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  • Blog, Featured - Written by on Friday, January 28, 2011 16:38 - 117 Comments

    Turnbull confirms: Libs would halt the NBN

    blog Some of you may remember that we pushed Opposition Leader Tony Abbott fairly hard a month back on what his camp would do with the National Broadband Network if it won the election currently slated to be held in about three years’ time.

    NBN Co’s business case, after all, tells us that by 2013 the NBN infrastructure will have been rolled out to some 1.7 million premises, with most of those receiving fibre directly to their door. It seems preposterous that the Coalition would simply halt the project at that point — leaving millions of Australians with fibre, but most of the nation without.

    Well, now we know that’s precisely what would happen. Quoth Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull in an interview with ARN posted today:

    We would stop the construction of the NBN, quickly conduct a rigorous cost-benefit analysis, identify those elements in the NBN infrastructure that should be maintained and integrated perhaps into the new separated network company and identify the areas that are deficient in terms of connectivity and prioritise them and make sure they are addressed.

    ARN also has a separate news story on the issue, we recommend you click through and check it out here, as well as following journalist David Ramli on Twitter.

    Now frankly, we have no hesitation in describing what Turnbull proposes above as political suicide. Does the Coalition simply expect Australians to simply sit by while it shuts down a project which millions are already receiving direct benefit from? The whole concept is ridiculous — and it shows that Abbott and Turnbull have learnt very little from the 2010 election, in which broadband was a key issue.

    In addition, it suggests that Turnbull is deviating from the technically minded position that so many credit him with. By promising to cancel the NBN if the Coalition wins the next election, in the face of public opinion and right in the middle of its rollout, Turnbull is demonstrating a faithfulness to the Liberals’ fiscally responsible dogma that verges on the extreme.

    So far I have resisted buying into Labor’s hype that the NBN is Australia’s next Sydney Harbour Bridge. But in this case the comparison is apt. You wouldn’t cancel the construction of the Harbour Bridge halfway through — and neither would you scrap a nationwide fibre rollout right when it it starting to deliver on its long-held promises.

    Image credit: Office of Malcolm Turnbull

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    1. Pete
      Posted 28/01/2011 at 4:46 pm | Permalink |

      So much for small business certainty in Tasmania…

    2. Posted 28/01/2011 at 4:46 pm | Permalink |

      Worse, halting the NBN mid-way through roll-out would cost billions in breach of contract lawsuits.
      Maybe it’s just me, but I’d rather spend the billions on the actual infrastructure than on paying to *not* build the infrastructure.

      • alain
        Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:04 pm | Permalink |

        @Jake the Yak

        The OPEL deal was signed and contracts had been made and the rollout had been started, Conroy canceled it anyway.

    3. Posted 28/01/2011 at 4:54 pm | Permalink |

      NBN (Nothing Bloody New) is the antiphasis of thinking from the last wave of innovation.I agree they should cancel the NBN and do the study. I’m writing this comment on the Gold Coast Express train using my iPad and am uncertain how the NBN would benefit me when mobile.

      PS If I could get rid of all my fixed landline I would.

      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:04 pm | Permalink |

        It will benefit you when mobile by reducing the congestion on mobile networks for static, i.e. Television, YouTube, Gaming, etc, etc, etc, high bandwidth / low latency applications off the mobile network and allow you to browse on your precious iPad without and complain how the NBN was a big waste of money.

        I am tired of explaining this to wireless fans: wireless is limited spectrum, it has limited towers, and it basicly sucks balls as a delivery method, but because it is mobile, we tolerate it, even myself. If you want your mobile nirvana, you need to do everything in your power to keep anything that isn’t mobile OFF the mobile networks.

        • alain
          Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:16 pm | Permalink |

          You are tired of explaining this to wireless fans are you, well despite your explanation attempts the wireless boom will continue at the expense of the fixed line, Telstra, SingTel and Vodafone will continue to pump millions into wireless infrastructure, I know where the billions Conroy is gifting Telstra and SingTel will be going into – 4G and increasing tower capacities, and even more lock-in-contracts with smartphone manufacturers.

          The products that sit at the end of wireless will continue to boom, the big money is in the Smartphone operating systems provided apps, iOS 4, Android, Windows Mobile 7, Symbion etc

          If you think Iphones, Ipads and their clones, HTC desires, Ebooks etc are big now – you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.

          • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink |

            I am quite aware of this. I am in fact VERY aware of this. In fact I think I have said almost EXACTLY this is another post. Please don’t presume to know that I am not away that people WANT wireless. However there is nothing we can do about contention except increase the cell density and get more spectrum.

          • glass snowy
            Posted 30/01/2011 at 11:03 am | Permalink |

            Wake up to yourself. Spectrum is limited, and is either going to run out, or be very very expensive as smartphone / tablet use explodes. http://broadbandandsocialjustice.org/2010/12/the-smartphone-crash-of-y2k13/

            • alain
              Posted 31/01/2011 at 3:31 pm | Permalink |

              Oh well that ‘opinion’ piece seals it then, better tell Apple and Google (Android) to start selling coffee.

              lol

    4. Rich
      Posted 28/01/2011 at 4:58 pm | Permalink |

      I read part of Turnbull’s comments differently.

      ‘we would…identify the areas that are deficient in terms of connectivity and prioritise them and make sure they are addressed.’

      So, perhaps while the ‘NBN’ would be stopped, there does seem to be wiggle room for further network rollouts, but clearly not on the same scale as the current plan. Over the years different arms of Telstra have been spun out and renamed but ultimately did the same thing, so even if the network is no longer run by NBN Co. It doesn’t mean that they’re scrapping any of the infrastructure which would already have been deployed.

      Also, on your point ‘neither would you scrap a nationwide fibre rollout right when it it starting to deliver on its long-held promises.’

      Actually, we’ve already done this in Australia, so it’s hardly surprising it could happen again.

    5. RS
      Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:01 pm | Permalink |

      FYI – NBN isn’t Nicks Broadband Network or Narcissists Broadband Network, it’s for everybody… Nick!

      BTW, it’s antiphrasis!

      • Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:14 pm | Permalink |

        I would have resource quicker but the Telstra 3G data reception is intermittent and the wifi none existent on this train.

        If you want to dowload 3d porn at hoe the NBN is going to be wonderful. If you want to access the Internet at highspeed at any location, at anytime on any device, how does the proposed NBN assist?

        There is limited Australian innovation being used and even worse the majority of the profit from it’s contstruction would appear to be going off shore through the extensive use of none Australian based multi-nationals.

        Thanks for the selling correction :) – hard to look up words when mobile with intermittent reception

        • Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:16 pm | Permalink |

          Pardon the auto correction on the above response

        • lols
          Posted 28/01/2011 at 10:51 pm | Permalink |

          Nick, Did you really just trot out the ‘broadband is only for porn’ argument?

        • RS
          Posted 28/01/2011 at 11:06 pm | Permalink |

          Keep arguing against that NBN using your “intermittent wireless reception” and “non existent wifi” as evidence Nick… you’re truly on a winner there!

          And throwing in the porn line, was pure genius [sic] too ..

          • Posted 29/01/2011 at 11:54 am | Permalink |

            Well we can tell you are good at debating cant we.

            The silly thing is the NBN is deploying fixed capability to premises. The next generation of the internet, will be an internet of devices and sensors. Think mesh networks etc.

            Obama has committed the US to deploying WiFi in his state of the union address. Why, I wonder?

            My concern, is now with this existing NBN (Nothing Bloody New), we’ll pay exorbitant prices for technology that the multnationals need to dump.

            I’ve seen no evidence of facts or technology in the points that you make. Just intimidation and sarcarsm, hiding behind anonymity RS.

            • Pete
              Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:03 pm | Permalink |

              “Obama has committed the US to deploying WiFi in his state of the union address. Why, I wonder?”
              Because their current mobile infrastructure is a complete crock compared to most advanced Asian and EU countries. Ours ain’t much better.

              • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:12 pm | Permalink |

                Actually our 3G reception is world class. We have therefore learned the hard way that there are huge limitations to what a wireless can do, and are making the logical step of declaring it supplemental. Remember Australia has 3G networks that cover between 99% and 97% of the population.

                Compare that to the American mobile providers and you’ll note their coverage is depressingly small. So they are trying to improve mobile coverage, but there isn’t much we can do, apart from upgrade to 4G.

                Take the Sydney CBD. It is impossible to get half decent reception there because it is congested to hell, the buildings are everywhere interfering with the signal. And no amount of innovation is going to change this.

                It is worth noting that the mobile networks are extremely profitable and will continue to move along and upgrade themselves without any help from the government, bar spectrum licensing, however the fixed line infrastructure is essential for our “mobile nirvana” because it allows us to take traffic off the mobile networks, as well as makes it easier to increase the cell density of the networks, especially in the places like the Sydney CBD.

                • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:22 pm | Permalink |

                  If that 3G network in the Sydney CBD is worldclass then the people who designed and implemented it should be replaced pronto. Its a shocking pointless exercise to even go there to use the internet.

                  No I don’t want to purchase a property, install a silly landline, then an internet connection for the odd occasions that I’m there.

                  You guys in Sydney, should get out from behind your desk and visit the rest of Australia a bit more. You’ll enjoy it – I like sharing photos on instagram (where ever I am) :)

                  • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:33 pm | Permalink |

                    Just out of curiousity, where, apart from Sydney, have you experienced a 3G network?

                    And fine, you live a mobile life, where you do most of your browsing mobile, I don’t have a problem with that, but you sir are a minority. I do most of my browsing in one of two places: home, or uni. And when I work I will probably do most of my browsing again in one of two places: home, or work. I think this is the norm for most people because the data charges on mobile connections are hugely expensive, and always will be.

                    I do get out and about and use my mobile services for twitter, sharing photos, etc, etc, but you know what, there are just some things I will NEVER do on my mobile because it will cost me an arm and a leg.

                    Now, if you want to see just how good our networks are, I suggest you go live in Glasgow for a few months, or how about New York with a 4G smart phone… or how about, to prove my point, anywhere else in the freaking world.

                    The only reason that European countries can get slightly better performance in cities (most of the time) is because they, unlike us and America, don’t build tall skyscrapers all the freaking time. So it’s not like you’re at the bottom of a canyon every-time you’re walking the street. But even then I can pull more banwidth and lower pings via Telstra than I could with my O2 mobile in Glasgow.

                    And then… out in the burbs, or in the bush… just woo. Out there in the UK I’d be given an EDGE connection most of the time.

                    • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:53 pm | Permalink |

                      Adelaide, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Melbourne and rural outback SA, NSW, VIC and Qld when I’ve been silly enough to drive.

                      Those mobile internet charges are outrageous. Ever since I can remember though, I have been paying too much as a % of my personal (and/or business) income for Internet access. The only reason, I’ve put a landline into this apartment on the Gold Coast, is I wanted faster or more volume access to the Internet. Silly me has two places at the moment for business reasons. But I’m just spending way too much for Internet access all up.

                      You make some valid points about where people are currently using the internet. But where did you get the data from?

                      My hypothesis, is that with the rise of smarter devices and different ones (like IP connected cars in the future) that the mix will change. There will always be a connection point somewhere into a larger back haul type network.

                      At the moment, what I’d like is one internet bill, with a cap, regardless of the location or device I’m using. Try asking that of your local friendly Telstra T-Shop sales guy :)

                      As I keep saying the NBN is Nothing Bloody New – same old innovation (primarily from Overseas Multinationals), same old pipelines to the US, same old pricing models, same old hierarchy of multinationals/contractors (oh yes, those sub-contractors are going to make some money and continue to vote Labor).

                      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:30 pm | Permalink |

                        “You make some valid points about where people are currently using the internet. But where did you get the data from?”

                        Observations of usage of family and friends plus analysis of data usage and takeup rates form various sources.

                        For example did you know that network providers in American and the UK have started trying to take active measures to reduce mobile data usage consumption? This has had some interesting side effects on the usage trends.

                        It is very hard for me to put my finger on one article and say “there you go” because there is little to no data on mobile data usage available publicly. It can be quite annoying sometimes.

                        “My hypothesis, is that with the rise of smarter devices and different ones (like IP connected cars in the future) that the mix will change. There will always be a connection point somewhere into a larger back haul type network.”

