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“But when you did a bit”, I’m assuming that should be “dig a bit”?
I doubt they would even replace it with new copper, more likely they will just dump you on the Fixed Wireless.
NB: Did not read the entire article, I would subscribe if there was a month to month option, the yearly is just too much for me these days.
FttN areas just can’t suddenly become fixed wireless so dumping folk with bad copper onto a wireless tower won’t work. Getting the necessary towers in and built would be a serious undertaking. (sheer number of towers needed is why wireless in general isn’t a replacement etc).
I second that idea. Monthly option would be great.
12 Month sub Too rich for me too, not saying it’s not worth it though.
If you look at the CPP of wireless vs FTTH they won’t be doing much substituting with wireless or satellite.
Exchange side copper goes under NBNCo’s FTTN model (unlike BT and Chorus) so there’s much less copper. Only the pillar to home remain. Yes some of this copper will be remediated, possible a few lines replaced.
What we will see is the complete disintegration of the FTTN arguement we’ve been reading for years from the fanboys. Of course no apology will be given, as in the past they’ll move onto another dubious position.
Telstra’s CAN is in good shape, generating billions in revenue per year. Far more than NBNCo fibre network.
Richard, you have a great future in comedy
Speaking of comedy I remember the “brisbane line” post. A classic.
“Yes some of this copper will be remediated, possible a few lines replaced.”
You might be right you could be 100m from the pillar and as long as your copper can deliver a 1 sec in a day 25Mbps there is no remediation required or copper replaced.
“What we will see is the complete disintegration of the FTTN arguement [sic] we’ve been reading for years from the fanboys. Of course no apology will be given, as in the past they’ll move onto another dubious position.”
Hmmm, I haven’t seen one so called “fanboy” change anything and with good reason.
But I continually see the blinkered, bean counter, ultra conservatives, forever tweaking their BS and ignoring reality … without apology and worse with a straight face. Yes ideology + stupidity = FttN/MTM and this beats reality in their blinkered, plastic bubble world.
Telstra CAN is in good shape? Proof?
Been all around Australia and had a look eh? No neither have I. But here’s just one from a “Senate inquiry” in 2003 (of course refuted when they were in used car salesman mode and selling the old bomb)…
And yes they patch it to bare minimum and keep making $B’s… which is all that matters to far right bean counters eh? Whereas the “fanboys” want and expect better for all Australian’s and (read) future Australians, gee even for blinkered, far right, bean counters and their families.
Don’t ever change Richard. Keep believing in copper! It’s amazing.
“What we will see is the complete disintegration of the FTTN arguement we’ve been reading for years from the fanboys.”
No. No we wont. There is no argument to disintegrate. Turnbull did not pick copper because it was better, but because of lobbying and a deep-seated belief it was the only option (after his entire party spent years attempting to destroy the NBN).
Also most average joes aren’t likely to suddenly fall back in love with copper. The only people who love it, are those with vested interests, or buy into the lie that it’s the “cheaper” way to get to fibre.
Everyone else has moved on. And many are now starting to realise that FTTN is just putting off the inevitable.
Rubbish Richard. Please go back to the Senate Committee hearings of late 2013. There was an inquiry into broadband. Two union officials gave evidence. They both work with the copper CAN on a daily basis in the pits. You will find their testimony damning. Basically both said that Telstra [1] has done no copper CAN maintenance since 1999 and [2] Telstra does not know the state of its own copper CAN network.
Richard you have not got the faintest idea what you are talking about. To make a claim that “Telstra’s CAN is in good shape” shows that whoever you are you are not involved in any way with the coalface of Telstra’s physical structure.
Oh brother.. it’s a disgrace..
wow. just wow. they really don’t care about future proofing at all. so much ideology in play. Why pay for new copper when new fiber is the same cost and has vastly lower maintenance fees. jesus
so much ideology in play. Why pay for new copper when new fiber is the same cost and has vastly lower maintenance fees.
Indeed. They are on a crusade to prove copper can do it, they cant do that if they do something sensible like replace it with fibre.
I’m with Hubert on this one. I live in 6VIC-10, and I will never know if our copper is good bad or ugly, ‘cos the fiber has just whizzed past my house.
But I do note that changing from Amnet to iiNet gave me a significant increase in stability and speed, using the same (?) ADSL2+ naked line. My router reports these numbers: Up: 863925 Down: 4073406 SNR: 9 Loop Att: 51
And I’m sure I could get some improvement with some tweeking, even at 4++K’s from the exchange.
Looking at the amount of work in laying ¿How many kilometers? of fiber, then all the pre-service testing, etc, etc, I can understand that rolling out new copper in a few sections may be very tempting, even if we use thicker wire than Telstra did.
Of course fiber is better, but the last-mile copper does have superficial attractions.
Gordon.
The worst ideological crusade since the Khmer Rouge had their “Year Zero” program and tried to get water to flow uphill.
What do you mean? It’s right there on the Independent CBA (yeah try saying that with a straight face) pg14
Where it’s “economically ‘future proof'” since we can just “pay more to upgrade” if “the need arises” and the “faster roll out” means we’re already taking advantage of the “benefits”
So in a nutshell it makes sense money wise to put off the cost later and use the same money to build a half assed job which can be upgraded for the “future” making it “future proof”..
… can someone please hit these idiots w/ those giant hard cover dictionaries and tell them to take grade school English classes again? Seeing as they think using a “word” in their own twisted context will magically mean what their saying is “correct”
“What we have found is that the copper is actually in far better shape than what a lot of people believe.”
Which explains why in trial areas it appears some have had multiple visits to get the outcomes being bandied about as success, in order to legitimise the service – right? Cool. Glad we had that conversation.
I don’t doubt some of the copper is okay. I also don’t doubt some of it is in truly awful state. But the problem is, to get profitability out of nodes, they will want to hit a user-per-node ratio that makes it profitable.
So, new copper will quite likely go in to shore up numbers on a node, rather than drop in a fibre tails on an adhoc basis (which is likely now far more expensive, because the economies of scale afforded by running dozens of pairs in a single trench don’t now exist).
On the one hand, you have to expect NBNco will try and maximise value in the deployment; they’re supposed to. But the distortion this brings to the notion of a future upgrade, is quite hard to ignore.
“But the problem is, to get profitability out of nodes, they will want to hit a user-per-node ratio that makes it profitable. ”
This particularly falls down when you consider the distances between suburbs in outer burbs or hobbiest area’s. Hearing of 2 users or a dozen per node and even then the distances are still pretty large.
With NG GPON2 being 10Gbps and at 40km (I know its only just been ratified) really does make a mockery of MTM.
