Fledgling fibre monopoly NBN Co has responded to criticism that it’s not explaining its mission well to Tasmanian residents, pointing out that it had appointed a community relations manager in the state, and reassuring those in areas to be served by wireless that existing ADSL broadband based on Telstra’s existing copper network wouldn’t be shut down for 10 years.
Consumer action group Digital Tasmania late last week expressed its frustration with what it said was a lack of information and promotion about the NBN in the state — stating some communities had no knowledge about when they would get the next-generation network or how to use it, and were concerned that their existing ADSL connections would be replaced with wireless in non-fibre areas.
However, in a statement responding to the issue, a NBN Co spokesperson this morning pointed out the company had already released indicative maps and lists on its website outlining the towns where fibre and wireless infrastructure would be rolled out, with those not mentioned likely to be candidates for satellite.
“As we get into the more detailed site-by-site plans, further information will be available to help address issues in relation to the borders between technology deployments,” the spokesperson said.
Digital Tasmania had said that some residents were concerned they might lose their current ADSL services if they lived in areas to be covered by wireless broadband. There are certain technical advantages to the fixed ADSL service over wireless services — with one usually being better latency (or response time to the broader internet).
However, the NBN Co spokesperson pointed out that the government policy under which it was operating (PDF) had stipulated that the copper network should be maintained for a decade in areas not to be covered by the fibre footprint — seven percent of premises.
In addition, they said, the peak download speeds of 12Mbps would be better than what many people will be currently experiencing on ADSL — “particularly if they are in a rural area some kilometres from their exchange”.
For those communities not covered by the initial fibre rollout, the NBN Co spokesperson pointed out the Government had encouraged it to explore mechanisms for a community to fully or partially fund the extension of the fibre network to cover that location, with NBN Co only seeking to recover the incremental costs incurred in the extensions.
Lastly, on the issue of community awareness in general, the NBN Co spokesperson said it had already achieved a take-up rate of over 50 percent in fibre areas in Tasmania.
“Almost two months ago we appointed a Community Relations Manager for Tasmania, and she has been progressively working through a list of community contacts, primarily working through local government,” the company said. “NBN Co has also recently developed some case studies to increase awareness of the network and what people are using it for.”
Image credit: Bob Smith, royalty free
That was quick.
I find it staggering that NBN Co would even consider replacing existing ADSL2+ networks with a wireless option. I am sorry but wireless is NO substitute for a low-latency reliable ADSL connection.
Did you even read the article? Including the part which explicitly states that will NOT happen?
Did you read the story?
“However, the NBN Co spokesperson pointed out that the government policy under which it was operating had stipulated that the copper network should be maintained for a decade in areas not to be covered by the fibre footprint — seven percent of premises.”
10 years is not the same as never.
And who is to say that in 10 years time we will have a wireless solution that can deliver on par if not better performance than ADSL2+? No one. In fact, we’re getting pretty close with the likes of LTE.
And who is to say that in 10 years time we won’t have, thanks to the alternated market dynamics, competitive solutions like uni-directional links available to remote homes and towns? There is already solutions that use TV antenna which look quite promising.
Before anyone raises their hand let me (again) point out to you that LTE does not scale well over many users, meaning that although it is fine for the loosely populated country areas, in large cites and towns fibre is still the preferred option.
I personally think that 10 years is a perfectly reasonable time-frame to hold onto a legacy technology like ADSL2+.
I personally think that 10 years is a perfectly reasonable time-frame to hold onto a legacy technology like ADSL2+..
Absolutely. ADSL2 is going to seem like dial-up in 10 years time. Even if you can’t access fibre you’ll have a far better option than a legacy copper solution. Whether it’s LTE or something even better yet to be rolled out.
LOL. I love it when people jump to conclusions without bothering to read the article!
Well isn’t this what the whole issue is, miscommunication? NBN aren’t really doing their job well if people think their ADSLX connections will be replaced with wireless
Errm.. There’s a pretty big difference between poor communication of the benefits of the NBN (which I agree the Government must start doing a better job at) and someone that has the facts presented to their face in an article, but chooses to ignore them and jump straight to commenting!
