news One of Malcolm Turnbull’s senior staffers has sent a popular Australian technology blogger a caustic email telling him to “get fucked” and informing him that “nobody takes your psychotic rantings seriously”, as the relationship between Turnbull and sections of Australia’s technology community continues to sour.
The blogger concerned, Steve Jenkin, runs a popular local blog entitled ‘Stevej on NBN’. Jenkin, who is a long-time IT professional, is well-known for his regular articles severely criticising the Coalition’s National Broadband Network policy and praising Labor’s policy. Recent headlines on his site have labelled the Coalition’s fibre to the node-based policy a “financial disaster” which will lose the Federal Government “billions”, for example, and Jenkin has also attempted to fact-check a number of key Coalition assertions.
Although Jenkin has taken a broadly partisan approach in his work, his blog is read by some elements of Australia’s technology community. Jenkin has also engaged directly with technology journalists in an effort to get his ideas publicised more widely, and has succeeded in having his articles published on some media outlets, such as Technology Spectator. In addition, Jenkin has also engaged with Turnbull’s office directly, in an attempt to obtain more information about the Coalition’s NBN policy.
Jenkin published one of those interactions on his blog yesterday, consisting of an email exchange between the blogger and Stephen Ellis, a policy advisor who works directly for Turnbull and is believed to have directly responsible for helping to develop the Coalition’s NBN policy, as well as the background briefing document which was released alongside the policy in March. Ellis has an extensive background in both journalism and technology; details of which can be found online.
In his blog post, Jenkin noted that he was seeking detailed information from Ellis with regard to the figures which went in to the Coalition’s NBN policy, especially associated with the Coalition’s projected wholesale costs associated with its future NBN vision. “I wrote to a senior Turnbull staffer, asking a reasonable commercial question that [retail ISPs] should know before the election, so they might review their business plans and start contingency planning,” wrote Jenkin.
In response, Ellis severely rejected Jenkin’ email and attacked him personally, according to the email published on Jenkin’ site. “I mark your emails ‘junk’ (like your copy) so didn’t see your note until [Communications Day publisher Grahame Lynch] replied,” wrote Ellis.
“Nobody challenges your numbers because nobody takes your psychotic rantings seriously. Nobody. Nevertheless they are all wrong. All of them – you don’t have a clue about the existing deal, much less how it might be modified. Given what you write is a delusional fantasy that exists only in your own mind, you can get fucked.”
“Since the NBN stands to be greatly modified under whoever wins, your serial lies and distortions will be exposed in due course. In the meantime do not contact me again. Have a nice life.”
Ellis — who declined to comment on the issue when contacted by Delimiter — was not the only critic of Jenkin in the email train. Grahame Lynch, the publisher of telecommunications industry newsletter Communications Day, also attacked Jenkin over his questions to the Turnbull staffer.
“Why do you never ask these questions of the current government and why do you hold one side of politics to a considerably higher standard of burden of proof than the other that is AHEM actually in government? Will you ever speak an ill word against the present situation or will you hide behind your defence that there is “no data” about the NBN as it stands?” wrote Lynch to Jenkin.
The news comes as Turnbull’s relationship with some aspects of Australia’s technology sector continues to be tense (paywalled article), owing both to what some see as the MP’s confrontational approach to discussing the merits of the various NBN policies, as well as Turnbull’s continued support for the FTTN broadband deployment style, which, it is generally acknowledged by telecommunications industry experts, can be rolled out faster and cheaper than Labor’s all-fibre FTTP-based approach, but which is technically inferior in terms of the capabilities it can deliver.
Other bloggers supportive of the NBN, such as IT professional Kieran Cummings, have also continued to severely criticise Turnbull on issues related to the project and the Coalition’s NBN policy.
Turnbull’s relationship with elements of Australia’s technology media has also been difficult at times over the past several years. In March, for instance, Turnbull faced a number of questions from the media as to whether his actions at the time towards ABC journalist Nick Ross and others constituted ‘bullying’ journalists with respect to the contentious NBN issue in his portfolio. And in August last year, Turnbull accused “specialist technology journalists” of fanning a “pro-NBN zealotry” amongst tech-savvy citizens and ignoring “feasible alternatives” to the Government’s current NBN rollout style.
Image credit: J Miller, royalty free
Stay classy.
Problem with Steve Jenkins is hes an IT professional, his specialty isnt telecommunications.
Neither is Renai or Michael Wyres, etc.
So unfortunately, with blogs there is so much misinformation or disinformation just because people arent checking their facts and just posting opinions.
Myself – my CV reads a bit like
Bachelor degree in electronics engineering
15 yrs in the telecoms industry in various professional roles in large telcos and equipment vendors..
experience in construction, design, technology, project management and business.
I still consider myself still a bit of a newbie, as there are guys that do similar work to me who have been doing it for 40yrs in their field as professionals – and if you ask them a broad strategy question like will FTTN suffice for next ten years and expect an answer … they’ll tell u to fuck off….
So when I read a lot of these articles either in blogs or in the mainstream commerical media, there are so many misunderstanding …and when I hear from guys like conroy, he is really quite clueless about all this stuff, malcolm is just acting like a politician does and countering the attacks often without recourse to stuff which he should know better being involved in the industry…and finally that new Labor guy, whats his name….wow…this guy is almost as bad a coonan LOL
spectacle continues
I have half a degree in business information technology, and trained as a Linux/Unix systems administrator. I then spent a year or so workin as a sysadmin at an ISP, before becoming a telco and enterprise IT reporter. My specialities are telco, as well as government IT, which they have remained since January 2005. I’m not sure about the other guys, but I assure you, I am qualified to write about this area.
Similarly, I have a degree in pure computing, numerous industry accreditations, and having been working in IT in one form or another since 1994, the last seven of which has been primarily in telecommunications or telecommunications-related systems…
…but my background, and Renai’s background isn’t actually the point…the point is the representative of a senior politician told someone seeking to engage with them on an important subject to “get fucked”…
This is not appropriate, whether you agree with the politics or not…
It also suggests a certain sensitivity to being asked the question “Please explain.” Normally, especially during an election campaign, those seeking the votes of others are anxious to explain the merits of their plans. Unless it is about 6 point plans to Stop the Boats.
Besides, he didn’t even say “…with respect”.
I have worked in the ICT industry since 1975.
At different times I have maintained, installed and designed telecommunications equipment including analog, 2G, 3G and 4G wireless technologies microwave in the wireless domain and transmission networks from copper based 2Mb/s up to trunking fibre systems.
In the IT area I worked for a number of years as a Unix/Linux administrator.
I hold formal qualifications in Electronic Engineering, Telecommunications Network Engineering and have completed, but never bothered doing the exam (I already had the job), all the industry training to qualify as a Unix administrator and MCSE.
I do have some idea also.
actually to be perfectly honest, the nbn as proposed by Lib or Labor are both duds…its a trick question…but i am a bit amused as to how far its gone and the number of so called industry experts backing it…they must be paid a bit or perks given to say these things…
the sad thing are the people who believe in it with zealotry enthusiasm, but then again, in the mass media you wont find the facts that puts nail to the coffin of these ‘concepts’ like nbn etc. while they make huge claims about what it will bring and whats possible, with objective facts and speaking to the right people who are experts in the area will kill all this pointless rhetoric…but reality never works like that…
anyone arguing for either side of this has already proven themselvs to be not an expert on the matter as the cost to provide both projects and for what both parties claim to deliver is excessive and poorly conceived. I wonder what the politicians will do if that ever got out! ie. the facts.
How should an complete upgrade to Australia’s communications be made then?
If both are the wrong way to do it. What is a right way?
@dude yeah look it doesn’t really matter if half the people responding here have degrees, industry qualifications and (combined) probably several decades of experience across lord knows how many technical disciplines – that really has no relevance to the key story point.
If you’re going to tell people to “fuck off” when inquiring about policy detail, you’ve already shot yourself in the foot. There’s just no excuse. Ever.
dude, we are all in awe of your valuable contribution.
