NBN vs HSR

[HubertCumberdale]

That all time "favorite" High Speed Rail is back on the table yet again. I'm guessing there will be much debate about this issue too just like the NBN and I imagine there will be people saying we should sacrifice one for the other and others will say we should do both or neither. It'll be interesting to see what the coalition have to say about it, will they stick to their "Stop the waste! We cant afford $100 billion!" howler monkey rhetoric or will they say "Cancel the NBN, that money should go towards HSR".

I've always said there is no reason why we can do both. Both projects have the potential to get more people off the roads and both projects will improve Australia. It seems this HSR talk has been taking a while though, I remember when it was called VFT... apparently it meant Very Fast Train So if I had to pick I'd say go with the NBN mostly because the project is already happening.

[Goddy]

The NBN has already started; To cancel it now would be a very dumb thing to do.

The HSR is a bit of a grey area for me anyway; Why spend over 100 dollars to travel from Brisbane to Melbourne by train when you can fly for roughly the same price for half the time.

[Dean Harding]

Personally, I'd prefer to take the train. Especially if you can just hop on at a regular station. The hassle of getting to the airport, checking in, etc etc means the flight time is essentially doubled anyway. A train is a more relaxing form of travel anyway.

If they added free Wi-Fi internet I'd be all set!

Though personally, I think the chances of this getting off the ground are much lower than the NBN...

[NightKhaos]

I fundamentally opposed to any HSR solution if it uses conventional rail. 350km/h is just not fast enough considering the distance we will be travelling.

We should be opting for an EMS based solution (500km/h). Of course that'll likely add to price tag because we cannot recycle any existing infrastructure to save costs, however such technology will reduce the amount of land required to run the rail because current EMS based solutions (Transrapid) are above grade. Especially significant for areas of the network which run over farmland.

They should purchase the rights to land corridor and get the ball rolling, but seriously, of the two, I'd much prefer to see the NBN completed.

[HubertCumberdale]

Interesting responses. I certainly can see the benefits of HSR even though I am no much of a traveler. I also think one important aspect is tourism. If it makes travel easier for tourists from other countries it could be very beneficial. That can also apply to the NBN. People may want to backup their holiday snapshots as they go, cant really to that in an effective way with the current network.

[Jeff Petre]

HSR is great, in principle. I very much enjoyed the service while living in Europe, but the simple fact is is that our geography is going to make any long distance rail system very expensive. Comparisons to the NBN fall down in a few areas, but the biggest one is that the NBN impacts every single resident (hopefully positively), whereas the HSR proposal only covers those in a small corridor down the east coast.

[Jeremy Kime]

It'll be interesting to see what the coalition have to say about it, will they stick to their "Stop the waste! We cant afford $100 billion!" howler monkey rhetoric or will they say "Cancel the NBN, that money should go towards HSR".

AFAIK Labor aren't keen on this idea either, they only commissioned the study to shut up the Greens. There have already been studies showing it just isn't commercially viable, and probably won't be for a very long time, if ever. It would have to be cheaper than flying before anyone would use it, and given how cheap flights have got lately that doesn't give you a lot of revenue to recover the enormous capital cost.

[Jeremy Kime]

We should be opting for an EMS based solution (500km/h).

500km/h? Meh. Vactrains are the new hotness: mach 5 and up. That should get you from Sydney to Melbourne quick smart!

Vactrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course someone will have to build one first to prove it actually works, but this whole topic is pie in the sky anyway.

[Dean Harding]

Do I dare post the ultimate in terrestrial transportation?



Yes I do!

[Renai]

Having ridden on Japan's Shinkansen, my answer to whether Australia should build a high-speed rail network is a resounding "**** yeah". I personally would go to the other major east coast cities a great deal more regularly if I could go there by speedy train rather than by plane ... my ears do not handle aeroplane air pressure changes very well, and I just prefer rail travel over road.

Of course ... I'd like a nationwide fibre network too Can we have both?

[Jeff Petre]

I love HSR - I spent much of my time while I was living in the UK, hoping around Europe on the various HSR systems. I loved the German ICE - the to-the-second arrivals, the comfort, the ease of booking and travel, it was all brilliant. But ...

unless we see a business case that supports the development, I don't think it's going to happen. The costs here are mostly to do with the land reclaimation, and those costs are only going higher and higher. Also, the NIMBY factor is strong, especially in Sydney ... there are bound to be some pressure groups who crawl out of the woodwork and demand the project is halted due to some anachronistic issue they have about too much noise/too much smell/not the right colour/too many bogans on trains/etc.

Much as I'd love to see it, I think we may have missed our chance to do this without the enourmous bill ...

[murray_francis]

"It would be anti-competitive to decommission the existing rail network, so we propose to incorporate all existing rail assets into the new HSR system. This may result in passengers changing trains several times throughout the journey, and the maximum speed of 350 km/hr will only be obtainable for a part of the journey" said Malcolm Turnbull. "However, most importantly, it will come at a very significant saving to the Australian taxpayers."

EDIT: Note - never actually said by MT.

[NightKhaos]

AFAIK Labor aren't keen on this idea either, they only commissioned the study to shut up the Greens. There have already been studies showing it just isn't commercially viable, and probably won't be for a very long time, if ever. It would have to be cheaper than flying before anyone would use it, and given how cheap flights have got lately that doesn't give you a lot of revenue to recover the enormous capital cost.