                        I agree with this hypothesis, however I must also point out the demand for a high speed fixed line connection is not waning at all. The number of ADSL2+ connections and data usage is still increasing. So althrough we’ll see more mobile devices, the fixed line networks aren’t just going to “disappear” and unfortunately it’s the fixed line networks that need desperate investments.

                        “At the moment, what I’d like is one internet bill, with a cap, regardless of the location or device I’m using. Try asking that of your local friendly Telstra T-Shop sales guy :)”

                        Except it doesn’t cost them the same amount to deliver 1GB on a mobile device as it does to deliver 1GB on a fixed line device. In fact, they don’t even pay for GB, they pay per peak bandwidth, unless they own the fibre themselves.

            • RS
              Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:18 pm | Permalink |

              Nick don’t blame me because I highlight YOUR silly comments.

              You bag the NBN because of all your wonderful wireless gadgets and ask why the NBN… then tell us about the woeful intermittent service and “non-existent” wi-fi.. of these gadgets…LOL!

              If I am not much of a debater and sadly leave you for dead, what does that say about you…! Anyway…

              Enjoy your intermittent/non-existent toys and I will enjoy the NBN (National not Nick’s/Narcissist’s.. broadband network).

              • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:27 pm | Permalink |

                Yes you are a silly little person hiding behind Anonymity. You sound like one of those brown nosing Microsoft developer types :)

                • RS
                  Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:34 pm | Permalink |

                  Yes thanks for coming Nick..

                  Now back to the dunces corner , where you obviously belong, and don’t forget the pointy hat…!

                  Feel free for a parting shot, just to embarrass yourself further… I and I’m sure many others, look forward to another guffaw!

                  • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:38 pm | Permalink |

                    Looks like I was correct. Bravo for not defending Microsoft. But alas, not being able to make your own mind up about technology has been drilled into you.

                    Get out from behind that desk, and get some exercise in.

                    • Pete
                      Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:51 pm | Permalink |

                      Give over with the dumb anonymity rants. For all we know, you’re someone pretending to be Mr Hortovanyi.

                      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:58 pm | Permalink |

                        lol .. ur another one been anonymous but at least you make sense

                        My last name makes me fairly unique, thus I decided a while ago, not to hide behind some obscure handle. If you want to know more about me, I’ve got a little page here http://about.me/hortovanyi . I’ve just got back from a windy cycle around the GC of 87 KM http://connect.garmin.com/activity/65545318. So please excuse me :)

                        Where can we find out more about you Pete?

                    • RS
                      Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:33 pm | Permalink |

                      Business slow Nick?

                      Need a free plug eh?… Good for you, you are indeed an entrepreneur, getting that freebie in.

                      But MS, WTF!

                      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:44 pm | Permalink |

                        Business is always slow in Australia, RS. Australian organisations and business are so far behind the US in technology adoption it continues to amaze me as well as frustrate me. The technology adoption lag time, though dropping, between here and the US, is significant.

                        From what I’m gleaming on here, there are some that can/will see this lag. But most appear not.

                        Investing 45 Billion AUD into a network to give faster access, when most as far as we can tell, are happy with existing speeds, seems pointless with out better drivers then “I think this would be nice.” or “It sounds like a good idea”.

                        Australia is lagging behind in what has already been addressed as the new challenges of this century – innovation in green technology and information technology. This 45 Billion AUD investment does nothing to help develop the skills needed for Australia to compete here. To tell you the truth, I’d be a lot richer if I became a tradie!!

                        So your snotty unsubstantiated remarks, are not well received. Would you like some more FIGJAM :)

                      • RS
                        Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:55 pm | Permalink |

                        No need to sob like a child Nicky…

                        You made stupid comments regarding the NBN and wireless and then bagged your own wireless devices… the words DER and d’oh come to mind…

                        Then you say I must be from Microsoft… the words DER and d’oh again come to mind, see a pattern forming because of YOUR DUMB comments Nicky?

                        My friend [sic]… enjoy your own delusions of grandeur…!

                      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 2:00 pm | Permalink |

                        @RS – If i took over a project team you were working on – you’d be one of the first I’d sack :) .. everyone else would then be far more productive!

                      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 3:44 pm | Permalink |

                        Attention kids,

                        keep it civil and related to the issues, please. Don’t make me bring out the moderation rod of doom.

                        Cheers,

                        Renai
                        Delimiter Overwatch

                      • RS
                        Posted 31/01/2011 at 3:44 pm | Permalink |

                        YOU… MY boss Nicky boy?

                        LOL………………………..!!!!!!!!!

      • alain
        Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:19 pm | Permalink |

        @RS

        Problem with that grand wave the flag cue Australian National Anthem ‘it’s for everybody’ statement is that not everybody wants it.

        • RS
          Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:38 pm | Permalink |

          @ alain… that is true (at last) good point.

          Those who don’t want it are those like you, who have cable (available at least).

          Or Liberal politicians/puppets

          Or A few dopey Telstra shareholders

          Or Business owners who see the NBN as detrimental to their profits

          Or Employees thereof

          Imo…!

          So which are you?

          • alain
            Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:26 pm | Permalink |

            Oh the sad usual tired agenda of trotting out the personal attack based on a posters motivations which you know nothing about at all ( like a lot of things), rhetoric repetition is lazy – do you have the same copy & paste text macro on a F key which you press when you don’t have anything pertinent to say but feel obliged to post something as a counter as the self-appointed pro-NBN 24/7 attack dog.

            • RS
              Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:41 pm | Permalink |

              And you have the same UNANSWERED reply – copy/paste – F key (F for FUD) in reply…

              So instead of you hiding, not answering (I have answered my motives), blaming me for your evasiveness and you despicably using multiple names to post, just tell us why you bag the NBN, there must be a reason…?

              Spit it out (refer above for categories) or keep running Forrest!

              • Posted 29/01/2011 at 2:59 pm | Permalink |

                @RS – Does RS stand for something like [CENSORED]

                [Editor's note: Keep it civil kids. I am watching, despite the fact it's a weekend. I have God mode here on my own site and I know Karate. Cheers, Renai]

                • Pete
                  Posted 29/01/2011 at 3:02 pm | Permalink |

                  You two, just get a room and be done with it.

                • RS
                  Posted 30/01/2011 at 11:52 am | Permalink |

                  Spoken like a true entrepreneur Nick…LOL!

              • Posted 29/01/2011 at 3:45 pm | Permalink |

                hey RS,

                your appearance on Delimiter has been marked with a rapid increase in the level of petty insults on the site. You’re welcome to post here, but don’t think I’m not watching. I’ve only censored or edited a handful of comments in the past year — don’t make me increase my ratio. I like having my Saturdays off ;)

                Renai
                Delimiter Overwatch

                • RS
                  Posted 29/01/2011 at 5:58 pm | Permalink |

                  Hey Renai, do as you must…

                  But I’m not here to make friends with those who wish to take from my (and their own) kids and possible grand kids futures, because of their own selfish greed.

                  I am here to deliver the facts, which point to the NBN being a fantastic and much needed investment for all Australians (again even those who oppose it).

                  If in doing so, I find those naysayers to be disgraceful liars and I tell them so and they react, cest la vie`.

                  But remember, Renai it takes two to tango…!

                  But gee I was expecting a cheque for all the added business I am drumming up for you…LOL!

    6. Aussie Bob
      Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:02 pm | Permalink |

      Renai you’re argument is quite absurd. Just because the NBN doesn’t get rolled out to the entire country doesn’t mean it’s a waste. You may or not be aware but the internet is a network of networks so it continues to function quite well without it all needing to be exactly the same infrastructure. With any luck the Libs will use much better judgement and then allow the private sector to continue any upgrades to technology and focus scarce taxpayers funds on improving areas of greatest need that isn’t being serviced by the private sector. The Australian taxpayer really doesn’t need to take on all the risk.

      • Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:03 pm | Permalink |

        You won’t call my argument absurd when the suburb next to yours has fibre and yours — 200m down the road — doesn’t, because of a short-sighted political policy. You’ll be baying for blood.

        • Martin Eddy
          Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:16 pm | Permalink |

          ‘You won’t call my argument absurd when the suburb next to yours has fibre and yours — 200m down the road — doesn’t, because of a short-sighted political policy. You’ll be baying for blood.’

          This is exactly the problem. Aside from being just plain stupid. It is political suicide.

          I would have no problem if the Liberals came up with an alternate plan to continue the NBN but to basically just scrap it is to cut of your nose to spite your face.

          • Rich
            Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:59 pm | Permalink |

            @Martin Eddy

            “I would have no problem if the Liberals came up with an alternate plan to continue the NBN but to basically just scrap it is to cut of your nose to spite your face”

            so what would you make of the comment “identify the areas that are deficient in terms of connectivity and prioritise them and make sure they are addressed.”

            sound like Turnbull is proposing the alternate plan you’ve asked for.

            • Martin Eddy
              Posted 28/01/2011 at 6:09 pm | Permalink |

              That’s not alternate way to continue with the NBN. That’s going back to their election policy. It may have been fine when you only had a couple of test sites in Tasmania set up but by 2013 the NBN rollout is likely to be in full spin with long term contracts signed.

              You can’t just stop the FTTH rollout and go and fix pair gain and RIM issues and tell people that’s comparable.

              I’ve said this many time but what the hell I’ll say it again.

              I voted against the NBN at the election but the NBN rollout is happening now. It’s time to give up on the arguments against it and just make sure it’s done properly.

              • Rich
                Posted 28/01/2011 at 7:22 pm | Permalink |

                I’m not arguing for or against the NBN, I’m merely pointing out that you wanted them to consider alternatives rather than scrap/stop dead any future investment in broadband.

                Conveniently, that’s what Turnbull’s suggested.

                Now, there is nothing wrong with copper if it meets your needs. I have copper today and don’t feel I need anything better. (Although will not knock back NBN when it appears).

                I also like it how everyone needs *equal* access rather than *equivalent* access. After all, there a heaps of ways to transport IP packets, whats so bad about keeping some alternatives in the mix so long as everyone gets the throughput they need?

                Personally I’d push for a pro-rural/regional policy. Honestly they need relatively better infrastructure than the cities. That’s not equal access, but i’m happy to support some bias in the architecture.

            • RS
              Posted 28/01/2011 at 11:23 pm | Permalink |

              Lip service with absolutely no detail…!

              • alain
                Posted 29/01/2011 at 11:49 am | Permalink |

                Coming from you of all posters frequenting Delimiter is the best example of 100% hypocrisy you will ever see.

                • RS
                  Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink |

                  @alain, as I said before, I have reduced you to nothing more than a mindless troll (demonstrated yet again – thank you).

                  Of course though, I then retracted half of that and restated you simply as troll, as the other part you were obviously born with…and I can’t take credit for that!

                  So also as I have clearly offered before, “debate me”. I even suggested you to pick the topic (so something you may actually have minimal knowledge of)? But no.. you are ill-equipped, to debate one on one!

                  You obviously have no spine and are scared, after being humiliated with your own ridiculous contradictions at ZD (so much so that you have even had to change your posting name, from advocate to alain)… LOL!

                  Just keep running Forrest…!

        • Sean
          Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:44 pm | Permalink |

          Exactly, like the current situation we have now where some suburbs have cable, some have ADSL1, some have ADSL2+, and some have nothing at all except intermittent wireless connections.

          The NBN offers a level playing field with access for all. Turnbull and Abbott are not going to win any fans with these latest thoughtless comments.

          • Martin Eddy
            Posted 28/01/2011 at 6:00 pm | Permalink |

            Yep. Before the election I was ok with the libs idea for a patch up job because I don’t trust any government with a project of this size and I tend to side with them on economic matters.

            BUT once the next election comes around, the NBN will be 4-5 years in to 10-12 year rollout. I will not support a political party that wants to scrap something just because it was someone else’s idea.

            Malcom Turnbull, You need to tell Tony Abbot to STFU. He may have brought you guys close to winning at the last election but he will do the opposite at the next election if he keeps up this attack on the NBN.

            Push for transparency and CBA’s all you want but stop this rubbish about scrapping the NBN. Just accept that it’s going ahead and tell people that if you win the next election you will make NBNco accountable to the taxpayers.

            • Rich
              Posted 28/01/2011 at 7:25 pm | Permalink |

              “I will not support a political party that wants to scrap something just because it was someone else’s idea.”

              You mean like how Conroy cancelled the OPEL project which would have been completed last year?

              Just saying.

              • RS
                Posted 28/01/2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink |

                No that was a silly idea… making it a wise decision, big difference!

