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  • News, Telecommunications - Written by on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:32 - 66 Comments

    Turnbull inaccurate on internet filter details

    news Malcolm Turnbull has appeared to make a number of incorrect statements over the past week regarding the Federal Government’s now defunct mandatory Internet filtering policy, as the Shadow Communications Minister and other senior Coalition figures continues to make inaccurate statements in the communications portfolio.

    Last week, almost five years after the current Labor Federal Government starting trying to force its controversial mandatory Internet filter policy on an extremely unwilling Australian population, Communications Minister Stephen Conroy formally dumped the policy in favour of a much more limited system already in place at Telstra and Optus. The move was welcomed by most in Australia’s technology sector, although some retain concerns about the implementation of the new, more limited scheme.

    Over the past week, Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has conducted a number of interviews and issued statements about the Government’s changed policy. In general, Turnbull’s approach has been to note that the mandatory filter project was always a bad idea that wouldn’t meet its policy aims.

    “It was bad for freedom, it was bad for freedom of speech and peoples’ freedom to use the Internet,” Turnbull said in a doorstop interview in Adelaide on Friday. “It was going to slow the Internet. But above all, it was going to create a false sense of security among parents because his scheme would not be effective in stopping material about child pornography and other dangerous material being available online. It would have encourage parents to think the Government was making it all safe when it wasn’t.”

    In addition, Turnbull heavily criticised Conroy for what he saw as a heavy-handed approach that the Labor Senator has taken with the telecommunications sector in general over the past five years in which he has been Communications Minister.

    “The fact of the matter is this: The only reason he is not proceeding with it is because he knows he cannot get it through the Parliament,” Turnbull said of Conroy’s filter backdown. “This is a telecommunications minister who is drunk with power. And you don’t have to take my word for it – take his. He has said and I repeat it. He said, I am so powerful that if I command telecoms executives to wear red underpants on their heads they will do so. That is how arrogant Stephen Conroy is.”

    “That is his approach to the industry. And everyone in the media industry should be very, very concerned about the constant grab for power. Whether it’s regulating newspapers, acquiring more power over the electronic media – always he’s seeking to acquire more control and he’s been rebuffed on this occasion.”

    In general, Turnbull’s statements with regard to the filter appeared to be accurate (such as his statement that the Federal Government does not have the support in the Senate to get its filter legislation through the Parliament), or a matter of opinion — such as whether Conroy has been too heavy-handed in his approach to overseeing the telecommunications sector. In this last case opinions in the industry itself differ on whether Conroy’s approach has been appropriate or not.

    However, in several statements, Turnbull did make several misrepresentations with respect to the filter policy in general and the Coalition’s approach to it.

    For example, in his doorstop interview in Adelaide, Turnbull said with respect to the mandatory Internet filter: ” … for five years we’ve been saying: ‘This won’t work, it shouldn’t be put in place. We’ve got to give parents the tools to be more vigilant to enable them to take responsibility.” Turnbull added: “Well I’m not complaining. I’m pleased that they’ve done it. But it just demonstrates what an incompetent Government it is, that it’s taken them five years to realise that their scheme won’t work. And five years to realise that they haven’t got the numbers to get it through the Parliament.”

    However, in actual fact the Coalition has only spoken in public against the mandatory Internet filter policy for about two and a half years. Senior Coalition figures repeatedly refused to comment on the policy — despite widespread public opposition to it — until March 2010, when Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey first publicly came out against the policy, as the first senior Coalition figure to do so. In August 2010, Hockey revealed for the first time that the Coalition would vote in the Senate against any legislation attempting to introduce the filter.

    That same month, Turnbull — at that stage only an MP, as he had not yet been appointed Shadow Communications Minister — gave his first major statement on the filter at a forum he held in his electorate to discuss the matter with the public. That occasion was also one of the first times that fellow Liberal MP and former Optus executive Paul Fletcher commented on the filter policy.

    In his comments last week, Turnbull also alleged that the Federal Government’s new, more limited filtering policy (based on a list of child abuse sites supplied by international policing agency Interpol) was actually Coalition policy and nothing new.

    Responding to a question as to whether the Coalition would support Conroy’s new, more limited filter policy, Turnbull stated: “The blacklist proposal? That’s always been our policy and indeed there’s nothing new in it. Indeed this has been going on for years. The police have been providing details of sites that should be blocked … Look there is nothing new. What Senator Conroy has announced today is not a new initiative. It is completely consistent with existing practice and existing legislation.” Turnbull also repeated this claim in an interview with The Australian newspaper.

    However, in this case Turnbull is also incorrect. The concept of using DNS records to block a list of ‘worst of the worst’ child abuse sites is not a current Coalition policy; it was first proposed by Conroy in July 2010 as a rough concept, as an intermediate step while the wider filter policy was examined in detail as part of a review of classification guidelines. It was then independently expanded into the format which became Labor policy last week by the Internet Industry Association in early 2011, and implemented by Telstra and Optus in mid-2011. Senior Coalition figures have commented very little on that limited filter policy since that date.

