NBN helped Coalition lose 2010 election

146

A landmark report handed down yesterday into the Coalition’s loss in the 2010 Federal Election has highlighted a failure to adequately respond to Labor’s flagship National Broadband Network plan as a key reason for losing valuable votes, especially in the sensitive Tasmanian electorate, which is receiving the network before the rest of the nation.

Yesterday, the Federal Executive of the Liberal Party held a full day meeting in Sydney to receive a formal presentation from former Howard minister Peter Reith (PDF), who the party had asked to produce a report on last year’s election loss, which resulted in a hung parliament and Labor being forced to partner with the Greens and independents to form government.

The majority of the report does not mention the NBN, but one section quotes extensively from a similar report produced last year by Sydney academic Julian Leeser into the Tasmanian leg of the election, which has been reported in brief.

“The failure to properly explain the Liberal Party’s broadband policy and the Labor Party’s effective scare campaign was a major cause of the party’s failure to win seats in Tasmania,” the report states. “This was the nearly universal review of people making submissions to the review and is borne out by research undertaken by the Liberal Party.”

“In the view of many, the party’s policy amounted to a threat to come into people’s homes and rip the Internet out of the wall.”

The report added that the NBN policy had a particularly strong effect on Tasmania for a number of reasons. For starters, the fibre network was already being rolled out in some towns, and Tasmania is also often behind the mainland in receiving new technology — so the early stage NBN rollout was seen as a boost to the state, as well as having flow-on effects in terms of jobs, for example.
In comparison, the Liberals’ policy was not as clear-cut as Labor’s.

“One of the problems of the broadband policy was that nowhere in the policy document was there any carve-out for Tasmania or any explanation of what the Liberal Party would do with existing infrastructure,” wrote Leeser in the report. “Numerous senior Liberals in Tasmania had raised the issue of broadband in Tasmania with senior Federal Liberals in Canberra, but a carve-out for Tasmania was forgotten.”

“The broadband policy was written at the last minute without a set of Tasmanian eyes cast over it. The party needs to make a clear and unambiguous statement about its intentions on broadband infrastructure in Tasmania in the future.”

Led by Communications Minister Stephen Conroy and Prime Minister Julia Gillard on the issue, Labor campaigned very hard on the NBN issue during the campaign, linking it to outcomes in health and education as well as fundamental economic reform in the telecommunications sector. Gillard in particular regularly mentioned the NBN policy in general speeches during the campaign.

In comparison, the Coalition suffered a number of missteps during the campaign.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott did not mention his party’s broadband policy or Australia’s technology sector in general during the Coalition’s wide-ranging election campaign launch on Sunday, and the launch of the Coalition broadband policy was conducted by Shadow Communications Minister Tony Smith and Finance Spokesperson Andrew Robb, with Abbott at an unrelated event that morning.

Abbott also appeared in a lengthy interview on the ABC’s 7:30 Report in which he appeared to display a lack of understanding of the Coalition’s broadband policy and repeatedly explained he was “no tech-head” and “no Bill Gates”. The policy in general was poorly received by the telecommunications industry, and Conroy labelled Abbott a “luddite” during the campaign.

Following the election loss, Smith himself — who had seldom publicly commented in the role — was quickly replaced as Shadow Communications Minister by high-profile former Liberal leader Malcolm Turnbull, who has been extremely active in the portfolio over the past year.

Reith’s report stated that had the Coalition performed better on the broadband issue, it might have won the seat of Bass in Tasmania. “The post-election polling confirmed that the NBN was a major reinforcement for people to vote Labor in Bass. If we had negated NBN and offered, in a timely way, a decent Tasmanian package, Bass might have been a win instead of a loss,” the report states.

“Certainly, Bass and Braddon are seats we must target for the next election.”

Despite ongoing questions on the issue, the Coalition has not yet announced the formal broadband policy it will take to the next election, expected to be held in several years’ time. However, Turnbull has consistently stated a Coalition Government would immediately halt the NBN project while a cost-benefit analysis was conducted into its future by an organisation like the Productivity Commission. As with Labor’s policy, a Coalition broadband policy would include elements of fixed and wireless infrastructure to deliver services — but likely at a smaller overall cost than the NBN.

Image credit: Delimiter

146 COMMENTS

  1. The coalition has made it quite clear they are concentrating on the short-term, much to the frustration of conservatives who aren’t bogans.

  2. This quote is priceless seeing the daily anti-NBN FUD and Quigley witch-hunt, from the opposition…

    “The failure to properly explain the Liberal Party’s broadband policy and the Labor Party’s effective scare campaign was a major cause of the party’s failure to win seats in Tasmania,” the report states.

    LOL…!

  3. The problem with the coalition clowns is they thought they could fool everyone with their patchwork plan, just think if it wasn’t for other factors they could be in power right now STILL without any clear plan for the future and no doubt leaving it all up to the private sector because according to them 1mbps upload is all anyone ever needs.

    I’m curious to know (I’m not really) what the anti-NBN crusaders think of all this because according to them the substandard patchwork plan was perfectly acceptable, but come 2013 Tony Rabbitt and his zoo crew chums will be presenting something completely different proving that what they put forward in 2010 was just as pathetic as we said it was.

    Now assuming the Labor party win the next election in 2013 the coalition clowns will be playing catch-up yet again and hypothetically this could go on for another 10 years until the NBN is complete and they come to the conclusion that FTTH was the right option all along.

    • The problem with the coalition clowns is they thought they could fool everyone with their patchwork plan, just think if it wasn’t for other factors they could be in power right now STILL without any clear plan for the future and no doubt leaving it all up to the private sector because according to them 1mbps upload is all anyone ever needs.
      Every single network topology in the world is a “patchwork”. So I have no idea what you are going on here

      I’m curious to know (I’m not really) what the anti-NBN crusaders think of all this because according to them the substandard patchwork plan was perfectly acceptable, but come 2013 Tony Rabbitt and his zoo crew chums will be presenting something completely different proving that what they put forward in 2010 was just as pathetic as we said it was.