It was also stated at one of the NBN senate hearings early this year or late last year that they would roll out NEW coax in HFC areas if required…
…getting beyond a joke now…
They really bought into Malcolm’s thought bubble hey.
They were brought in precisely for the purpose of buying into Malcolm’s thought-bubble. There was no other possible outcome.
Surely there is a darker element to this. When in the MTM copper is found to be shot, will people in marginal seats be more likely to get better outcomes???
That was what was great about 93% FTTP under Labor: it was apolitical.
Right;-)
Remind us of the first rollout areas.
Ok succinctly, I’ll remind you of the overall roll outs…
The original plan, was slightly behind NBNCo’s “own aggressive targets” (shh don’t mention Telstra or asbestos, unless it’s within the last 12 months) having set up absolutely everything from scratch and on budget – in giving Australia a world-class comms network. Ooh they also arranged for satellites, which were derided by MT, which MT is now beating his chest taking credit for (just like the FttP he and Bilson are also taking credit for)…
But I digress
As opposed to this woefully inadequate “faster, cheaper” mess, so far behind it’s sadly laughable and which just blew out by $15B… in giving Australia an obsolete, third class, network.
Now new copper… speaking of comedy as did Abel, ROFL (as is the rest of the world at us).
Not really surprised.
It was alluded to in Senate Hearings from memory, and is even mentioned in the Corp Plan 2016 (Pg 29):
“The copper network will be constructed and maintained on a like-for-like construction basis i.e. replacement of aerial routes with aerial and underground with underground where cables are replaced.”
They also admitted in a Senate hearing that they would use satellite for premises in FTTN areas if the copper wasn’t adequate to cover everyone in area.
which is abominable as those satellites are desperately need for those out bush that cannot get anything else.
School over the air …. well as long as its not Liberal or National party air you might get it to work!
And they expect us to believe they really aren’t anti-FTTP. In what world does it make sense to replace copper with copper? If you were going to go to the effort of pulling replacement technology through a pit, there is no difference between pulling fibre and copper. The FTTP connections to customers can be done pretty quickly. The are ding PCD installs in our area at the moment and they are flying through them. FTTP will last much longer into the future, and will be a better investment in any calculation over the long term – which is where NBN Co should be looking. The lack of vision from this government is appalling, and it has foisted onto NBN Co. Australia will be laggards for decades thanks to the decisions being made now. Its seriously dumb.
And they expect us to believe they really aren’t anti-FTTP. In what world does it make sense to replace copper with copper?
A few things really:
1. The noise when the press gets wind of 1 customer having 1Gbps and next door only having 25Mbps – or worse.
2. The noise when the neighbour A gets wind that neighbour B has 1Gbps and rings the press, rightly pissed off.
2.a The reduced $$$ when neighbour A talks neighbour B into WIFI repeating/broadcasting and sharing with neighbour A.
2.b The really reduced $$$ when neighbour’s C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K all figure out that if they share they could get an average of 100Mbps (4x faster than the current FTTN figures) for the price of 1 Gbps connection.
2.c Add another 10 neighbours and we are still at an average of 50Mbps – twice as fast as the current FTTN
The only way replacing copper with fibre works, in the short term, is to replace an entire street or area. Then most people will just happily migrate from current DSL service to the NBN without talking to their neighbours about it.
1 customer having 1Gbps and next door only having 25Mbps? They are already deploying some FTTP. Therefore, this is a problem whether they do remediation or not.
Wifi rebroadcasting? This can work for 1-2 neighbours, but not for a significant number. It will require hardware savvy. Additionally, 40m maximum range of any serious speed will preclude many neighbours.
40 metres?
While it is the press coverage of pissed off consumers they fear most, by deploying fibre to a single premise (more than likely a tech head as they will know why and how to complain) it will drive community nets.
I’ve been playing around with kit for a while now, I reckon for a little over $100 per house, I could redistribute to 10 houses around me easily.
I think you have a serious problem with the understanding of how cable is replaced.. If it is replaced, every house along that line is getting the “upgrade”. If they were to just replace 1 cable to 1 house from the line it is still connecting to copper and well, thats just not how it works.
Especially when even Turnbull agrees, fibre to the node is at best stop gap measure. All seem to believe it will need to be replaced within a decade or two. May meet needs of now but not 2020.
I remember reading a senate hearing last year with Addock saying if only single copper is faulty they will fix or replace it with new copper. If the whole area is faulty they would do fibre
Yes, well Mr Broadband promised that faulty copper would be replaced with Fibre in the run up to the election. He said it several times.
he also said it would cost $29B and be done by 2016. He said a lot of thing that weren’t true
did he actually say anything that was truthful?
I am thinking, thinking, second thought I’ll get back to you
Yes he said Tony Abbott had his full loyalty…
Oh wait.
It was Morrow
National Broadband Network Select Committee
11/07/2014
Page 45
Mr Morrow: If one home in the neighbourhood has an aerial lead-in dropping down to house that is defective but the rest of the copper is adequate within the neighbourhood, then we are going to do fibre to the node. It is cheaper to replace the lead-in from the pole to the customer’s home.
I’m seeing the word copper so much now that it needs to be banned. In this age, the only thing copper is still good for is my kettle cord. I hope these clowns are not serious about replacing old copper with new copper otherwise this will end up costing more than going all FTTP.
It already close to if not already costing more than FTTP
If you also consider the loss of the high speed plan revenues, maintenance and running cost of the node’s and copper and economic losses it is already way more expensive and we have not even considered the cost of upgrading to FTTP (the endgame) by the time FTTN is finished (if ever) as it will be obsolete by the time it is build.
yeah I mean currently on whirlpool who signed up for 100/40 plans are already planning to downgrade as their line doesn’t even get close.
I’d wager on FttN there’s going to be little to no 100/40 plans that get ordered and are kept for that reason and I bet its really going to hurt their budget next year too. No high end users to cross subsidise and they’re under pressure to lower prices as well!
And conservative Peeps will cite the lack of 100/40 plans being purchased on FTTN and claim the demand for higher speed internet just isn’t there, justifying the investment in MTM and not FTTP.
The good thing about the downward spiral, you are always just about to turn the corner.
We should all protest by disconnecting the UTP patch cables from all of our equipment and burning the wretched 20th century things in a big pile, copper, blerch what a dirty word, good for absolutely nothing, clearly! Ok now that I have that out of my system, HFC areas that need new tails could be replaced/filled in with RFoG.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of your comment as far as lines go, copper is absolutely necessary for all electronic devices. Without it, we would not be communicating now.
Cost blowouts just to avoid fibre ! They really want to stifle things and keep people offline as much as possible !
They can get stuffed. I will pay the thousands to get fibre. At least my connection will be staying up while the rest will be offline. That is why people should oppose completely and blockade if you will.