    In addition, Turnbull is also incorrect in his statement that the Government’s new filter approach is consistent with existent practice and existing legislation. In fact, as organisations such as the Institute of Public Affairs have pointed out, the legislative framework for the new Interpol filter (Section 313 of the Telecommunications Act) has not been used in that manner previously; and may not be consistent with the aims of the legislation. Apart from Telstra and Optus, a number of Australia’s major ISPs — including iiNet, Internode, Exetel and TPG, have expressed concerns about the Interpol filter scheme for this and other reasons.

    Turnbull isn’t the only figure to have misspoken on the Internet filter this year. In February, for example, Conroy himself appeared to consciously tell a factual inaccuracy with respect to the implementation status of the mandatory filter at that time, stating that Telstra and Optus had implemented the mandatory filtering system, when they had only implemented a drastically reduced voluntary version. In addition, Conroy has not yet responded to a list of questions sent to his office regarding basic aspects of the new limited filtering scheme.

    The news comes as senior Coalition figures continue to make misstatements in the communications portfolio in general.

    For example, several weeks ago Shadow Education Minister Christopher Pyne claimed that no customers had been connected to Labor’s National Broadband Network at speeds of 100Mbps, despite evidence being provided to the contrary. In another example, several weeks ago Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey repeated several times an inaccurate claim that the NBN’s funding could be treated as an expense in the Federal Budget, despite the fact that accounting standards require it to be treated as a capital investment. As Pyne did, Hockey’s office similarly declined to retract the statement, claiming despite evidence provided to the contrary that it was the Shadow Treasurer’s view that his statement was correct.

    Hockey’s comments come as the latest in a long line of inaccurate and misleading statements the Shadow Treasurer has made about the NBN project. Earlier last month, for example, Hockey claimed the National Broadband Network could cost as much as $100 billion to build, despite the company’s own estimates showing that it will require around $37 billion of capital injection from the Government and eventually make a return, paying back the investment with some profit on top. In June, in another example, Hockey inaccurately claimed that 4G mobile broadband had the potential to be “far superior” to the fibre technology of the NBN.

    Similarly, several months ago, speaking on Channel Ten’s Meet the Press program, Nationals Leader Warren Truss made a number of major factually inaccurate statements about the project, as detailed in this article by Delimiter at the time. In addition, Truss had previously made a number of inaccurate statements about the NBN over the past several months.

    In mid-May, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott misrepresented the cost of connecting to the NBN, in comments which the Government claimed represented a deliberate attempt to mislead the Australian public on the issue. Turnbull similarly made a number of factually incorrect statements on the NBN throughout March, and in January Abbott got quite a few facts about the NBN wrong in a radio interview.

    Image credit: Office of Malcolm Turnbull

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    1. Tinman_au
      Posted 13/11/2012 at 12:58 pm | Permalink |

      Hey Renai,

      If you get the chance, can you ask Malcolm if he plans on winding back the Ministerial powers of the Telecolms minister if the Libs win?

      If he doesn’t, then pretty well everything he’s said about Conroy is hot air…

      • Michael
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 1:27 pm | Permalink |

        Does it change anything about what Conroy has done or said?

        Has Turnbull shown any inclinations to act in an authoritarian manner anywhere near as strongly as Conroy?

        • TechinBris
          Posted 15/11/2012 at 9:50 am | Permalink |

          But Michael, you have to take account that MT is far more intelligent than Conjob and is probably doing only what he has to do, in order to politically survive and also in order to rescue his Party from self-destruction when TA disappears up his own nether regions in a full realization of his reason for existence, to be PM, is a fantasy to be unrealized.
          Conjob’s statement of red underpants was a Freudian slip on his fantasies that he is a Superman of Telecoms, wearing red undies on the outside of his clothing. No body takes what he says that seriously, do they? When it is policy, in writing and read in the Parliament of Australia, then we really should take note and record the result and take action at the next election in our voting, to change what was wronged. It won’t take long for Polly’s to learn the new way of Politics. It’s called political survival, Democracy style. Someone might make a video on that and some groovy music to go with it. Kewl.

          • Michael
            Posted 15/11/2012 at 10:54 am | Permalink |

            I just worry that the main difference is that Conroy is in control currently. Despite all the focus on the opposition who can only propose alternatives, the government sets (dictates) policy. Although the strong focus on Tony Abbott and the LNP may be an unconscious acknowledgement of their chances of obtaining power at the next election.

            • TechinBris
              Posted 15/11/2012 at 12:03 pm | Permalink |

              I don’t think anyone actually dictates policies in a minority Government. Everything is up for negotiation. Which is actually fantastic, for a Democracy like ours. It means transparency of the Government which we haven’t had for some times. A welcome relief.

              But before anyone starts to rant and rave that the Country cannot be governed as such, of course it can and much better. Look at right now as we get to hear about all the changes that are going to happen and nothing is snuck in or out of the back door of “Private” dealings. The hinges on that door are going rusty in this Parliament as everyone is watching it like a hawk.