The same could be said about the NBN with cheap Broadband plans from likes of TPG. Just like they should be, but aren't for some reason, they would build the network without expecting direct returns from it. Of course with the budget how it is they can't afford it, which is unfortunate, and part of the reason the NBN plans are so expensive relative to ADSL2+ services.

500km/h? Meh. Vactrains are the new hotness: mach 5 and up. That should get you from Sydney to Melbourne quick smart!

VacTrains are a science fiction "What if?", nothing more. Even if we had to technology to build and maintain them they are very, very expensive. At a bare minimum you're talking about what amounts to a 2 meter radius pressurised cylinder filled with helium around 2000 km long, including full length linear accelerators. We can do EMS right now, and at comparable cost to conventional rail. Also there is the acceleration time.

Let us assume that you can accelerate to Mach 5, i.e. 1700 m/s. Let's further assume for comfort you limit the acceleration to 4m/s^2 it will take you 360km to get up to full velocity, putting a lower bound on the travel between two cities.

Of course ... I'd like a nationwide fibre network too Can we have both?

I think you need to ask yourself, which you prefer to get first, for me the answer to that question is the NBN.

Much as I'd love to see it, I think we may have missed our chance to do this without the enourmous bill ...

I think you're right. I think we should be considering buying the cirtical (i.e. Sydney) parts of the route anyway and hold them as crown assets for a future project.

"It would be anti-competitive to decommission the existing rail network, so we propose to incorporate all existing rail assets into the new HSR system. This may result in passengers changing trains several times throughout the journey, and the maximum speed of 350 km/hr will only be obtainable for a part of the journey" said Malcolm Turnbull. "However, most importantly, it will come at a very significant saving to the Australian taxpayers."

Now, if he means a CityRail or equivalent to say Sydney Terminal, then that is obvious, but if he's implying say "we can't afford to build a route through Sydney so we won't bother" then I don't actually see the point of the project.

[senectus]

The answer would be yes to both... This country needs to stop being so afraid of getting in debt when it comes to building infrastructure.

[Renai]

The answer would be yes to both... This country needs to stop being so afraid of getting in debt when it comes to building infrastructure.

+1 to this. It's investment, not cost.

[Insomniac]

Having ridden on Japan's Shinkansen, my answer to whether Australia should build a high-speed rail network is a resounding "**** yeah". I personally would go to the other major east coast cities a great deal more regularly if I could go there by speedy train rather than by plane ... my ears do not handle aeroplane air pressure changes very well, and I just prefer rail travel over road.

Of course ... I'd like a nationwide fibre network too Can we have both?

Having also ridden Japan's amazing "bullet trains" I'm with you on this one. However given I live in the only state in Australia without passenger trains, it would make zero difference to my life if Australia built a similar HSR system to Japan's anyway. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be awesome, but the selfish dude inside me knows he will benefit from fibre a lot more than a train system I'd rarely use.

I also genuinely believe the NBN will create a a lot more opportunities for working at home too, cutting down on the need for many people to commute, as well as bridging the digital devide between regional and metropolitan areas. In reality I think the NBN has a lot more to offer Australia given everyone will have access to it.

[Renai]

@Insomniac

Perhaps we need some sort of high-speed underwater tunnel aka what the UK and France have, across to Tasmania from the mainland

[NightKhaos]

@Insomniac

Perhaps we need some sort of high-speed underwater tunnel aka what the UK and France have, across to Tasmania from the mainland

Pfft. Small scale. How about to Auckland from Sydney? And if we're going to do that we might as well make it a Vacuum Tunnel.

[looktall]

How about to Auckland from Sydney?

no way.
that would make it even easier for them to get here.

[Renai]

Pfft. Small scale. How about to Auckland from Sydney? And if we're going to do that we might as well make it a Vacuum Tunnel.

Frankly I am still hanging out for personal transportation mats (think Tower of Glass by Robert Silverberg ... yes I am a science fiction nerd). Would really cut down the commute.

[Renai]

Pfft. Small scale. How about to Auckland from Sydney? And if we're going to do that we might as well make it a Vacuum Tunnel.

Actually, now that I think about it, what would this do to Abbott's worries about stopping the boats??? Panic!!

[NightKhaos]

no way.
that would make it even easier for them to get here.

We're already here.

Frankly I am still hanging out for personal transportation mats (think Tower of Glass by Robert Silverberg ... yes I am a science fiction nerd). Would really cut down the commute.

Pfft. Personal ZDWs (Zero Depth Wormholes) would be better, or Teleportation Sphere.

Actually, now that I think about it, what would this do to Abbott's worries about stopping the boats??? Panic!!

They're not boats, they're trains.

[looktall]

We're already here.

precisely.
let's not make it any easier for them to get to the west island.

[umbria]

Both will happen. This is like asking whether we will pay for health or education from this year's budget.

Right now the fibre is being rolled out, and routes for an east-coast high speed rail line are being researched. About the time the NBN is finished we should expect to see physical work starting on the rail project.

By then, too, people and businesses will be repopulating the regional areas along the route, because the NBN is meeting their communications needs instead of the isolation the bush has come to expect.

[Renai]

We're already here.

Pfft. Personal ZDWs (Zero Depth Wormholes) would be better, or Teleportation Sphere.

They're not boats, they're trains.

Oh man, can you imagine Abbot using the tagline "Stop the trains"?? Would be hilarious.