My two cents, ICT professional since 1981, internet user since 1982 on a 300 bps acoustic coupler.
Internet in 82? I used the local Australian university connections since the late 70s, but other than a couple of 2400baud tempory connections now and then by some Unis and the CSIRO, Australia didn’t have a perminant link to the internet until 89. I was lucky enough to get access to it in 89 as Oates (mops, brooms, sponges, etc) sys administrator had a friend in Aarnet and we managed to wrangle using the internet connect their operations in various states.
ummm If you knew what you were doing you could access the links via certain Melbourne and Sydney Telco systems into the fledgling internet (gopher for the win) via some interesting and shall we say… ummm.. not authorised German routes way back in very early 80’s…
I have an iPhone.
Fantastic. Best laugh I’ve had in a while.
Since you’re such an expert in this particular area of Information Technology I am sure you have a well thought out alternative proposal to present that, if you can rally the political support, will serve Australia far better than what is proposed and (in the case of the NBN) being implemented right now.
Surely you see the benefit in trying to teach those who you feel are not qualified to comment on this very complex and important area of modern society rather than attacking their credentials and making unsupported claims about the quality (or lack their of) of the presented policy?
I mean, the above posts by you where you accuse LeMay and Wyres of being under qualified were just a lapse in your otherwise impeccable judgement! I look forward to you truly entering into this debate and enlightening us with your wisdom.
if you do not like either parties NBN proposal – what would be your ideal alternative, Dude?
governments are never going to please everyone with a project like this, but it would be intresting to hear your solution
It doesnt have to be A or B, when both A and B are both BS.
Option A
It is best to look at this from pre NBN rollout solution, then post roll out and current progress and problems..
take it apart and go ahhhhh-ha, see…of course you would have this problem, just look at what you said here…did you fact check it? Do you consult all the necessary people?
Option B
Libs NBN…FTTN for $30Bn? Wut?! are these guys on drugs? should be only $10Bn max.
“Libs NBN…FTTN for $30Bn? Wut?! are these guys on drugs? should be only $10Bn max.”
Pure conjecture on your part.
Oh wait…. I wasted my time on a troll didn’t I?
I’m afraid so, Carl :o)
In Option A you have given a dissection approach to a problem ridden project without actually identifying what the problems are. Please address this.
In Option B you have made a statement without verification. Please also address this.
You haven’t written any peer reviewed papers have you?
You haven’t answered my question.
option A…
option B…
Or what is Dude’s option?
With your background and experiance I expect that you would at least be able to present an alternative that you like.
Indeed Chip…
This demonstrates the complete insincerity of some posters…
They will say, the NBN and/or it’s alternative are crap, but when quizzed as to, ok tell us a better plan, they disappear.
I’d suggest a few of our new friends came exclusively to deflect from the topic.
Those grapes sure are sour though right buddy?
I have the NBN and it’s awesome, far from a “dud”.
My suburb won’t be getting the nbn before 2015….even though the rest of this city is….hell even howard is. stupid…..
I feel for you man, I’m already on 100Mbps, it’s pretty sweet (though I’m used to 1Gbps from the desktop at work). Hopefully Malcolm’s review/study/reports push him to see a better way…
@ dude = @ troll
I’m not entirely sure on what basis a half finished degree and some time as a Linux system administrator makes you qualified to write about telecommunications? The quality of your articles are relatively low and mostly consists of re-hashing posts and opinions from Whirlpool. It’s the sort of self-adulating ‘journalism’ that has emerged without some vague level of editorial quality control in the traditional press.
You have no experience working in telecommunications and no understanding of the economics of running a carrier, deploying a network or supporting one. Your blinkered salivation for the NBN and demonstrable admiration for Conroy who is uncountably the worst communications minister this country has ever had makes that very clear.
When you’ve spent 10 years working for a carrier in a serior position and go back to University and finish that degree, oh and wait, maybe get a Masters, then you can state you’re qualified.
I love the posts who state “who cares what your qualifications or experience is, you can voice your opinion”. Yes! Absolutely! Please, let the educated and unqualified voice their “expert” opinions to a wide audience!
Until then, it’s just another example of why opinions are like !@#holes … everyone’s got one.
<3
You’ll find it’s a hell of a lot more experience than many an “Industry expert” has, when you look into what they have done, it’s pretty much they were given a business card with “analyst” printed on it.
he’d be better off doing ‘real journalism’ and talking to people who know what they are on about, or who have wikileaks ,,, to make the bastards accountable… these opinion pieces are so stupid ..
these opinion pieces are so stupid
In your opinion, then? ;o)
So going by your criteria we should also just discount every comment at the bottom of an article on the internet. Including mine and yours, as according to you, to be taken seriously – everyone MUST have a certain set of qualifications on their chosen topic, before they are informed enough to be taken seriously. Right? I mean who am I to have an opinion about something?
The comments suggesting that those with formal qualifications somehow have a monopoly on knowledge and comprehension merely demonstrate your lack of the same. As I’ve already said, it is the presentation of verifiable facts that are of substantive importance. If you have such facts and comprehend their important ancestors and relevance within the necessary context, then you have attained knowledge. The more facts you collect on a particular subject, the wider your reading and comprehension of the scenario and pertinent facts, the greater your understanding. This can occur quite irrespective of one’s formal qualifications, and the lack of them has zero bearing on the depth of their knowledge or the authority of their comments and critiques.
On the subject of claimed knowledge and experience, if you have had executive experience in IT & ICT you would (hopefully) recognise that many of the most brilliant people in these industries who command some of the highest salaries and even own some of the world’s most successful companies lack any formal qualifications. Many senior technical people like engineers working in these industries don’t even have directly related degrees – many of them did maths and physics degrees.
But what do I know? I’m just some anonymous commenter who hasn’t even provided my CV for your analysis.
Hey Ren, it seems the vehemence of comments attacking others in here has been stepped up a notch now that we know the election is in six weeks. Might need to put on a full time moderator to keep the ad hominems to a minimum ;-)
I keep an eye on the comments ;)
The problem with your opinionated comment is you have made unsubstantiated claims to experience that cannot be verified, you have done so under an anonymous handle, you make broadly sweeping criticisms of others while juxtaposing them against a fictional scenario that makes no sense and adds nothing of substance to the discussion. In short, your comment is nothing but trolling.
The thing about facts is, the origin or medium of communication is irrelevant if you can check and substantiate them. It doesn’t matter if comments or blogs on the subject of the NBN come from street sweepers or Eskimos if the facts provided stand up to scrutiny.
Don’t waste our time trying to undermine others through ad hominem attacks; if you can provide substantial and verifiable evidence that their writing is demonstrably inaccurate, that’s an entirely different matter.
“The problem with your opinionated comment is you have made unsubstantiated claims to experience that cannot be verified, you have done so under an anonymous handle, you make broadly sweeping criticisms of others while juxtaposing them against a fictional scenario that makes no sense and adds nothing of substance to the discussion. In short, your comment is nothing but trolling.”
This can be said about 99% of comments, statements concerning the NBN.
do you think David Marr has any idea what he is on about when he talks about (as though they were facts) –
– PNG solution
– NDIS
– NAPLAN
– ETS / CARBON TAX
– HIGH SPEED RAIL
.. to be honest, i think most of these are bullcrap… on the basis its ‘policy’ that will ‘never happen’ just like the ‘nbn’….i guess that is why there is more faith in private sector…yikes! cos they have to back it with their own money…but id say most of these can be debunked by the right people who ar experts…as to ‘why it wont work’ …but for now lets keep the discussion going..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:David_Marr_2007.jpg
“….i guess that is why there is more faith in private sector…”
And which portion of the NBN rollout is failure? Oh yes, the private sector.