If I wasn’t planning to move away to further my career and live in a place that’s more me (*not* this beachside suburb), I would be seriously looking at FOD. This is in spite of the fact that the copper here is fairly good, judging by my line over 9 years and the heat map on adsl2exchanges. I really don’t want to be part of this exercise in national mediocrity called FTTN.
The last time I read anything about that option I believe you paid to lay the fibre but when completed it was handed over to the NBN Co (or Telstra) and you had to pay an exorbitant amount in monthly rent to use it.
If that has changed it would be awesome as I was considering it if the NBN was ever rolled out in my area.
That’s how FOD works for BT in the UK.
NBN won’t release any info on there FOD
Telstra doesn’t even want to touch it. They killed fibre, delayed everything and only trying to find people willing to deal with the mess that Telstra has left us with. They will not find people willing to be skilled in copper watch !
I’ve got wind by an electrical trader. He believes the cable pipes are cracked they will be having a hard time laying the fibre too.
If I have to repeat myself again and again vote the bastards out at the next election, that’s the only solution and tell everyone one you know to vote them out.
While the NBNCo are at it, they can install steam powered ss (step by step) exchanges too.
When I was in Telstra in the 1990’s the field techs were complaining then, that “the copper network is shot”, their words and I will believe them over Turnbull and his NBN cronies.
The only way to fix this mess, is fibre.
(The only way to fix this mess, is fibre.) true but to do that you first have to vote the bastards out and get labor to do it because this current government refuses to accept the facts because they are politically motivated, Labor accepted the facts and came to the conclusion that fibre was the future.
Labor have said they won’t. MTM is locked in and attempting to change yet again is just another 3 years and Billions of more tax payers $ wasted. Possibly the replacement copper sillyness will go away with a change of government but most stuff has been locked down sadly.
Yes, there will be certain aspects of the MTM that Labor won’t be able to undo but by having Labor in government we have a better chance of INCREASING THE FIBRE FOOTPRINT not reinventing the comms wheel, this current government last time reduced the fibre footprint again, I think from 24% to 20%. Labor has a reputation for negotiating, they will listen to the people they aren’t arrogant like Turnbull and say when petitioned with hundreds of thousands of signatures “democracy has spoken end of story”. What he is saying is one day every 3 years its a democracy and the other 1095 its a dictatorship, you only have to look a the Same Sex Marriage issue, the majority of people agree with it and the coalition want to delay it and spend 160 million of our money on a plebiscite. I know its a completely different issue but the stupidity remains the same
I would hazard that only the remediation parts are likely to change under labor (ie if its borked roll fibre not anything else instead of this Cu bs). The prime contractor contracts are locked in for 6 years so the foot prints won’t change that much.
If Howard had separated the arms of Telstra when sold, we would have fibre to the premises now. Howard tried how many times, some 17 I believed to get high speed broadband up. All failed. Getting Telstra out of the picture, is what held Labor up, added to the cost.
NBNCo was the only possible way to go. History proved no other worthwhile option was available. Turnbull’s effort has added to this proof.
You are absolutely correct. Alston as communications minister stuffed that up.
If there is a Royal Commission called into this miss-management of the NBN sometime down the track.
That would be 3 in a row for Bill Morrow… Time to retire before you get caught Billy boy.
*facepalm*
Where is Richard when you need him? I’ve been told multiple times in other comments threads by him that NBN Co wouldn’t possibly new copper if the copper isn’t up to scratch, and other technologies would be used.
i think he got upset with me when i called him out on the y28 FTTP complete date when its not Labor date but if they had to stop everything now and move back to FTTP. Then i pointed out that now the Strategic Review that he loved to use so much that scenario 2 was only $8B more and finish 1 year later than MTM.
Drop in from time to time, travelling Iran at the moment.
Jason you point confused the completion time in the SR with the revised timeline in CP15. Look at either in their own (or any other published experience) FTTN is faster than FTTH.
They won’t be running substantial new copper. Yes some remediation might require a small amount of replacement. The amount is insignificant for a project of this size. As NBNCo has already stated where copper isn’t useable they’ll overbuild with fibre.
Richard So what i cant compare apples with apples.
I am comparing a
cost of $56B and complete by Y22 MTM CP15
cost of $64B and complete by Y23 FTTP SR
You wanted in the SR compared a complete date or y21 for FTTN and a not finished FTTP.
Yes FTTN is faster so far by only a year. So far the cost as almost equaled FTTP again $8b difference. But then that $8 difference is over shadow by the OPEX cost of FTTN which makes its even more costly than FTTP is now.
Jason read the documents SR13p17, CP16p39.
They cant make it any clearer. As posted to Gregory no industry figure believes FTTN and FTTH are close in cost nor time to rollout. You are foolish to post they are. As ridiculous as your 25mbps 1 sec per day.
Yes Richard
SR13p17 has Senario 2 FTTP roolout at $64B and complete by Y23
CP16p39 Has an FTTP if they had to stop MTM restart FTTP
latest senate hearing
Mr Morrow: As Mr Rue said earlier, there was no request that said, ‘If you went back in time, hypothetically,
from 2013, and if you kept going with an all-FTTP fixed-line footprint, what would the number be?’ We were not
asked to do that. The question by the government was, ‘If we were to look at moving right now back to an FTTP
environment, what would the number be?’
Richard
NBN Co Ethernet Bitstream
Service
Wholesale Broadband Agreement
12 Speeds, performance and availability
12.1 Speeds of Ordered Products
(a) References to download and upload speeds (PIR and CIR) in this Product Description are to
Layer 2 speeds, including where those speeds are expressed as a range, are references to the
maximum data throughput that the NBN Co Network is designed to make available to Customer at the UNI used to serve the relevant Premises, and not the minimum data throughput. For example, where the PIR is expressed as a range for a particular bandwidth
profile:
(i) the maximum data throughput at the UNI used to serve the relevant Premises may
peak anywhere in that range; and
(ii) may reach a PIR within that range only once during a 24 hour period.
So Richard are you calling NBN foolish as its there own document and the PIR is 25Mbps.
GimpCo setting the bar low. As low as they can possibly go.
Everything backwards in the coalition clown world.
The speed you need is the speed you get once a day.
Chernobyl class clusterfuck.
@jason
Right, bitstream service across all technologies. Peak vs committed information rates. Read traffic classes.
Take some time to understand the documents you see quoted by bloggers, most never worked in IT (just write about).
downstream Mbps (PIR) AVC TC-4 upstream Mbps (PIR)
12/1 FTTB and FTTN
25/5 FTTB and FTTN
25/5 – 10* FTTB and FTTN
25 – 50*/5 – 20* FTTB and FTTN
25 – 100*/5 – 40* FTTB and FTTN
FTTP
12/1
25/5 25/10
50/20
100/40
Yep Richard so if your 100/40 FTTN/FTTb connection gets 25Mbps for 1 second in a day there is nothing wrong with your connection but if your FTTP 100/40 doesnt get 100Mbps for 1 sec in a day there is something wrong with your connection.