              The Independents and the minor Parties only have power, really, when the Coalition allows them to have the power it abdicates to them. They just do not have the numbers in the Parliament to enforce anything if Labor and the Coalition negotiate. But if anyone becomes obstinate, the Independents and minor Parties, such as the Greens, can step up to the fore and negotiate change or kill the bill in the vacuum left by the bigguns. Hmmm, that has a ring to it. “Kill Bill”. :{P

              So all the hype and hoolah, rant and rave about how Democracy is dead, that someone has stolen the “Gubbernment” [sic] and other inane cries of horror on a stick, are really just that. Hype and FUD. The Parliament of Australia is working fantastically, but just not as some would really like (and we do know why! Oh the poor Diddums.).

              The strong focus on TA is because TA is a Media Whore. Much like a previous QLD Labor Premier who was chalk when no media was around and cheesy as, when they were. Trouble with that, in these days of Info at your fingertips at your demand, is your limelight is very exposing to your ignorance. Being just a Poster Boy (or Gal) just doesn’t cut it anymore. 3 word slogans p!sses everyone off, who is not simple minded. It is a whole new world and Main Stream Media is even discovering it isn’t the torch it once was, it is in the limelight itself by it’s own past dubious actions. Bless the Internet for enriching all our lives and being a beacon of light. Now where to shine it next! Ideas?

    2. Posted 13/11/2012 at 1:24 pm | Permalink |

      Good on you for holding people to their statements Renai, but honestly, I’m just super happy that it’s dead and that freedom of speech and commonsense have prevailed. Let’s be glass half full on this one…

      • Gaz
        Posted 13/11/2012 at 6:01 pm | Permalink |

        Hi Marc,

        Don’t be fooled, the only reason labor abandoned the policy was that they had found a more insidious way of implimenting it.

        http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/technology/united-nations-wants-control-of-web-kill-switch/story-fn7bsi21-1226515006898

        CRAP Conjob & labor don’t support it, the arsehole control freaks that they are HATE free speach & the fact that they can’t control what people publish on the net.

        Make no mistake Conjob & labor will get their way 1 way or another.

        Cheers

        • NBNAlex
          Posted 13/11/2012 at 10:12 pm | Permalink |

          Speach?

        • Bpat
          Posted 14/11/2012 at 1:47 pm | Permalink |

          Please note: It was the LNP in 2005 tightened Australian sedition laws (I believe they held power in both upper and lower house at the time), not Labor.

          • TechinBris
            Posted 14/11/2012 at 3:36 pm | Permalink |

            And Democracy died a little more that day.

        • TechinBris
          Posted 15/11/2012 at 9:31 am | Permalink |

          Well there you go Gaz. There is your problem. Daily Telegraph. Reading stuff like that will confuse the most intelligent of our Species. Give it up. It rots the brain and isn’t addictive at all, so no Cold Turkey is required. You can use the money you will save to actually buy some fantastic books to read instead. Or a nice Pad on which you can learn stuff about what is currently happening in Technology on Delimiter.
          See, isn’t life just dandy!
          Cheers

    3. GongGav
      Posted 13/11/2012 at 1:33 pm | Permalink |

      I stopped reading at “Turnbull inaccurate…” and assumed it was yet another NBN error on his behalf. Then I read more, and realised it was another comm’s responsibility he was wrong in.

      Not looking good for the Member for Wentworth when he’s wrong across multiple subjects. And after TA said he was doing such a great job…

      Could it be he’s making mistakes to get AJ off his case?

    4. Indifferent
      Posted 13/11/2012 at 3:48 pm | Permalink |

      Do you even read your own writing? Turnbull a liar, Hockey a liar, Conroy a saint, NBN is mana from heaven and critics of it are politically motivated climate deniers. Look in the mirror comrade.

      • Karl
        Posted 13/11/2012 at 4:06 pm | Permalink |

        “Turnbull a liar”
        Fact.

        “Hockey a liar”
        Fact.

        “Conroy a saint”
        He’s never come close to saying that.

        “NBN is mana from heaven”
        He has criticized aspect of it, he just doesn’t criticize the good aspects of it and his journalistic integrity forces him to defend those aspects when others do criticize them without sound reason.

        “critics of it are politically motivated climate deniers”
        That wasn’t him, it was Paul Budde. And that isn’t even what he said, he said they were like climate change deniers.

        Off topic: Strangely, this is the second time recently that I’ve come across somebody who doesn’t know what a simile is. Have they stopped teaching them in school or something?

        • socrates
          Posted 13/11/2012 at 4:15 pm | Permalink |

          +1 Karl – why, he can’t even spell manna.

          Talk about people who live in glass houses…

          • GongGav
            Posted 13/11/2012 at 4:16 pm | Permalink |

            …they should use shower curtains?