You can argue the rates paid are too low, and that may be the case. But some took the contracts with full knowledge and failed. Some even suceeded and got more work. The private sector, though they have more incentive as it is their own cash, or actually, their customers former cash, still fail.
again, its probably because you have ZERO experience in large projects that you think that major contractor (syntheo) opting out of won $Bn bid, and facing default on NBN contract is like meh…nothing special…but to me this seems…hm just a bit weird…im no project manager etc. but i think this would be textbook alarm bells for someone who does this stuff for a living and could tell you what happens next, and then waht next, then next next next etc…….or what happened, ecause of this, and this , this and also this…..or can make an educated guess anyway…
then we might go back after the fact and go, ahhhh- i seeeee….so THATS what happenedz….lol…when it was like yeah duuuhh??????
any everyone on forum would say….yeah that X happened because of Y, but now its Z, so lets go back to A, and do it all again
Once again you have provided a dissection approach to a problem without identifying the problems. Although fixing it is important, understanding where the problems lie is more important.
Further note: Why should his lack of experience have any bearing on his understanding of a problem? Either he understands, or he doesn’t. He doesn’t need to have spent 5 years doing project management. If you’re going to address something someone says it is best not to lead with an attack on their credentials.
“Why should his lack of experience have any bearing on his understanding of a problem? Either he understands, or he doesn’t. He doesn’t need to have spent 5 years doing project management. If you’re going to address something someone says it is best not to lead with an attack on their credentials.”
Actually he is completely wrong there. I have been managing large projects since the 80s.
*nods* While admirable, and probably gives you considerable backup to base your understanding, it is ultimately irrelevant. You shouldn’t have to “prove” that you have the requisite experience in order to comment on the subject.
Experience is just, frankly, another measure of competency. If you’re experienced you are probably competent, but if you are competent that doesn’t mean you are experienced.
The other thing is, not everyone comments on everything. Just because you have not worked for a Telco does not mean you don’t have experience to comment on the technology. Even though I have led a lot of projects, it wasn’t something I was trained to do, nor even my primary roll. It’s just something that came from experience. My primary rolls have always been on the hardware and software side of things, not project management. Just being senior you tend to have to do a lot of that side of it too. I’d hate to be in the position of doing that as a job. I have seen too many peers go down that route and within 5 years they are completely out of date, bored to tears, and sometimes a liability, due to their out of date experience.
“again, its probably because you have ZERO experience in large projects”
Pretty big assumption there. I have never led a billion dollar projects but have delivered on many in the 100s of millions range.
“and facing default on NBN contract is like meh…nothing special…but to me this seems…hm just a bit weird”
I never said it was nothing special. I think it’s quite appauling. I can see how it happens through. I have worked on projects when there is little or no chance of making a profit. It’s either that some income is better than doing nothing at all, and hopefully it will lead to more profitable future contracts. Though taking a contract you knew you couldn’t complete and would be too big a drain would be a bad move. It would be interesting to know why the failure on their part. It’s not evey contractor who has failed.
Sorry, I am not sure about the rest of your post, can;t really follow what you are saying.
“again, its probably because you have ZERO experience in large projects that you think that major contractor (syntheo) opting out of won $Bn bid, and facing default on NBN contract is like meh…nothing special…but to me this seems…hm just a bit weird”
Given that Syntheo itself was created specifically to tender for NBN contracts and hence had ZERO experience in large projects or in fact ANY project, I wasn’t surprised at all.
It is more significant that NBNco seems to be experiencing no difficulty finding contractors to fill the gap.
The important part, as pointed out by the person you replied to, is making any facts you address in your comments verifiable. That way it doesn’t matter who said it, or why, or even how, through (deliberately) trolling is discouraged.
“and if you ask them a broad strategy question like will FTTN suffice for next ten years and expect an answer … they’ll tell u to fuck off”
So, anyone who has a lot of Telco experience are just rude and grumpy, or are they unable to articulate a response? I’ve got over 30 years in IT, and will attempt to answer any question asked. Some times it is hard because there is a lot of accumulated knowledge that things are based on.
Do they even answer yes or no, or is fuck off the standard?
Dude
Wow – finally; some sane words when it comes to the NBN (of any flavor)!
At least there is someone out their that can put words together that makes sense and describes the shamozle that is the “NBN” fiasco.
About time some of these “experts” were told to get f’d.
Thats it
Just Wow!
@ dude,
Instead of just attacking these people for what you perceive to be their lack of credentials why not actually answer the arguments they have put forward directly?
Someone without qualifications in a field CAN have a valid point. It is a bit ad hominem to purely shoot them down based on this alone and just pure lazy.
And anyway as you outlined they DO have qualifications in IT, you’re just squabbling about their qualifications not being as focused as you would like. How far and close together do you want to move the goal posts?
Well speaking of experts and 40 year veterans, who know it all…
I was having a discussion at ZD with my old mate Rich. He is someone who claims to fit the bill perfectly… a seasoned veteran, with many qualifications who is apparently the CIO of a company who amongst many things, rolls out fibre…(seeing his extreme NBN hatred obviously not NBN fibre)
He too says he is a libertarian – believes any government anything is no good…(but strangely he bags the NBN 24/7 and says the Coalitions plan was as if he’d written it himself :/). Anyway…
You know what?
This ‘CIO/credentialed expert’ in fibre wasn’t even familiar with the Fttx variants?
I’m not sure if it was comfort zone or incompetence or just plain dumb political bigotry (my guess all of the above)… but our new friends remind me of him.
CIOs don’t “need” to know the specifics of what they are deploying. Once you get to that level it is very much a CBA/metrics role. Your role is to be given a set of solutions, analyse their benefits and costs, and then tell your team to implement the one with the most favourable CBA, effectively. (There is a little bit more too it, like resourcing, etc, but in essence it comes to down to “are we doing this as efficiently as possible?”)
I believe therefore the reason he supports Turnbull is not because he feels that “FTTN” is a cost effective interim solution, but because Turnbull has thrown out terms like “technologically agnostic approach” and promised to perform a CBA. Which is what he has to be in his day to day life, and why he is so successful.
Indeed NK and exactly my point…!
All the qualifications, experience and egotistical chest beating under the sun, didn’t help this guy when the was mocking the NBN in relation to FttB and then demonstrating that he didn’t even understand what the FttB he was mocking actually was :/
For some reason I don’t believe you.
But if what you say is true, I don’t have a lot of respect for your skills (especially your analytically ones) to be honest.
The guys running the NBN have about what you claim times probably a couple of hundred. Yet we are suppose to take your opinion seriously when all you have basically done is claim you know what you are talking about but without giving any worthwhile analyse.
But since you seem to think name calling is valid, try this one on. If you are not lying, I pity whoever you work for dude.
…to the power of eleventy billion…
Having a political party staffer (be it either side of the house) be abusive in correspondence is a pretty poor effort (regardless of the recipients political or technical viewpoint) – surely they realised that that would in all likelihood would be made public?
Lynch is just as bad as Turnbull.
Ellis is quite the charmer it seems, and it’s no wonder that when Turnbull is losing a debate he then starts getting aggressive and personal. Seems they all operate that way.
Why is Lynch asking him to question the current NBN plans pricing? All the info he wanted about the Coalition plan is publicly available for the current one..
He’s asking because there are some really strange numbers in the policy as it stands as well as questionable missing numbers. The same goes for their rollout schedule.
Labor’s policy has at least been officially reviewed by others who have assisted with its development
It’s also worth noting Turnbull blocked Kieran Cummings (aka @Sortius on twitter) accusing him of being anonymous troll
http://sortius-is-a-geek.com/?p=2854
HAHA a few days after he blocked me for being apprantly the same thing lol.
Hooley dooley….
I mean SteveJ wasn’t exactly being polite in his requests, there was definite aggressiveness there. But there is no reason someone should be responding like that, even if it was from a personal email address and not a government one.
Has anyone asked Turnbull for comment yet?