      Well if the entire world is doing this patchwork plan, I think its reasonable (to say the least) that its “acceptable”

      Now assuming the Labor party win the next election in 2013 the coalition clowns will be playing catch-up yet again and hypothetically this could go on for another 10 years until the NBN is complete and they come to the conclusion that FTTH was the right option all along.
      That is a pretty big assumption with a party that how its primary vote now at 27%

      • “So I have no idea what you are going on here”

        Nothing new, you have no idea at all…

        “Well if the entire world is doing this patchwork plan”

        Which one? The 2010 FTTN plan or whatever they come up with next in 2013?

        FTTH is the future, get over it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_premises_by_country, there is no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_node_by_country entry btw

        “I think its reasonable (to say the least) that its “acceptable””

        To who? You? LOL.

        “That is a pretty big assumption with a party that how its primary vote now at 27%”

        The election is in 2013 not today, it can go either way and please learn how to read.

        • Nothing new, you have no idea at all…
          No actually you don’t have any idea at all. You are claiming that patchwork is a bad thing, but as I have empirically stated every single countries network topology is a patchwork

          FTTH is the future, get over it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_premises_by_country, there is no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_node_by_country entry btw

          Thats proving my point, not yours

          Its showing that network topology is a patchwork, and it will remain such a way

          To who? You? LOL.
          To everyone, we are all using patchwork internet topologies. Japan is, South Korea is, and every other non trivial country is

          You are going to have to try a lot harder (as in have some credentials and produce something of substance) to show why having patchwork internet is a bad thing.

          The election is in 2013 not today, it can go either way and please learn how to read.
          People said that when Labor got voted in, their vote has continuously dropping

          • “No actually you don’t have any idea at all.”

            No I was right, you really do have no idea at all. Please come back when you understand the meaning and context of the word patchwork when describing a wholesale broadband network.

            “Thats proving my point, not yours”

            Actually it proved that FTTH is the future which is what I’ve been saying all along.

            “To everyone, we are all using patchwork internet topologies. Japan is, South Korea is”

            See, I was right, you really do have no idea of the meaning of patchwork in this context.

            “and every other non trivial country is”

            Define “non trivial country”

            “You are going to have to try a lot harder”

            I don’t have to try at all….

            “to show why having patchwork internet is a bad thing.”

            Clearly you still don’t understand the meaning of patchwork in this context.

            “People said that when Labor got voted in, their vote has continuously dropping”

            And???

          • No I was right, you really do have no idea at all. Please come back when you understand the meaning and context of the word patchwork when describing a wholesale broadband network.

            No I know perfectly well what your position

            You are arguing out of ignorance, and theoretical purity (we all have to have fiber!!) more then what is happening in reality

            Actually it proved that FTTH is the future which is what I’ve been saying all along.
            No it doesn’t prove anything

            FTTN/HFC upgrades are in multitudes higher in amount then FTTH connections. So using your logic that proves FTTN/HFC is the future

            See, I was right, you really do have no idea of the meaning of patchwork in this context.
            Your meaning of the word patchwork changes whenever it doesn’t suite your argument

            Define “non trivial country”
            Countries like Guan that are just tiny islands

            Clearly you still don’t understand the meaning of patchwork in this context.
            Which is what?

            Please tell me what you mean by patchwork, you are arguing that everyone needs FTTH and that multiple technologies in different areas, FTTN/FTTH/HFC/Wirless etc etc is what a patchwork is.

            If thats what you mean by patchwork, then you argument is completely incorrect. In fact, we are moving away from monopolistic technology. Internet used to only be available on copper or copper type connections, then HFC and fiber, and then wireless came along

            Furthermore wireless is growing at a faster rate then any fixed line connection, and HFC/FTTN updgrades/installations are far surpassing any FTTH deployment on a global or even national scale

            Half of Japan still use ADSL2, and many people choose to use ADSL2.

          • “No I know perfectly well what your position”

            What? Position? Talk some sense please.

            “You are arguing out of ignorance”

            No I’m arguing that you are ignorant, once again come back when you understand the meaning of patchwork in this context.

            “No it doesn’t prove anything”

            Actually it does. FTTH is the future not FTTN as you seem to think.

            “So using your logic that proves FTTN/HFC is the future”

            Nope that isn’t my logic at all. Perhaps you are having trouble comprehending this but FTTH is the future regardless, I was just pointing out the obvious for your benefit and that is FTTN is not the future as the coalition would have you believe.

            “Countries like Guan that are just tiny islands”

            There is no such place. In any case why even make this silly statement.

            “blah blah blah Half of Japan still use ADSL2, and many people choose to use ADSL2.”

            Good for them?

          • What? Position? Talk some sense please.
            I just said what it is, are you blind or just retarded, to quote myself

            Please tell me what you mean by patchwork, you are arguing that everyone needs FTTH and that multiple technologies in different areas, FTTN/FTTH/HFC/Wirless etc etc is what a patchwork is.
            If thats what you mean by patchwork, then you argument is completely incorrect. In fact, we are moving away from monopolistic technology. Internet used to only be available on copper or copper type connections, then HFC and fiber, and then wireless came along

            No I’m arguing that you are ignorant, once again come back when you understand the meaning of patchwork in this context.
            Can you PLEASE explain what you mean by patchwork then. Currently its just a word that you throw around that has no meaning whatsoever

            Actually it does. FTTH is the future not FTTN as you seem to think.
            Empty rhetoric gets us noweher

            The future is wireless, not FTTH or FTTN as you seem to think. Has the same credibility of your statement

            Good for them?
            Not good for your argument. In fact you don’t even have an argument because you still have not explained what you mean by patchwork. This is the 3rd time, I am asking, what your definition of patchwork, in this context is.

            If you don’t answer what you mean by patchwork in the next post, then essentially you have about as much substance in your argument as Bill Gates has in foreign policy

          • “Can you PLEASE explain what you mean by patchwork then.”

            Sure, since you seem to be unable to figure this out for yourself. A patchwork plan is what the coalition tried to fool everyone with at the last election that is a haphazard mix of FTTN, HFC, ADSL2+ wireless and tin cans.

            “Not good for your argument. ”

            How so? You are saying that even though the Japanese have fibre installed they still opt for ADSL2+? OK so can I get fibre installed here so I can have that choice too?

            “This is the 3rd time”

            Not looking good for you it seems, I told you to come back when you figure it out yet I still ended up having to explain it to you.