The wireless options are already lower latency than ADSL, and available with more symmetric options as well. I’m reliably informed that latencies of 8ms is normal, compared to up to 30ms I sometimes see on ADSL2+ links.
Okay? Where is your analysis and data to back up this “regular 8ms figure”. What is the jitter on this? Where is your analysis of ADSL and ADSL2+ connections? Pings to where? COuld the ADSL2+ connection technically travel further in backhaul to the testing server than the LTE connections?
I’m sorry, but you being “reliably informed” isn’t all that helpful. I want to see some evidence and statistics.
You can bet that Telstra doesn’t plan on retaining ADSL for ten years in areas served by NBN. Once NBN goes through most of the revenue in the area will be siphoned off.
I bet that they will maintain their ADSL services in areas served by the NBN but not by NBN fibre.
But you’re right, I don’t think they will maintain for the full ten years. Especially if they can get a better return and on par performance from their LTE services.
It’ll get down to simple economics. The moment they stop making a profit in a single area with the ADSL network, they’ll shut it down.
The fixed wireless option wouldn’t be such a bad idea if they upped the bandwidth.
Companies like BigAir can deliver fixed wireless solutions with 100/100Mbps bandwidth and a ping of < 10ms to the local carrier.
I'm pretty sure the equipment NBN will be using for the fixed wireless network will be capable of much higher speeds, and hopefully they will increasdwidth over time. Honestly they should be matching the fibre speeds so that nobody feels left out (except for the poor satellite people) because the equipment is capable of doing so.
I have not much doubt that the wireless speeds will be able to be increased over time. As you point out, it’s not necessarily the wireless kit itself that defines the speed.
The backhaul will be the key. Initially they are scoping the backhaul to deliver 12/1Mbps. Over time, as backhaul capacities increase, I’m sure they’ll be able to scale up.
Just as the fibre network will be able to scale up also.
The NBN Co is telling everyone how long the Telstra copper network will last? LOL
Hmm I thought the ADSL the exchange system and the last mile all belonged to Telstra, I must have missed the NBN buyout.
Telstra management and the Board of Directors will determine how long the copper will last, state by state exchange area by exchange area! – oh and BTW they will also determine how long the HFC will last.
Yeah, because NBN Co and Telstra wouldn’t be discussing things like that at all.
Oh wait…
…yes they are…
Did you read the article? The government, not NBNCo, is stipulating that the copper must remain in areas not serviced by fibre, for at least ten more years. Telstra can choose to keep it longer if they want, but the policy is that it must stay for at least ten years.
“As noted below, Telstra will also have a contractual obligation with the USO Co to operate and maintain its existing copper network and other relevant infrastructure in non-fibre areas for a 10-year period starting from the commencement of USO Co in July 2012.”
We don’t expect to see a wireless internet system established any sooner than 10 years.
Other than LTE what technology will be available inside 10 years.
LTE took 15 years to get from proof of concept to the first commercial implementation. The CSIRO system is still at a proof of concept stage.
The business plan for the NBN is silent on technology or a schedule for the establishment of a wireless system.
The present satellite internet service is on the verge of collapse. Some of the users would say it has collapsed. The NBN business plan outlines a temporary fix for this problem. This system is a stop gap for the next 5 years with a designed capacity of 300kps average peak hour download capacity per customer.
Such a low benchmark does not provide any confidence of the wireless internet service provided by the NBN will even approach ADSL1 standards.
LTE speeds are at the base station specifications. These capacities rapidly decline at the rate of the square of the distance to the customer. Throw in terrain and reactive geology and customers less than 5km from a base station could see their bandwidth fall below ADSL1 speeds.
With the information to hand many prospective customers of the NBN wireless will not see a 10 year guarantee as reassuring.
“…the business plan for the NBN is silent on technology or a schedule for the establishment of a wireless system…”
First trial sites will be up and running late this year…
Who’s “we”? NBNCo have already purchased the spectrum they’re going to be using (from Austar) and plan to begin trials this year, with commercial availablilty mid next year (see here and here). They’re certainly not going to be using LTE or any other mobile wireless solution: it’s all fixed wireless (meaning your iPad won’t be able to connect to it). Instead, you’ll have an antenna on the side of your house to pick up the signal.