      • Posted 13/11/2012 at 4:19 pm | Permalink |

        hey Indifferent,

        FYI I am more than happy and willing to criticise Labor and the Greens when it’s warranted. Evidence:

        http://delimiter.com.au/2012/01/25/ludlam-suspects-govt-of-bugging-his-iphone/

        “I am extremely surprised to find the normally level-headed Senator Scott Ludlam engaging here in what I feel I have no choice to describe as conspiracy theories.”

        http://delimiter.com.au/2012/02/28/conroy-misleads-public-on-internet-filter/

        “Communications Minister Stephen Conroy today appeared to consciously tell a factual inaccuracy with respect to the current implementation status of Labor’s controversial Internet filtering project, stating that Telstra and Optus had implemented the mandatory filtering system, when they have only implemented a drastically reduced voluntary version.”

        But at the moment it mainly appears to be the Coalition in this situation.

        Cheers,

        Renai

        • looktall
          Posted 13/11/2012 at 5:01 pm | Permalink |

          But at the moment it mainly appears to be the Coalition in this situation.

          that would be because unlike the NLP party members, the labor and greens party members (mostly) know when to keep their ignorance to themselves.

          • TechinBris
            Posted 14/11/2012 at 11:33 pm | Permalink |

            NLP?
            Is that the Neo-con Lieberal Party? We have something that is not acting nicely to people in QLD called the LNP. They are far more nasty than the ALP they replaced, by their actions so far. But that will always be seen as a point of view, by people in this Nation of rich spoilt Prats.
            Ouch! The truth hurts doesn’t it. But it helps if you acknowledge it. It is a maturing sort of thing when one can recognise what we are and take responsibility for it and try to change.

      • Posted 13/11/2012 at 9:55 pm | Permalink |

        Tell us where they’ve been right then? :)

      • TechinBris
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 3:38 pm | Permalink |

        Why is it when I look at your reflection Indifferent, I see a Totalitarian. Not pretty.

    5. Jeffrey ONeill
      Posted 13/11/2012 at 6:16 pm | Permalink |

      Maybe the Earl of Wentworth needs to:

      * Engage brain before engaging mouth or

      * Stop removing any doubt of his comms ignorance by remaining silent rather than constantly opening his mouth or

      * Remove his foot from his mouth or

      * Live up to his speech and start to tell the truth about what the LNP will do with Telecomms in Australia eg how long is a pause, will the NBN construction be halted while the CBA is completed, how many nodes will be installed, will the nodes have battery backup and aircon, what will the running costs of a FTTN network be compared to a FTTP, how will he get cable internet into MDUs, what will be the minimum speeds of a FTTN.

      I’m down right sick of the hypocrisy of the LNP that they will bag Labor over their currently policies, yet they wont detail a single plan so the mug punters like us can decide if they actually have a better idea of how to move the country forward!

    6. Tony
      Posted 13/11/2012 at 8:02 pm | Permalink |

      And the next time someone uses the latest “wireless” research to say how fast it can go and how outdated fibre is, then try pointing them to this:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20183914

      Just goes to show the sort of potential fibre has, but no doubt people like Malcolm, Tony and Alan Jones will just dismiss it as it doesn’t fit their “facts”.

      Not that I’m any fan of Conroy, the filter was a really stupid idea from the start and in some ways, still not dead. Don’t even get me started on the whole data retention scheme (OZLog), frankly, starting to get sick of the lot of them.

    7. The lone gunmen
      Posted 14/11/2012 at 7:39 am | Permalink |

      Another tantrum against the Coalition by Delimiter. It is so boring. You are like a naughty 2 year old who demands this and that and stomping his feet when he does not get it. Time for you IT types to grow up and be adults.

      Try to focus on the big issues, for example, why was there no cost benefit analysis for something that was supposed to be 4 billion when first announced by Rudd. Then jumped to over 50 billion and when people objected it was revised down. Who knows what the real figure is, but based on current performance well in excess of 50 billion of taxpayers money.

      • GongGav
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 9:19 am | Permalink |

        Bwahahaha!!! Again, thanks for the laugh gunmen.

        CBA – no point or need for one, as per global experts. How many times are you going to ignore that? There is no point because its a wholesale monopoly, meaning everyone uses it. There is no need, because its intent is to pay for itself, and make a small profit. And nobody key to the debate has argued against that.

        Combination of that makes a CBA pointless. If one was undertaken, the doomsayers like yourself would just argue against the findings anyway, or scream for 2 years that it was a waste of money.

        Cost – Initial cost was $4.7b for a FttN model. Which was investigated, and found to be a complete waste of time and money, as it would need to be replaced within a short space of time. The recommendation was for the greater reaching FttH model, which was estimated to cost $43b, not $50b as you claim.

        That number was revised down when they actually devised a plan, then slightly adjusted up after some significant effort was put into the build. All in all, its pretty close to expectations. Far closer than most public projects, and testament to the efforts put into the project to date to keep it on track.

        Really, you’re repeated ignorance on this issue is disappointing. Be a good little boy and go back to listening to Alan Jones for a while.

        • Hubert Cumberdale
          Posted 14/11/2012 at 12:31 pm | Permalink |

          “Be a good little boy and go back to listening to Alan Jones for a while.”