If the copper is so good as your claim they should need this disclaimer
The speeds actually experienced by Customer, Downstream Customers and End Users will vary and depend upon a number of factors including:
the quality of any existing Line, bridge-taps
Richard
Well lets compare the the CP15
We have a MTM cos $56B complete Y22
Now CP15 sates for FTTP if they have to stop and start FTTP again it would cost $86B and complete Y26-Y28.
Now we now the $15B increase cost is from switching to MTM so we can scratch that off the cost. We also they have been taking 2 year to switch to MTM so we can scratch that out. Plus we can asume that since its taken 2 year to switch to MTM it would take another 2 year to switch back to FTTP. So that 4 total year scratched off.
So looking at the FTTP would cost $72B can be complete around Y22-Y24 so the only real difference is $15B
I’m genuinely happy you are travelling and starting to enjoy your twilight years Richard:)
Say hi to Syd for me too ;)
It’s just a shame you wish mediocrity, in relation to comms, upon the rest of us and especially those who will come after you? Because like FttP now, in these mystical future years you speak of when FttP is actually required (as you have said, to argue FttP isn’t needed yet) and can then be built, I bet even as it eventually smacks these blinkered naysayers in the face, there will still be “Richard’s” (no pun intended) out there telling us FttN is good enough and only fanboys would want better.
Ah, the blinkered conservative wheel of misfortune continues eh?
Enjoy your trip :)
@rizz you won’t have to worry about your career path following mine.
Iran was fantastic, thanks.
Oh Richard I have a career path… one you could only dream about…
And I don’t have to count fkn cars or skite about being a bean counter, which is why I laugh (out loud literally), heartily every time you look down at me without foundation :)
Again I reiterate as I did some 5 years ago, you or your’s would have one of my products at your/their place but I don’t yours…!
So please continue to believe one’s empty superiority …
We all got f$%ked in the ass by the Lieberals mostly by Mal, it’s done now no matter how much you all want to whinge and bitch, it’s not going to change anything, even Labor wont change anything when/if they get back in at the next election. We lost, get over it.
Negative. If a node isn’t down then there’s hope.
You can call it negative, ill call it realistic.
You actually need to do something if you want to make a change.
I’m a member of my local council, and I’ve got them talking about it. We’ve already submitted a quote for a technology change in our area.
Yes it will be in the millions, at least it’s a start :)
Talking is doing something: it’s called democracy!
No sign of FTTN coming to my address, so there’s hope for FTTH yet.
I like your logic.
Contracts have been signed with prime contractor’s folks and the Libs are spending millions training people in copper tech.
My mate was seeing fibre laid in his street outside and getting NBN fibre letters. The money ran out (his sub area removed from map) and he has since been informed (congratulated) that he will be on the HFC instead. If he’s not getting H I doubt others will. Funny thing is his Foxtel connection is via a dish :D and not the street cable (he can’t get cable internet).
At least he can get rid of the dish once he gets HFC.
The point is, NBNCo doesn’t seem to really know where the usable HFC finishes and the unusable begins. And at this pace, it seems like they don’t want to know until after any election.
They will find out and that will be labour-intensive, therefore expensive. We’re talking about cabling that was laid up to 20 years ago. Bury anything for 20 years and it will be rough (except fibre). Fun and games and we have ringside seats. There are lots of eyes in those suburbs and people talk. Hee hee
HFC was an aerial deployment.
Interesting point MDUs; FTTB? They can’t get back involved with the strata issue (foxtel and optus bypassed, NBNCo service class zero). But this disaster likely to repaet the same errors.
Richard,
Some HFC cable is aerial, and some (mainly Telstra) is via Telstra ducts.
Some strata complexes have HFC cable backbone installed.
Once again, your knowledge is flawed.
I wonder if that’s because people LIKE ME ( In Brisbane Metro) disconnected the copper 5 years ago after 12 plus years of intermittent copper faults ?. The ones remaining are less likely to disconnect if they have perfect copper
Demand for Copper is down and the miners are struggling with low prices, a brilliant innovation to support our heroic foreign owned miners and cable makers
What I still don’t understand is that since the point is to get the best sale price after the installation is finished going cheap and nasty will attract a price to match so why not go full fibre to get the price to match at sale.
Replacing bad copper with fibre will naturally increase the sale price due to the increased potential return and lower ongoing running costs and maintenance.
Because NBN has (ironically) nothing to do with internet access, value or ROI.
It’s a political expedient. Labor used it to bolster their position, when it became apparent they didn’t have the stones to forcibly separate Telstra’s infrastructure and retail businesses. LNP used it to bash from opposition (and then happily be lobbied on what to do). Both have decided to ignore the market that knows what works, in favour of taking a crack at it themselves.
Granted the market was happy to not build itself into financial oblivion, and there are vested interests – but to mostly ignore the decades of combined knowledge was exceedingly foolish.
A bit like chewy ‘flying casual’ submissions were requested, and then mostly ignored. Must be seen to be consulting, of course.
Whatever NBNco and the network might have been, is now a moot point. It will be a decade or more before anyone even considers what to do about the current cluster-fuck – assuming anyone even wants to.
Even Labor realises now, there’s nothing left to salvage. Better to leave it as a coalition legacy, something to be derided I am sure.
Telstra’s lack of interest in the infrastructure build, frankly, is very telling – they got out of the copper game, once it was realised the government was going to do whatever the hell it wanted anyway.
Sol Trujilio may have raged on, but it’s clear the board saw the writing on the wall. No certainty to invest in. Nothing to gain in a network they can’t control.
So here we are. A patchwork quilt controlled by vested interests, lobbyists and most frighteningly, politicians.
More concerning is this ‘project’ needs to raise debt to finish itself. I guess its going to have to rely on the countries AAA rating because I doubt any kind of decent deal is going to get done otherwise.
I mean if you were given the choice of what to invest in the original NBN or this MTM mess for the same % return …. well even the PM hasn’t chosen his own mess!
My biggest frustration with copper is the pit placement.
We live in a row of terraces. And each terrace has old school drain pipes running off both stories, down onto the footpath.
And where did they install the Pits? right under the drain pipes, right on the border of the blue stone foundation.
1 – they get flooded every time it rains.
2 – they undermine the bluestone foundations (the terraces slowly fall twoard the pit cracking the front of the houses.
Not unique to our suburb. happening to many terraces in inner city Melbourne.
Sigh.