                • Rich
                  Posted 29/01/2011 at 9:54 am | Permalink |

                  and scrapping the existing HFC networks which can offer 100Mbps today? Another one of Conroy’s good ideas?

                  • RS
                    Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:16 pm | Permalink |

                    Well Rich, according to your fellow NBN nay-sayer alain. Who lives in an area where they have HFC, he reckons it’s a flop, that bled $ms!

                    This is one of his pet lines for claiming the NBN will fail (before his inevitable contradictions came…LOL)? But again as witnessed in this thread, he is again (today anyway) bagging the HFC network and making NBN comparisons. So…

                    Here’s exactly what he said 1/1 (and he knows everything [sic] just ask him) – “I have an above ground network in my street, it is called Optus HFC, it is mainly used by birds to sit on and possums to run along”….

                    In that case, why keep it?

                    You nay-sayers should at least synchronise your stories instead of saying opposites!

                    • Rich
                      Posted 29/01/2011 at 3:02 pm | Permalink |

                      I’m hardly a nay-sayer, just because I point out the hypocrisy in a lot of the comments here, doesn’t mean I’m not pro broadband nor understand the value of fibre.

                      However, Unlike some of the commenters here, I don’t have blind faith based on my voting preferences. You’ll notice I argue both sides of the fence.

                      I’ve actually worked on the architecture for NBN. What have you contributed?

                      • RS
                        Posted 29/01/2011 at 6:19 pm | Permalink |

                        I have contributed my full support…

                        Rich, that is very disappointing news that even those like yourself inside the NBN aren’t as supportive as myself. Gee the NBN cops enough from the Coalition and their puppets without insiders not being 100% behind it!

                        And as I have clearly said before, my vote is earned, I am no political puppet. But at this point in time the Libs (I previously voted for Howard, as mentioned many times before) are just so far out of the picture and so far to the right, it’s frightening.

                        But there’s a big difference between political support and NBN support. I’m sure their are Liberal voters who support the NBN and are amazed at their party’s “head in the sand” NBN views. Just as I’m sure their are Labor voters who can’t see the benefits… Anyway…!

                        i note you didn’t mention the HFC again…!

                      • Rich
                        Posted 29/01/2011 at 9:12 pm | Permalink |

                        @RS

                        Thanks, Glad to see you jumped from defending your point of view to petty cheap shots.

                        You’re clearly trolling so i’ll finish by saying that I wish full support for grand visions were all it took, and that there were never any tradeoffs required to complete any major project. Unfortunately tradeoffs like coverage vs cost occur and a one size fits all approach is never really that simple. These are the battles which will occur throughout the life of NBN regardless of who is in government.

                        Perhaps one day you’ll realize we spent a hell of a lot of money to replace a monopoly, and had to create another one to do so.

                        As with all trolls you’re dead to me…

                      • RS
                        Posted 30/01/2011 at 12:04 pm | Permalink |

                        Oh Rich, nice excuse when one has nowhere to go, scream troll and place fingers in ears, nice…!

                        You said you were involved in the NBN but also made a sarcastic swipe saying “you don’t have blind faith because of your voting preference”. Then you smugly asked what I had done. So I answered the two.

                        Funny how in your eyes I am a troll and hypocrite for suggesting it sad that those inside the NBN aren’t 100% committed and for me comparing/mentioning OPEL…

                        But you, of course, aren’t a troll for calling myself and another who simply mentioned OPEL hypocrites and for suggesting we are purely speaking via our voting preferences…!

                        Ditto your last line right back at you my friend [sic]…!

              • Martin Eddy
                Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:46 am | Permalink |

                You got me there. That really was a stupid thing for me to say. If it were true I’d have to vote for no one.

        • alain
          Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:25 pm | Permalink |

          @Renai LeMay

          You mean like the suburbs that sit next to a HFC enabled suburb that are ‘baying for blood’, sorry I missed all that baying when the HFC rollout stopped all those years ago.

          Complaints over the years since the HFC rollout was stopped dead in its tracks?- one big deafening chasm of silence!

    7. Posted 28/01/2011 at 5:58 pm | Permalink |

      …”quickly conduct a rigorous cost-benefit analysis…”

      What?

      He wants a “rigourous” cost-benefit analysis, but wants it “quickly”…sorry Malcolm, that makes zero sense. If you do something rigourously, you take your time to do it properly, not rush through it “quickly”.

      A quick dollar you made throwing some money at what was ultimately became a failed ISP (read: business) more than a decade ago – (OzEmail) – does not make you an expert on telecommunications.

      How many sales calls have you taken from potential customers complaining about not being able to be provisioned broadband because of their location? How many broadband services have you had provisioned? How many networks have you built?

      I bet the answer to all of the above is the same. Zero.

      You demonstrate time and time again you have no understanding of the REAL issues facing the telecommunications industry, all the while hiding behind the fact you you just threw some money at OzEmail, based on a business plan that offered you a quick monetary return.

      Just sitting in interviews playing with your iPad and ignoring the proceedings – (like you do all the time) – does not promote credibility.

      It’s a childish “stamping of the feet” that says – “we are not interested in the NBN, and we are not interested in what anyone else has to say”.

      Grow some balls and start listening to people.

    8. Mike ELLIOTT
      Posted 28/01/2011 at 6:22 pm | Permalink |

      It should be stopped and a cost benifit be done. Only then can a dcesion be made to write off a large expense or continue with the roll out if the sums addup. The biggest problem is its all so secret that nobody can make an informed decision. Conroy should make the facts available to the public that are paying for it.

    9. Posted 28/01/2011 at 7:30 pm | Permalink |

      Maybe we should ask him to do a CBA on his CBA proposal, she how he likes it. :)

      • Posted 28/01/2011 at 11:20 pm | Permalink |

        Where was the CBA for the Coalition broadband scheme?

        Where was the CBA for their paid parental leave scheme which imposed a levy – (you know, one of those “big new taxes” TAbbott is always complaining about) – on big business?

        Where was the CBA for the Ansett levy imposed on all of us to pay for the entitlements of the Ansett employees in 2001/2002?

        Hypocritical to the end – and I’m of a conservative political perspective.

        • alain
          Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:33 pm | Permalink |

          @MichealWyres

          Except its NOT JUST Turnbull asking for a CBA is it? – it’s the Independents, the Greens and the Coalition members of Parliament., and the Governor of the Reserve Bank amongst others.

          ‘Hypocritical to the end’.

          Indeed.

          • RS
            Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:50 pm | Permalink |

            WRONG…

            Turnbull put the bill to parliament to vote on having an NBN CBA and it was defeated.

            Disproving you lies that the independents and Greens want a CBA…!

            And tell us what Graeme Samuel said…?

            • deteego
              Posted 31/01/2011 at 11:11 am | Permalink |

              Actually you are deliberatly misrepresenting.

              Tony Windsor supported Malcolm Turnbulls bill, its just that Malcom Turnbull needs unanimous support from the independents.

              That does NOT mean that there are no Independents/greens that support him

              • RS
                Posted 31/01/2011 at 3:52 pm | Permalink |

                The bill was lost…!

                Play silly, insecure, pedantic games all you like, but again the bill was lost.

                Had, as the incorrect naysayer WRONGLY suggested, the Greens and Independent been calling for a CBA, it would have passed, wouldn’t it?

                Well?

                But it didn’t so again…

                WRONG… and no comment from the one making the WRONG claims, LOL!

    10. Anderson
      Posted 28/01/2011 at 10:58 pm | Permalink |

      Its interesting how it’ll pan out. Obviously if consumer NBN prices and services are socially acceptable and NBN Co is actually on track at achieving ‘govt debt’ returns, then NBN is a clear winner and would be untouchable.

      NBN Co already spent like a billion dollars already with something like 4 billion in upcoming contracts. All this for 4,000 current potential customers and 15,000 odd under construction. For the 1 million odd potential NBN customers hooked up by 2013 (election time), the total govt spend on NBN is going to come under close scrutiny. If it can be shown that NBN Co will continue to require constant govt expenditure with no end in sight (aka cashflow neutral), then even voters will have a rethink.

      Look at all the Green schemes that just got cut yesterday. A fair portion of the public have been benefitting from it and yet you don’t hear any major outcry even from those that ‘missed out’. Voters don’t always like extra services when they know they have to pay for it through tax anyways. In the end they reevaluate programs based on their actual benefits versus cost.

    11. Sydneysider in Los Angeles
      Posted 29/01/2011 at 8:50 am | Permalink |

      An IT professional from Sydney that has lived in many countries, I look at the unique population density and education level in the Australian environment and see great value in the NBN proposition for connecting our people with each other and the world. It’s a long term project, something that will have all kinds of dividends many years in to the future. People asking “what does it do for me?” need to grow up and think outside their own massive egos (difficult as that may be). The ability to simultaneously live in real nature and to have decent internet access guaranteed is almost unique on our planet and could easily encourage investment by both individuals and businesses in areas of the country that are presently less than well rounded in terms of job opportunities.

      • Posted 29/01/2011 at 11:58 am | Permalink |

        Stay in Los Angeles. You’ll get better net access over there soon when the Americans deploy broadband properly.

        Every time I visit Sydney CBD, I get the worse Internet connectivity of any capital city of Australia. My iPad 3G hardly ever works on Telstra, there is no free wifi (that I’ve found) and my iPhone 3Gs with Three has the same problems as the iPad. That is that Sydney’s 3G internet coverage is so poor, you might as well not even try and use the internet whilst there. Don’t think the NBN will fix that, do you?

        • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:16 pm | Permalink |

          That’s known as contention, and that is always going to be a problem, in fact it will become MORE of a problem if you don’t provide cheap fixed line services to keep people OFF the wireless networks.

          • alain
            Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:37 pm | Permalink |

            You can provide all the cheap fixed line services you like, like we have today with cheap ADSL2+ and Naked DSL, but consumers are not interested in Smartphones, Ipads etc that require tethering by wire to a NBN box.

            • Posted 29/01/2011 at 12:59 pm | Permalink |

              … You aren’t listening to a word I am saying are you.

              I am saying that if you want people to be able to use their mobile devices to their full potentional you need to make sure that mobile devices, and only mobile devices, are actually being used on the mobile network. Otherwise you’ll get a whole of of “leechers” I think they are called these days clogging up the network, and that will make everyone unhappy.

              Also, do you know what WiFi is? It is another technology which allows you to reduce your depednence on wireless networks so that whenever people use them it isn’t clogged up with people who are using their iPad at home and could be downloading that music from iTunes via a fixed line broadband connection.

              Or how about WiFi technologies like FON? It’s a technology which allows you to use another persons WiFi network when you’re hanging out around their place, e.g. a cafe, and take people off the wireless networks.

              If these things don’t happen… well in 5 years time I’ll let you deal with all the customers coming into VHA saying that their network is crap and demanding refunds and to be let out of their contracts early… oh wait, that has already HAPPENED… Optus then… oh wait, that has already HAPPENED too.

              • Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:32 pm | Permalink |

                I thought the Wi in WiFi stood for wireless? … thus your statement maybe would of made more sense as stating Carrier operated Wireless Data Networks though 3G etc

                • Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:34 pm | Permalink |

                  Sorry, there is a tendency to refer to “wireless” in my circle to mean mobile wireless networks over a large geographic area. This tendency can cause confusion, however with that in mind do you understand my point?

              • alain
                Posted 30/01/2011 at 10:39 am | Permalink |

                @NightKaos

                Your not listening to what I am saying, I don’t care what the ‘intent’ or not is to get customers off wireless networks ( assumming there is one in the first place!) the end product is what is driving the demand, the end product is increasing in supply and diversity as more and more manufactures and Telco’s ramp up their systems to meet the almost insatiable demand, have you had a look at the worlwide sales of the IPhone and Android Smartphones lately?

                Apple is rated the second biggest company in $$ worth in the USA, and it’s not because it sells FTTH modems and fixed line BB!

                There is going to be a lag as the wireless network upgrades are in in catch-up mode, although Telstra saw where the market was heading and is now reaping the benefit as more and more dissatisfied customers leave those networks you mentioned for NextG, but it won’t always be like that, Optus and Vodafone won’t like watching the customer bleed to NextG forever.

                • Posted 30/01/2011 at 11:22 am | Permalink |

                  “@NightKaos”

                  It is NightKhaos. With an H. Spell it correctly. Thank you.