          And Andrew Bolt. He posts on Bolts blog:

          http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_dont_let_underpants_conroy_near_your_paper/

          As you can see he’s obsessed with the “communist” booger man… I could post a few more links but they are off topic.

          • GongGav
            Posted 14/11/2012 at 2:06 pm | Permalink |

            Wow, nice little love-in over there, isnt it? Still, its what you should expect. Not like commentators on a site are going to be hostile towards the hoss opinions, is it? Happily, they seem to be all cornered in the same room, mostly out of harms way.

            I particularly liked “Without Oakeshott and Windsor mediocrities like Conroy would an unheard-of Opposition backbencher”, which for some strange reason doesnt acknowledge that for exactly that reason, the Liberals ARE unheard of Opposition backbenchers…

            Also like that while quick to attack, there is a significant lack of comments listing alternatives.

            • Abel Adamski
              Posted 15/11/2012 at 7:14 pm | Permalink |

              Gong.
              Just for fun I have tried to post some comments based on fact and evidence with links. Strange, must be gremlins in the internet coz they never appeared, must have been gobbled up, that paragon of virtue and integrity would never stoop so low as to only permit supportive comments, would he. ?

        • Tinman_au
          Posted 14/11/2012 at 12:48 pm | Permalink |

          I’ve never seen a CBA that manages to factor in social benefits effectively anyway, Gong.

          If people just look at the raw dollars a thing costs, and the benefit business gets from those dollars spent, we’d have a lot fewer roads I suspect. And vaccination programs. And I doubt we’d have universal education, or unemployment support.

          If folks want that kind of society, they should move to the US…oh, wait, they are trying to change that now too…

      • SMEmatt
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 10:08 am | Permalink |

        Tax payer money != tax payer risk, and right now it is the LNP who are the biggest source of risk for this project.

      • Tinman_au
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 12:38 pm | Permalink |

        Nice drive by astro Lone!!

        Shame none of your “facts” are factual…

      • TechinBris
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 1:55 pm | Permalink |

        When are the Coalition Supporters going to stop their tantrums about the fact they did not get the Government they want.
        Sheesh! It’s like listening to a broken record of a room of 2 year olds, who all want something, they want to be first and the way they want it to be.
        A tip for you, firstly you choose a Leader of your political party, who can actually practice the art of negotiation and not a like minded person, to yourselves, that only demand outcomes they way you want it like two year olds. After all, that is the Politician’s role, as a negotiator and not a petulant child.
        In a nutshell, the Coalition did not get Government because it couldn’t negotiate properly. Labor did.
        Now grow up and learn to live in the real world like the Adults you should be. Please take note Lone Gunman and if you cannot, move to another universe. I do believe you would welcome the Universe of the Atomic Banana. Warning, life there is very unpredictable and what is said is nothing like reality.

        • Michael
          Posted 14/11/2012 at 9:07 pm | Permalink |

          When will the current government stop acting like an opposition and start focusing on what it has achieved instead of what Tony Abott proposes.

          • TechinBris
            Posted 14/11/2012 at 9:36 pm | Permalink |

            A most excellent point. Why do they not?

          • TechinBris
            Posted 14/11/2012 at 10:21 pm | Permalink |

            But then, are they actually doing the same thing, or are they doing similar things, but by different methodology with slightly different outcomes? Hmmm. If so, isn’t this all just hot air?

            We’d have to look into what was being proposed by both Parties and compare them with objective outcomes from past actions and policies they have actually espoused and enacted in legislation from the past. After all, no one really believes what a Politician says if they are intelligent!

            So we have their past actions and outcomes of those stated and recorded policies as the basis of what will be the core of their objectives and actual outcomes we can be expect to actually occur when they gain the power of Government. Anything else is folly and foolishness considering past actions of Politicians. They have set the example. Not us. But we do have to learn from the experience or suffer the Fool’s outcome, of living the experience again.

            But to do that, we need the policies proposed and the history of policy outcomes from the past, to be able to discuss and ratify by logic what is fact and what is bullshit.

            Alas, we have the past, now why won’t they give us the policies so we can follow up, dissect and analyse what is proposed and how it resonates with what has been delivered by them in the past.

            Oh! Silly me. That is right. They don’t want us to do just that. Why? Both Labor and The Coalition wouldn’t last a second if we did that. They have lost the ability to win on those very points due to their woeful outcomes against their publically stated policy objectives. To say it simply, they will do as they want and not worry that much really about what they say, as long as they get power delivered to them by lying during the campaign and reneging afterward by any old excuse that is convenient. I call it the Dark Side of Politics.

            Also, Australia has not really allowed others to become involved and kept Politics as a two black horse race. Now why is that? Only a Fool doesn’t ask questions. They just think they have all the answers, or they are just……….Simple.

            In the end, one day, we will also have to face the eventual reality, that one of them will turn on the people, and in self-righteous indignation, wrest power without the Citizens of that Democracy’s approval for what THEY see as a just and righteous cause for their desired policy outcomes. Everyone always thinks they are in the right, when they may actually be very, very wrong. It always occurs, unfortunately.