“But when you did a bit”, I’m assuming that should be “dig a bit”?
I doubt they would even replace it with new copper, more likely they will just dump you on the Fixed Wireless.
NB: Did not read the entire article, I would subscribe if there was a month to month option, the yearly is just too much for me these days.
FttN areas just can’t suddenly become fixed wireless so dumping folk with bad copper onto a wireless tower won’t work. Getting the necessary towers in and built would be a serious undertaking. (sheer number of towers needed is why wireless in general isn’t a replacement etc).
I second that idea. Monthly option would be great.
12 Month sub Too rich for me too, not saying it’s not worth it though.
If you look at the CPP of wireless vs FTTH they won’t be doing much substituting with wireless or satellite.
Exchange side copper goes under NBNCo’s FTTN model (unlike BT and Chorus) so there’s much less copper. Only the pillar to home remain. Yes some of this copper will be remediated, possible a few lines replaced.
What we will see is the complete disintegration of the FTTN arguement we’ve been reading for years from the fanboys. Of course no apology will be given, as in the past they’ll move onto another dubious position.
Telstra’s CAN is in good shape, generating billions in revenue per year. Far more than NBNCo fibre network.
Richard, you have a great future in comedy
Speaking of comedy I remember the “brisbane line” post. A classic.
“Yes some of this copper will be remediated, possible a few lines replaced.”
You might be right you could be 100m from the pillar and as long as your copper can deliver a 1 sec in a day 25Mbps there is no remediation required or copper replaced.
“What we will see is the complete disintegration of the FTTN arguement [sic] we’ve been reading for years from the fanboys. Of course no apology will be given, as in the past they’ll move onto another dubious position.”
Hmmm, I haven’t seen one so called “fanboy” change anything and with good reason.
But I continually see the blinkered, bean counter, ultra conservatives, forever tweaking their BS and ignoring reality … without apology and worse with a straight face. Yes ideology + stupidity = FttN/MTM and this beats reality in their blinkered, plastic bubble world.
Telstra CAN is in good shape? Proof?
Been all around Australia and had a look eh? No neither have I. But here’s just one from a “Senate inquiry” in 2003 (of course refuted when they were in used car salesman mode and selling the old bomb)…
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674351979.html
And yes they patch it to bare minimum and keep making $B’s… which is all that matters to far right bean counters eh? Whereas the “fanboys” want and expect better for all Australian’s and (read) future Australians, gee even for blinkered, far right, bean counters and their families.
Don’t ever change Richard. Keep believing in copper! It’s amazing.
“What we will see is the complete disintegration of the FTTN arguement we’ve been reading for years from the fanboys.”
No. No we wont. There is no argument to disintegrate. Turnbull did not pick copper because it was better, but because of lobbying and a deep-seated belief it was the only option (after his entire party spent years attempting to destroy the NBN).
Also most average joes aren’t likely to suddenly fall back in love with copper. The only people who love it, are those with vested interests, or buy into the lie that it’s the “cheaper” way to get to fibre.
Everyone else has moved on. And many are now starting to realise that FTTN is just putting off the inevitable.
Rubbish Richard. Please go back to the Senate Committee hearings of late 2013. There was an inquiry into broadband. Two union officials gave evidence. They both work with the copper CAN on a daily basis in the pits. You will find their testimony damning. Basically both said that Telstra [1] has done no copper CAN maintenance since 1999 and [2] Telstra does not know the state of its own copper CAN network.
Richard you have not got the faintest idea what you are talking about. To make a claim that “Telstra’s CAN is in good shape” shows that whoever you are you are not involved in any way with the coalface of Telstra’s physical structure.
Oh brother.. it’s a disgrace..
wow. just wow. they really don’t care about future proofing at all. so much ideology in play. Why pay for new copper when new fiber is the same cost and has vastly lower maintenance fees. jesus
Indeed. They are on a crusade to prove copper can do it, they cant do that if they do something sensible like replace it with fibre.
I’m with Hubert on this one. I live in 6VIC-10, and I will never know if our copper is good bad or ugly, ‘cos the fiber has just whizzed past my house.
But I do note that changing from Amnet to iiNet gave me a significant increase in stability and speed, using the same (?) ADSL2+ naked line. My router reports these numbers: Up: 863925 Down: 4073406 SNR: 9 Loop Att: 51
And I’m sure I could get some improvement with some tweeking, even at 4++K’s from the exchange.
Looking at the amount of work in laying ¿How many kilometers? of fiber, then all the pre-service testing, etc, etc, I can understand that rolling out new copper in a few sections may be very tempting, even if we use thicker wire than Telstra did.
Of course fiber is better, but the last-mile copper does have superficial attractions.
Gordon.
The worst ideological crusade since the Khmer Rouge had their “Year Zero” program and tried to get water to flow uphill.
What do you mean? It’s right there on the Independent CBA (yeah try saying that with a straight face) pg14
Where it’s “economically ‘future proof'” since we can just “pay more to upgrade” if “the need arises” and the “faster roll out” means we’re already taking advantage of the “benefits”
So in a nutshell it makes sense money wise to put off the cost later and use the same money to build a half assed job which can be upgraded for the “future” making it “future proof”..
… can someone please hit these idiots w/ those giant hard cover dictionaries and tell them to take grade school English classes again? Seeing as they think using a “word” in their own twisted context will magically mean what their saying is “correct”
“What we have found is that the copper is actually in far better shape than what a lot of people believe.”
Which explains why in trial areas it appears some have had multiple visits to get the outcomes being bandied about as success, in order to legitimise the service – right? Cool. Glad we had that conversation.
I don’t doubt some of the copper is okay. I also don’t doubt some of it is in truly awful state. But the problem is, to get profitability out of nodes, they will want to hit a user-per-node ratio that makes it profitable.
So, new copper will quite likely go in to shore up numbers on a node, rather than drop in a fibre tails on an adhoc basis (which is likely now far more expensive, because the economies of scale afforded by running dozens of pairs in a single trench don’t now exist).
On the one hand, you have to expect NBNco will try and maximise value in the deployment; they’re supposed to. But the distortion this brings to the notion of a future upgrade, is quite hard to ignore.
“But the problem is, to get profitability out of nodes, they will want to hit a user-per-node ratio that makes it profitable. ”
This particularly falls down when you consider the distances between suburbs in outer burbs or hobbiest area’s. Hearing of 2 users or a dozen per node and even then the distances are still pretty large.
With NG GPON2 being 10Gbps and at 40km (I know its only just been ratified) really does make a mockery of MTM.
It was also stated at one of the NBN senate hearings early this year or late last year that they would roll out NEW coax in HFC areas if required…
…getting beyond a joke now…
They really bought into Malcolm’s thought bubble hey.