                  “Your not listening to what I am saying, I don’t care what the ‘intent’ or not is to get customers off wireless networks ( assumming there is one in the first place!) the end product is what is driving the demand, the end product is increasing in supply and diversity as more and more manufactures and Telco’s ramp up their systems to meet the almost insatiable demand, have you had a look at the worlwide sales of the IPhone and Android Smartphones lately?”

                  You should care about the “intent” because the “intent” I am referring to is a fundamental problem with wireless networks, they have a minimal capacity. The demand for smart-phones is what is driving this intent!

                  Telecoms can only ramp up their systems so far until one of two things happen: 1) they run out of spectrum, in which case laying denser tower networks will prove to be useless because of interference or 2) they run out of money, in which case they can no longer afford to run the fibre back-haul and install the towers in a denser frequency in order to meet demand.

                  Both of these trends work together to mean that mobile wireless providers will do everything in their power to reduce the amount of usage on their network so that a) they can maximum profits and b) they can keep their prices low and competitive and c) they can use their maximised profits and large customer base to upgrade their network to the next generation of technology and meet demand.

                  The evidence for this trend is overwhelming I am surprised you can continue to push this “wireless is the future” crap in good conscious. Because of limited resources in place the demand for more mobile data will only serve to INCREASE the cost of mobile data, because the resource will become more scarce. Is this not basic economics? If the supply is finite, increases in demand will result in an under-supply which will serve to drive up prices.

                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12160654
                  http://cow.neondragon.net/index.php/thoughts-on-mobile-data
                  http://4gtrends.com/?p=4627

                  I like that last one “Just to show what a delicate tightrope carriers have to walk nowadays in mobile data, T-Mobile UK has performed a U-turn on plans to impose stringent data caps on existing customers, a change that will be taken to heart by its sister firm, and many others, across the pond. In a bid to protect their networks from the explosion in data usage, most carriers in developed markets are introducing data caps and other curbs on the mobile YouTube brigade, though most with greater subtlety than TMo achieved. Last week it said that, from February 1, fair usage limits of just 500Mbytes per month would be introduced for monthly deals that include browsing. This halved the existing cap of 1Gbyte, or 3Gbytes for Android smartphones.”

                  “Apple is rated the second biggest company in $$ worth in the USA, and it’s not because it sells FTTH modems and fixed line BB!”

                  And good on them, but they should know better than anyone the limits of wireless technologies.

                  http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/conference-wifi-congestion-messes-up-jobs-demo/

                  “There is going to be a lag as the wireless network upgrades are in in catch-up mode, although Telstra saw where the market was heading and is now reaping the benefit as more and more dissatisfied customers leave those networks you mentioned for NextG, but it won’t always be like that, Optus and Vodafone won’t like watching the customer bleed to NextG forever.”

                  Aye, and that’ll be fine, I love wireless, I use wireless, I think that everyone should have a smart-phone and use it wherever they are, they are great devices. I believe that wireless carriers should be upgrading their networks as much as possible to account for this wave of connectivity we are experiencing, but as someone familiar with the technology I KNOW that we are going to run out of capacity, and soon.

                  So I, and other experts like me, will do everything in their power to ensure that this demand for connectivity does not overwhealm our 3G and 4G networks. That means forcing people to use home or office WiFi when possible, and encouraging people to take up that out of date technology of the fixed line, so that you and the rest of the world can enjoy your wireless nirvana, and ultimately tell us that we are fools for supporting an out of date technology.

                  Well, to be honest, I’d rather you continued to brand me a fool as I keep supporting fixed line technologies rather than sit back and watch what happens when we don’t. Come on, I dare you, next week, for a week, I want you to go and hand out wireless dongles around say Sydney and get everyone to disconnect their ADSL and cable connections, just for a week. I promise I won’t say I told you so.

                  • alain
                    Posted 31/01/2011 at 1:05 pm | Permalink |

                    “but as someone familiar with the technology I KNOW that we are but as someone familiar with the technology I KNOW that we are going to run out of capacity, and soon..”

                    I am not sure what you mean by this, wireless capacity is dynamic just like fixed line capacity, you run out of ADSL ports you put more DSLAM’s in, you run out of backhaul capacity you upgrade that capacity.

                    The use of wireless spectrum and the technologies to extract the maximum from in it is in its infancy, we are in reality only into the second generation of wireless topology, look at ADSL who would thought you could extract speeds such as ADSL2+ Annex M out of two copper wires when copper was laid for analogue voiced based PSTN all those years ago in the era of the PMG?

                    Also Australia is no where near the population densities of overseas cities like New York, London, Tokyo, Seoul etc are you asserting these cities have come to a grinding halt with wireless capacity, or soon will be – what does ‘we are going to run out of capacity and soon’ actually mean and why?

                    “want you to go and hand out wireless dongles around say Sydney and get everyone to disconnect their ADSL and cable connections, just for a week. I promise I won’t say I told you so.”

                    I don’t need to that is happening anyway, I know of many who have disconnected their fixed line altogether and are quite content with a mobile capped plan for both voice and data.

                    What I find interesting is the feature that has a 3G modem connection on many ADSL modems today, automatic fall back to wireless if your ADSL drops out – interesting ‘technical trend’ don’t you think?

                    :)

                    • Posted 31/01/2011 at 2:09 pm | Permalink |

                      “I am not sure what you mean by this, wireless capacity is dynamic just like fixed line capacity, you run out of ADSL ports you put more DSLAM’s in, you run out of backhaul capacity you upgrade that capacity.”

                      The use of wireless spectrum and the technologies to extract the maximum from in it is in its infancy, we are in reality only into the second generation of wireless topology, look at ADSL who would thought you could extract speeds such as ADSL2+ Annex M out of two copper wires when copper was laid for analogue voiced based PSTN all those years ago in the era of the PMG?”

                      This is true, however, there are key differences between ADSL2+ and wireless you need to understand:

                      1) Legacy fallback. In an ADSL2+ technology if you modem cannot handle the modulation technology the DSLAM is providing or visa versa, the modem, will, via a process of neogication, work of the optimal transfer rate. This is also how it works out the sync speed for your connection, by testing various modulations and seeing which one comes through and which one the information is degraded such that you cannot push any more data.

                      In wireless however you can’t do this, as the medium is a shared spectrum. If you use a legacy fallback situation, you will find, like with WiFi, you end up restoring to the lowest common demoniator. For example, in a Wireless 802.11n 2.4Ghz network did you know that if there is a device that is only capable of 802.11b or 802.11g that the network will default to that standard? So even through you can theoritically get 300Mbps out of your connection, because of that one legacy device, you can only get 54Mbps (g) or 11Mbps (b), and those speeds are in ideal conditions, not accounting for noise, etc, etc.

                      Imagine if your ADSL2+ connection was connected to hundreds of households at once, and if just one of these households had an old legacy modem only capable of ADSL then all the connections will fallback to ADSL.

                      Because of the lack of legacy fallback you therefore do not place upgraded technology in the same spectrum as older technology, so that anyone connected to the new technology can get the new performance. This has the problem in that when you are running two concurrent, or in the case of the USA right now, three concurrent network types of different technology, each network type needs it’s own spectrum allocation. Imagine how ADSL would function that if you wanted to upgrade from ADSL to ADSL2+ you would need to get a new copper cable run to a different exchange? It just wouldn’t be cost effective to do it would it?

                      2) Limited Spectrum. Limited spectrum is the biggest problem with wireless. The amount of spectrum you get can get determines basicly everything about you network. If you run out of spectrum, you have to buy more, and spectrum is a very, very scare resource. This is why the government is forcing the switch to digital television, because the TV spectrum has some very vaulable spectrum that can be used for next generation wireless technology.

                      If you want to overcome problems with average speed to consumers in a densely populated area for example, you need more spectrum to do it, so that you have multiple overlapping channels for the clients to switch between and be load balanced between users.

                      If you want to overcome problems of limited speed by increasing the side of the pipe, without a new technology, you need more spectrum to do it, so that you can give more spectrum per channel.

                      This is in stake contrast to fibre or ADSL, where if you need a sudden increase in capacity to a certain client or area, you can literally just run another parrallel cable. This ability is combined with the advances in the speeds achievable over fibre and copper, whereas the only way, without acquring more spectrum in wireless, to improve speeds is to wait for a new and better technology to come along.

                      And it’s not like, with fibre and copper, you can say “We have upgraded our equipment, so if you upgrade yours, you’ll be able to get more speed”, althrough in HSPA+ this is what they are able to do (but again it has problems of legacy fallback meaning that in very rare circumstances do you actually get the extra speed your equipment is entitled too), if you upgrade your equipment, you need to setup a whole new parallel network to the legacy one, and slowly phase customers out of the old network.

                      With ADSL you still have customers on 7 year old ADSL modems who are still able to connect with no problem, and no reason to upgrade their modem at all. However, in 7 years time, 3G technology may have all but been phased out and you won’t be able to use that 3G dongle you brought 7 years ago, you’ll need to go get another one.

                      “Also Australia is no where near the population densities of overseas cities like New York, London, Tokyo, Seoul etc are you asserting these cities have come to a grinding halt with wireless capacity, or soon will be – what does ‘we are going to run out of capacity and soon’ actually mean and why?”

                      Our overall population density is less, that much is obvious, but as I believe I demonstrated you before with a couple of statistics, in urban areas our population density is the same, and in some cases greater (Sydney vs Kyoto) than other cities across the world. And yes, I am asserting they may run out of wireless capacity if they aren’t careful, don’t use fixed line connections to suppliment their wireless ones, and don’t take measures to acquire new spectrum or phase out legacy technologies. The FCC has been warning the wireless industry for YEARS that there is a looming spectrum crisis in America. In the UK they have been phasing out, like we have, analog television in order to resell the spectrum for wireless carrriers. It is a constant battle, and it’s a wonder, to be perfectly honest, we haven’t run smack damn into it just yet considering the almost expontiental uptake of wireless broadband across the world.

                      “I don’t need to that is happening anyway, I know of many who have disconnected their fixed line altogether and are quite content with a mobile capped plan for both voice and data.”

                      And that is fine, but that “many people” you talk about is a minority, 15%, if it increases too much you will see that wireless networks are just not able to keep up with demand fast enough without drastic measures like cutting quotas like T-Mobile did in the UK, or rasing prices, or, my personal faviourate and honestly prefered option, running a parallel fixed line service and incentivising uptake by effectively making a loss on their fixed line network and offseting the cost by their wireless market.

                      “What I find interesting is the feature that has a 3G modem connection on many ADSL modems today, automatic fall back to wireless if your ADSL drops out – interesting ‘technical trend’ don’t you think?”

                      And if all modems have this feature (which only a small percentage do) and it was automatically enabled when say, an exchange went out, then you would find that the geographic area would sudddenly grind to a halt due to contention. And this is the point I was trying to make with the “experiment”. Wireless networks do not, will not, and will NEVER, have the capacity to take all fixed line traffic in urban areas

                      It is a foolish notion to even CONSIDER a wireless NBN solution in urban areas. Out in the sticks, yes, it’s fine, and you’ll note the NBN acknowledges this by oftering these people fixed wireless or satalite services rather than fibre.

                      Granted, the “cut off point” of a 1000 people in a town in my opionion could possibly be higher, a way to save costs maybe, using FTTN in these areas or fixed wireless? I’d be all for that option… but fixed wireless in metro areas, as prosposed by the Liberals? It is NOT going to work. It doesn’t matter what the market trends are, at some point, we’re going to run out of spectrum. It’s not an IF, it’s a WHEN. And to even suggest it not only poor planning, it’s neglience.

                      Just like everyone thought NAT would bring and end to concerns that IPv4 will run out of addresses, well guess what is happening right now as we speak? 11 million addresses and counting….

    12. alain
      Posted 29/01/2011 at 11:00 am | Permalink |

      A few points require comment from the main article:

      1.NBN Co’s business case, after all, tells us that by 2013 the NBN infrastructure will have been rolled out to some 1.7 million premises, with most of those receiving fibre directly to their door.

      That’s assuming the rollout is on schedule, that all those premises do take a connection and that those that say yes to the ‘free’ connection activate a ISP NBN plan that sucks down heaps of IPTV and HD movies to multiple points in the residence to justify the NBN’s reason for existence.

      2. By promising to cancel the NBN if the Coalition wins the next election, in the face of public opinion

      What ‘public opinion’ is it in the face of?