            Live it, breathe it. You own it. Democracy. But do you really deserve it? It was never meant to be easy.

    8. Singular=gunmAn
      Posted 14/11/2012 at 8:19 am | Permalink |

      Another comment against the Delimiter by ‘The lone gunmen’. It is so boring. You are like a naughty 2 year old who demands reporting on this and that, and stomping his feet when he does not get it. Time for you trollish types to grow up and be adults.

    9. TechinBris
      Posted 14/11/2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink |

      For a bunch of people who get it wrong most of the time, they are appropriately placed by a Nation that consistently votes for these sort of people to run the Country for them, most of the time.
      We get what we deserve, is what I can say about this article.
      Hold your head and weep Australia. Vote wisely in the next election for you will only get what your intelligence allows for.

    10. Gaz
      Posted 14/11/2012 at 2:49 pm | Permalink |

      Pitty the only support coming for the NBN is from a bunch of theiving, low life, scumbags & the reason they like the ALP is because just like them they are theiving, low life, scumbags.

      Yes thats right the only ones who think that the NBN has anything to offer are the thieving bastards who don’t want to pay for their entertainment.

      The reality is that FTTN would have been more than sufficient to meet the needs of australians for the next 25Yrs +, why? well thats easy 99.9% of the population have absolutly nothing to gain.

      Cheers

      • GongGav
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 3:05 pm | Permalink |

        Thanks for dropping by Gaz, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

        The reality is that the common household has multiple people using multiple devices that chew through more and more bandwidth every month.

        If you choose to not see that, good luck to you. But its fact that our needs have increased at an exponential rate over the past 10 years, with not indication that need is going to slow down any time soon. And FTTN cannot deliver the projected needs for even 5 years from now, let alone 25 years from now.

        It’s mentalitys like yours that demanded that dialup was all we needed a mere 10 years ago, and that ADSL was the domain of “a bunch of theiving, low life, scumbags”.

        As I said, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

      • TechinBris
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 3:31 pm | Permalink |

        Gee Gazz, learn some maths, then learn a little about electronics and then you may be in a position to understand what your talking about.
        Also, please read my previous comment about why the Coalition did not get Government. It may actually be a real eye opener and a shocking revelation for you.
        But any way, Life can be really good regardless, if you just let it be. :{P
        Smile.
        For the Atomic Banana Universe, slip behind that molecule over there and turn to the right. You cannot miss it.

    11. Gaz
      Posted 14/11/2012 at 4:35 pm | Permalink |

      I guess in a houshold full of theiving, low life, scumbags, barely out of nappies, skript kiddies that would be the case but that is not so for 99.9% of households & it certainly does not justify a waste of $50Bn+ on the NBN.

      I’ve been working with the net & is precursors for more than 30 yrs & am a leader in the field of SAAS, while I agree the NAB’s ANZ’s BHP type business’s of the world need a bit of bandwidth (which they have had for yrs & yrs anyway) the reality for 99.9% of business’s in Australia is that ADSL2+ speeds will be more than enough to meet their needs for at least the next 20 odd yrs.

      Bottom line at best 99.9% of business’s need a few phone lines sucking 64Kb each, email, a bit of web surfing (mostly kids looking at FB etc) & if they are running some sort of SAAS app 128Kb at most is all thats needed for data transfer. As I said ADSL2+ is all thats needed & even then its arguable that its overkill, truth is all my clients are more than happy with the 512/512 service they have been running for the last 12 yrs oh & from the discussions I’ve had with them NONE are prepared to move away from that service if its going to cost them more money which the NBN WILL.

      I don’t dispute that there are a large number of thieving crooks in the IT industry selling CRAP that that is simply overkill to stroke their egos but again that is no justification to waste $50Bn+ on the NBN.

      Its time the pro NBN script kiddies changed their nappiest and had a little nap while the adults among us stay to discuss at a professional level the waste of money the NBN is.

      Cheers

      • NBNAlex
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 6:28 pm | Permalink |

        Is that you Mark?

        Certainly sounds like it.

      • TechinBris
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 7:09 pm | Permalink |

        Oh dear Gaz. Nobody much loves you? I can see why.
        Get a life. Care for someone instead of worrying incessantly about money making and who is righteous or not, in being able to be allowed to have a little more bandwidth.
        Life can be most excellent, but you have to let it be.
        Cheers!

      • NBNAccuracy
        Posted 14/11/2012 at 10:38 pm | Permalink |

        64Kb lines? What decade are you living in? You do know Telstra stopped selling ISDN in 2008 right?

        • TechinBris
          Posted 14/11/2012 at 11:15 pm | Permalink |

          Nope, they still are selling Basic rate ISDN (ETSI) services. PRA is now delivered by SDSL with a TA on the end to give you Primary Rate interfaces. Really, it is a much more efficient way to utilise the copper as 2 wires for 8 Meg compared to 4 wires for 2 Meg. But it really is getting to the end of being able to squeeze much more out of it in the 21st Century. A new mediem would be a smart bet as copper is so last Century for telecommunications. Maybe that is why most Telecom Companies ceased using for their own communications interconnections around the 1980′s.
          Glass anyone?