Fixed wireless is already able to achieve speeds nearing 1Gbps (for a single point-to-point connection of course, NBNCo’s wireless is obviously not point-to-point).
And strangely W McKay, some people even claim that we should have an entire LTE network…?
Yeah but not as a forceful replacement (destroying current infrastructure and replacing it with another infrastructure)
No one was advocating replacing LTE with wired connections on a national scale
“…destroying current infrastructure and replacing it with another infrastructure…”
You mean the infrastructure that’s destroying itself, as it rots in the ground?
“…No one was advocating replacing LTE with wired connections on a national scale…”
There you go, twisting words yet again. Some people have been advocating that since “wireless is the way of the future”, that the NBN be built entirely from wireless solutions – thereby “replacing” the wired infrastructure with wireless, not replacing wireless with wired as your statement suggests.
You’ve got it completely backwards.
There you go, twisting words yet again. Some people have been advocating that since “wireless is the way of the future”, that the NBN be built entirely from wireless solutions – thereby “replacing” the wired infrastructure with wireless, not replacing wireless with wired as your statement suggests.
Do me a favor and learn the basics of reading comprehension, because these are the facts
1. No government wants to do a nation wide government (or majority government) funded wireless scheme
2. No government is proposing ripping out ADSL2/ADSL/HFC and replacing it with wireless
3. The people that are advocating a nationwide wireless scheme are also not advocating replacing it with ADSL2/ADSL/HFC (as in destroying the current wired network)
4. Doing a nationwide wireless scheme is magnitudes cheaper then the NBN, (to put things into perspective, the capital required for the whole upgrade of Telstra’s NextG network was just 1 billion dollars).
You mean the infrastructure that’s destroying itself, as it rots in the ground?
Copper doesn’t rot in the ground, it also doesn’t rust. In fact Copper (if you have done any form of material science, or even basic high school science) is one of the most inert materials on the planet, it only oxidizes, and that only happens if its un-insulated and at the same time exposed to water and ‘salts’. Practically all of the copper laid down by PMG and Telstra is insulated. Furthermore, if it happens, oxidization has a negligible effect on the bandwidth of the copper since it only effects the outer layer of the wire
*government means Coalition or Labor
So as usual, you are spreading FUD and misrepresentation. Couldn’t expect anything better from you however
Did I say the copper was rotting? Nope – as per usual, putting words in people’s mouths. Talk about someone needing to learn about reading comprehension!
The sheathing around the copper is what is rotting. Now tell me Mr Professional Scientist, what happens when two exposed circuits made of copper come into contact with each other? What happens when they get water logged?
I can assure you that the network is heavily compromised in this way in MANY areas, including my own.
Spare us your childish rantings and stop twisting people’s words around to suit yourself. The more and more you do it, the less and less people will pay attention to you.
If they even do anyway.
*beep*
Wrong again, the sheathing that is placed on copper is made out of a special plastic insulation, which, since it is design for insulation, also doesn’t “rot”, and has a very long lifetime
The most common form of issues with copper based communications is not the cable itself (someone as “smart” as yourself claimed the same thing on AusNOG, where he proceeded to get shot as spouting crap) is actually in the solder terminations, an area where Telstra (unfortunately) don’t have a good record of maintaining. Telstra has a bad record (especially in rural areas) in using cheap terminators (among other things) for various financial (and other) reasons. Also badly done terminations (which require the sheathing to be cut) also causes similar problems
I can assure you that the network is heavily compromised in this way in MANY areas, including my own.
Ah, I get it now, you are one of those people (like on whirlpool) who has an issue with their connection and thus assume that the only way to fix their problem (and apparently everyone else’s) is with the NBN.
They also use the fact that they have a bad connection as “anecdotal evidence” that its a major issue which many other people suffer (without any statistical evidence of backing) of why the NBN is required.
I can say for one thing, my 50 year old copper connection (yes, I live in a home thats 70 years old and was one was connected with copper a long time ago) hasn’t had any issues of the sheathing of copper “rotting”, because if it did then the copper connection would circuit and I wouldn’t be able to get optimal ADSL2 speeds considering my distance from the exchange
* You do realise that you only need one of the two wires for an ADSL connection to work, don’t you? So YET AGAIN you’ve assumed what I’m talking about. You fail again. Copper phones lines – (as they stand now) – have more purposes than just ADSL.
