10x less than fixed line usage growth, which saw use use 322 000Tb of data on fixed line…..more than 10x more. And it’s STILL growing, faster than wireless.

      The final problem in this puzzle, is the fact that we’re seeing wireless SPEEDS overtake fixed line, but NOT their ability to transfer DATA. This isn’t hard to understand- wireless hardware covers VAST areas from a single location. You swap out a transceiver and a switch and BINGO 4G for ANY compatible handset. Fixed Line requires not only the exchange to the changed, but the customers hardware AND, if we go beyond copper, the entire LINE has to be pulled out so a SINGLE house can get much better speeds. Hence why changing fixed line infrastructure is so expensive. BUT, the increase in speeds over fixed line results in much MUCH larger actual data throughput being available. That means, we can have 100Mbps AND a quota of 1Tb. While on wireless, we can have 100Mbps (theoretically) but a quota of 2Gb….and these quotas have NOT changed significantly for the last 3-4 years, while fixed lines have increased by 2x. Why? Because of SPECTRUM. You can transfer stuff VERY fast, but that is a single connection. MORE connections results in MORE time/frequency splitting to allow simultaneous data transfers, decreasing speed overall. This means, unless mobile companies FORCE people not to download, cell contention will get so high, speeds drop to almost useless (see Vodafail) HENCE, why mobile quotas are so low.

      And THIS is the final checkmate- data quotas aren’t low because wireless is expensive- it’s not, in fact , it’s a HUGE money spinner for the big 3. Data quotas are low ARTIFICIALLY because the big 3 KNOW that too many downloads brings the system to its’ knees, both in terms of speed AND available data. Fixed line does not have this problem.

      TL;DR Wireless will NEVER EVER overtake fixed line for use of internet by volume because contention will FORCE mobile companies to artificially cap data limits. It is not a matter of research or new breakthroughs, PHYSICS stops HUGE data through shared cell wireless- ie mobile wireless.

      • Soth
        Posted 29/06/2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink |

        See this is why we need that show back on… BEYOND TOMORROW! :)
        But no seriously, thanks seven for the information about wireless tech, it helps people like me who aren’t tech hea.. Oh I can’t say that word!

        • Posted 29/06/2012 at 4:29 pm | Permalink |

          No probs soth :)

          I’ve got more on my blog http://nbninfo.blogspot.com.au if you’re interested.

          It’s a bit more technical than I’d like. I’m planning on doing a simplified version. But that’s the problem with this debate- the surface numbers CLEARLY show FTTN or wireless as better…..but the complexities mean FTTH wins out every time :)

          • Soth
            Posted 29/06/2012 at 5:00 pm | Permalink |

            Thank you good sir, will bookmark that right away.

      • alain
        Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:30 am | Permalink |

        ‘What I find ABSOLUTELY incredible in all of this is the one thing that ACTUALLY breaks, nay, demolishes the entire argument of wireless: data carrying ability.’

        I read your enlightening discourse that followed that statement, can I ask you one thing, who are you arguing with about ‘wireless data carrying ability’ and it’s relationship to the NBN because I for one have never said wireless can replace the NBN FTTH and neither has it ever been Coalition policy.

    28. alain
      Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink |

      This is a interesting survey in the UK which by coincidence matches the 85% figure used in the headline in this discussion piece.

      ’85 per cent of consumers could save on broadband bills

      Most broadband users paying too much for speed they don’t need’

      http://www.computeractive.co.uk/ca/news/2121399/survey-people-save-gbp6-broadband-costs

      • Alex
        Posted 30/06/2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink |

        From yesterday…

        http://delimiter.com.au/2012/06/28/nbn-85-of-australians-want-50mbps-or-higher/#comment-476764

        • alain
          Posted 30/06/2012 at 12:06 pm | Permalink |

          I made no comment about the UK survey, I just put it out there as being of interest because the 85% figure caught my eye, if you don’t find it a ‘interesting’ survey and read it objectively – fair enough.

          • Dean
            Posted 30/06/2012 at 1:07 pm | Permalink |

            It’s interesting that people are willing to pay for higher speeds and higher quotas than they really “need”. Tell us again how everybody is going to choose the lowest tier plans and NBNCo will go out of business.

            • alain
              Posted 30/06/2012 at 2:59 pm | Permalink |

              Are you drawing a conclusion on my behalf from that UK survey, ask me a question on a assertion I never made in the first place then when I don’t answer say you ‘never answer any questions’.

              Nice.