        • Gaz
          Posted 15/11/2012 at 12:58 am | Permalink |

          “64Kb lines?”

          Oh god no wonder no one can have a professional level discussion with you guys, it is clear from the absurdity of your comments that you guys have NFI about the technology or its everyday use.

          Cheers

          • TechinBris
            Posted 15/11/2012 at 8:01 am | Permalink |

            Oh dear Gaz, a BRI has 2 x 64K B-Channels and a 16K D-Channel that make up a BRI. A PRI has 32 x 64K Channels but 0 is used for sync and Channel 16 is utilised as the D-Channel. There you go. A lesson in learning more than just optic services supplied to big customer like your so big with. *snicker*
            Obviously, anything outside of your direct immediate experience just has never existed, so you can ignore every thing said here as you never directly have metany of us. Gee, your Universe must be very small and lonely. Go slip out and hide in a new place. It is called the Universe of the Atomic Banana. You’ll love it.

            • Gaz
              Posted 15/11/2012 at 10:26 am | Permalink |

              Oh dear, looks like TechinBris has shown us all he can copy & past from wikipedia. but as I suspected from the absurd comments TechinBris actually has NFI about the technology.

              Ah well I suppose when your a thieving, low life, scumbags, barely out of nappies, script kiddie whos only interest is protecting your ability to steel other peoples property at a faster rate you do tend to plagiarise wikipedia to make yourself sound smarter than you actually are.

              Cheers

              • NBNAlex
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 10:52 am | Permalink |

                Please let him stay Renai…

                At least until 31 Dec, when our other equally erratic and non-sensical ‘friend’ can return ;)

                • GongGav
                  Posted 15/11/2012 at 11:06 am | Permalink |

                  I second that. He’s as entertaining as lone gunmen is. Please can we keep them Renai?

                  Please please please please please! We promise to look after them and everything!

              • TechinBris
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 12:10 pm | Permalink |

                I promise I will feed him regularly. He is entertaining. Please can we keep him? He’s fun.

              • TechinBris
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 12:36 pm | Permalink |

                Gaz, you have caught me out! I absolutely lurve (with bells on) Wikipedia. All those facts are like an opium addiction to me! Shoot me UP!
                I gave up reading idiocy and now days I am clean and just say “NO!” to the “Daily Telegraph” and all other Blüt Blatts.
                The old ETSI standards in ISDN still holds, even years after I ceased supporting it nationally. Many PBX still utilize it, though IP is taking over.
                Now here, fetch the paper! But not Rupert’s trash please. We’re better than that.
                Enjoy! :{D

          • GongGav
            Posted 15/11/2012 at 10:31 am | Permalink |

            Good luck with that Gaz. If you expect such needs are enough you’ll be pleased to know that there will be a plan for you. Meanwhile, the rest of us will move on and enjoy everything an improved network can and will deliver.

            I ask you this though. Why wasnt dialup sufficient for our needs, as was claimed in the late 90′s by those with similar attitudes to yours?

            As for your “costing $50b” comment, well there’s just no point addressing that. It doesnt matter how many times facts are put in front of you, you’ll just stick to your narrow view of the world and assume you’re opinion is the only right opinion.

            FYI, I’ve also been working with the net and its precursors for nearly 30 years, and have siblings that helped develop ADSL2 and VOIP. Dont assume people are script kiddies around here, you will be wrong. Again.

            Now, go back to Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt, and leave the technical details to the mature people in the room. OK? Good. Bye.

            • Gaz
              Posted 15/11/2012 at 12:23 pm | Permalink |

              “Meanwhile, the rest of us will move on and enjoy everything an improved network can and will deliver.”

              Ok name 1 killer app for the SME sector that needs the NBN, will revolutionise the way they do business and more importantly that SME’s will be prepared to pay for.

              Now keeping in mind that MYOB have spent $100M rewriting their accounting app for the cloud only to find that now it has been released their client base has told them in no uncertain terms that they don’t want a bar of it, be it MYOB, Xero, SAASU yes there are 2-3% who will go to the cloud but the other 97%+ don’t want to know about it.

              So your so smart name me an app, or define an outcome.

              “As for your “costing $50b” comment, well there’s just no point addressing that.”

              Oh dear you don’t even know the the idiot Govt’s budget which is on record as around $43Bn, by the time you factor in the govt’s incompetence & mismanagement of the project the cost blow outs will push the cost well beyond $50Bn, A totally unacceptable expenditure that must be put under scrutiny via CBA, which you guys don’t want because ultimately it will show that there is not 1 benifit from the $50Bn+ wasted.

              “and have siblings that helped develop ADSL2 and VOIP”

              Congratulations but sadly from your absurd comments its clear you must of been hiding behind the door when they were handing out the inteligence quoter to your family.

              “Good. Bye”

              tisk tisk, can’t present an inteligent argument so takes bat & ball & goes home.