* You do realise that the original phone lines installed by the PMG Department were sheathed in paper, then a brittle plastic, and then lead don’t you? Paper rots. The plastic hardens, cracks and then crumbles over time. Then the hard lead sheath acts as a pipe to carry water up and down the line over the exposed wires.
Here’s a picture of the phone line entering my house (notice how thick it is compared the more “modern” wiring loop installed after it reaches the house?):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwyres/5528739030/
* This has zero to do with the fools who hang around on Whingepool – it’s just a simple fact that many areas can’t even get a reliable PSTN circuit, let alone ADSL. Maybe you’re lucky to live in an area where the lines have been replaced.
* If the network is left in its existing state for another 20 years, it will suffer from another 20 years of degradation – and you’ll be the first one to complain to TPG that your link won’t come up.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again.
You do realise that you only need one of the two wires for an ADSL connection to work, don’t you? So YET AGAIN you’ve assumed what I’m talking about. You fail again. Copper phones lines – (as they stand now) – have more purposes than just ADSL.
And, I said otherwise when??? Almost every home in Australia (now) has a twisted pair, the average amount of copper leads in an Australian house is 1.8. In places like America its a more
You do realise that the original phone lines installed by the PMG Department were sheathed in paper, then a brittle plastic, and then lead don’t you? Paper rots. The plastic hardens, cracks and then crumbles over time. Then the hard lead sheath acts as a pipe to carry water up and down the line over the exposed wires.
You do realize you are an exception
This has zero to do with the fools who hang around on Whingepool – it’s just a simple fact that many areas can’t even get a reliable PSTN circuit, let alone ADSL. Maybe you’re lucky to live in an area where the lines have been replaced.
Nope, just alluding to the fact that you belong to the same group of people that because they have an issue with their copper its a mandate for a NBN
If the network is left in its existing state for another 20 years, it will suffer from another 20 years of degradation – and you’ll be the first one to complain to TPG that your link won’t come up.
Yours might, mine won’t. Its became working fine for decades. Don’t make the assumption that everyone has the same issue you do (in fact your issue would be considered an exception)
Where do I say that problems with copper wiring is a mandate for the NBN? Another made up statement from you.
If I were to stoop to your level and twist/contort your words, I would say something like just because a lot of people have “perfect” line conditions is not a reason not to improve telecommunications in this country.
But I won’t.
As for my example being an exception – I think you’ll be surprised how common that style of cabling still is.
I’ve been doing xDSL installs since Telstra first opened their DSL network a decade ago. I’ve provisioned hundreds upon hundreds of them, and I’ve seen every combination of fucked up cable conditions to prevent installations proceeeding.
People would (well, might) have a lot more respect for what you say if you didn’t continually contort people’s words. You’ve done it at least five times in this thread alone already.
So don’t waste your effort replying again with more contorted, fabricated crap.
Where do I say that problems with copper wiring is a mandate for the NBN? Another made up statement from you.
You certainly imply it with statements like these
“You mean the infrastructure that’s destroying itself, as it rots in the ground?”
If you weren’t biased I would have said otherwise, however that isn’t the case. The statement is also misleading, because you are implying the whole infrastructure is rotting (when in rare cases its the terminations/solders and very rare cases the sheathing)
If I were to stoop to your level and twist/contort your words, I would say something like just because a lot of people have “perfect” line conditions is not a reason not to improve telecommunications in this country.
My statement is that its not a mandate for an NBN. In some cases you may not need to replace the copper if it gives a fine service and people don’t need any better service
As for my example being an exception – I think you’ll be surprised how common that style of cabling still is.
This statement means nothing without actual statistics. I know in rare circumstances this cabling happens, however I do not see any indication that its a commonality. What I do see is that this minority of people group up and become very vocal, which is completely expected
I’ve been doing xDSL installs since Telstra first opened their DSL network a decade ago. I’ve provisioned hundreds upon hundreds of them, and I’ve seen every combination of fucked up cable conditions to prevent installations proceeeding.
Whether thats still the case today is another question, and furthermore whether your experience was a statistically significant
People would (well, might) have a lot more respect for what you say if you didn’t continually contort people’s words. You’ve done it at least five times in this thread alone already.