They were brought in precisely for the purpose of buying into Malcolm’s thought-bubble. There was no other possible outcome.
Surely there is a darker element to this. When in the MTM copper is found to be shot, will people in marginal seats be more likely to get better outcomes???
That was what was great about 93% FTTP under Labor: it was apolitical.
Right;-)
Remind us of the first rollout areas.
Ok succinctly, I’ll remind you of the overall roll outs…
The original plan, was slightly behind NBNCo’s “own aggressive targets” (shh don’t mention Telstra or asbestos, unless it’s within the last 12 months) having set up absolutely everything from scratch and on budget – in giving Australia a world-class comms network. Ooh they also arranged for satellites, which were derided by MT, which MT is now beating his chest taking credit for (just like the FttP he and Bilson are also taking credit for)…
But I digress
As opposed to this woefully inadequate “faster, cheaper” mess, so far behind it’s sadly laughable and which just blew out by $15B… in giving Australia an obsolete, third class, network.
Now new copper… speaking of comedy as did Abel, ROFL (as is the rest of the world at us).
Not really surprised.
It was alluded to in Senate Hearings from memory, and is even mentioned in the Corp Plan 2016 (Pg 29):
“The copper network will be constructed and maintained on a like-for-like construction basis i.e. replacement of aerial routes with aerial and underground with underground where cables are replaced.”
They also admitted in a Senate hearing that they would use satellite for premises in FTTN areas if the copper wasn’t adequate to cover everyone in area.
which is abominable as those satellites are desperately need for those out bush that cannot get anything else.
School over the air …. well as long as its not Liberal or National party air you might get it to work!
And they expect us to believe they really aren’t anti-FTTP. In what world does it make sense to replace copper with copper? If you were going to go to the effort of pulling replacement technology through a pit, there is no difference between pulling fibre and copper. The FTTP connections to customers can be done pretty quickly. The are ding PCD installs in our area at the moment and they are flying through them. FTTP will last much longer into the future, and will be a better investment in any calculation over the long term – which is where NBN Co should be looking. The lack of vision from this government is appalling, and it has foisted onto NBN Co. Australia will be laggards for decades thanks to the decisions being made now. Its seriously dumb.
And they expect us to believe they really aren’t anti-FTTP. In what world does it make sense to replace copper with copper?
A few things really:
1. The noise when the press gets wind of 1 customer having 1Gbps and next door only having 25Mbps – or worse.
2. The noise when the neighbour A gets wind that neighbour B has 1Gbps and rings the press, rightly pissed off.
2.a The reduced $$$ when neighbour A talks neighbour B into WIFI repeating/broadcasting and sharing with neighbour A.
2.b The really reduced $$$ when neighbour’s C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J and K all figure out that if they share they could get an average of 100Mbps (4x faster than the current FTTN figures) for the price of 1 Gbps connection.
2.c Add another 10 neighbours and we are still at an average of 50Mbps – twice as fast as the current FTTN
The only way replacing copper with fibre works, in the short term, is to replace an entire street or area. Then most people will just happily migrate from current DSL service to the NBN without talking to their neighbours about it.
1 customer having 1Gbps and next door only having 25Mbps? They are already deploying some FTTP. Therefore, this is a problem whether they do remediation or not.
Wifi rebroadcasting? This can work for 1-2 neighbours, but not for a significant number. It will require hardware savvy. Additionally, 40m maximum range of any serious speed will preclude many neighbours.
40 metres?
While it is the press coverage of pissed off consumers they fear most, by deploying fibre to a single premise (more than likely a tech head as they will know why and how to complain) it will drive community nets.
I’ve been playing around with kit for a while now, I reckon for a little over $100 per house, I could redistribute to 10 houses around me easily.
I think you have a serious problem with the understanding of how cable is replaced.. If it is replaced, every house along that line is getting the “upgrade”. If they were to just replace 1 cable to 1 house from the line it is still connecting to copper and well, thats just not how it works.
Especially when even Turnbull agrees, fibre to the node is at best stop gap measure. All seem to believe it will need to be replaced within a decade or two. May meet needs of now but not 2020.
I remember reading a senate hearing last year with Addock saying if only single copper is faulty they will fix or replace it with new copper. If the whole area is faulty they would do fibre
Yes, well Mr Broadband promised that faulty copper would be replaced with Fibre in the run up to the election. He said it several times.
he also said it would cost $29B and be done by 2016. He said a lot of thing that weren’t true
did he actually say anything that was truthful?
I am thinking, thinking, second thought I’ll get back to you
Yes he said Tony Abbott had his full loyalty…
Oh wait.
It was Morrow
National Broadband Network Select Committee
11/07/2014
Page 45
Mr Morrow: If one home in the neighbourhood has an aerial lead-in dropping down to house that is defective but the rest of the copper is adequate within the neighbourhood, then we are going to do fibre to the node. It is cheaper to replace the lead-in from the pole to the customer’s home.
I’m seeing the word copper so much now that it needs to be banned. In this age, the only thing copper is still good for is my kettle cord. I hope these clowns are not serious about replacing old copper with new copper otherwise this will end up costing more than going all FTTP.
It already close to if not already costing more than FTTP
If you also consider the loss of the high speed plan revenues, maintenance and running cost of the node’s and copper and economic losses it is already way more expensive and we have not even considered the cost of upgrading to FTTP (the endgame) by the time FTTN is finished (if ever) as it will be obsolete by the time it is build.
yeah I mean currently on whirlpool who signed up for 100/40 plans are already planning to downgrade as their line doesn’t even get close.
I’d wager on FttN there’s going to be little to no 100/40 plans that get ordered and are kept for that reason and I bet its really going to hurt their budget next year too. No high end users to cross subsidise and they’re under pressure to lower prices as well!
And conservative Peeps will cite the lack of 100/40 plans being purchased on FTTN and claim the demand for higher speed internet just isn’t there, justifying the investment in MTM and not FTTP.
The good thing about the downward spiral, you are always just about to turn the corner.
We should all protest by disconnecting the UTP patch cables from all of our equipment and burning the wretched 20th century things in a big pile, copper, blerch what a dirty word, good for absolutely nothing, clearly! Ok now that I have that out of my system, HFC areas that need new tails could be replaced/filled in with RFoG.
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of your comment as far as lines go, copper is absolutely necessary for all electronic devices. Without it, we would not be communicating now.
Cost blowouts just to avoid fibre ! They really want to stifle things and keep people offline as much as possible !
They can get stuffed. I will pay the thousands to get fibre. At least my connection will be staying up while the rest will be offline. That is why people should oppose completely and blockade if you will.