              Cheers

              • James
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 1:16 pm | Permalink |

                > inteligence quoter

                Hahaha, I hope this was intentional.

              • GongGav
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 1:42 pm | Permalink |

                Still no answer to my questions, huh? Standard trolling. Keep it up though, you are entertaining.

                “Ok name 1 killer app for the SME sector that needs the NBN, will revolutionise the way they do business and more importantly that SME’s will be prepared to pay for.” — I cant. And its not my job to. But would you have been able to foresee the depth of coverage available today in 1999?

                This is a point that keeps getting made, and ignored. By your mentality, we should never have moved from dialup. That was sufficient for most SME needs of the day as well, why did things change?

                As for MYOB, well I’m not a fan of cloud computing. If you bothered doing any basic reading of even the topics on the front page you’d know that. MYOB made a mistake, just like plenty of others are as well.

                The comment about the $50b stands. Not much point going into it when you cant even tell the difference between an investment and an expense.

                Nice try with the intelligence comment by the way, pity about your spelling. Keep up the trolling, you are entertaining. I expect you’ll get banned some time soon though, which will be a pity. Renai takes a dim view on personal attacks, and commentators that dont add anything to the discussion.

                Still, there are other blogs about that you can crawl back to.

              • TechinBris
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 2:06 pm | Permalink |

                Don’t go Gaz. It won’t be the same without you!
                We’ll let you cut out “Tony quotes” from your old Daily Telegraphs. Honest we will.
                Guys, lay off! What will we do for funnies if he escapes! He’s more fun than Fox News!

                • GongGav
                  Posted 15/11/2012 at 2:12 pm | Permalink |

                  Well, I put my pitch in to keep him. Even said please. Five times!!!!!

                  Every now and then its nice to see such an agressive troll. They aren’t as agitated these days.

                  Not sure Renai will see it that way though.

                  • TechinBris
                    Posted 15/11/2012 at 2:14 pm | Permalink |

                    Yeah, it is hard to get a good animated Troll now days. Treasure it when you have one. Feed it and it will give hours and hours of entertainment. :{D

                    • GongGav
                      Posted 15/11/2012 at 3:30 pm | Permalink |

                      I think Gaz has given up for the day. Either that, or its nap time.

                      • TechinBris
                        Posted 15/11/2012 at 3:44 pm | Permalink |

                        That, or he bruised his pinky typing so hard on the keyboard and is sulking about it.
                        SShhhhhh, that is enough bait. Let’s see if he takes it, with another “fact” finding mission from the Daily Telegraph. ROFL

              • NBNAccuracy
                Posted 15/11/2012 at 10:24 pm | Permalink |

                The one I work on regularly for a start. No only does being limited to a 10Mb connection make code and data sharing very slow between our developers it makes submission of 3D engineering models for verification very slow. I’d say that the data exchange was pretty slow. I have worked in companies of 100 developers that could easily saturate an 8Gb link. Not everyone works on apps that have small data requirements.

          • NBNAccuracy
            Posted 15/11/2012 at 10:19 pm | Permalink |

            Well I certainly haven’t seen anyone using a 64K line since… 1989. Oh wait, I knew someone who was too far from the exchange for ADSL who got dual line ISDN 128K about 6-7 years ago.

            I guess Telstra is lying about discontinuing ISDN and now offering IDSN 2 with much greater than 64Kb throughput.

            http://www.telstra.com.au/customer-terms/download/document/t-reward-options.pdf
            http://www.telstra.com.au/business-enterprise/download/document/business-my-offer-summary-telephony-isdn-businessline-complete-plan.pdf

            • TechinBris
              Posted 16/11/2012 at 9:05 am | Permalink |

              Well considering BRI is as easy to give as a Analogue line I can see why they still give it. I would say you’d specifically have to ask for it. But PRI would be a waste. Where I work, we have a few PBX with a TA on SDSL with PRI outputs into the PBX. Lord knows why we aren’t utilizing IP fully. I have no say on that. I am a scummy little Tech-head that just keeps everything going. :{D
              But at home, totally IP, Naked ADSL with UPS and 3G Backup on the Router and a free VoIP service that just works flawlessly on either links. But I know it’d work even better on fiber. I await it lustfully. :{P~~

              • NBNAccuracy
                Posted 16/11/2012 at 9:30 am | Permalink |

                Wow, I thought my current work space was a little old fashion. A lot of 60 plus senior staff. They still have a tea lady who brings cups of tea, coffee and jugs of water around. Even they have gone totally IP for the phone system and they haven’t even got all the internal network to gigabit yet. It will be nice when NBN becomes available as the 10Mb connection costs 10-20K a month.

          • NBNAccuracy
            Posted 15/11/2012 at 11:40 pm | Permalink |

            Ahh, re read your “no one needs more than 64k” speach and realised you were talking 64K for voice. My appologies. I guess most business could do accounting style apps on 512Kb, they wouldn’t want to try and remote desktop or try to do anything else at the same time if they teleconferenced, or save phone bills between branches by using IP phones over the link.




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