Wow. Quite apart from the question of the extent and breadth of his readership, he is an Australian citizen and as such has a vested interest in the success and implementation of the NBN. We all do. We all have the right to ask questions of the LNP and to expect the courtesy of a polite reply as a bare minimum, if not an actual answer to our questions. For any representative of any political party to treat any member of the public like this is inexcusable under any circumstances. Seriously, the whole point of civilisation is that we manage to be civilised. This isn’t civil; it’s dismissive, abusive and downright hostile. The LNP should rebrand itself as the Australian Bogan Party. Oh, but that would be a bit too much honesty in politics for their tastes…
im not interested in the lab or lib version of the nbn, if anything i hope it tanks, as for the numbers they are throwing around, it is a horrible rip off for the taxpayer, and that is assuming there are no cost blow outs, then you can double the figures.
problem with these ideas is they never release the internal engineering documents, business studies, financials, and of course cost benefit study – “in any detail” such that industry experts can pick it apart with a surgical scapel, and let me tell you, it can be done…any assumption made – or waffle, or BS…is extracted like one would a physics experiment or investment bank to make a billion dollar bet on a company in the stock market, cos then youre not spending ‘other peoples money’
but noooooo…. lets just throw some BS technology around and let people vote for it, make it publically digestible and they will sign off on anything… every crucial part of this project can be taken apart, and by that I dont mean stupid DEBATES by art and political majors & sociallly conscienous wankers on Q&A on the ABC like that idiot David Marr who has an opinion on every subject he is not an expert in.
this crap is just wasting time, if they attempt to build crap, it will just cost a shitload
“im not interested in the lab or lib version of the nbn”
What NBN do you want then?
Written like someone who has decided that rather than issuing FOI requests to the relevant agencies, nhy even reading the publicly available documentation and dissecting it, like the Implementation Study by KPMG-McKinsey, the business plan, etc, they would rather just write off the whole thing than invest any time into it.
Complex systems often require complex answers, and frankly sir, if you are not willing to put in the time and effort to analysis these systems, you should not be commenting on them. Until you can provide some precise and directed criticism your opinion is invalid.
Why are both plans a dud? Answer that, and if you can, propose an alternative. I understand, however, that due to the nature of complex systems, proposing a better solution is a non-trivial task, but identifying the current problems with the current solution is no doubt an excellent place to start.
+1
@dude
I’d just like to say, you clearly have an issue with all the policies here, which, arguably, have been adjusted and come to over 5-6 years.
Can you tell me, just on the back of your cereal box if you like, what would be a better one from your vast experience?
At least I now know what is acceptable language to say to any LNP candidates when they come door knocking…
LOL @ Bob that was a brilliant comment. The LNP NBN is a sham, the speeds they “promise” to deliver by 2019 are already available with the current NBN set up, it’s easy to say you can produce a cheaper NBN when you a delivering a fraction of the quality and speeds. And @Dude i may not have your fancy degrees which from my experience mean shit all, I have the NBN so I’m speaking for knowledge in that area.
Good day Sir
PS: Turnbull just hurry up and admit you love the ALP NBN and your just doing this for the sake of Flabbot
LOL @ Bob that was a brilliant comment. The LNP NBN is a sham, the speeds they “promise” to deliver by 2019 are already available with the current NBN set up, it’s easy to say you can produce a cheaper NBN when you a delivering a fraction of the quality and speeds. And @Dude i may not have your fancy degrees which from my experience mean shit all, I have the NBN so I’m speaking for knowledge in that area.
PS: Turnbull just hurry up and admit you love the ALP NBN and your just doing this for the sake of Flabbot
So is anyone else curious about the above 2 posts
I’d suggest Matt is an NBN lover?
For a senior member of Turnbull’s staff to send such an email to someone who is so widely known and respected amongst the NBN community speaks volumes for the mindset of Turnbull’s entire anti-NBN position. Pomposity and bullying have combined with patronising hubrous to produce a new type of conservative. But we all know Turnbull more laughably by his other name: Mr Internet – “the man who invented the internet in Australia.”
Well, I have assembled a database every one of Turnbull’s blog and media interview transcripts, collected from his own website and other sources and am in the process of making a comprehensive list of Turnbull’s weasel words and statements of deceit and misfact. I can inform your readers that the list is very long.
I will publish it on my website, as I will also publish Steve Jenkin’s excellent exposes of Turnbull’s appalling plans for the destruction of a truly nation-building infrastructure.
“The NBN community” this is exactly indicative of the mentality of pro Labor NBN supporters. We’re a community and have to defend ourselves from the evil Turnbull plan… Sounds an awful lot like zealotry to me…
@ stirlo
Is “get fucked” an acceptable response? Especially from a politician’s senior staffer?
it very well maybe an appropriate response, I’ve not seen an exact copy of this bloggers request, but if he’s like what people in here have indicated (anti anti-nbn), then he very well may have deserved it.
I’ve said a lot worse over the years and why people are so like OMG did he realllllyyyyyy say that, I mean FFS wake up this is 2013, the F word is used countless times on every free to air public TV station including the Govt’s own ABC and SBS, nearly every single night. its like ” nothing to see here, move along “
He was seeking more information on the Liberal’s plan.
If the Liberal party really wants to show that their plan’s costings make sense, they should provide the details requested instead of telling him to “get fucked”.
Getting aggressive is a pretty good indicator that their policy is unable to withstand public scrutiny.
Yes I have said worse too Nobby6… Normally when I read a lot of the mindless anti-NBN drivel, in the comments section here at Delimiter, like I have done may times in relation to this article, just today ;)
But we aren’t talking about us, we are talking about a politician’s representative, replying to a request of information regarding their policies…
As Knowbody said, if they can’t be obliging to sell their rank proposal, they simply prove it’s a rank proposal… but then we all already know it’s a rank proposal (in comaprison to the current NBN) and it’s simply just the ‘faithful’ who are compelled to suggest otherwise… IMO.
@Nobby6
Seriously?? You haven’t even read his request and you’re automatically assuming he carried on and swore to get a ‘deserved response’ as he did?? He requested information about wholesale prices. He said if he didn’t get them, he would estimate them using their policy, Turnbull’s tidbits and basic sense. That’s it.
And secondly, yes, we all use the word Fuck day to day. That does NOT mean it is, in any way, shape or form acceptable for a staffer of the SHADOW MINISTER FOR COMMUNICATIONS to reply to a request in ANY way but politely. He could still have refused, just simply saying they will await NBN reviews just as Turnbull has said a dozen times. But he didn’t and that is unacceptable.
@seven_tech
Shoulda gone to spec savers pal.
“You haven’t even read his request and you’re automatically assuming he carried on and swore to get a ‘deserved response'”
I said he may have deserved it, you are the one assuming
it must be trollday or something
The bloggers request, and both responses, are linked in the article. You could have read it, and then made an informed comment. Seems odd that you didn’t really, or do you often post random stuff like that on the internet?
@Tinman_au
maybe I CBF going to read his blog?
maybe I have better things to do with my time?
maybe he has toned down any copy and paste of his initial request?
maybe it is word for word?
either way, I, again, CBF giving some unknown-to-me blogger some page counter hits.
I read the blogs of only a few people/orgs, those who I know, respect and trust are mostly impartial, it has been made very clear that blogger is a pro nbn zealot therefore, regardless of me being in favour of nbn , or otherwise, his comments/opinions mean nothing to me.
Well if you CBF to read the actual words said and get the actual info to back your comments, why should we BF taking your uneducated comments seriously?
Ahh so @Alex my comments are uneducated because my beliefs differ from yours, riiiiiiight, thank you, that says all I need to know about you…. and your education.
No, your comments are not uneducated because you disagree with him. They are uneducated because you didn’t to read what Steve Jenkin actually wrote before making your comment saying he “may have deserved” being told to get fucked.
Exactly Knowbody, couldn’t have said it better myself and I would have thought it obvious? Well obvious to those who are educated, anyway ;)
either way, I, again, CBF giving some unknown-to-me blogger some page counter hits.
Oh, OK. Thanks for your invalid and misinformed comments then, they obviously added immeasurably to the informed debate here…
@Nobby6
Seriously??