              • PeterA
                Posted 01/07/2012 at 9:10 pm | Permalink |

                Yes, he drew a conclusion.

                Funny how when you provide some evidence that appears to support a fact (people could pay less for broadband) that someone would infer that you agree with it.

                Just like if I were to post a link to a study reporting that women are smarter than men, you would (correctly) infer that after I had read this article the points raised were compelling enough to sway my opinion on the matter.

                Why would I post the article [without comment] if I thought it was wrong? Why would I post the article without statement if I disagreed with it? Or if I thought its methodology was flawed? If the answer is anything other than “Because I am an internet troll” I would love to hear it.

                I suspect I won’t be getting an answer out of you.

                • Alex
                  Posted 01/07/2012 at 10:11 pm | Permalink |

                  +1

                • alain
                  Posted 02/07/2012 at 11:39 am | Permalink |

                  @PeterA

                  ‘Funny how when you provide some evidence that appears to support a fact (people could pay less for broadband) that someone would infer that you agree with it’

                  Does it really matter if I agree with it or not? – it seems quite straightforward in its result conclusion.

                  ‘ If the answer is anything other than “Because I am an internet troll” I would love to hear it’

                  The old troll line is trotted out for a airing again I see, of course the double standards abound on that one as only anti-NBN comment is categorised as ‘trolling’ there is no such thing as pro-NBN trolling even off topic comment in this discussion supposedly about the Telsyte poll – ‘Time to laugh at Opennetworks’ and off they went, but that’s ok because it is pro-NBN.

                  ‘I suspect I won’t be getting an answer out of you.’

                  You just did.

          • Alex
            Posted 01/07/2012 at 2:05 pm | Permalink |

            I did actually find it interesting, because unlike some on the anti-NBN circus who have unmovable views and will even try to distort all information, I am willing to listen and learn.

            In fact I am in a vaguely similar situation myself…

            I currently have a 100G download per month but never use it. I could downgrade but then risk perhaps going over the quota limit and being slowed. So I stay put. Why these people stay rather than reducing their plans is anyone’s guess.

            And you will notice that no one on went on a a defensively wild goose chase, by trying to illogically and irrationally deride the survey by mentioning the small numbers surveyed… 2000 out of a population of 62 000 000 ;-)

            Because that’s what surveys do…!

            • alain
              Posted 02/07/2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink |

              Of course you overlook that my comments about the Telsyte poll were not JUST about small numbers to the exclusivity of any other comments, but you know that.

              • Alex
                Posted 02/07/2012 at 1:35 pm | Permalink |

                I didn’t mention you, I just mentioned the anti-NBN circus :/

    29. Abel Adamski
      Posted 01/07/2012 at 1:52 am | Permalink |

      Poll: Do you want the NBN?

      Yes, just get on with it. 80%
      Yes, but in a different form/funding model/technology 12%
      No, we don’t need it. 8%

      Total votes: 6501.

      http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/we-will-not-cancel-the-nbn-turnbull-20120629-217f3.html

      And 85% want over 25Mbit ?

      • alain
        Posted 02/07/2012 at 12:02 pm | Permalink |

        Disclaimer:

        These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participate.

        • djos
          Posted 02/07/2012 at 12:08 pm | Permalink |

          the fact remains Alain that out of more than 6,500 ppl who read the story and bothered to vote, more than 5,000 or 80% of those ppl want the NBN to continue as is!!! pretty damning stuf imo!

        • djos
          Posted 02/07/2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink |

          correction, more than 8,000 ppl have voted now and it’s still 80% in favour of the current NBN!

          • alain
            Posted 02/07/2012 at 12:56 pm | Permalink |

            So your comments override the disclaimer because?

            • djos
              Posted 02/07/2012 at 1:01 pm | Permalink |

              since when did I dispute your disclaimer, I just pointed out that the vast majority of readers want the NBN as is and no matter what you say, you cant invalidate the view of that many readers!

              • alain
                Posted 02/07/2012 at 1:11 pm | Permalink |

                It’s not my disclaimer, so you think punters who voluntarily answered that question and they were not randomly selected from across Australia are a fair and accurate representation of NBN opinion including those that don’t give a stuff about the NBN?

              • alain
                Posted 02/07/2012 at 4:27 pm | Permalink |

                Also it’s just an amazing coincidence I take it that the poll figure count accelerated rapidly once the poll was mentioned complete with links in the Whirlpool NBN forum thread headed – ‘Fighting the NBN FUD’?




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