          • In that case

            1. I never misinterpreted what you mean by patchwork, since I directly stated before what you just said
            2. You are completely incorrect

            Have a nice day, come again

          • “1. I never misinterpreted what you mean by patchwork”‘

            You still have no idea what patchwork means in this context so misinterpret would be an understatement but please keep embarrassing yourself for my amusement…

            “2. You are completely incorrect”

            About the liberal party’s patchwork plan? Nope, I’m not wrong about that either. Sorry.

          • You still have no idea what patchwork means in this context so misinterpret would be an understatement but please keep embarrassing yourself for my amusement…

            “you don’t understand what I mean when I say patchwork blah blah blah blah”

            I’m sorry you were saying something, I could have sworn that you would have actually contributed something to your argument instead of insisting that people don’t understand what you say

            How exactly am I taking what you are saying out of context?

            Mate the only thing thats a patchwork is your argument,

            Also can I bring this up (since you thoughtfully brought it up before)
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

            I think patchwork might be one of those wonderful weasel words. And whenever someone proves you are wrong, they are taking you “out of context” without even stating how, or why.

            What exactly is the context HC. So far it seems to be whenever you are wrong

          • I’ve already explained to you what patchwork means, it is not my fault if you still are unable to comprehend it, everyone else can to except you it seems. The plan the coalition put forward is a substandard patchwork plan. It’s simple. Get over it. Move on.

          • And I already explained to you that what you call a patchwork plan is a standard all over the world. You still did not provide any evidence whatsoever of my taking what you say out of context, heck as I showed earlier I in fact directly and exactly retold your position

            You simply cannot handle that you are incorrect in this matter

  4. I could not believe how hopeless the the Liberals were at handling the NBN. Turnbull seems to be the only one that understood what it was and he wasn’t allowed to talk about it. Very badly handled..

  5. Yes it’s funny how the on one hand if the NBN was so ‘popular’ with residents in Tasmania the uptake would be at a all time high in the first pilot areas, oh hang on no it wasn’t, the Tasmania pilot uptake was abysmally poor.

    I think it’s all about perception not what happened in reality post NBN rollout, and we are only talking about one seat in all of Australia Bass in this analysis.

    Reith says “Bass might have been a win instead of a loss,” they key word being ‘might’, also keep in mind if a election was held this weekend Labor would be rolled, and the Coalition don’t even have a alternative broadband policy yet.

    • LOL… the huddle has broken…and guess who is here?

      As usual 99% of the info, even from his own masters, is ignored and the word “might” honed in on…

      Precious…!

    • Well the matter of fact is, the situation with the last election was different

      The party that got into power was decided by kingmakers, not the voters.

      The reason why the coalition lost was that the kingmakers saw broadband as a much more important then anything else

      The opinion of voters however is the exact opposite, as Tel posted in the other thread the NBN is the lowest priority

      There was nothing wrong with the coalition not putting so much emphasis on broadband as Labor did, the result happened because of a rare situation (hung parliament) where the few speak for the many

      • @ deteego, for someone who claims to be non-politically motivated you strangely always seem to support the Coalition.. (please note: I dislike all politicians, but support the NBN)…!

        But funny you mention Kingmakers.. whereas the Liberal party clearly say one seat in Tassie was pivotal…! The one seal which would have given them government…

        So please, as the old saying goes “denial is a river in Egypt”…!

        • Im just stating why the situation is different, there was a hung parliament situation, where whoever got into power was decided by a few members of parliament

          Unless you are denying this is the case

          • As I said to your clone below, because personally IDGAF…

            Well, bring it up at your next Lib branch meeting deteego… don’t tell us, your argument is with them!

          • If, as you said, IDGAF, why are you responding to my comments

            Are you trying to troll on purpouse

          • All out of excuses so cry troll… tsk, tsk.

            What I am actually trying to do is penetrate those layers of radical conservatism, force field, LOL, around you so that you are finally able to see the NBN as an issue rather than a political football.

            As such, hoping for you (and your 3 clones) to stop doing exactly as Michael Malone said…

            “Malone told the audience that “unfortunately”, ideas regarding the NBN were being judged by who put them forth, “rather than on their technical merit”. “I’d like to see a return to that,” he said with regards to discussing ideas on their technical merit”…

          • No seriously, if you don’t care why are you even posting?

            What I am actually trying to do is penetrate those layers of radical conservatism, force field, LOL, around you so that you are finally able to see the NBN as an issue rather than a political football.

            Hahaha!

            Getting psychoanalytical here?

            Let me tell you one thing

            You are completely failing on numerous accounts
            1. I am not conservative
            2. NBN is a political football

            “Malone told the audience that “unfortunately”, ideas regarding the NBN were being judged by who put them forth, “rather than on their technical merit”. “I’d like to see a return to that,” he said with regards to discussing ideas on their technical merit”…

            NBN is being built for political reasons, not for technical and/or economic merit

            What Malone wants is a fantasy

          • Oh dear… talk about complete failure…

            deteego says let me tell you ONE thing, then says (and I quote)

            1.
            2.

            LOL! I think you just beat “before roads there were no roads”, from your mate as dumbest comment ever…!

            Anyway to deteego’s ONE point(s)…

            1. Radically ultra conservative/extremist… sorry, my faux pas

            2. (or how about 1a…just for you tiges). No quite simply at its core… it’s an upgrade of communications systems for Australia and Australians. The fact that you want to “over politicise it”, demonstrates your clear motives (refer 1).

            Sigh…!

          • Again, if you actually knew me personally (or anyone I know), they would laugh in your face for calling me conservative. Just because I happen to vote for a conservative party does not mean I am conservative

            Like most of the people that vote for the greens, are not really “green” (because almost all of the green policies are basically soviet style/over regulated government dictatorial based policies)

            So let me give you some advice

            1. Dont be psychoanalytical on forums. You utterly fail at it (get a degree in psychology if you want to be somewhat effective, because its clear you need one)
            2. The upgrade is being done for political reasons. If a company was doing an upgrade, I wouldn’t be politicizing it at all

          • Yeah, yeah…

            Unless you have now completed your degree.