I’ve not seen an exact copy of this bloggers request,
How is that NOT what you said. You said you haven’t read his request. If you’re not going to read it before posting about it….don’t post about it.
And I notice you still apparently think it’s acceptable for a HUMAN BEING (let alone a public servant talking to a citizen) to treat another polite, if firm request with utter contempt and rudeness.
@seven_tech
I consider it perfectly acceptable that rudeness may be met with rudeness, why should one person be rude and the respondent must always walk on cotton tool – and IDGAF if its public office, or someone slagging off at one of my customer support guys.
There are two sides to every story. I think it musta been a slow news day for this article to be wrote, much more important things in life to worry about, than if some politician or their staffer, swore at someone.
Christ, mr popular @krudd is well known for it off-camera, as has been leaked into media ad youtube in the past.
I genuinely wonder if it was one of KRudds staffers who told this bloger to FO, if this thread would have even kicked off at all let alone dragged on this long.
Yes, we are taking exception to a political staffer being unprofessional in relation to questions being asked.
Did you notice there wasn’t a political twist?
Until you made it so *sigh*
@Nobby6
You haven’t read his blog piece, so how would you know it’s rude? And you think any form of behaviour constitutes being told to ‘get fucked’ by a public official? How about you pop down to Medicare and ask them a simple question they don’t know the answer to. I tell you what, if they tell you to get fucked, I’ll pay your next year’s worth of medical bills. Better yet, I’ll double it if they’re not either suspended or sacked immediately.
The fact that you think rudeness from a public official is acceptable, especially when you haven’t read the request, which was far from rude in that manner, confirms to me that people like you are part of the problem with the public service. People with attitudes such as yourself are the reason public service gets a bad name. I wouldn’t give a flying rats if it was a person AGAINST the NBN asking Anthony Albanese a question, that sort of reply is not, under any circumstances, acceptable.
What K Rudd does in his own time is his business. If he swears at a staffer who doesn’t deserve it, that’s their issue to take up. But if he or his staffers carried on like Ellis after being asked a legitimate question, is be the first to be baying for blood. It’s a disgrace.
Oh and by the way, the word is written, not wrote. You haven’t wrote something, you’ve written something.
I’m not going to ask if you’re serious, because clearly you are. As a career public servant, if an asshole taxpayer asked me ANY question, and my response was “get fucked”, I sure as hell know I wouldnt have that job for much longer.
Its just inappropriate for the position held. If you cant see that, then I’m sad for you. Really.
There seems to be a high rate among people who oppose the FTTP NBN of their responses consisting of nothing but personal attacks, as opposed to an actual argument.
Indeed Knowbody…
We seem to have a new crop of internet heroes who claim their comments are of more significance to anyone else’s because they have this or that qualification and/or experience (just like my old mate Rich at ZD)…
Of course, it’s easy to have internet qulifications (i.e. say whatever) and also ignore others here having quals and experience…
Look it’s all bullshit…
Because I have found those who oppose the NBN are universally politically driven and will endeavour to turn any positive NBN article negative and deflect from any negative NBN-alternative article… just like they have done here…
That works both ways.
I’m right you’re wrong, no ,you’re wrong., I’m right … my pipes bigger than yours blah blah blah
there clearly are zealots and bullshit artists on BOTH sides of the fence, live with it.
Indeed Nobby6…
It’s just odd though, that all the NBN detractors feel the need to come here to spread their lies, a place where people know better and make them look even sillier than usual :/
True indeed. People are entitled to their own opinion, they aren’t entitled to their own truth however.
The problem with stupid people is that their stupidity prevents them from understanding how stupid they are..
In fairness, that can be said of both sides, pro and against, some of the regular nbn fanbois here , well, its like listening to that cracked record repeating itself.
For the record I couldnt care less if I had either, I dont need TB/s speed from home, my dsl2 serves me perfectly fine, I’m happy to sit on it, if they pull it out and install fibre, I’ll be just as happy to use it. I would prefer my taxes go into health and law enforcement, but, the govt seems to think we can afford this luxury now, rather than a few years time when we might be in the black.
The world wont end if we get FTTH, and it wont end if we get FTTN, thats the jist of it.
Yes both sides, we heard you the first time…
But while you don’t care if $30B is wasted on dumb FttN we do.
It’s quite simple…
Thanks for coming.
$30 billion is a lot of money to spend on a network that won’t scale nearly as far into the future as it should.
The fact of the matter is the copper will have to be replaced with Fibre.
It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when. Just like the need for more than 640KB of RAM – which was at one point adequate for what people used computers to do.
$37 billion on a full Fibre network is a bargain in terms of its ability to serve the needs of people well into the future.
I would prefer my taxes go into health and law enforcement
You obviously haven’t actually read “some of the regular nbn fanbois here” comments. But why doesn’t that surprise me…
The NBN is not using your taxes.
Yeah they exist on both sides, but there’s a much higher frequency on the side of FTTN supporters or people who are anti-NBN in general.
Take the article we’re commenting on, for example. Steve Jenkins was requesting pretty standard information you could expect to ask from the Liberal party. They told him to “get fucked”.
And in the comments section, we have people like “dude” calling everyone unqualified while giving nothing of substance.
Lol @ Renai leMay heading for this story
I’m not very diplomatic in my old age, and I assume only adults read this site ;)
I was wondering why I couldn’t get to the front page at work with our nanny filter.
Just shows Ellis doesn’t have an answer he thinks anyone will like…
Steve who? … I’ve been in industry for 20 years and never heard of him, seems I’m not missing much tho.
…and we’ve never heard of you…but then again, anonymous handle and all…
Do you seriously expect everyone in every industry to know everyone else in that industry?
*facepalm*
Yes
Yes we do…
*facepalm confirmed*
it shouldnt matter whether you know of him or not, or missed him these last 20 y or whatever. regardless what you believe of bloggers, if you believe him one – that they are the new face of journalism, they are citizen/protojournalists or just some bloke waffling online – for me, the fact that hes gone – specifically to Malcolms office, seeking a first source, not second hand or hearsay, to back what hes got to say to his readership – whatever you think of his politics, i have to say that is an act of journalism.
to me, the response behaviour exhibited was poor form. if you dont accept Jenkins has any cred as a blogger at least accord him some as a voter, and that kind of response is offputting to me as one, to say the least. to my view modern politics has lost sight of the fact that contact with voters is an important part of the process – and i dont mean gadding about for the cameras at meet and greets here. and im certainly not singling out the Lnp either, Labor can be guilty of the same.
but actively saying get fucked? not a good look at all. and as another voter, i have to ask, is that the treatment id be getting if i had a question too? or another way: is that something id reward if he were my hire? no.
Turnbull’s relationship sours with the “tech community”? I beg to differ.
Delimiter and Whirlpool represent a minor part of the industry. Don’t forget that.
I work with a lot of and have a lot of friends in the tech community, in all areas, since I’ve been in a number of areas over the last 30plus years. I doubt if many would be involved in either Delimiter or Whirlpool. What the all think however is that the Coalition NBN plan is stupid and short sighted, and that Turnbull can’t be that stupid, he must see his plan is saving a few billion for a much larger cost to fix it down the track. They mostly think that if Abbott was out and Turnbull in that the NBN would remain substantially as is.
“Delimiter and Whirlpool represent a minor part of the industry. Don’t forget that”
I certainly would never put Delimiter in the same boat as whingepool, that’s a complete insult to Delim.
But when I read the constant fanboi rhetoric from Alex and seven_tech, I keep mistakenly thinking I am on whingepool.
But when I read the constant fanboi rhetoric from Alex and seven_tech, I keep mistakenly thinking I am on whingepool.
So are you here to troll Alex and seven_tech, or join in on informed, evidence-based (as per Renai’s rules) debate?
You seem like a sharp enough poster, I’m pretty sure that if next time you actually research the subject your about to hit “reply” on, you may actually be able to add something useful to the debate (either “for” or “against” whatever it is).
Cue Turnbull apology followed by excuses in 3….2….1…..