      3.and it shows that Abbott and Turnbull have learnt very little from the 2010 election, in which broadband was a key issue.

      The Coaltion lost the election by the narrowest of margins on a no NBN policy, Labor is in power courtesy of the Independents and one Green vote, if a pro NBN vote was a key issue as you assert Labor would have romped it in in their own right .
      Perhaps you meant to say it was NOT a key issue.

      4.Turnbull is demonstrating a faithfulness to the Liberals’ fiscally responsible dogma that verges on the extreme.

      Unlike the responsible Labor fiscal dogma, as shown by the national insulation program and the School Buildings fiasco, and now the full on backlash about the Flood levy?

      5.So far I have resisted buying into Labor’s hype that the NBN is Australia’s next Sydney Harbour Bridge. But in this case the comparison is apt.

      You have just bought into it , but never mind.

      6. You wouldn’t cancel the construction of the Harbour Bridge halfway through — and neither would you scrap a nationwide fibre rollout right when it it starting to deliver on its long-held promises.

      Except the NBN rollout does not equal the Harbour Bridge build, you on the one hand say such a comparison is ‘Labor hype’, then you change direction and say the ‘comparison is apt’.

      What you might having a bet both ways eh?

      Also in what way is it starting to deliver on its ‘longheld promises’ – what promises are they exactly and what way have they been ‘delivered’?

    13. Pete
      Posted 29/01/2011 at 1:04 pm | Permalink |

      @Nick:
      “My last name makes me fairly unique”
      But citing external sources does not in and of itself prove that you’re who you say you are. Even to the extent someone may have cracked your various login credentials and are running a social engineering experiment.
      I could cite a shedload of stuff attempting to prove/show who I am, but same rules apply for me. As I recognise it’s pointless, the request is fundamentally flawed.

    14. deteego
      Posted 31/01/2011 at 10:42 am | Permalink |

      Its only political suicide in the minds of the people that get hardons for fast internet, or that telecommunications will defy the laws of history and magically freeze in time if the NBN is never built

      • deteego
        Posted 31/01/2011 at 10:47 am | Permalink |

        Also comparing the NBN to a bridge as an analogy for not stopping the network is ridiculously uneducated, the NBN can be stopped at any time, it won’t have any impact on the operation of the network that has already been built. Its just the people that will have NBN will continue to have it and use it.

        We already have ‘bridges’ around Australia, they are called the backhaul, they already exist. If your analogy was correct, then Tasmania’s NBN would be ‘useless’ since they would be unable to use it unless the network is fully built (just like a bridge)

        • Posted 31/01/2011 at 11:56 am | Permalink |

          “Its only political suicide in the minds of the people that get hardons for fast internet, or that telecommunications will defy the laws of history and magically freeze in time if the NBN is never built”

          I am actually quite offended by this comment, and I don’t think I am alone in this. You seriously think us the geeks, that support the NBN, are actually nieve enough to think that the NBN is the ONLY way to deliever broadband to the this country and that if it doesn’t happen we’ll somehow never advance at all?

          Obviously you haven’t been paying attention. We are frustrated, because we have been waiting patiently for almost half a decade ever since the Liberals came up with thier “broadband connect” proposal, which resulted in the OPEL proposal, which at the time was a half decent solution with a bit of promise… and then Labor threw that out when they got into power, and now, 4 years later, we have only just started seeing tanigable results.

          Are we nieve to think that other people in our position might think the same and there might be enough of us to actually make a difference to the election? Has Labor been fouling us when they focused on the NBN as one of their main politcal policies into thinking that our little minority are important enough to make the difference? I don’t think so.

          We have been waiting patiently for over half a decade now, and Mr Turnbull here just wants to throw out it all out and reinvent the wheel again. Well I say not good enough, and if you really care about “waste” that governments produce, I ask you, why do you support a policy that would waste the most precious resource anyone has, our time?

          I think you are the short sighted one here, not us. To short sighted to see that we matter, to short sighted to see that our point of view might have some merit, too short sighted to see that we have a voice, to short sighted to see that even through the NBN might be the wrong way to do it, that doesn’t automatically make the Liberals proposals the right way.

          “Also comparing the NBN to a bridge as an analogy for not stopping the network is ridiculously uneducated, the NBN can be stopped at any time, it won’t have any impact on the operation of the network that has already been built. Its just the people that will have NBN will continue to have it and use it.”

          This is true, however I think he was refering to the costs the associated with all the signed contracts for equipment, all the hired staff, all the people whom you have already issued out notice of installations too, etc, etc, etc. You can’t just say “oh, we’ll stop now, sorry.” You need to finish your commitments. Sure they probably will not have commited to the whole hog by the time 2013 comes along, but there will be a significant amount that if the Liberals decide to scrap the project the project will have to continue ticking on for at least another 18 months before they can finally scrap it.

          • deteego
            Posted 31/01/2011 at 2:48 pm | Permalink |

            No I am saying that the people that honestly think this is political ‘suicide’ (even though this was obviously going to happen) probably have their priorities way out of wack. I can tell you that, as a nation (on the whole), the NBN is probably and the lower of the list when it comes to priorities, considering all the other much more important crap that is going on around now. At the end of the day people are more going to care about paying their bills or climate change and whatnot rather then having fast internet to download movies/music/porn

            Furthermore, politically speaking, the people that think this is political suicide would have never changed their vote anyways.

            And in regards to Liberals not doing anything about telecommunications industry, well thats because its privatized. The whole point of privatization is that you have minimalist government intervention (even though that never ended up happening anyways, with ACCC creaming up Telstra in the past 7 or so years). Obviously the issue is with Telstra not being separated, but this is no freaking mandate to create another monopoly, in fact that will put us backwards, and with those CVC charges and the amount of interest debt the treasury will have to pay due to the 38 billion dollar capital. I can garuntee you that the NBN will end up costing multitudes more then what the business case states, because the interest rates (as has been said by most economists) will not stay at the rate the business case is assuming, due to the 2 speed economy and the ridiculous amounts of money that Labor is borrowing/spending, creating inflationary pressure (along with housing pressure)

            If you honestly think the solution to this problem is to create another network, then you should get a reality check. People have to accept the fact that there are compromises for a reason, if you really honestly need Fiber internet so much, go to Japan or South Korea where its actually economical and sane to do a nationwide FTTH scheme. While you are there, you can also deal with all the problems that those countries have (which we don’t) such as extreme house/food prices, massively lower minimum wage, and all the social issues that the countries have

            “Are we nieve to think that other people in our position might think the same and there might be enough of us to actually make a difference to the election? Has Labor been fouling us when they focused on the NBN as one of their main politcal policies into thinking that our little minority are important enough to make the difference? I don’t think so.”

            Yes you are, its very obvious that Labors policy in the past few years have been creating unrealistic populist pork barelling policies, that although sound very nice in the media and on paper, in practicality create massive issues. Just like with all of the greens policies (and also the parties on the far right).

            “and now, 4 years later, we have only just started seeing tanigable results.”
            HAHAHAHAHAHA, tangible results?

            In 4 years, we have Tasmania on fiber, with 400 people using the NBN
            *slaps his face*

            The NBN is going to take 10-11 YEARS on the overly positive, best case scenario assumptions that NBNCo outlines. I am going to be stuck with, for example 5 mbit (not that I need any faster) for 10 years because of this lovely NBN, where as if the FTTN went through, then their plans would take 4-5 years max, and they would be able to do a massive amount of the population in a small amount of time (they could cover the cities in a couple of years). Same deal with coalitions plan

            Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The NBN is Labors political trump card, designed to appeal to the voters that they need to hold onto to have any chance for the election, this is obvious due to the fact that Conroy came up with the idea on the back of the envelope will handing it to Rudd on the plane, no thought given to the policies apart from making it ‘massive, just like with all their other policies (Murray Darling as an example).

            • Posted 31/01/2011 at 3:08 pm | Permalink |

              “And in regards to Liberals not doing anything about telecommunications industry, well thats because its privatized. The whole point of privatization is that you have minimalist government intervention (even though that never ended up happening anyways, with ACCC creaming up Telstra in the past 7 or so years).”

              Then why did they suggest Broadband Conenct in the first place? If privatisation is such an important “minial intervention” thing, why did they see fit to spend billions on the OPEL project back in 2007? I don’t think privitsation means what you think it means.

              “If you honestly think the solution to this problem is to create another network, then you should get a reality check. People have to accept the fact that there are compromises for a reason.”

              Compremises, yes, not throwing a plane out completely and starting from stratch. We’ve done this twice now, and the Liberals think that it’s a good idea to do it a third time. I must say, that’s a great idea isn’t it? You want to talk about compremises, I’m all up for that. But you want to talk about just throwing out a policy because you disagree with the premise, even through the industry is happy with the prosposal, 70% of the population was happy with it, and it was the reason that the opposition managed to gain control of the government in the first place? That isn’t compremising.

              “In 4 years, we have Tasmania on fiber, with 400 people using the NBN”

              And what in have the Liberals done in that time? 16 pages and a whole lot of ranting and raving. 16 pages and a whole lot of misconceptions to the public about the technology. 16 pages and NOTHING. 400 people on fibre is more tangiable than 16 freaking pages, 2 thirds of which, are just Liberals tell us how bad Labor are and how they have failed.

              “The NBN is going to take 10-11 YEARS on the overly positive, best case scenario assumptions that NBNCo outlines. I am going to be stuck with, for example 5 mbit (not that I need any faster) for 10 years because of this lovely NBN, where as if the FTTN went through, then their plans would take 4-5 years max, and they would be able to do a massive amount of the population in a small amount of time (they could cover the cities in a couple of years). Same deal with coalitions plan”

              And the FTTN plan would be out of date when finished. Welcome to reality, it’s a bitch isn’t it? The Coalitions plan you refer to wasn’t even up to date when it was written, let alone when they finish. I’m sorry, but you, like the Coalition are all talk, you want to impress me, you want to compremise, you want to find a better way, then do it, I’m sitting here waiting. You don’t even need to be that concise: 200 words. Can you do that?

              I get that the NBN is a big risk, I get that you are worried about the assumptions of the business case, I get that you think Labor are a bunch of whack jobs with no sense on reality. I get that you will do anything, even lie out of your arse at times, to stop them from running the country. I really do get that, I have my misgivings about them too. But I also think you are trying to hard to tell us what is wrong with Labor, like the Coalition, and not spending enough time telling us what you’re going to do. So what will you do? Cause right now, all we have is 16 pages, and those 16 pages aren’t worth the paper they are printed on to me.

    15. deteego
      Posted 31/01/2011 at 3:40 pm | Permalink |

      “Then why did they suggest Broadband Conenct in the first place? If privatisation is such an important “minial intervention” thing, why did they see fit to spend billions on the OPEL project back in 2007? I don’t think privitsation means what you think it means.”

      Do you understand what minimal means?
      Minimal != zero

      The whole point of OPEL was a subsidy for the rural/regional areas of Australia to provide broadband to where the private sector cannot deliver. Thats very different to putting fiber everywhere.

      “Compremises, yes, not throwing a plane out completely and starting from stratch.”
      Yes, the Liberals are going to put the NBN on fire and destroy what is currently built because they have nothing better to do. Hell even better, they are going to put all those school halls on fire, and all the insulation on fire. Yes those Liberal wreckers….

      (if you haven’t realised already, NBN can be stopped at whatever time, it will have no effect on the infrastructure thats already been built, anyone with a basic understands of networks will tell you that)

      “And the FTTN plan would be out of date when finished. Welcome to reality, it’s a bitch isn’t it? ”
      False
      FTTN has upgrade paths to fiber, have a look at the chorus cabinets in NewZealands, they have allocated space for GPON fiber systems

      Your reality is a fantasy, if you think ubiquity fiber is “out of date” then every country is out of date according to you.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy
      Stop doing it.

      Countries are mandating speeds, not technologies.