            Or simply failed and just gave up (which of course would be the NBN/Labor’s fault, LOL)…

            We “both know the truth”…

          • Lol, so much fail on your side

            I already told you people to stop finding out who I am

          • Again IDGAF who you are, in fact I’d rather avoid people like you…

            But you brought up psychoanalysis and you my friend (and I say friend with complete insincerity) can be read like a book…!

            Probably best FOR YOU, for us to leave it there, as this isn’t the place for this kind of personal detail and whilst I enjoy embarrassing you and your political crusade, it’s really not cricket to be going in to ones personal life, here (UNLESS YOU WANT TO CONTINUE)… it’s up to you!

        • I don’t know what you are trying to get at here. According to you anyone that votes for a political party is a political person

          I have voted for Labor before, I vote for the party that I think is the best. For this time, it is the coalition. Maybe when Labor get their act together, I might consider them, but I wouldn’t currently touch them with a 30 foot yard stick

          • @.deteego!

            What I am trying to get at and successfully so, is that you and 3 others incessant antiNBN BS, is politically driven, due to you associations with the opposition and that all of your biased comments should be rated accordingly…

            So let’s psychoanalyse your voting claims, shall we…

            – You are (approx.) 21 years old
            – You live in Sydney
            – Since you have been old enough to vote there has only been one Federal (maybe two if you just snuck in for 2007) and one State election.

            So…according to you, you either voted for Rudd in 2007, Gillard in 2010 or Whatshername in NSW in 2011?

            LMFAO…

            Look there’s nothing wrong with being a Lib (or Labor) servant (thanks again Tosh) just come clean and tell us, that you bag the NBN because politically, you must (even though it’s totally against everything your schooling has taught you)…!

          • How can I be 21 years old when I have already established I have voted at least twice

            Jesus, you fail harder then I thought

          • Der… once State 2011 & once Federal 2010, my god you are getting even sillier in your desperation… and depending upon if I’m out by a few months you may have snuck in in 2007, so did you vote for Rudd, Gillard or Kennealy (was it)?

            Look, you have been found lying AGAIN…just skulk off or refuse to correspond with me, just like 2 of your 3 clones have already done, when also found lying…!

      • Well the only real difference between CLP and Labor policy last election was the NBN. Now CLP policy seems to be not what labor is doing.

        • Well the only real difference between CLP and Labor policy last election was the NBN. Now CLP policy seems to be not what labor is doing.

          If you honestly think that then I think there isn’t any real point in arguing

          The two parties (especially at this time) are the most diametrically opposed. Hell, heard of the Carbon Tax? You know that thing constantly in the news? I am pretty damn sure that the Coalition not doing a carbon tax is quite different to another party going full forward with it

          Man I think these tech sites attract all the mentally deficient or ignorant

          • Sorry thought we were talking about LAST election and there really wasn’t that much difference between the two although the CLP where more of a climate change deniers but labor wasn’t realy willing to do much either at that stage. On economics say what you might about stimulus package we sure as hell avoided the worst of the GFC, and any government who gets a surplus by selling down asset has nothing to brag about. Ask yourself this question would you buy a business as a long term prospect if it was selling down assets to stay afloat? Both asylum seeker policies were/are a joke. As I said there difference NOW is CLP says not what labor are doing which is reflected in the carbon price.

      • Quite correct. I think the hung election surprised everyone, and the NBN being the clincher surprised everyone, inc. Labor. There was no skill in winning this one, nor was their good policies from either side, remember that leading up to the election, the election was being touted as a no policies election, both parties absolute failures in addressing our issues.

        The thing then became surreal as the balance of power was in the hands of a few country bogans who did not understand broadband but liked the idea that Labor would pump a who lot of taxpayer money in giving them a rolls royce instead of a tractor to meet their needs.

        What happens after that? Labor then goes on an NBN high, starts going on a recruiting and spending spree, believing – for lack of intelligence or policies that somehow the NBN will win them another election, and a bit of self deception that it is a good policy, if not at least the only decent policy that Gillard has proposed turns out in reality a poor one.

      • “The opinion of voters however is the exact opposite, as Tel posted in the other thread the NBN is the lowest priority”

        And how would you know this? What a poll taken with a sampling of 100 voters or did you take a poll of the 22+ million people to determine this answer?

    • Also another thing to note, while the coalition may have specifically lost the last election due to broadband, the only reason Gillard one was by telling a lie (there will be no Carbon Tax). The statement was to keep all the working class voters to stick to Labor, which caused the hung parliament situations

      I would rather be in the former then in the latter, especially considering the pathetic position of the labor party currently

      • FFS, please stop the subserviency to your masters…

        As I said to you before tiger, the sooner you understand that they are all politicians, regardless of ideology and that one is no better than the other (because they tell lies), the sooner we can take your biased radcon comments even minimally serious.

        Gillard said no carbon tax
        Howard said never ever a GST

        See…!

        Go on tell me Howard took it to an election, so it wasn’t a lie “after all”…shakes head!

          • LOL… Again tell us you aren’t politically biased…

            If a PM says, there will be no carbon tax or there will never ever be a GST and then later they (notice I’m not taking sides – YOU ARE) introduce them… were they telling lies – YES OR NO…?

            No ifs, ands or buts…! Yes or no?

      • @deteego:
        Gillard lied? Yes, but that was a price she had to pay. We were already going to have a carbon tax BEFOREHAND if you look at the previous election. Infact there was a mandate for it. But the coalition did everything they could to blockade it and every other Labor policy because they could. Very very rarely do they put forward an alternate viewpoint. If they did this, and had a more forward thinking viewpoint (at present they are far more focused on the status quo.)

        TBH if the coalition had more forward thinking policies, looking more than towards the next election, they would be viewed far better. Get a few policies that are good for Autralia’s long term improvement, which funnily enough is more digital than they have so far admitted, and it will go different at the polls. said policies however cannot be leaning towards one side as workchoices did (most of that was fine, just a few pieces were way off base).

  6. Seems like the four, usual suspect political FUDsters, are all in a huddle trying to devise their strategy here, before the FUD starts flowing A G A I N…!

    Because if they say, no it wasn’t a factor or claim, well it was only one seat, they will be going against their masters…

    Careful “boys”…LOL!

  7. If labour win the next election, then I (and most Australians) will have the NBN by the end of the next political term, if the coalition win the next election, there’s a good chance that I will not ever get the NBN, so that’s something that is being taken away from me if I vote liberal next time. Why would I vote for someone that wants to take something away from me? Even if it’s just the promise of good things to come.