Oh wait, it’s only pro-NBN zealots. They’re not citizens. Doesn’t matter….
Cue Turnbull apology followed by excuses in 3….2….1…..
Oh wait, it’s only ‘pro-NBN zealots.’ They’re not constituents. And no one listens to them. Doesn’t matter….
Hey, I almost hope they roll it out. It will provide years of entertainment as each of the points raised by the “Zealots” becomes an obstacle to over come. Until the final point where the FTTN is replaced by FTTH. A nice section in Turnbull’s wiki page, describing the adventures of Mr Broadband and his folly at ignoring any potential problems with his broadband concept.
“but which is technically inferior in terms of the capabilities it can deliver.”
You forgot to add, “, will cost significantly more over the longer term Total Cost of Ownership and will eventually have to be replaced by a FTTP network.”
Class all the way by Turnbull and his staff.
More of the “born to rule” mentality and arrogance shown here.
http://www.twitter.com/TurnbullMalcolm/status/364955885694484481
@TurnbullMalcolm: Regret my staffer’s lapse into vulgar anglo-saxon in an email to a blogger. Charm remediation has been administered & equanimity restored.
So, basically, nothing but a slap over one knuckle of the weaker pinkie finger with a piece of limp celery…
@Michael Wyres
As I said, ‘pro-NBN zealots’ aren’t constituents. So doesn’t matter. Tech also generally too low on MSM radar for it to make an impact. If this had been an Abbott staffer over PPL….all hell would’ve broken loose.
There are two types of people here — those wanting to see the end of the career of a Turnbull staffer, and those that would like questions concerning a infrastructure investment which may well determine Australia’s ability to create wealth in the future.
Someone getting short with a blogger who reads like a real PITA. Turnbull not seeing that as a reason to sack someone. I can live with that.
But not answering reasonable questions about their proposal, that’s not acceptable. Telecommunications infrastructure will be one of the determinants of the future productivity of Australia, and thus the wealth of our children. This is serious stuff, and it’s clear that the staffer doesn’t take it seriously: to him it’s just a political tactic.
Any other infrastructure investment is more than happy to provide detail (in fact, overjoyed that someone took notice). As a good example the CEO of Origin was on Inside Business the other week explaining the economics of his electricity generation business in massive depth, even down to answering questions like what level of carbon tax would have made him plan for a non-coal future ($40/tonne).
“But not answering reasonable questions about their proposal, that’s not acceptable”
That’s the crux of it. It doesn’t matter the language used. For someone who said “their” NBN would be completely open and complained about the lack of openiness of the current one, he can’t even provide answers that are public knowledge for the current NBN. What is so wrong about asking wholesale prices?
If he claims retail prices will be lower, that would have to indicate lower wholesale prices. How has he been able to model retail price reductions with no wholesale figures? So he must have a rough figure.
Hrm.
I agree with the “dude” poster on the comments section.
I have certificates in IT (not at Uni level) but I understand networking to a degree, and thanks to other sites I have more understanding of costs vs savings on which policy.
I have also interests in Networking, Internet and Programming.
I have also been in IT Support for 10-12 Years (Professionally and Privately).
However, Coalition NBN still fails on small business (and this is where I work from).
You can have as many certificates you like, thing is the majority of you and those “armchair experts” at Whirlpool don’t know squat.
Perhaps these “armchair experts” should form a consortium and build the NBN themselves since they know more about it than anyone else.
Either way, Labour or the Coalition couldn’t build and icecream shop without fucking it up, the NBN is no different. You should be looking forward to using copper for the next 100 years.
And a media studies degree qualifies you?
It’s not Labor or Coalition building NBN, it’s NBN Co, and they use Private Sector.
So your pissing up the wrong tree there buddy.
Its the ways things are debated in the country that i find bizarre or probably its normal, but its pretty shitty…as it reflects on the political spin that is like no.1 these days…
Tell me why is it that lib and lab can just come up with solutions and throw it out there and you have these talking heads media journals and arm chair experts who take the bait and argue the two options given by two spin parties in that either one that wins is still a dud for the aus people as politicians dont care if it works or not but if it will show as a policy solution to a problem but not actually have to prove that it is really a solution.
That’s why it is so shit and why regardless of if nbn of coalition or labor wins a dud solution will always be a dud…and who suffers? Is this what its all about? And if u continue like this…. I fail to see how there is leadership and any prospects for progress unless projects are done by private sector which have risk….
As such…as we will experience would be a decade of just talking points … Which i think will be the way of NDIS NAPLAN NBN etc…of so called initiatives that are feasible … Its the new spin machine of zero sum gain
@Dude
So the 42 000 people already on the built NBN (excluding Satellite customers) and the 200K that can get it right now if they want, see the NBN as “a dud” do they?
Your opinion may be that it’s a dud. The telecommunications industry believes otherwise. It is delayed and it is likely to cost some 10% more than originally budgeted. That does not mean it is a dud. It is producing real, tangible upgrades to Australian BB and will go ON doing so for decades.
You don’t cancel you house when the roof costs 10% more than thought to ensure robustability and you have to spend more on your carpets to make sure they stay clean for 25 years. You spend the money and take the hit to ensure quality and longevity.
Senate Estimates came up with it ages ago with FTTP, look up ” Inquiry into Broadband Competition” it was done in 2003 completed in 2004.
It was only Coalition Party that did zero of it.
And in that comment you have proved that your opinion on this matter is not weighted by evidence, because had you actually been as versed in this matter as you originally claimed you would be aware of the various initiative over the years prior to the NBN that discussed this problem at length and tried to come up with a fessiable solution, the KPMG-McKinsey Implementation Study to name one, and Inquiry into Broadband Competition to name another brought up by Daniel above.
It is possible you only just entered into the NBN debate and were not aware of these documents and discussions, which is considerably ironic when you take into account all that up in arms about “experience” and “qualifications”. How can you bad mouth people for lack of understanding of an area while not actually understanding the thing they are debating and keep a straight face is beyond me.
I strongly suggest, “Dude”, that you educate yourself on the history of the NBN so as to actually understand what it is you are debating before you can comment again. We have, over various posts, given you a few places to start, and a few talking points to get yourself thinking; namely “What precisely is wrong with the current NBN implementation?”
I, as a supporter of the NBN, can answer that question with some very valid criticisms, however, if I were to relay them to you here as that would trivialise the exercise I have presented to you.
@Nightkaos & Dude
I strongly suggest, “Dude”, that you educate yourself on the history of the NBN so as to actually understand what it is you are debating before you can comment again.
He can start here if he likes:
http://nbninfo.blogspot.com.au/p/nbn-history.html
I did this up a while ago. References are all there. Shameless plug :P
That’s pretty good, but I wouldn’t have said it was without politics.
Indeed it read Labor friendly to me. Not massively, and certainly not negative towards the Coalition. But very positive towards K Rudd especially.
who cares what qualifications you have, all of us are entitled to voice our opinion and to attempt to verify the facts from the source – mr turnbulls office, specifically the person allegedly who created this “plan”
im actually more annoyed with the commsday response that a blog needs to be politically equal. screw that, none of us are real media, were social media, were biased and we want answers to see if weve screwed up or if were being fed bullshit.
if commsday want sit on the fence with a post up their arse printing “he said/she said” articles of no actual substance or journalistic talent required then thats their prerogative, but a blogger can post whatever the hell they want, even if it is all seriously one sided, so long as its accurate who gives a toss, im sure there are liberal bloggers out there that just constantly rip into the alp nbn and praise the coalition plan.
I’ve never met anyone in IT so sensitive about the language they hear or have hurled at them and I’ve been in IT for 20 years in this country. Get over it.
My concern with IT people being defensive of the NBN is that the IT industry here is making a killing from this project. Cost scrutiny is non existent and vendors are making great money albeit under sometimes tough conditions.
By the way I’m pro NBN and I don’t care what technology is used as it will be obsolete by the time either party finishes rolling it out.