And a lot more people would respect you more if you stopped making misleading statements and contorting your so called “facts” to suit your agenda (ergo bias).
If you don’t want people to contort what you are saying, then start being more objective and stop giving misleading statements or misinterpreting other peoples points that don’t suite your agenda (i.e. creating strawman)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Anyone that has any clue in reasoning and debating can easily pick out the number of massive logical fallacies and misinterpretations that you do to try and convince people that NBN is the best thing since sliced bread (not that it really matters anyway, the number of people that actually care about the NBN and the attention its getting is dropping like a rock, its not a really a relevant issue anymore)
*facepalm*
*facepalm*
If you want these debates to be less frustrating (for you), I highly recommend you stop making idiotically misleading statements such as these
You mean the infrastructure that’s destroying itself, as it rots in the ground?
You can still support the NBN, but you don’t have to look like a zealot in doing so
Furthermore you completely ignored my rebuttal against your points about the people advocating wireless (in that same post), probably because you have nothing to say in return
If you think this is even slightly frustrating for me, you’re kidding yourself.
I know which one of us is presenting facts, and which one of us has a name containing “ego”.
As for “no rebuttal” – the difference between you and me is that I don’t have an over-bearing need to have the final word, but anything that I might rebutt has been rebutted by myself – (and others) – countless times on this site and the others you troll. Your crap no longer dignifies a response if you are too stupid to realise that you crap is so easy to see through.
You Sir, are nothing more than a troll and an astro-turfer. You live in a fantasy world where your way is the only way. You are a waste of electrons.
I’m still waiting some 3 months on, for the narcissistic deteego just to admit he was wrong for saying the Senate is where the government is formed!
Perhaps the stupidest comment ever, along with Syd lala likening himself to Jesus’ persecution when he was abused for his sugary Telstra tripe.
But then Syd’s was just misguided greed grief, not humiliating stupidly, like our friend [sic] teegy…
As for “no rebuttal” – the difference between you and me is that I don’t have an over-bearing need to have the final word,
So why did you just post a reply to get a final word then :)
Hmm, hypocritical much.
Admit it, you don’t like when other people point out when you make stupid statements, and you are trying to claw yourself out of a corner at this point, just like you did with that factually incorrect statement about physics (took only 4 guys to point it out, but we got there!)
but anything that I might rebutt has been rebutted by myself – (and others) – countless times on this site and the others you troll.
Whatever you say. Still haven’t seen any evidence of anyone advocating doing a nationwide wireless scheme AND ripping out current wired infrastructure to protect the wireless investment
Your crap no longer dignifies a response if you are too stupid to realise that you crap is so easy to see through.
And who is trolling now?
You Sir, are nothing more than a troll and an astro-turfer. You live in a fantasy world where your way is the only way.
Whatever makes you sleep at night. I’m not sure about you, but the world were all our fixed copper infrastructure is rotting in front of our eyes is a fantasy world to me. That kind of shit happens in Mexico (they have people regularly ripping out copper there to sell it!!!)
By the way, what is “my” way exactly. I’m just pointing refuting points and blatant misinterpretations made by NBN zealots in their vain hope to convince people that the NBN is the only way. You guys should start a religion, its definitely sounding like one.
At least other people that post on these sites are more level headed then you are. The fact that you constantly talk on the top of your head as if you understand what you are talking about in a vain desperation to convince “luddites” and FUD spreaders already demonstrates this.
You should refrain your comments to the only area that you do have an understanding in, which seems to be VOIP. Else they are either factually incorrect (your lovely physics example), or statements that are intentionally misleading and misrepresentative to support your agenda!
Just like the comment written here http://delimiter.com.au/2011/03/02/picking-apart-the-coalitions-nbn-misinformation/#comment-49418
So your comment about vacuum’ing the atmosphere to make radio as fast as light? Even more wrong than the MP you are mocking in the article. (especially given the drastic ‘real-world’ speed of the light you are talking about compared with the radio waves you are comparing it to).
I HIGHLY recommend if you don’t know what you are talking about, you DON’T talk about it. You have already lost the credibility (if any) that you have made with such idiotic statements.