    All other things being as they are now, if the Liberal party committed to the NBN rollout as it stands (FTTP to most places) they would get my vote. Without that commitment, I won’t take the risk that i’ll be left with something other than fibre to my house.

      • Wasn’t that you admitting in another thread that you’ll be voting liberal based on the NBN decision alone?

          • So after I asked you the question “And you’ll be voting for the collation based on the NBN issue and their promise to either halt it or “destroy” it?” you never said:

            “Bad policy deserves to be destroyed, and I regard the NBN as a bad policy.”

            So are you flip-flopping now or was your statement just a convenient weasel like dodge? You wont be voting liberal?

          • No you are creating a strawman
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

            Please tell me where I stated that I only voted for coalition based on the NBN. I said that I think the NBN is a bad policy and so I oppose it, and that is all

            I appreciate that you have to resort to using logical fallacies to try and get some credence, but it won’t work with me

          • “No you are creating a strawman”

            No I’m not, your response was to my question which clearly stated “NBN issue” so given your recent comments I am asking you to clarify your position on the subject. Did you miss the question mark?

          • I don’t need to clarify anything, you are creating a strawman

            I simply stated that I oppose the NBN, and one of the reasons I vote for the coalition is because they vote for the NBN

            I have never, ever stated that I only vote due to the NBN, That is a strawman that you have created. You are asking for clarification on strawman that you created yourself

          • ROFL

            You are the one using weasel words with patchwork. You still have not clearly defined what you mean by patchwork, even after asking you 3 times

            I have not used a single weasel word, and if I have then point it out. Everything I have said is clear, I voted for the coalition knowing that they oppose the NBN policy (and I support that position myself)

            Honestly if you have issues understanding that, then maybe you need to go back to grade school and learn some comprehension

          • “You still have not clearly defined what you mean by patchwork”

            Yes I did.

            “Everything I have said is clear, I voted for the coalition knowing that they oppose the NBN policy (and I support that position myself)”

            It’s clear now but wasn’t in your previous posts. So your official line is that you’ll be voting for the liberal party but not for reasons based purely on the NBN issue. Great. So based on this would it also be safe to assume that other people voting for the liberal party may actually be in favour of the NBN since there are various issues people make these decisions on?

            “maybe you need to go back to grade school and learn some comprehension”

            You don’t even understand that words (like patchwork) can have different meanings in different contexts so perhaps you are the one that needs to learn a bit of comprehension.

          • Interesting HC…

            I have been saying for sometime that deteego appears to me, to be a Lib servant (thanks Tosh)… but he said no he isn’t, he’s simply here because he opposes the NBN…

            But now he, surprise, surprise, is contradicting that and indeed proving what I have said all along…!

          • Yes I did

            Oh you did then? Mind repeating what you mean then? I am still waiting for what you mean by patchwork

          • And I’m still awaiting a simple yes or no from you…

            Seems it’s ok for YOUR party to lie, but not for the others?

            Personally I think they both lied (all lie actually as I clearly previously said)… because they both said one thing but did another, but then I have no political cross to bear…!

          • “Mind repeating what you mean then? I am still waiting for what you mean by patchwork”

            Scroll upwards dummy. Unable to figure it out, unable to use a basic mouse wheel, no wonder these ones support the coalitions patchwork plan LOL.

    • You don’t NEED fibre to your house, for starters.

      Second, Labor’s big idea that hospitals would be so much better off with the NBN waas crazy, given that hospitals are on fibre already.

      Third, Labor’s big idea that, suddenly, everyone will work from home if there’s an NBN is just crazy. Goodluck to my milkman, the guy painting the house and the local police to all work from home.

      Fourth, wireless continues to come on in leaps and bounds and is the future.

      Fifth, fibre eventually degrades and needs to be dug up again! Yet no one puts that to these Labor idiots who seem to think it can sit there, indefinitely, like copper.

      I could go on, but honestly, when you’re arguing with kids who just want to download porn faster and get better ping times in online games, they don’t listen.

      And the cost? Without so much as a costing plan behind it? Crazy. Pure and utter crazy.

        • Of course this may never happen

          I for one thing, will not need fiber to my home, even in 2020

          If I want faster speeds, I can just get Telstra’s/Cable speed pack (assuming that the NBN doesn’t go ahead or isn’t in the area)

          Of course if the NBN does by some reason complete, then yes you will need fiber to the house, because its the only way to get fixed line internet

          • Well it’s settled then Australia DOES NOT need an NBN because deteego is satisfied with what he already has…

            What a compelling argument!

          • “because its the only way to get fixed line internet”

            How many fixed line options do we have now?

          • “We have three”

            Who is “we”?

            “xDSL/HFC/Fiber”

            Nope. Only copper here in this house. Can I get the other two installed so I can have a choice and swap between them on a whim?

          • Well go move somewhere else then

            I can’t get a pool where I live, nor can I get train station thats nearby where I used to live. So I moved.

            If you want a better service, pay for it.

          • ‘Well go move somewhere else then”

            That’s some interesting logic there “move” I guess I can use that one on the people complaining about hospitals and schools now!

          • I would like to see your argument that you need fiber connection to your home to survive, or get an education

            FTTH is a want, not a need. Certain business need fiber to their premises (and universities, hospitals etc etc) and for the most part they do have it

            That fact that people see NBN as the last priority means clearly that they do not see fiber internet as essential to schools or hospitals

          • @ deteego…

            Yes that could be your precious “Private Enterprises” new slogan…

            At (enter Telco/ISP of your choice here)… we pride ourselves on supplying outdated technologies to the elite few, so if we don’t supply you… “bad fkn luck…MOVE…”!

            You could hire Sol to be the face of this new wonder campaign! Anyway…

            So, after telling HC to move (with another stupid analogy – yes everyone should have TTTP – train to the premises…sigh) tell us again that Private Enterprise will provide for our nation… go on!

          • It provides you for what you need, not for what you want

            Many people want fiber, I can almost guarantee that everyone on this site does not require the speeds unique to fiber (100mb+)

            The private enterprise will not give everyone cakes, because cakes are not free, people have to make and bake them, and that time and money comes from the people

          • I assume your on a ADSL connection now.
            20years ago did you need an ADSL connection?
            10years ago did you need an ADSL connectiong faster and 256k?
            40years ago did we need an internet connection in every home?