NBN uses Fibre, the same fibre that can do 10Gbps down.
However you cannot do this on Coalition NBN because the Coalition NBN uses COPPER.
The current NBNco FTTP delivers a 2.488 Gb/s data stream to every house connected, right now.
The current NBNco FTTP accepts a 1.244 Gbp/s data stream from every house connected right now.
The “plan” speed experienced by the customer on the NBN is selected by software setting in the box which can be set anywhere between 12/1 Mb/s to the full 2.488/ 1.244 Mb/s.
When comparing FTTN to FTTP the ONLY speed that makes sense to use is the connection speed to the house since this is the only speed that is set by the network itself rather than user choice.
That is 25Mb/s vs 2.488Gb/s for FTTN vs FTTP.
When you compare the cost of upgrading the two networks, the limiting cost of FTTP is the price of high speed lasers, lasers capable of orders of magnitude higher speeds are available, but are too expensive for domestic use. This will change as demand drives production and costs fall.
The limiting factor for FTTN is the laws of physics themselves as best expressed in Shannon’s law which tells us is already close to the limit for copper. Each small increase from now on will require exponential increases of resources to overcome.
This is demonstrated in G-Fast which can only offer further speed gains over copper medium by removing some of that copper by making line lengths shorter.
Garry,
Fibre optic communication has been in use since the 1970s, it’s still in use today and will be for the foreseeable future. The only real changes to the technology have taken place at either end of the fibre run, which can be replaced without having to lay new cable. This technology will not be obsolete for at least 50 years.
My concern with IT people being defensive of the NBN is that the IT industry here is making a killing from this project.
You meant the same project where the contractors complain the aren’t paid enough, and one major company went bust due to mismanagement?
Thanks for playing…
I guess the whole thing comes down to this. Answering questions should not be a problem.
You can make all the excuses in the world. “They are ignorant”, “fuck off”, “zealots”, but in the end, why not answer the questions?
Treating people who have been in IT since the 70s and 80s with contempt, rather than answering them, well, you have to wonder why the questions aren’t being answered. Especially if many people have been asking them.
“I guess the whole thing comes down to this. Answering questions should not be a problem.”
It’s only a problem if you don’t have answers to Policy questions. That’s okay, though, because you can simply respond with “fuck off” instead.
Well they should have answer to many of the questions asked.
For example, wholesal pricing. How do you claim retail prices are $X cheaper a year for the customer without having some idea what your wholesale pricing is?
The only way I can think of is they are scaling the wholesale pricing by the CAPEX. If they have just done that they are just being stupid. It’s all very well having FTTH which is paid off over a period to 2030 or 2040, but for their calculation to work they need the FTTN network to either be sufficient til it’s paid off, or no major extra CAPEX needed to upgrades. An assumption of FTTN having still being around in 2030-2040 is rediculous.
Gee this article seems to have attracted new extremist naysayers, hmm where are the old ones *sigh*
i’m just a guy from the street and even i know Fibre is superior to Copper in every which way and is the standard for now and the near future in data communications.
dude: “my CV reads a bit like Bachelor degree in electronics engineering 15 yrs in the telecoms industry in various professional roles in large telcos and equipment vendors.. experience in construction, design, technology, project management and business.”
Renai LeMay: “I have half a degree in business information technology, and trained as a Linux/Unix systems administrator.”
Michael Wyres: “Similarly, I have a degree in pure computing, numerous industry accreditations, and having been working in IT in one form or another since 1994, the last seven of which has been primarily in telecommunications or telecommunications-related systems…”
Goresh: “I have worked in the ICT industry since 1975.”
Francis Young: “My two cents, ICT professional since 1981, internet user since 1982 on a 300 bps acoustic coupler.”
Lionel: “Internet in 82? I used the local Australian university connections since the late 70s … I have been managing large projects since the 80s.”
Daniel: “I have certificates in IT (not at Uni level) but I understand networking to a degree, and thanks to other sites I have more understanding of costs vs savings on which policy.”
Garry: “I’ve been in IT for 20 years in this country”
What has this thread turned into?
Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes, from a different Lynch:
“But this is silly – we could sit here all night contrasting cock lengths. I say mine is five feet long, you say yours is six, and shoots fire upon command.”
Requin to Locke Lamora, from Red Sea Under Red Skies by Scott Lynch.
:P
The internet in 82, was more a “Are you sure?” Unless he lived in the US it doesn’t seem possible.
I don’t think it’s about cock size or anything. I have rarely mentioned anything in the past and I know others haven’t either.
It is simply to point out that not everyone who is reading these posts and commenting are 12 year old whirlpoolers. Given the turn the “dude”‘s post have turned I’d suspect he is simply a troll and in keeping with this article, probably nothing more than “Get fucked”
American Express were using a private connection to what became the internet in Australia in the 80’s – (possibly even in the 70’s) – long before it became more readily available with the advent of AARnet in 1989/1990.
OK, I wasn’t aware of that. He could have worked for a company that had their own private connection.
Now that everyone is putting their qualifications on the line, I will put mine.
I don’t have any, well at least in telecommunication, I.T. etc.
I have not got a clue.
“Dude” has not got a clue.
It takes one, me to know one, Dude.
Well heres another with no qualifications in IT or communications.My only qualifications are in common bloody sense.
I am an Unqualified Accountant and also ,and better still an unqualified chippie..
After I pissed the desk off and grabbed a hammer I thought ,cripes this GJ Coles bugger must be a good bloke..Look how cheap his hammers and sliding squares are,etc.. So I came to the job looking resplendent in my new sliding squate and El cheapo hammer..Well I was buggered if I knew why my brand new super doper hammer wasn’t quite as efficient as the other guys in knocking nails in(No Gins in them days) and was aghast at the bent shape the hammer assumed when I tried to pull a nail out of a Hardwood stud..
My sliding square saw to it that when I cut the timber it was no where near bloody square.It took some time for me to work things out despite the derisive laughter from me chippie mates.And then Mr Makita came to my rescue ,despite the bugger charging me a veritable fortune for a couple of simple tools .Yes, the nails became harder and the timber softer with a proper hammer.The cut pieces of timber fitted perfectly square when marked by a square ,square, if you get my drift..
So ,(Bloody True,I am not making this up)every time Turnbill comes up and tries to shortchange us by rabbitting on with his inferior NBN ,Mr G.J. Coles reincarnates himself and tells me yafhh man go with the flow .look how much money you MAY save if you go El Cheapo..
And I rise up and tell him “Go Fornicate yourself ,and take Turn on the bull with you..
The troll is strong in this one..
Also… what? *tries to decipher as he would an undiscovered language*
iv read some of steves blog and there are some areas where he is quite ignorant yet still makes out like his views are fact. not many areas, but some that iv dealt with personally so I know for a fact he is wrong. that tainted the rest of his blog for me. doesn’t excuse what he was told here, just saying he aint that much of a guru
Yes, you’re right, qualifications are irrelevant. You just need an iPhone and Wikipedia right?
For the proponents against book learnin’, I’m sure you’re all more than happy to have someone perform surgery on you or represent you in court without a degree, accreditation and admission, right? Build a bridge without completing your degree in Civil Engineering? Sure, why not.
Strawman much? My point was, as was said: experience is a measure of competency, but it isn’t the only one.
Why is this a strawman? Qualifications are not equal to experience. So back to my point: there is another measure. You think an intern at a hospital, who is by definition inexperienced, isn’t going to be competent enough to trust to do a simple procedure?
Or another example: an experimental procedure; never been done before. The doctor has no experience: no one does. In that situation how do you measure their competency?
The strawman is also one that he is claiming that having an opinion is the same as operating on someone.
I am allowed to have an opinion that keyhole surgery is safer than the alternatives due to reduced risk. I can use my own logic to determine that the smaller wound will reduce exposure to infection and decrease recovery time.
I have barely stepped foot into a medical school (I have literally stepped foot into one when at uni – that’s it!) but it doesn’t mean my opinion can be equated even slightly with me performing keyhole surgery. I sure as shit ‘aint qualified to performe surgery.