At least you admit that you’re a “luddite and a FUD-spreader”…bwhahaha…and at least I made the admission that I was inaccurate – you could learn something from that. It’s funny though – when you get some things kinda right, you screw up the details.
It’s quite clear that we disagree on many things. I at least have the courage not to hide behind (many) pseudonyms and stand up for what I believe in.
At least you admit that you’re a “luddite and a FUD-spreader”
Nope, I never said that
Also the people using the terms luddite and FUD-Spreader seriously don’t actually know the meaning behind the words (luddites actually protested at the prospect of losing jobs, not the advancement of technology, and a lot of so called FUD is actually valid criticism, its just inconvenient for NBN)
I at least have the courage not to hide behind (many) pseudonyms
Let me fix that
I at least have the courage, stupidity and ignorance not to hide behind (many) pseudonyms
There we go!
and stand up for what I believe in.
In your case, I don’t think thats something to be proud of (in the same way the pope of the church stands behind his convictions and beliefs)
Honestly…you’re hilarious. If nothing else, you lighten my day with funny writings.
“As for “no rebuttal” – the difference between you and me is that I don’t have an over-bearing need to have the final word,”
Except when you do you mean?
Still smarting over those dirt roads being replaced by bitumen…sigh!
Hi RS,
The sigh is that we are not getting fibre!
Back on topic, It is good to hear that test installations are being planned for later this year. I hope they are being located in areas where mobile telephone black spots occur.
The solution to poor service from wireless is plenty of towers and plenty of spectrum. In the rural areas the next g, yes g services have been the most effective because of the spectrum they used. The higher frequencies of Austar spectrum will require many more towers. These higher frequencies are more affected by rain, fog. dust and intervening hills.
Where the business plan only states the quality of service as best endeavors and no optional plans with QOS guarantees, then yes my assessment of the ;likely number of base stations installed and the impact of weather conditions etc. means the experience of many customers is still likely to be less than those who have an ADSL 1 connection.
However, if QOS gaurantees and significant penalties and compensation is offered, such as installation of fibre to the premises for failure of the NBN to meet end user QOS, then yes I would be positive about the use of wireless as a solution.
I hope they are being located in areas where mobile telephone black spots occur.
To reiterate, the NBN is using fixed wireless, which is a completely different technology to what is used for mobile wireless. So the NBN installing their wireless transmitters is going to have zero effect on mobile wireless (3G/LTE/whatever).
It’s got even less to do with mobile TELEPHONE services.
Hi W McKay
Yes “we” (the mysterious we you speak of again?) are getting fibre…
Well WE, the vast majority (93%) are, aren’t WE? Perhaps if YOU are part of the minority 7% “YOU” aren’t…!
Sorry for being pedantic, but fire with fire!
BTW, my sigh was for deteego (and his usual mindless FUD) not you… which I thought was obvious!
The site suggestion was to select sites with hills, reactive geology, reflections trees etc. That is sites where mobile phone networks have difficulty covering a reasonable local area.
Not some idealised location then cost and design the network on those measurements.
This was Telstra and the rural demo site for CDMA in western Victoria. Spectacular results long distance robust connections from small hand held phones. Then they found the real world and were flat out putting towers up between the old analogue sites in an attempt to emulate the coverage.
They still have not completed the job!
NBN Co will not support voice services over their wireless and satellite products, so any it’s a moot point you are bringing up.
@MichealWyres
But Telstra, Optus and the other carriers do support voice services AND data, so the NBN Co wireless (data only) footprint overlap with the private carriers is going to be a interesting tussle for customers.
I think this discussion highlights that the NBN co really needs to get more info on what wireless means in NBN terms.
Most people seem to have the idea in their heads that it is exactly the same as mobile phone and 3G/nextG dongles as we commonly use today. This is simply not the case.
Fixed wireless usually involves a decent sized antena set up and pointed at a line of sight transmission tower. This kind of wireless has much higher bandwidth available. It also has a fixed number of clients attached to it, its not open to roaming devices like the NextG/3G.LTE etc networks are for our mobile phones. Yes, speeds can be effected by weather etc, but the service is in general streets ahead of the experience most people get with mobile wireless devices.
I think the technology needs to be annointed with a new name which clearly seperates it from today’s mobile wireless networks.
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