            We only have history to tell us what we might need in the future.
            We could go with the CLP which base on history we already know is not going to meet future data demands.
            Or build something that will meet growth for the next 50+years.

          • @Matthew

            “20years ago did you need an ADSL connection?”

            No.

            “10years ago did you need an ADSL connectiong faster and 256k?”

            No, and many residences who can get higher speeds are happy with cheap 256K in 2011 , what does that tell you?

            “40years ago did we need an internet connection in every home?”

            No, does every residence need one in 2011?, many residences don’t have BB at all by choice, or are on all wireless.

            “We only have history to tell us what we might need in the future.”

            No we don’t, if that was that was the case the highest speed BB HFC would be saturated with a waiting list for ‘free slots’ , it isn’t, and everyone that can get ADSL2+ would be on it, that’s not the case many are happy with 1500/256 or wireless only, what does that tell you?

          • “If I want faster speeds, I can just get Telstra’s/Cable speed pack”

            But if anyone else wants faster speeds they should “move somewhere else”???

            “Of course if the NBN does by some reason complete, then yes you will need fiber to the house”

            In which case if you want slower speeds then you can just move to where they still have copper and/or move into 7% area not serviced by fibre! LOL!

          • Pretty silly comparison since we are talking about services and public infrastructure, there is a big difference between that and houses… you dont necessarily have to move btw, you could bulldoze the old house and just build a nice new and improved house on the same property, oh no wait we cant do that because 1. It would cost more and 2. It would employ people. We certainly cant have that now can we.

      • Congratulations rob you just used every single worn out and debunked argument from The Australian in one post. btw you cant go on because all your last point proves is that you cant be taken seriously in this debate. So why are you on the internet now? Online gambling I assume?

      • Rob,

        you just don’t get it. when most NBN proponents look at M Quigley, they see a gentleman dressed in a Santa Claus outfit sitting in a Labor-designed sleigh loaded with free gifts for everyone.

  8. There are 150 electorates in Australia, this Coalition analysis of Bass one small provincial electorate in Tasmania with a population of about 74,000 where the outcome MIGHT have been better if the Coalition had negated the NBN tells us that’s how all of Australia MIGHT have voted?

    LOL

  9. Rob @ 3:01pm

    Don’t make stuff up. Fibre DOES NOT “eventually degrade”. It is made of glass, an extremely stable substance. Copper DOES degrade. One of the justifications for the NBN is that if it isn’t built the copper will have to be replaced, some urgently. Copper, voltage, and moisture do not mix well, and this is the downfall of copper cables as they age. There is no voltage in fibre, it is an insulator after all.

    • I don’t know where you are getting your science from, but Copper is one of the most inert materials on the planet (where as glass is basically completely inert)

      Copper does not rust, and can (and has) lasted hundreds of years, If it insulated (which the copper that is being installed is), it can easily last generations

      Fiber cabling can suffer from things like UV radiation and whatnot. Each type of cable has their advantages and disadvantages regarding the lifespan and in what type of environments it degrades

      • deteego said – “it (copper) can easily last generations”…

        Yes.. and it has lasted generations, so what now?

        Patch fibre and copper (which has already lasted generations, so as deteego inadvertently inferred is now nearing it’s lifespan ending) together and cross your fingers… brilliant [sic]!

      • When exposed to air and/or water, what happens to Copper? It goes green as the surface turns to Copper oxide; ie, it rusts.

        What happens to class when exposed to air and/or water? Well, nothing. If you’re suggesting fibre optics are so sensitive to UV light, then why aren’t the windows in your house getting more brittle by the day and falling out?

        • Uh, that is not rust. Copper cannot rust

          What you are talking about is oxidization, and that happens when copper is uninsulated,

          Furthermore it is just an out coating, and its easily stripped off. It has a completely negligible effect on bandwidth

          To put things into perspective, the entire Statue of Liberty is built out of copper. I am pretty damn sure it woulnd’t have lasted so long if it could rust

        • if copper “rusts”, they wouldn’t be using copper pots and pans in French kitchens… and obviously when cooking it’s exposed to water, air and salt all the time.

          what’s more – copper cookware costs a shitload and are premium utensils.

  10. It’s known as verdigris or patina… deteego!

    But since you wish to bring up stupid analogies… perhaps you and the Coalition could build a statue of Liberty node for every street to attach the fibre to and … it could also double as a mobile tower, brilliant….!

  11. The Liberals just don’t get it…..the Federal Government’s purpose is to be the Australian nation builder, not the top Australian merchant banker…for 12 years Howard did absolutely no infrastructure building …all he did was pay down debt…big deal..Tony Abbott .is exactly the same as Howard…..TOTALLY SHORT SIGHTED.

  12. Renai, can you please tell deteego and RS to get a room somewhere else for their private bickering?

    The coalition are stupidly allowing the ALP to hang on to its only popular policy, when they could simply adopt it and leave Labor nothing to offer the electorate in 2013. I hope they wake up soon.

  13. Telstra says that its copper in underground ducts has an expected useful life of around thirty years, which means most of it is now due for replacement.

    British Telecom says that its optical fibre (which is laid within a protective poly tube filled with gel) has a life expectancy of at least forty years, but probably more than a century.

    Now, what should we be replacing the copper with?

    At the 2010 election, Labor said fibre, while the coalition said let’s ask the market to build wireless. And they turned an utterly unloseable election into a cliffhanger a few days later.

    Now they realise it was a mistake. What will they offer in 2013?

    • Now they realise it was a mistake. What will they offer in 2013?

      A government, and they are well on track on doing so

    • @Francis Young

      “Telstra says that its copper in underground ducts has an expected useful life of around thirty years,”

      No it didn’t.

      ” which means most of it is now due for replacement.”

      No it isn’t, keeping in mind the NBN Co expects the copper to have to last 10-20 years it interesting where you are going with that statement – nowhere I guess.

      “British Telecom says that its optical fibre (which is laid within a protective poly tube filled with gel) has a life expectancy of at least forty years, but probably more than a century.”