      “like the Coalition are all talk, you want to impress me, you want to compremise, you want to find a better way, then do it, I’m sitting here waiting. You don’t even need to be that concise: 200 words. Can you do that?”
      Im never going to impress people with the attitude of “fiber or nothing” just like I am never going to impress a kid with the attitude “I want my candy now”. Im not here to please people that want their mansions or ferraris or pools or w/e

      In case you haven’t realized, this is why its NOT political suicide. The liberals are NEVER going to convince people that have the “fiber or nothing” attitude, so why bother? Thats like asking the greens to be realistic and impartial about Nuclear Power (lols…..). On the other hand you still have voters that haven’t decided and have better priorities then the NBN

      “I get that the NBN is a big risk, I get that you are worried about the assumptions of the business case, I get that you think Labor are a bunch of whack jobs with no sense on reality. I get that you will do anything, even lie out of your arse at times, to stop them from running the country. I really do get that, I have my misgivings about them too.”

      Thats because politicians are normally stupid people that are good at PR but are horrible when it actually comes to the matter of being responsible because they have no experience in the portfolios they are actually in. Conroy and Rudd are the two biggest nobs I have seen on the planet, Conroys experience with economics/I.T. is zero, and considering what he is saying with regards to the filtering and the NBN, I would put that into a negative. Business’s tend to employ people that actually have experience in the area they are supposed to be working in, try applying for a role in managing a companies finances with no expertise, or an engineer with no degree. Conroy has no experience whatsoever in this area at all (whether economics or I.T., he got through parliament by being a power broker and union leader), where as Turnbull has a lot of experience in economy/finances and some in IT. I would put my holdings onto the latter

      You let business do what they do best, that is business, and you let politicians do what they do best, and thats politics. You set up an environment for business/private enterprise so they can invest thats both beneficial for them and for the community. Thats why every country since the 1980′s (especially in telecommunications) has been privatizing and minimizing government intervention.

      • RS
        Posted 31/01/2011 at 4:02 pm | Permalink |

        @deteego…

        I started reading your latest umm, offering (after your previous, be nice…twaddle) and when you said minimal = zero, I just laughed and thought about your FUDged figures and the Senate forming government, claims you previously made…

        Please, at least get the basics right if you expect to dupe everyone with the big ticket FUD you spread…!

        • deteego
          Posted 31/01/2011 at 4:07 pm | Permalink |

          Are you blind or just missing a few too many brain cells

          != is not the same as =

          != means not equal to, I would recommend you update your knowledge on symbols
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/!%3D

          • RS
            Posted 31/01/2011 at 4:28 pm | Permalink |

            Indeed C++, my apologies.

            See it doesn’t hurt to apologise when you err…!

      • Posted 31/01/2011 at 4:14 pm | Permalink |

        “Do you understand what minimal means?
        Minimal != zero

        The whole point of OPEL was a subsidy for the rural/regional areas of Australia to provide broadband to where the private sector cannot deliver. Thats very different to putting fiber everywhere.”

        And if the private sector has shown that it can’t deliever improved broadband access in the city as well? That is will create blackspots in the city due to RIMs and Pair-Gain that it will leave in place for years without doing anything about it?

        Then obviously, by the same logical you need to subsides in the city as well. You forget here, I support the NBN for a complicated set of reasons, and the fact that is a government owned monoploy isn’t one, the fact it will fix the private industry failing in one large swoop is… I’m willing to do anything that meets that need. OPEL was a great plan, and if it had gone ahead I’m sure we would be happy with it. But it has been shelfed, and the Liberals aren’t considering bringing it back. If they were, we wouldn’t be having this agruement.

        “Countries are mandating speeds, not technologies.”

        And the Liberals are still out of date by that definition too. They aren’t mandating speeds at all. They are still mandating technologies, and the WRONG technologies as well, by private enterprise standards.

        I am not untaking Dichotomy, it is not FIBRE OR NOTHING. How can I put that through your thick skull? I guess you think anyone who supports the NBN must be fibre or nothing and isn’t capable of rational throught right? You’re really starting to annoy me that you are asserting that belief here, because it is plan false.

        “In case you haven’t realized, this is why its NOT political suicide. The liberals are NEVER going to convince people that have the “fiber or nothing” attitude, so why bother? Thats like asking the greens to be realistic and impartial about Nuclear Power (lols…..). On the other hand you still have voters that haven’t decided and have better priorities then the NBN”

        They don’t have to convince us on Fibre or nothing, they have to convince us on their policy. There policy is a patchwork of subsidies and doesn’t do anything to fix the core problems of the industry, it doesn’t mandate minimum speeds (12Mbps “minimum peak speed” I mean WTF is that? So so long as the technology we’re using theortically can achieve 12Mbps we’re good. Nevermind if you only get 64Kbps, nevermind if the average deliever by the technology is less than 12Mbps). And I don’t see them doing anything to change that too better suit the problem? I don’t see them looking to modify the ABG or the USO to mandate minimum service deliever for broadband? What I do see them is investing $6b in blank cheques to the industry and forming a datebase of so that consumers are better aware of what they can get where… it is NOT good enough, no matter how much you try and tell me that the NBN is a crock of shit. I would rather that the government did NOTHING than the policy currently proposed by the Liberals.

        How is that so hard for you to understand? How is it so hard for you to understand that both parties have stuffed up royally here, and so far niether of them have come to the table with a better idea than that $43b plan you loath so much?

        “Turnbull has a lot of experience in economy/finances and some in IT. I would put my holdings onto the latter”

        Then why don’t we get him to write the freaking policy. He’s pushing the party line, nothing more. I know he knows, deep down, that what they ofter isn’t good enough. He is an insult to the IT industry if he has convienced himself otherwise, more of an insult than that idoit Conroy.

        “In case you haven’t realized, this is why its NOT political suicide.”

        Okay, and finally, I don’t think you have been paying attention. Since my reply to your orignal post I have not been agrueing this. I have not agrued that I think getting rid of the NBN will cost the Liberals the next Election. I have not agrued that it will be possible to dismantle the policy. I have however agrued that my problem is quite simple: Then what? Do we spend another term while the politicans debate the options and ask the industry until the Liberals decide they want to do? We we finally get another project underway with promise of actually fixing this problem to have the Oppistion come in and rip it apart?

        I want a Biparstian solution. Because I am tired of watching the two sides argue over it. I would rather they (i.e. both the opposition and governmetn) spent three months away in the room consulting experts and members on the public on the best option, and then coming out and saying “okay, this is what we have come up with, I think you will be pretty happy with it.” And to be honest, if they actually did debate it to death in that room, I will be.

        Please, get your head out of your arse, and actually LISTEN to what I am saying. Don’t place your assumptions on what an NBN supporter is on me, because I don’t fit, I’m not blind, I am not stupid, and I most certianly am not asserting “Fibre or Nothing”.

        • deteego
          Posted 31/01/2011 at 4:43 pm | Permalink |

          “And if the private sector has shown that it can’t deliever improved broadband access in the city as well? That is will create blackspots in the city due to RIMs and Pair-Gain that it will leave in place for years without doing anything about it?”

          Thats due to private companies having to deal with a vertically integrated monopoly. Thats like complaining that private enterprise fails because someone tried to set up a shop in communist Russia. In other words, as I said earlier, the issue is there isn’t a environment where buisness can invest in infrustructure due to Telstra. So you split up Telstra, deregulate some of the crap in there, and set up a proper environment, thats what politicians do. In fact, in telecommunications, in every area APART from last mile, thats what has hapenned. Its because of the private industry that we have unlimited broadband (TPG and PIPE) and its because of ULL/LSS which created a free market at the lowest level that has driven down costs of internet plans every since 2005 (its no coincidence). We just need to go one step further.

          Australia has one of the most interventionist and regulated telecommunications industries in the world due to keeping Telstra as a monpoly (but not really splitting it) which has created this whole wacky situation.

          “And if the private sector has shown that it can’t deliever improved broadband access in the city as well? That is will create blackspots in the city due to RIMs and Pair-Gain that it will leave in place for years without doing anything about it?”
          I don’t know if you realise what RIM’s are, but they haven’t been deployed since the 90′s. Also if you check the Telstra status page and on the whirlpool forums, Telstra has actually upgraded many of the CMUX’s (which is what I assume is what you are talking about). Again in regards to this, its not as simple as “Telstra failing”, there is a whole history behind this and the ACCC and whatnot.

          “I am not untaking Dichotomy, it is not FIBRE OR NOTHING. How can I put that through your thick skull? I guess you think anyone who supports the NBN must be fibre or nothing and isn’t capable of rational throught right? You’re really starting to annoy me that you are asserting that belief here, because it is plan false.”

          No your dichotomy is that you think that a political party that doesn’t shove their asses into the private industry and doesn’t the attitude “screw you guys, we will do it all ourselves” (for obvious reasons as stated before) means that nothing is going to happen. There is a difference between setting up laws and regulations (and fixing current ones) and doing everything yourself

          “They don’t have to convince us on Fibre or nothing, they have to convince us on their policy. There policy is a patchwork of subsidies and doesn’t do anything to fix the core problems of the industry, it doesn’t mandate minimum speeds (12Mbps “minimum peak speed” I mean WTF is that? So so long as the technology we’re using theortically can achieve 12Mbps we’re good. Nevermind if you only get 64Kbps, nevermind if the average deliever by the technology is less than 12Mbps).”
          Turnbull has clarified this, their plan was always minimum 12mbps. He did so on lateline, and on his interview with ZDNet. The original announcement was confusing, I will give you that

          Their policy is to set up a backbone so private industry can actually invest in infrastructure upgrades, this is why they wanted to build a backhaul, as well as mandating speeds (this is what every country is doing). No other country in the world is doing what Telstra is doing, you have to get it into your head that its what Labor is doing that is wacky and nutty, not the coalition.

          You set up FTTNm deregulated the market, and you get what happened in NZ. Average speed there now is ~12 mbits, VDSL2 is already being offered with 60/40 (another reason why we don’t have VDSL2?, because it hasn’t been standardized to be used in Telstra exchanges, so it can’t be used by any ISP’s, again showing how silly Australian telecommunication laws are). http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/06/75-of-new-zealanders-to-get-100mbps-fiber-by-2020.ars
          There is an upgrade path to FTTH as well, with dark fiber being layed down to be installed up to the FTTN nodes when the time comes

          “Then why don’t we get him to write the freaking policy. He’s pushing the party line, nothing more. I know he knows, deep down, that what they ofter isn’t good enough. He is an insult to the IT industry if he has convienced himself otherwise, more of an insult than that idoit Conroy.”
          He can’t, if you read the full AARNet interview he already explained why. The current political scene, especially with NBN is incredibly politicized and volatile. The coalition has no idea if Telstra will actually accept the HOA or not, how far the NBN will ACTUALLY be built etc etc. Why the hell should they write a policy when things are constantly changing every month, you want the coalition to waste taxpayers money writing reports every month. If Telstra never accepts the HOA for example, they will have to completely redo their policy

          Furthermore oppositions always put up their alternative policies around a year (at best) before an election, the election being in 2013. Im not sure if you have an understand of politics, but this is perfectly normal. Just as its perfectly normal for the coalition to oppose and scrutinize the government. The reasons behind this is also obvious. The coalition does not have this attitude of “lets build it ourselves”, thats the complete opposite of what they stand for, and the against the fact that Australia has a free market economy for the past 30 years

          “I want a Biparstian solution. Because I am tired of watching the two sides argue over it. I would rather they (i.e. both the opposition and governmetn) spent three months away in the room consulting experts and members on the public on the best option, and then coming out and saying “okay, this is what we have come up with, I think you will be pretty happy with it.” And to be honest, if they actually did debate it to death in that room, I will be.”
          This is not going to happen, because the Labor government has a “all or none” attitude, and the Coalition doesn’t have a magical crystal ball where they can predict what will happen in the future. This is why oppositions always wait up until a year before the election (at best) in regards to policies that fall into these funny areas.

          You are just going to have to wait

          “Please, get your head out of your arse, and actually LISTEN to what I am saying. Don’t place your assumptions on what an NBN supporter is on me, because I don’t fit, I’m not blind, I am not stupid, and I most certianly am not asserting “Fibre or Nothing”.”
          And I commend that

          • Posted 31/01/2011 at 9:31 pm | Permalink |

            “Thats due to private companies having to deal with a vertically integrated monopoly. Thats like complaining that private enterprise fails because someone tried to set up a shop in communist Russia. In other words, as I said earlier, the issue is there isn’t a environment where buisness can invest in infrustructure due to Telstra. So you split up Telstra, deregulate some of the crap in there, and set up a proper environment, thats what politicians do. In fact, in telecommunications, in every area APART from last mile, thats what has hapenned. Its because of the private industry that we have unlimited broadband (TPG and PIPE) and its because of ULL/LSS which created a free market at the lowest level that has driven down costs of internet plans every since 2005 (its no coincidence). We just need to go one step further.”