In the same way that even with all my qualifications and experience in the IT industry (whatever they may be) I can’t build an NBN. I can’t rollout a 40 billion dollar telecommunications network. I can’t with commercial accuracy predict take-up rates. But just like keyhole surgery, I can clearly enumerate the differences between 2 options, and declare an informed opinion.
+1
Most succinctly put…
I’m far more likely to hire say a 22yo with some experience AND can demonstrate to me they know their stuff, than a 22yo who just finished uni with 10 degrees but has no real world experience.
SteveJ has every reason to ask about the wholesale charges, however I have the feeling the Liberals haven’t actually compiled that information. Not sure how you can make a policy without knowing the full costs to the tax payers and end users, and yet the Liberal party have with their FTTN policy.
Perhaps it’s time for Turnbull to tell Stephen Ellis to get f*cked, after all what will happen if companies contracted to build the FTTN network get those sorts of answers ?
Labour’s NBN suffers from problems with trusting the private sector to build it efficiently at a reasonable cost, and being 100% reliant on Telstra fixing it’s pits. The Liberal plan commits a far worse sin, that of choosing a technology that is both inferior and just as expensive, its a totally impractical solution for this country and doesn’t even work well on paper.
Also the only reason the labour plan has any chance of being paid off is the recognition that it must end up being a monopoly provider of wholesale services.
The LNP wants us to believe that it can cost the same amount of money, and compete commercially.
If nothing else, this component is the most irresponsible one. Fuck the technology concerns, its the spending of 34 billion dollars (inclusive of 4 billion already spent) for a plan that may not even pay itself off.
To me it’s quite obvious why that question received the F-Off response.
Why would Turnbull care about the running or eventual wholesale costs & the resulting charges to consumers if he can continue sweeping them under the carpet up to the election date?
His goal is to keep his stated construction costs to a minimum & thereby sell the policy to the public after which it becomes a case of the market place decides & either taxpayer subsidies or user pays for the extras involved.
@dude
These guys have a couple of degrees too….
Michael (Mike) Quigley
Chief Executive Officer and Director of NBN Co
Mr Quigley was educated at the University of NSW and graduated with a Bachelor of Science majoring in Mathematics and Physics, and a Bachelor of Engineering in Telecommunications.
Ralph Steffens
Chief Operating Officer NBN
Most recently, Mr Steffens spent eight years at BT Group, prior to that, he was Director of Network Engineering for COLT Group S.A., a pan-European company that successfully built metropolitan fibre networks across 32 cities in 13 European countries, and a long-distance fibre transit network covering 15,000 kilometres.
Mr Steffens holds a Diploma in Engineering majoring in Electrical Engineering and Telecommunications from Fachhochshule Darmstadt, University of Applied Sciences, Hesse, Germany.
Gary McLaren
Chief Technology Officer
Mr McLaren has 25 years experience in the telecommunications industry with senior engineering roles at Telstra and Siemens. He was a member of the Senior Management Team at Request DSL which successfully rolled out one of Australian’s first competitive DSL broadband networks between 2000 and 2004, before the company was merged with PowerTel.
From 2004, Mr McLaren provided consulting services to various companies in the telecommunications and IT sectors with an emphasis on commercialisation of new technologies. These companies included Optus, Telecom Fiji and Telecom NZ.
He has degrees in Engineering and Law from the University of Melbourne.
NBN has employed dozens of people with degrees in Communications and Engineering and have 100s of years of experience between them.
Indeed MikeK…
I’d suggest (having seen ‘others’ here wth the same ideology as these new naysayers) either no response or a complete contradiction regarding qualifications and experience is imminent…
I have a bronze swimming certificate.
Oh… if only it were copper ;)
Copper and water don’t mix though :(
Good point :)
As someone who is a very qualified taxpayer I find it disgusting that the LNP want to waste money doing a quick and dirty job with only very short term prospects in mind.
‘The Liberal plan commits a far worse sin, that of choosing a technology that is both inferior and just as expensive, its a totally impractical solution for this country and doesn’t even work well on paper.’
Telstra – doesn’t want the NBN to succeed (lets charge for rotting copper for another 100years)
Foxtel – doesn’t want the NBN to succeed ( but teh free to air web tv might effect my empire, this will not do. )
Liberals – doesn’t want the NBN to succeed ( lets kill this white elephant, who needs fast internet? )
The only Great White Elephant in the room is Abbott & Co and all self serving greedy mongrels attached.
So all agreed. 2 Issues.
1:- SteveJ’s Question whilst possibly could have been framed better is valid, and a response should be expected.
2:- There is no excuse for someone to answer in that manner. If it occurred in a corporation there would be grounds for dismissal.
Mr Turnbull’s flippant response is further reason for the loss of respect in my opinion.
Spot on.
+1
I am a passingly intelligent Australian with a modicum of common sense and as such after having read everything I can get my hands on about competing NBN technologies I have come to the conclusion that FTTP is most certainly the way to go for so many reasons that should never have to be explained to all these super people with their wondrous degrees and lifetimes of experience in the “Industry”!
As for the tossers that carry on about cost… No one complained about cost of the Snowy River project did they… It’s called a “nation building” project.
PS I consider myself a swinging voter… hence I did my own research… Trust No one… lol
You mean you’re voting based on an objective analysis of the parties policies instead of clinging to one party like a barnacle? How outrageous!
I know right! How dare I think and look at policies instead of personalities! Hahaha
If you can’t be bothered reading what he actually said, your claim that he “may have deserved” to be told to “get fucked” is pretty useless.
Whoops, this was meant to be a reply to Nobby6
The absolutely vital point that everybody seems to miss is that the Govt. NBN will be charging potential phone and internet suppliers $27.00 for each household they sign-up after each connection is completed. This $27 price is for Fibre to the House, Wireless or Satellite Connection. Each connected customer will then have unfettered access to the one Australia-Wide NBN network. This is the price if the home is in North Sydney or Alice Springs. This is the one enormous difference between the NBN and the Liberal proposal. Abbott’s System would introduce widely different pricing per connection depending on your geographic location in Australia. It would also not be one network but a large number of (supposedly) compatible networks who would pay for their chosen locale by tender. This would drive up the price per connection. The NBN contractors suggest that at $27 cost per connection the suppliers could be offering Internet etc. starting at $29.99 and moving upwards as higher and higher speeds and capacities are chosen by the customer. This $27 connection is what Foxtel fears.
@Terence
While I agree wholeheartedly with your point….just for the sake of keeping it factual, it’s actually $24 :) $27 is for the 25Mbps tier, not the 12Mbps.
I can only offer a view based on my current situation, as a User located some 4km from the “node” who has a maximum connection speed 4463 Kb downstream and 993kb upstream, with colleagues located much closer to the node getting 20mb plus. I live in a capital city suburb. I reckon that myself, and the several thousand other in the same location are evidence of the shortcomings of the lib version of NBN. The reliance on copper for the last leg is not going to meet the needs of the population in my opinion.
I have some 20+ years of ICT experience, and work in an organisation that runs a nationwide WAN, so I have a basic understanding. Acknowledging that there is a cost to a full fibre situation also needs to consider the opportunity cost that the limitations of the libs solution offers. At some point it is also necessary to acknowledge the rate of growth in bandwidth consumption, both by people and the “Internet of things”, especially in the rural areas.
It is my view that if we are to move into the realm of a digital economy that the use of copper will not suffice. That said, as a government contract, there is a likelihood that opportunities to cut costs on a full fibre solution do exist, but I am not certain labor has the necessary skills to ensure that the appropriate governance and quality measures are put in place to avoid the rorts.
A rather nasty quandary from my perspective.
With respect to the staffers response, just not acceptable in this day and age
“nothing to see here, move along” – I don’t think so. Profanity aside, Turnbull needs to explain the Ellis statement “….the NBN stands to be greatly modified…”. What changes does Ellis know about that Turnbull is saving until after the election?
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