      Probably more than a century or probably not? LOL

      “Now, what should we be replacing the copper with?”

      FTTN and wireless perhaps?

      ” while the coalition said let’s ask the market to build wireless.”

      No they didn’t.

      ” And they turned an utterly unloseable election into a cliffhanger a few days later.”

      The unloseable election was from Labor’s point of view NOT the Coalition, never mind your BS is at least consistent, so taking that point of view Labor nearly lost the election with the NBN and scraped into power courtesy of a few Independents.

      “Now they realise it was a mistake”

      No they don’t, the seat under analysis by Reith in his report was one seat Bass in Tasmania, the conclusion was they said negating the NBN MIGHT have made a difference

      “. What will they offer in 2013?”

      They don’t have to offer anything, the NBN is irrelevant in the scale of concerns of what motivates voters in wanting to boot Labor out!

      BTW Love your work FY.

  14. Attention, Delimiter posters!

    This is your overlord speaking. You will please be more polite towards each other, or I will start bringing out the ban stick. You don’t even have to be on topic — just don’t try and kill each other constantly. RS, I am looking at you here — I’ve banned you before, and I will again, unless you quit your personal attacks. Tosh, you often walk a fine line, but know that I am also scrutinising your posts.

    Posting on Delimiter is a privilege, not a right, and I will selectively withdraw it if you break our only rule: No personal attacks.

    The good news is that I am shortly to be implementing an improved forum system on Delimiter. This means that you will be able to shout at each other in a much more ‘free’ manner. More on this later.

    Cheers,

    Renai

  15. @Renai

    “The good news is that I am shortly to be implementing an improved forum system on Delimiter. This means that you will be able to shout at each other in a much more ‘free’ manner. More on this later.”

    That’s good news?

  16. Good to see Abbotts mentality of “destroy everything Labor” no matter what is sticking with his diehard supporters.

    Lets hope the NBN costs you the NEXT election as well.

    • Where as the Labor policy of ‘destroy everything Coalition’ when they cancelled the OPEL rollout when they got into power in 2007 is ok?

      “Lets hope the NBN costs you the NEXT election as well.”

      The NBN is the least of electors worries about this Labor Government, if a election was held this weekend Labor will be rolled without the Coalition having any Comms policy whatever!

      The need for HD video conferencing to four points in the home is not high on the list of needs in your average Australian residence.

      • You’re lacking more then a Broadband policy mate. You’re lacking any policy AT ALL.

        You may as well cling to your “If there was an election today…” excuse because there isn’t going to be an election today. Nor tomorrow. Nor the day after.

        See you in 2013, when HD video conferencing is the last thing people are using the NBN for.

        • “See you in 2013, when HD video conferencing is the last thing people are using the NBN for.”

          Yes I see, they will be using it for email, web browsing and Facebook, you can do that with 1500/256 ADSL and wireless BB, even in 2013 , but that’s not what you meant I take it?

          • You inconsiderate little wank, I am on a congested exchange that Telstra have not bothered to fix since long before the NBN was even in the public domain, as are a LOT of people.

            I refuse to put up with it anymore, so instead of you penny pinching because you’re too busy thinking about YOU, take a step back and realize politics is about the COUNTRY.

          • Oh it\’s time for the inevitable personal attack, a quick change of subject matter to it’s all about ‘MY exchange’, well at least I know what your agenda is, what do you mean ‘congested exchange’, it’s run out of room for more ADSL gear or what?

          • Yes exactly, there’s no more ports left, and at peak times, for example 2pm-midnight, the fastest download speed anyone in my area can achieve is 2mbps.

            2. If you had to put up with that, you would want the NBN too. Don’t worry though, I’ve had this debate with another Coalition diehard already, and guess what their argument was;

            Move house. That’s what they said. So instead of the infrastructure coming to me, as a TAXPAYER, I have to go to it.

            I refuse to accept that argument, and I’m sure the thousands of other families in my shoes would have the same opinion.

            Telstra cannot be trusted with this anymore.

          • It sounds like you are on a RIM which can be problematical for ADSL, and you are correct I would not be happy in your situation.

            But my view is a $43 billion taxpayer funded FTTH rollout is not the most cost efficient and only solution to solving your problem

          • $36 billion (not 43) for infrastructure that will be in place for 50 to 100 years. I’m afraid you’re wrong in that regard. As for the argument “A better technology will be produced in that time”, that is a catch 22. There will always be a better technology. It isn’t going to just stop.

          • Let’s not argue about the flaky NBN costing predictions, we will be here all day, suffice to say upgrading your RIM would still be cheaper and faster time wise in giving you a solution.

            :)

  17. @ Goddy.. Move is their argument here too, surprise surprise.

    But as HC pointed out above, whilst telling you to move, one of them smugly said, if he wanted a speed increase he’d simply get Telstra’s cable/speed pack.

    Disgraecful selfishness and political subserviency imo…!

  18. More self indulgent reporting from the IT industry to prop up the NBN. Fact: the Howard Givernment was heavily defeated in the previous election. They were not even suppose to be able to win the last election, especially with Tony Abbott leading. Fact: the Coalition team out performed beyond everyone’s expectation. Had Labor told the truth on the Carbon (Dioxide) tax, the Colaiton would have won a majority. Now you turn that into the NBN losing it for the Coalition? What self indulgent nonsense.

        • Ohhh really, well if you want to talk about “selective quoting”, go give the Daily Telegraph and The Australian a read.

        • I actually read the Coalition document and it does not say what this article presents.

          I suggest people go and read the assessment, instead of the fluff in this article. The NBN is only mentioned on 2 pages (and 1 being very brief).
          .

          • Don’t waste your breath, Renai. You’re preaching to a subservient. It’s like trying to tell the Borg they can’t assimilate you.

  19. At the risk of stirring the copper-based cooking pot, Telstra themselves told a Senate Estimates committee:
    “I think it is right to suggest that ADSL is an interim technology. It is probably the last sweating, if you like, of the old copper network assets. In copper years, if you like, we are at a sort of transition—we are at five minutes to midnight. ”

    Copper degrades – whether you call it rust, corrosion or patina doesn’t matter, the experiences of people with waterlogged pits and corroded joints getting poor voice communications, let alone high frequency data, are too common. Glass may also degrade given enough time – but the real comparison is that glass lasts a whole lot longer than metallic cable.