            This is, in fact, my preferred solution, coupled with a few billion invested into various infrastructure upgrades and a minimum speed mandate (and if they feel they can get away with it, latency as well, but that might just be pushing it).

            “Australia has one of the most interventionist and regulated telecommunications industries in the world due to keeping Telstra as a monpoly (but not really splitting it) which has created this whole wacky situation.”

            Could not agree more, Telstra are the bane of my existence when it comes to fixed line infrastructure, and I’m just a customer. I would hate to think how other retailers deal with them.

            “I don’t know if you realise what RIM’s are, but they haven’t been deployed since the 90′s. Also if you check the Telstra status page and on the whirlpool forums, Telstra has actually upgraded many of the CMUX’s (which is what I assume is what you are talking about). Again in regards to this, its not as simple as “Telstra failing”, there is a whole history behind this and the ACCC and whatnot.”

            I do know the difference between a RIM and a CMUX, and unfortunately the whole history still doesn’t change the fact there are still customers stuck on RIMs who need to be dealt with, but I personally think that considering the geographic areas they tend to encompass, instead of encouraging RIM to CMUX replacement (which is effectively a FTTN solution) we should in fact be encouraging RIM to GPON migration, but setting up mandates for infrastructure of replacement (this isn’t to say they couldn’t opt for a cheaper option, but only if it fits the mandates).

            “No your dichotomy is that you think that a political party that doesn’t shove their asses into the private industry and doesn’t the attitude “screw you guys, we will do it all ourselves” (for obvious reasons as stated before) means that nothing is going to happen. There is a difference between setting up laws and regulations (and fixing current ones) and doing everything yourself.”

            Actually, again it isn’t. I can understand why you would think that given where this argument has lead, but since you haven’t asked I might as well state what I think needs to be done:

            1) the structural separation of Telstra.
            2) devoicing of the USO from “Telstra Wholesale” such that any provider can bid to meet the USOs in a given area, pending state or local council approval to tender with “Telstra Wholesale” made the defacto provider in the event that alternative bids are not taken (that last part I would replace with anything that will ensure the USO is actually meet, however it seems to simplest way to ensure it).
            3) Upgrading the USO to mean 1.5Mbps/384kbps service or better with a minimum up/down ratio of 20:1 with provision for voice services that are able to contact the emergency services and be aware of the geographic location of the person calling, with requirement to deliver this by the end of 2014, with the ability to upgrade the definition of the USO at a later date. As this is what the majority of homes already recieve under Telstra, I do not think this is wholely unreasonable.
            4) Broadband zoning requirements, where houses and businesses in certain zoning areas much be provisioned for the ability to access at a reasonable cost a service of a particular performance. Basicly this means the government will force upgrades to infrastructure in essential areas, like industrial districts, as well as be able to “raise the bar”, it also acknowledges that sparsely populated areas are more expensive to upgrade than other areas and as such they will likely have worse service, however this does not prevent any provider from exceeding the zoning requirements if they see fit.
            5) Maximum retail costs to deliver a USO compliant service of, ideally, around maximum $40 per month.
            6) Provision within the USO to deliver voice only services for around maximum $20 per month.

            Then various investments in different areas to achieve this. It’s a little rough around the edges, however I think this is better than the current proposal as by the Coaltion, far more sensible than the NBN, and has the ability to to deliver NBN like services to a large percentage of the country if used (or abused) correctly. In fact, it might actually be a little bit conservative and we could set the USO even higher.

            “Turnbull has clarified this, their plan was always minimum 12mbps. He did so on lateline, and on his interview with ZDNet. The original announcement was confusing, I will give you that”

            Most definitely, although I trust you, I would still like to see the transcript if you can provide it?

            “Their policy is to set up a backbone so private industry can actually invest in infrastructure upgrades, this is why they wanted to build a backhaul, as well as mandating speeds (this is what every country is doing). No other country in the world is doing what Telstra is doing, you have to get it into your head that its what Labor is doing that is wacky and nutty, not the coalition.”

            The investment in fixed wireless solutions annoyed me. Would it not be better to invest in any technology that can meet the tender requirement, not specify fixed wireless? Also, both policies involve backhaul improvements. I think everyone acknowledges that is a problem.

            “You set up FTTNm deregulated the market, and you get what happened in NZ. Average speed there now is ~12 mbits, VDSL2 is already being offered with 60/40 (another reason why we don’t have VDSL2?, because it hasn’t been standardized to be used in Telstra exchanges, so it can’t be used by any ISP’s, again showing how silly Australian telecommunication laws are). http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/06/75-of-new-zealanders-to-get-100mbps-fiber-by-2020.ars
            There is an upgrade path to FTTH as well, with dark fiber being layed down to be installed up to the FTTN nodes when the time comes”

            Being a New Zealander, I know how good, generally, we are with politics on infrastructure. With the exception of Rogernomics. That caused similar problems to what you are experiencing with Telstra, for example TranzRail rain our rail network into the ground, as such the entire network, the thousands of kilometres of rail, was brought back by the government for a $1 and they have been spending the last half decade fixing it. I was actually quite impressed with the Crown Fibre design for delivering Broadband.

            “He can’t, if you read the full AARNet interview he already explained why. The current political scene, especially with NBN is incredibly politicized and volatile. The coalition has no idea if Telstra will actually accept the HOA or not, how far the NBN will ACTUALLY be built etc etc. Why the hell should they write a policy when things are constantly changing every month, you want the coalition to waste taxpayers money writing reports every month. If Telstra never accepts the HOA for example, they will have to completely redo their policy”

            Well I would still like to be able to talk to him about options. Can he at least do that?

            “This is not going to happen, because the Labor government has a “all or none” attitude, and the Coalition doesn’t have a magical crystal ball where they can predict what will happen in the future. This is why oppositions always wait up until a year before the election (at best) in regards to policies that fall into these funny areas.

            You are just going to have to wait”

            /pouts

            In seriousness through, I know that isn’t going to happen, I just wish that in politics it happened more often, because we would get less of these debates like the NBN vs whatever-it-is-the-coalition-are-doing-but-it-seems-to-suck debate that we seem to be sitting in the middle off. It’s kinda hard to sit on the fence and watch sometimes, hence why I have been arguing for the NBN, and sometimes, just to confuse everyone, against it too. Because in terms of the technology utilised I think the NBN is the best plan for Australia, but the economic risks are just… well… icky is the best way to describe it.

            “And I commend that”

            Thank you. I apologise if I have been a little brash but I have dealt with “die hard Liberal fans” as I’m sure you have dealt with “die hard NBN/ALP fans” who are quite often very hard to talk to. It’s good to know that under you hostile reactions and posts there is actually a reasonable person there. It makes me think that maybe, just maybe, we can find a middle ground everyone is (un)happy with afterall.

            • deteego
              Posted 01/02/2011 at 1:13 am | Permalink |

              “The investment in fixed wireless solutions annoyed me. Would it not be better to invest in any technology that can meet the tender requirement, not specify fixed wireless? Also, both policies involve backhaul improvements. I think everyone acknowledges that is a problem.”

              There is a difference between investment and fixed wireless everywhere where ADSL2+ cannot deliver speeds. iirc, from the old coalitions plan, the amount (% wise) of the country that they wanted to put on wireless was only slightly higher then Labors. The investment coalition did was for mobile wireless, and the reasons are obvious (along with Telstra). The old coalitions plan did cost around 6 billion in total, around 4 billion of that was for the regional/rural backhaul, all for fixed line internet. This is what their 2007 policy (without Malcolm Turnbull) looked like
              http://www.itnews.com.au/News/224283,election10-how-to-choose-australias-next-broadband-network.aspx.

              The coalitions biggest issue before Malcom was complete lack of communication due to Smith, who was the communications leader at the time

              As for your points
              “1) the structural separation of Telstra.”
              Coalition supports this
              “2) devoicing of the USO from “Telstra Wholesale” such that any provider can bid to meet the USOs in a given area, pending state or local council approval to tender with “Telstra Wholesale” made the defacto provider in the event that alternative bids are not taken (that last part I would replace with anything that will ensure the USO is actually meet, however it seems to simplest way to ensure it).”
              Getting a bit far ahead of ourselves, we have no clue how the USO is going to work out due to the NBN. I do agree it needs to be integrated taking into account other companies that can privately invest. The coalition has no policy on this because they have no clue whats going to happen with Telstra’s seperation/HOA and how that will work out
              “3) Upgrading the USO to mean 1.5Mbps/384kbps service or better with a minimum up/down ratio of 20:1 with provision for voice services that are able to contact the emergency services and be aware of the geographic location of the person calling, with requirement to deliver this by the end of 2014, with the ability to upgrade the definition of the USO at a later date. As this is what the majority of homes already recieve under Telstra, I do not think this is wholely unreasonable.”
              This is again, getting into technicalities, but its not really an issue. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if around 95%+ of people already have such a dedicated CIR for voice services, apart from the few unfortunate souls on those new estates. No real issue with this either
              “4) Broadband zoning requirements, where houses and businesses in certain zoning areas much be provisioned for the ability to access at a reasonable cost a service of a particular performance. Basicly this means the government will force upgrades to infrastructure in essential areas, like industrial districts, as well as be able to “raise the bar”, it also acknowledges that sparsely populated areas are more expensive to upgrade than other areas and as such they will likely have worse service, however this does not prevent ”
              Not needed if you have a proper competitive private industry, this will happen by nature
              “5) Maximum retail costs to deliver a USO compliant service of, ideally, around maximum $40 per month.
              6) Provision within the USO to deliver voice only services for around maximum $20 per month.”
              This could get a bit iffy regarding people in the middle of nowhere on satellites that cost billions of dollars and servicing only a few hundred thousand people at most, will require more thought

              ” instead of encouraging RIM to CMUX replacement (which is effectively a FTTN solution) we should in fact be encouraging RIM to GPON migration, but setting up mandates for infrastructure of replacement (this isn’t to say they couldn’t opt for a cheaper option, but only if it fits the mandates).”
              If you do the FTTN properly (like NZ and many other countries did), then the FTTN cabinets have an upgrade path to FTTH with GPON migration. The CHOIR cabinets in NZ have this option. The whole point of FTTN is it puts a free market on the lowest level possible (i.e. the retail level) which is what produces the best outcome for everyone, both in terms of costs and services delivered

              The other “ultimate” option would of course have been doing a point to point fiber connection from the exchange to the premise, lease it like a ULL is leased currently (no cvc’s, no avc’s, basically the speed that the ISP/RSP’s are willing to provide), and do some smart stuff (like not rip out copper and instead put it into the ONT so it can provide a phone service in power out etc etc)

              Of course that will have massive capital investment (still less then NBN, no stupid agreement with Telstra required), but hell, you could do Tony Abbots version of the robin tax but for the IT/Telecommunications industry to raise the capital, that way you want raise internet prices and nothing bad will happen if it fails since there is no government bonds or tax payers money being used. (see if you want to do FTTH everywhere, thats how you would do that, either that or you would use our surplus, with Labor all blew away anyways, because thats the only way you can guarantee you will not raise internet prices)

              “Thank you. I apologise if I have been a little brash but I have dealt with “die hard Liberal fans” as I’m sure you have dealt with “die hard NBN/ALP fans” who are quite often very hard to talk to. It’s good to know that under you hostile reactions and posts there is actually a reasonable person there. It makes me think that maybe, just maybe, we can find a middle ground everyone is (un)happy with afterall.”
              I also apologize for being a bit brash, but as you understand, these blogs tend to attract such types of people ;)
              Your policies are much more liberal then “labor”. As I said, the reason that liberals don’t have a completely cohesive policy, is because of “political reasons”.
              Here are some interviews you requested
              http://www.zdnet.com.au/malcolm-turns-bullish-on-telstra-split-339307034.htm
              http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/index/id/332
              The full interview this delimiter article completely misquotes
              http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/374831/q_shadow_communications_minister_malcolm_turnbull/
              And here is the quote about the speed being set
              “The approach I would take is identify those areas that do not have satisfactory broadband now, which is a combination of blackspots in the cities and rural and regional areas, and ensure that all of those areas have access to the Internet at speeds comparable to the best speeds in the city, eg ADSL 2+. I guess it’s about 12Mbps or something of that order.”