If I wasn’t planning to move away to further my career and live in a place that’s more me (*not* this beachside suburb), I would be seriously looking at FOD. This is in spite of the fact that the copper here is fairly good, judging by my line over 9 years and the heat map on adsl2exchanges. I really don’t want to be part of this exercise in national mediocrity called FTTN.
The last time I read anything about that option I believe you paid to lay the fibre but when completed it was handed over to the NBN Co (or Telstra) and you had to pay an exorbitant amount in monthly rent to use it.
If that has changed it would be awesome as I was considering it if the NBN was ever rolled out in my area.
That’s how FOD works for BT in the UK.
NBN won’t release any info on there FOD
Telstra doesn’t even want to touch it. They killed fibre, delayed everything and only trying to find people willing to deal with the mess that Telstra has left us with. They will not find people willing to be skilled in copper watch !
I’ve got wind by an electrical trader. He believes the cable pipes are cracked they will be having a hard time laying the fibre too.
This site definitely quotes “remediation” for FTTN areas.
http://www.mynbn.info/
It’s the euphemism of the decade.
If I have to repeat myself again and again vote the bastards out at the next election, that’s the only solution and tell everyone one you know to vote them out.
While the NBNCo are at it, they can install steam powered ss (step by step) exchanges too.
When I was in Telstra in the 1990’s the field techs were complaining then, that “the copper network is shot”, their words and I will believe them over Turnbull and his NBN cronies.
The only way to fix this mess, is fibre.
(The only way to fix this mess, is fibre.) true but to do that you first have to vote the bastards out and get labor to do it because this current government refuses to accept the facts because they are politically motivated, Labor accepted the facts and came to the conclusion that fibre was the future.
Labor have said they won’t. MTM is locked in and attempting to change yet again is just another 3 years and Billions of more tax payers $ wasted. Possibly the replacement copper sillyness will go away with a change of government but most stuff has been locked down sadly.
Yes, there will be certain aspects of the MTM that Labor won’t be able to undo but by having Labor in government we have a better chance of INCREASING THE FIBRE FOOTPRINT not reinventing the comms wheel, this current government last time reduced the fibre footprint again, I think from 24% to 20%. Labor has a reputation for negotiating, they will listen to the people they aren’t arrogant like Turnbull and say when petitioned with hundreds of thousands of signatures “democracy has spoken end of story”. What he is saying is one day every 3 years its a democracy and the other 1095 its a dictatorship, you only have to look a the Same Sex Marriage issue, the majority of people agree with it and the coalition want to delay it and spend 160 million of our money on a plebiscite. I know its a completely different issue but the stupidity remains the same
I would hazard that only the remediation parts are likely to change under labor (ie if its borked roll fibre not anything else instead of this Cu bs). The prime contractor contracts are locked in for 6 years so the foot prints won’t change that much.
If Howard had separated the arms of Telstra when sold, we would have fibre to the premises now. Howard tried how many times, some 17 I believed to get high speed broadband up. All failed. Getting Telstra out of the picture, is what held Labor up, added to the cost.
NBNCo was the only possible way to go. History proved no other worthwhile option was available. Turnbull’s effort has added to this proof.
You are absolutely correct. Alston as communications minister stuffed that up.
If there is a Royal Commission called into this miss-management of the NBN sometime down the track.
That would be 3 in a row for Bill Morrow… Time to retire before you get caught Billy boy.
*facepalm*
Where is Richard when you need him? I’ve been told multiple times in other comments threads by him that NBN Co wouldn’t possibly new copper if the copper isn’t up to scratch, and other technologies would be used.
i think he got upset with me when i called him out on the y28 FTTP complete date when its not Labor date but if they had to stop everything now and move back to FTTP. Then i pointed out that now the Strategic Review that he loved to use so much that scenario 2 was only $8B more and finish 1 year later than MTM.
Drop in from time to time, travelling Iran at the moment.
Jason you point confused the completion time in the SR with the revised timeline in CP15. Look at either in their own (or any other published experience) FTTN is faster than FTTH.
They won’t be running substantial new copper. Yes some remediation might require a small amount of replacement. The amount is insignificant for a project of this size. As NBNCo has already stated where copper isn’t useable they’ll overbuild with fibre.
Richard So what i cant compare apples with apples.
I am comparing a
cost of $56B and complete by Y22 MTM CP15
cost of $64B and complete by Y23 FTTP SR
You wanted in the SR compared a complete date or y21 for FTTN and a not finished FTTP.
Yes FTTN is faster so far by only a year. So far the cost as almost equaled FTTP again $8b difference. But then that $8 difference is over shadow by the OPEX cost of FTTN which makes its even more costly than FTTP is now.
Jason read the documents SR13p17, CP16p39.
They cant make it any clearer. As posted to Gregory no industry figure believes FTTN and FTTH are close in cost nor time to rollout. You are foolish to post they are. As ridiculous as your 25mbps 1 sec per day.
Yes Richard
SR13p17 has Senario 2 FTTP roolout at $64B and complete by Y23
CP16p39 Has an FTTP if they had to stop MTM restart FTTP
latest senate hearing
Mr Morrow: As Mr Rue said earlier, there was no request that said, ‘If you went back in time, hypothetically,
from 2013, and if you kept going with an all-FTTP fixed-line footprint, what would the number be?’ We were not
asked to do that. The question by the government was, ‘If we were to look at moving right now back to an FTTP
environment, what would the number be?’
Richard
NBN Co Ethernet Bitstream
Service
Wholesale Broadband Agreement
12 Speeds, performance and availability
12.1 Speeds of Ordered Products
(a) References to download and upload speeds (PIR and CIR) in this Product Description are to
Layer 2 speeds, including where those speeds are expressed as a range, are references to the
maximum data throughput that the NBN Co Network is designed to make available to Customer at the UNI used to serve the relevant Premises, and not the minimum data throughput. For example, where the PIR is expressed as a range for a particular bandwidth
profile:
(i) the maximum data throughput at the UNI used to serve the relevant Premises may
peak anywhere in that range; and
(ii) may reach a PIR within that range only once during a 24 hour period.
So Richard are you calling NBN foolish as its there own document and the PIR is 25Mbps.
GimpCo setting the bar low. As low as they can possibly go.
Everything backwards in the coalition clown world.
The speed you need is the speed you get once a day.
Chernobyl class clusterfuck.
@jason
Right, bitstream service across all technologies. Peak vs committed information rates. Read traffic classes.
Take some time to understand the documents you see quoted by bloggers, most never worked in IT (just write about).
downstream Mbps (PIR) AVC TC-4 upstream Mbps (PIR)
12/1 FTTB and FTTN
25/5 FTTB and FTTN
25/5 – 10* FTTB and FTTN
25 – 50*/5 – 20* FTTB and FTTN
25 – 100*/5 – 40* FTTB and FTTN
FTTP
12/1
25/5 25/10
50/20
100/40
Yep Richard so if your 100/40 FTTN/FTTb connection gets 25Mbps for 1 second in a day there is nothing wrong with your connection but if your FTTP 100/40 doesnt get 100Mbps for 1 sec in a day there is something wrong with your connection.