    There is no dispute that glass fibre has a better future than copper cable. It seems to me the dispute is mainly around who pays for it.

  20. “The failure to properly explain the Liberal Party’s broadband policy and the Labor Party’s effective scare campaign was a major cause of the party’s failure to win seats in Tasmania,” the report states.

    I’d like to know what this so called “Labor Scare Campaign” is all about. The only advertising I recall regarding the NBN showed positive, but admittedly fluffy ads about the benefits the NBN could deliver. The real awareness of the NBN came from David Bartlett’s excellent involvement in it’s initial roll-out, local media reporting showing maps and photos of it being rolled out, and through word of mouth, which generated real enthusiasm from people that understood how much the NBN can help connect Tasmania’s small isolated communities, that currently suffer from terrible broadband availability. People here seem to get how the NBN can really help our struggling economy.

    I know quite a few people, and more importantly businesses, in the greater Hobart area, who still can’t get broadband other than wireless, and are hanging for the NBN to be rolled out in their suburb. I imagine it’s not as much of an issue in other states where people have been enjoying ADSL2 for a long time.

    As for people quoting poor up-take rates, firstly the numbers were actually above the expected target, and secondly, to understand why it didn’t take off like wildfire you have to look at the types of places the NBN has been rolled out first, to understand why a lot of residents haven’t signed up (this isn’t taking into account the fact that a lot of people are still on contract with their exiting internet too). Smithton for example is a tiny rural town on the outskirts of North West Tasmania, that is largely driven by fishing, farming and mining (from the mining town Queenstown which is in short driving distance). Not exactly the type of people that are educated about broadband or even care that it exists. Uptake will always be slow in areas like that, that are are hardly indicative of the take-up rates expected when the NBN is available in larger metropolitan areas like Launceston and Hobart.

    And please people before posting the usual anti NBN bullshit, I’m not here to argue about the merits of the NBN. I’m simply stating my thoughts on what I know about my home state and the public view of it in Tasmania. The perception of the NBN is much more positive down here than it seems to be in other areas. We even have bi-partisan support for it from both Liberal and Labor leaders. Hence we had a higher vote for Labor during the last federal election than any other state, as the NBN is much more of an issue for Tasmania than other areas.

    • Tasmania: They might have two heads, but at least that gives them the mental capacity to get their facts straight.

    • @Simon Reidy

      Oh good another ‘Simon Reidy post’, where to start.

      “I’d like to know what this so called “Labor Scare Campaign” is all about.”

      My your memory is short when it suits, perhaps it was this campaign in which the ‘scare’ is being continued to this day.

      http://delimiter.com.au/2011/06/30/gillard-is-ripping-up-labors-nbn-credibility/

      ” which generated real enthusiasm from people that understood how much the NBN can help connect Tasmania’s small isolated communities, that currently suffer from terrible broadband availability. People here seem to get how the NBN can really help our struggling economy.”

      Didn’t help the uptake though did it, so how enthusiastic are they?

      “I know quite a few people, and more importantly businesses, in the greater Hobart area, who still can’t get broadband other than wireless, and are hanging for the NBN to be rolled out in their suburb. I imagine it’s not as much of an issue in other states where people have been enjoying ADSL2 for a long time.”

      I am sure there are communities all over Australia in the same situation, the solution is not JUST a Labor FTTH or nothing though is it?

      “As for people quoting poor up-take rates, firstly the numbers were actually above the expected target,”

      What target figures? – oh you mean the target figures that came out AFTER the poor uptake figures came in and then they said ‘they were above target’ – brilliant strategy that don’t you think?, that way any poor uptake figure is always going to be ‘above target’ because you wait post rollout uptake to publish them.
      Above target is you expected 10 and got 11 as well, of course there is no such term as ‘below target’, it doesn’t exist using that strategy,.

      “(this isn’t taking into account the fact that a lot of people are still on contract with their exiting internet too).”

      No you cannot take that into account because you have no idea what that figures is and if it is statistically significant anyway, but stuff all of that, mention it anyway, it insinuates that is what the problem was, that’s near enough.

      ‘” Not exactly the type of people that are educated about broadband or even care that it exists.”

      I am sure the residents of those areas in Tasmania are ecstatic about your glib analysis about their intelligence, I remember that Four Corners program on the NBN where they interviewed people from those areas, they seemed articulate enough to me, they knew about it all right,they just didn’t want it, hard to digest I know but there you go.

      ” Uptake will always be slow in areas like that, that are are hardly indicative of the take-up rates expected when the NBN is available in larger metropolitan areas like Launceston and Hobart.”

      So what’s the uptake figures with a signed ISP NBN Plan from Midway Point and inner urban Brunswick in Victoria then?

      ” I’m simply stating my thoughts on what I know about my home state and the public view of it in Tasmania.”

      No it’s not the public view, it’s just your sole opinion of what you think their opinion is.

      ” The perception of the NBN is much more positive down here than it seems to be in other areas.”

      What is the perception of the NBN in ‘other areas’ that is so negative, and how have you measured this so we know what we are comparing with what here?

      ” We even have bi-partisan support for it from both Liberal and Labor leaders. “Hence we had a higher vote for Labor during the last federal election than any other state, as the NBN is much more of an issue for Tasmania than other areas.”

      How do you know it was the NBN that got Labor the higher vote in Tasmania?

      That National swing against Labor at the 2010 election was -5.4%, where they lost 16 seats and the Coalition won 14, the swing to Labor in Tasmania was only +1.2%, the Greens in Tasmania had a higher swing than Labor did at +3.3%.

      How you interpret that as a + 1.2% endorsement of the Labor NBN is beyond me.

      Perhaps you can explain how you did it?

      • @alain

        So the election in August 2010 was effected by a “scare tactic” comment made in June 2011…

        Was it a time machine scare tactic?

    • FFS, is this what the anti-NBN argument has reduced itself to..!

      Bit like at other forums where the same (type of) low lives, posted anti-NBN comments using my name…

      Disgraceful!

  21. Renai,

    Can you please take this in context with the libs latest revolting policy release re: their flavor of NBN (FTTN)….they have not learned.

    FTTN lost them the election in 2010, and they are sticking with it, why??

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