              “Well I would still like to be able to talk to him about options. Can he at least do that?”
              Of course, send him an email, or check out his blogs
              http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/

            • deteego
              Posted 01/02/2011 at 1:16 am | Permalink |

              “around 4 billion of that was for the regional/rural backhaul, all for fixed line internet. This is what their 2007 policy (without Malcolm Turnbull) looked like”
              Eh sorry, I meant that around 4 billion was meant to be spent for wired, and I meant 2010 and not 2007 ;)

              • Posted 01/02/2011 at 11:07 am | Permalink |

                “There is a difference between investment and fixed wireless everywhere where ADSL2+ cannot deliver speeds. iirc, from the old coalitions plan, the amount (% wise) of the country that they wanted to put on wireless was only slightly higher then Labors. The investment coalition did was for mobile wireless, and the reasons are obvious (along with Telstra). The old coalitions plan did cost around 6 billion in total, around 4 billion of that was for the regional/rural backhaul, all for fixed line internet. This is what their 20[10] policy (without Malcolm Turnbull) looked like”

                Okay, from the page, and the original policy document I think you have got your wires crossed a little bit:

                $2b in fixed wireless. It says clearly fixed in both the policy document, from the article linked:

                “fund $2 billion in grants for fixed wireless services in rural, regional and outer metropolitan areas”

                And hence my problem with the investment. Outer metro, and the majority of people in regional areas (but not rural) would be better serviced by a FTTN solution, and from understanding of the tech it would actually be cheaper to deliever such technology (assuming you plan to meet the 12Mbps mandate). If they had said “$2b to deliever broadband to outer metro, regional, and rural areas by the most cost effective technology” rather than specificing fixed wireless I would be a little bit happier with the clause. I find it ironic therefore that their main selling point is that they “will not pick a technology winner” when clearly, in this case, they are. Granted there was a footnot that said it would consider other technology tenders, however, that shouldn’t be a FOOTNOTE, should it?

                It also isn’t $4 billion in backhaul, it is just under $3b (in the article it says $2.75m but I’m pretty sure that’s a typo), coupled with another $750 million to fix “ADSL backspots”.

                I do get what you are trying to say through, but just to point out, I have read the policy document m’kay? ;)

                “The coalitions biggest issue before Malcom was complete lack of communication due to Smith, who was the communications leader at the time”

                More than that, they didn’t really sell any of the benefits of their policy. I get it, now they’re in opposition they should be opposing, but in the lead up the election it was NBN this, NBN that, NBN will save the world… and all we got from Smith is “no, we need to be more sensiable.” The policy document is, as I said, approximately a third (oh whoops I said two thirds before, typo) “Labor are doing it wrong.”

                “Getting a bit far ahead of ourselves, we have no clue how the USO is going to work out due to the NBN. I do agree it needs to be integrated taking into account other companies that can privately invest. The coalition has no policy on this because they have no clue whats going to happen with Telstra’s seperation/HOA and how that will work out”

                I should point out by this I don’t actually mean modifying the USO. We might be required to form a whole new document, and what is said, naturally, may depend greatly on what happens with the Telstra Deal. The jist of what the I’d call “the telecomiications mandate” however as I pointed out should probably remain similar to what I have specified.

                “Not needed if you have a proper competitive private industry, this will happen by nature”

                Actually I disagree with you here, considering the mess Telstra have left us in we should be doing everything in our power to “springboard” the industry into making upgrades to the current network. If we do it correctly we can just leave the policy in place, or even remove it completely, and watch as the free market upgrades of their own accord, after a decade or so.

                “The other “ultimate” option would of course have been doing a point to point fiber connection from the exchange to the premise, lease it like a ULL is leased currently (no cvc’s, no avc’s, basically the speed that the ISP/RSP’s are willing to provide), and do some smart stuff (like not rip out copper and instead put it into the ONT so it can provide a phone service in power out etc etc)”

                I think you’ll actually find the capital outlay is MORE than NBN prosposal for this, as PON (as opposed to AON, or PtP fibre) is actually a cost reduction measure. But I take your point, that would be a far better option. Of course, to do that will kinda confuse people “wait a second, you’re saying the speed of fibre is pointless and you’re rolling out fibre anyway?!” The only difference of course, as you rightly pointed out, is where you can get the capital from. Using a surplus to do it is far better than using debt.

                “The full interview this delimiter article completely misquotes
                http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/374831/q_shadow_communications_minister_malcolm_turnbull/
                And here is the quote about the speed being set
                “The approach I would take is identify those areas that do not have satisfactory broadband now, which is a combination of blackspots in the cities and rural and regional areas, and ensure that all of those areas have access to the Internet at speeds comparable to the best speeds in the city, eg ADSL 2+. I guess it’s about 12Mbps or something of that order.””

                I wouldn’t say that Renai misquoted him, I’d say he drew a particular piece of conversation and highlighted that point. If you haven’t noticed by the sea of comments we find outselfs in, NBN posts are quite popular and get Renai a lot of activity. Has he slandered or otherwise misrepresented Turnbull? No, I don’t think so.

                And that quote you provided is still not really a confirmation that he is setting a “hard minimum” of 12Mbps, however it is good to know that he is thinking in such a way, because it might be possible for us to get that “hard minimum” from him when he finalises his policy.

                “Of course, send him an email, or check out his blogs”

                I have tweeted him on servral occasions and he his dismissed my points. I think maybe that comes from it being a hostile enviroment through.

                I thank you for your insights, but I don’t think there is anymore to say on the issue. I hope that you have learned something from me, as I have from you.

                • deteego
                  Posted 01/02/2011 at 11:29 am | Permalink |

                  ““fund $2 billion in grants for fixed wireless services in rural, regional and outer metropolitan areas””
                  You have to compare it to Labors. Labor is spending billions on satellites and a slightly lower amount also on fixed wireless. The coalition isn’t any “worse” in this area then Labor, its just that there are a lot of very low density areas that aren’t economical to install fixed line internet to everywhere. Malcolm has made this point clear, he is not installing wireless everywhere or in metro/CBD areas of Sydney, that 2billion is actually meant to service a massive landmass area of Australia. Labor’s NBN is no different to this, they also have ~4% on fixed wireless

                  “Actually I disagree with you here, considering the mess Telstra have left us in we should be doing everything in our power to “springboard” the industry into making upgrades to the current network. If we do it correctly we can just leave the policy in place, or even remove it completely, and watch as the free market upgrades of their own accord, after a decade or so.”
                  Well thats what I meant by a proper competitive environment, it will happen automatically, and to do that you need to fix the Telstra problem

                  “I think you’ll actually find the capital outlay is MORE than NBN prosposal for this, as PON (as opposed to AON, or PtP fibre) is actually a cost reduction measure. But I take your point, that would be a far better option. Of course, to do that will kinda confuse people “wait a second, you’re saying the speed of fibre is pointless and you’re rolling out fibre anyway?!” The only difference of course, as you rightly pointed out, is where you can get the capital from. Using a surplus to do it is far better than using debt.”
                  The capital would be slightly higher (10% according to wikipedia) but there is no Telstra deal, and furthermore it is actually future proof, there is no shared systems or PON’s that need to be replacing (no GPON’s, etc etc). Its the exact same as our current system, just instead of copper last mile you have fiber. Even regarding that capital, it might even be the same. A point to point requires more cabling, however optical fiber cable is very cheap, however on the upside you don’t need to install any PON type systems, or upgrade them in the future

                  Also you would sell it properly, not in terms of speed, but the fact that with a Point to Point fiber service means that no future upgrades of the network is required, ISP’s can offer an equal service regardless of distance, and there is no shared system where the ISP’s would only have to provide the necessary backhaul

                  Also I would only support such a thing if whatever company gets the funds (either NBNCo or Telstra Wholesale or w/e) would not be expected to pay off the capital like NBNCo is, since its being set up as a financial company. Those CVC/AVC prices that NBNCo is charging are extortionate. A lot of my friends (who are in this industry) were supportive of the NBN, but when they saw those CVC prices they immediately changed their minds. Its common sense, NBNCo paying off ~38 billion dollar capital where as our current network has the capital completely sunk in cost (i.e. its zero). Thats why it would have to be off surplus or the IT companies that are supposed to profit off it so massively cough up some money. At least the IT companies would be putting their money where their mouth is, if they think the NBN is the best thing since sliced bread.

                  If the NBN ever gets through, its highly likely that I will lose TPG’s unlimited internet unless TPG doubles their market share

                  “I wouldn’t say that Renai misquoted him, I’d say he drew a particular piece of conversation and highlighted that point. If you haven’t noticed by the sea of comments we find outselfs in, NBN posts are quite popular and get Renai a lot of activity. Has he slandered or otherwise misrepresented Turnbull? No, I don’t think so.”
                  Sorry I didn’t mean misquoted, I meant the part he didn’t quote. Relai really needs to add support for editing

                  “And that quote you provided is still not really a confirmation that he is setting a “hard minimum” of 12Mbps, however it is good to know that he is thinking in such a way, because it might be possible for us to get that “hard minimum” from him when he finalises his policy.”
                  You would have to watch the interviews, I can’t really remember where. Its evident he is talking about a minimum (as you have pointed out). He probably can’t make a hard minimum, because we are dealing with ADSL2+, but its evident that he wants to put the whole country on speeds of 12mbit with a discrepancy here and there

                  “More than that, they didn’t really sell any of the benefits of their policy. I get it, now they’re in opposition they should be opposing, but in the lead up the election it was NBN this, NBN that, NBN will save the world… and all we got from Smith is “no, we need to be more sensiable.” The policy document is, as I said, approximately a third (oh whoops I said two thirds before, typo) “Labor are doing it wrong.””
                  Guess what a political trump card is, the coalition can’t sell their policy because the Labor has supersized and completely blown out of their proportion, it gets all the media attention (as you have just stated) and whenever comparisons are made it creates a dichotomy like situation. This is why the opposition is constantly attacking the NBN, because it is incredibly easy to do so, because the Labor government has exploded the NBN to such a size where its incredibly easy to attack since it has so many weakness’s. The effects are already seen in this poll
                  http://delimiter.com.au/2011/02/01/scrap-the-nbn-to-pay-for-floods-28-percent-say-yes/
                  I know you would like the coalition to be more cohesive and open to their policy, but if you look at it politically, that would be suicide. Even the upsizing of the NBN from FTTN to FTTH happened so suddenly (like 1 week before election)
                  When Labor had the 5 billion dollar FTTN tender, coalition didn’t attack it at all, in fact there was lukewarm support for it

                • deteego
                  Posted 01/02/2011 at 11:37 am | Permalink |

                  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/nbn-caught-in-political-divide-the-world-according-to-malcolm-turnbull/story-e6frgakx-1225997687643

                  There is another link where he states the minimum mandated speed should be 12mbit down, 1mbit up

                  “You have to be wary of Soviet-style solutions where you want everybody to have exactly the same thing. I’d rather let the market work it out but you do need some minimum benchmarks.

                  What should they be?

                  I think that’s around the 12-20Mbps download and 1-2Mbps upload. That would be more than adequate for the vast majority of people.”

                  • Hugh
                    Posted 01/02/2011 at 11:40 am | Permalink |

                    will this be sufficient for 3D interactive porn which will be available in Europe in the next few years?

                    • Posted 01/02/2011 at 1:41 pm | Permalink |

                      I take then Hugh you are one of the few people who are against ANY intervention in the Broadband market, not even sensiable intervention like me and deteego have been discussing.

                      *rolls eyes*

                      • Hugh
                        Posted 01/02/2011 at 1:46 pm | Permalink |

                        Sorry did you say something? Im distracted by a photo of Malcom Turnbull, and thoughts of 3D porn….

                        but seriously, wasnt there some cheap prototype proposed at some stage which was far more feasible and only cost about $60,000,000?
                        Frankly anything that comes from the Labor Party, much less ACMA and Senator Conroy’s office is hardly worth my time contemplating.

                    • Posted 01/02/2011 at 2:03 pm | Permalink |

                      I see you there Hugh :)

    16. Hugh
      Posted 31/01/2011 at 4:11 pm | Permalink |

      Malcom Turnbull – can you get any better? NO! You’re wonderful.
      A technology at its infancy, by the time the NBN would be finished (at such a huge cost) a newer cheaper version of the same infrastructure and technology would be available.

      Go back to ELY Conroy.




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