If the copper is so good as your claim they should need this disclaimer
The speeds actually experienced by Customer, Downstream Customers and End Users will vary and depend upon a number of factors including:
the quality of any existing Line, bridge-taps
Richard
Well lets compare the the CP15
We have a MTM cos $56B complete Y22
Now CP15 sates for FTTP if they have to stop and start FTTP again it would cost $86B and complete Y26-Y28.
Now we now the $15B increase cost is from switching to MTM so we can scratch that off the cost. We also they have been taking 2 year to switch to MTM so we can scratch that out. Plus we can asume that since its taken 2 year to switch to MTM it would take another 2 year to switch back to FTTP. So that 4 total year scratched off.
So looking at the FTTP would cost $72B can be complete around Y22-Y24 so the only real difference is $15B
I’m genuinely happy you are travelling and starting to enjoy your twilight years Richard:)
Say hi to Syd for me too ;)
It’s just a shame you wish mediocrity, in relation to comms, upon the rest of us and especially those who will come after you? Because like FttP now, in these mystical future years you speak of when FttP is actually required (as you have said, to argue FttP isn’t needed yet) and can then be built, I bet even as it eventually smacks these blinkered naysayers in the face, there will still be “Richard’s” (no pun intended) out there telling us FttN is good enough and only fanboys would want better.
Ah, the blinkered conservative wheel of misfortune continues eh?
Enjoy your trip :)
@rizz you won’t have to worry about your career path following mine.
Iran was fantastic, thanks.
Oh Richard I have a career path… one you could only dream about…
And I don’t have to count fkn cars or skite about being a bean counter, which is why I laugh (out loud literally), heartily every time you look down at me without foundation :)
Again I reiterate as I did some 5 years ago, you or your’s would have one of my products at your/their place but I don’t yours…!
So please continue to believe one’s empty superiority …
We all got f$%ked in the ass by the Lieberals mostly by Mal, it’s done now no matter how much you all want to whinge and bitch, it’s not going to change anything, even Labor wont change anything when/if they get back in at the next election. We lost, get over it.
Negative. If a node isn’t down then there’s hope.
You can call it negative, ill call it realistic.
You actually need to do something if you want to make a change.
I’m a member of my local council, and I’ve got them talking about it. We’ve already submitted a quote for a technology change in our area.
Yes it will be in the millions, at least it’s a start :)
Talking is doing something: it’s called democracy!
No sign of FTTN coming to my address, so there’s hope for FTTH yet.
I like your logic.
Contracts have been signed with prime contractor’s folks and the Libs are spending millions training people in copper tech.
My mate was seeing fibre laid in his street outside and getting NBN fibre letters. The money ran out (his sub area removed from map) and he has since been informed (congratulated) that he will be on the HFC instead. If he’s not getting H I doubt others will. Funny thing is his Foxtel connection is via a dish :D and not the street cable (he can’t get cable internet).
At least he can get rid of the dish once he gets HFC.
The point is, NBNCo doesn’t seem to really know where the usable HFC finishes and the unusable begins. And at this pace, it seems like they don’t want to know until after any election.
They will find out and that will be labour-intensive, therefore expensive. We’re talking about cabling that was laid up to 20 years ago. Bury anything for 20 years and it will be rough (except fibre). Fun and games and we have ringside seats. There are lots of eyes in those suburbs and people talk. Hee hee
HFC was an aerial deployment.
Interesting point MDUs; FTTB? They can’t get back involved with the strata issue (foxtel and optus bypassed, NBNCo service class zero). But this disaster likely to repaet the same errors.
Richard,
Some HFC cable is aerial, and some (mainly Telstra) is via Telstra ducts.
Some strata complexes have HFC cable backbone installed.
Once again, your knowledge is flawed.
I wonder if that’s because people LIKE ME ( In Brisbane Metro) disconnected the copper 5 years ago after 12 plus years of intermittent copper faults ?. The ones remaining are less likely to disconnect if they have perfect copper
Demand for Copper is down and the miners are struggling with low prices, a brilliant innovation to support our heroic foreign owned miners and cable makers
What I still don’t understand is that since the point is to get the best sale price after the installation is finished going cheap and nasty will attract a price to match so why not go full fibre to get the price to match at sale.
Replacing bad copper with fibre will naturally increase the sale price due to the increased potential return and lower ongoing running costs and maintenance.
Because NBN has (ironically) nothing to do with internet access, value or ROI.
It’s a political expedient. Labor used it to bolster their position, when it became apparent they didn’t have the stones to forcibly separate Telstra’s infrastructure and retail businesses. LNP used it to bash from opposition (and then happily be lobbied on what to do). Both have decided to ignore the market that knows what works, in favour of taking a crack at it themselves.
Granted the market was happy to not build itself into financial oblivion, and there are vested interests – but to mostly ignore the decades of combined knowledge was exceedingly foolish.
A bit like chewy ‘flying casual’ submissions were requested, and then mostly ignored. Must be seen to be consulting, of course.
Whatever NBNco and the network might have been, is now a moot point. It will be a decade or more before anyone even considers what to do about the current cluster-fuck – assuming anyone even wants to.
Even Labor realises now, there’s nothing left to salvage. Better to leave it as a coalition legacy, something to be derided I am sure.
Telstra’s lack of interest in the infrastructure build, frankly, is very telling – they got out of the copper game, once it was realised the government was going to do whatever the hell it wanted anyway.
Sol Trujilio may have raged on, but it’s clear the board saw the writing on the wall. No certainty to invest in. Nothing to gain in a network they can’t control.
So here we are. A patchwork quilt controlled by vested interests, lobbyists and most frighteningly, politicians.
More concerning is this ‘project’ needs to raise debt to finish itself. I guess its going to have to rely on the countries AAA rating because I doubt any kind of decent deal is going to get done otherwise.
I mean if you were given the choice of what to invest in the original NBN or this MTM mess for the same % return …. well even the PM hasn’t chosen his own mess!
My biggest frustration with copper is the pit placement.
We live in a row of terraces. And each terrace has old school drain pipes running off both stories, down onto the footpath.
And where did they install the Pits? right under the drain pipes, right on the border of the blue stone foundation.
1 – they get flooded every time it rains.
2 – they undermine the bluestone foundations (the terraces slowly fall twoard the pit cracking the front of the houses.
Not unique to our suburb. happening to many terraces in inner city Melbourne.
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