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  • News, Telecommunications - Written by on Thursday, February 14, 2013 16:11 - 96 Comments

    Coalition FTTN would ignore HFC areas: Conroy

    news Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has challenged Shadow Minister Malcolm Turnbull to confirm his rival broadband policy would not see fibre to the node technology immediately deployed to areas already covered by the HFC cable networks operated by Telstra and Optus, despite the fact that few use the ageing HFC networks.

    The Coalition has not formally released its rival broadband policy yet, although Opposition Leader Tony Abbott several weeks ago confirmed the Coalition would take Turnbull’s fibre to the node-based broadband plan to the Federal Election as its broadband policy, stacking it up against the much more comprehensive fibre to the premise-based model already being implemented by the current Labor Government.

    Speaking to the press in Sydney this morning, Conroy pointed out that some key details of the Coalition’s FTTN vision as put together by Turnbull could already be anticipated.

    For example, he pointed out that in August 2011, Turnbull gave a major speech to the National Press Club regarding his preference for fibre to the node technology. In the speech, Conroy reminded journalists, Turnbull had stated that the Coalition’s approach in rolling out fibre to the node technology in Telstra’s existing copper network would see those areas outside the HFC cable footprint prioritised.

    “… one must ask why on earth Labor and NBN Co want to overbuild and decommission the HFC pay TV cable network that passes 28 per cent of Australian premises,” said Turnbull at the time (the full speech is available online). “The network is already providing up to 100Mbps in Melbourne. It could do so elsewhere if Telstra is provided with the certainty required to make the modest investment needed.”

    “Our approach to what I will call, for want of a better term, suburban and regional Australia – those areas that are neither so built-up that they are within the HFC footprint, nor so remote that fixed wireless and satellite are the only real option – will be to invite private sector companies to deliver wholesale broadband services within the designated areas.”

    Conroy said the Coalition’s fibre to the node model essentially represented it adopting Labor’s original FTTN NBN policy, which it took to the 2007 Federal Election and then abandoned on the advice of a panel of experts as being unviable.

    “But there’s a lot of questions that Malcolm Turnbull won’t just answer,” Conroy added. A very simple one: He said at the Press Club that they wouldn’t build fibre to the node in the HFC footprint. Is that still their policy? Because what they’ve got at the moment is a copper to the home policy. They’re going to keep the copper in the ground, and keep using the copper.”

    In a broad sense, Labor’s own FTTP policy will also see areas outside the HFC cable networks (which extend through select parts of Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne) focused on first, as part of a deal with independent MPs at the 2010 Federal Election which is seeing the NBN deployed from the ‘outside in’ to rural and outer metropolitan areas first.

    However, it will ultimately see all areas covered by the HFC cable infrastructure upgraded as the NBN’s FTTP cables replace the ageing HFC network in the years to 2021. All those customers currently using HFC cable will be migrated to the NBN.

    The HFC cable infrastructure is capable of supporting speeds up to 100Mbps, and Telstra and Optus have upgraded the infrastructure to a certain level in order to support these kinds of speeds. However, the technology is considered by many to be broadly unsuitable for Australia’s future telecommunications needs, as it does not function well under heavy shared utilisation, and many renting so-called multi-dwelling units such as apartments are unable to have it connected as it requires a whole block of apartments to be hooked up.

    Turnbull’s office has been invited to respond to Conroy’s claims; this article will be updated with any response the Coalition provides.

    In general Conroy said it was time for the Coalition to release its full broadband policy so that proper debate could occur regarding its details before the September Federal Election. “Malcolm Turnbull told the Financial Review that he had a fully costed policy,” Conroy said. “We keep hearing it’s going to be released, but this is a big infrastructure project. Tey should do the decent thing. If they’ve got a fully costed policy, as they keep boasting, they should release it … Malcolm Turnbull continues to spin, and spin and spin. He says there should be less spin in politics. Well, he should start with himself. He should come clean and release the broadband policy. Lets release it; let’s have a debate about it.”

    Turnbull has said that the full cost of the Coalition’s rival NBN policy could not be calculated until the Coalition was able to get full access to NBN Co’s finances, so that it could know what contracts the company had locked future governments into.

    “As for this claim that you need to open up the NBN books, the cost of a fibre to the node policy is relatively well-known,” said Conroy. “It’s not hard to cost how many cabinets, how close will those cabinets be to individual homes, it’s not a matter of needing the NBN books open to answer those questions.”

    opinion/analysis
    Conroy had a huge spray at Turnbull and the Coalition this morning, as is his want, and if you watch the video above, I think you’ll agree it’s glorious to behold. This is a Communications Minister who, after more than five years at the top, is pretty much the complete master of his portfolio. He knows how to needle the Coalition on this issue where it hurts, and who can blame him? It’s true the Coalition’s rival NBN policy (such as we’ve seen of it) is full of holes, and we’ve also seen a variety of inconsistent statements from senior Coalition politicians on the issue.

    Right now, Labor is onto a popular winner with the NBN, and Conroy knows it.

    However, I should also say at this point that I don’t expect the Coalition’s rival NBN policy to focus on the HFC cable networks. I don’t really have any evidence for this (damn me for that if you will!), but my strong suspicion is that Turnbull understands, and Abbott increasingly understands, that the Coalition will not be able to walk away from NBN Co or the company’s superstructure as a whole.

    I think what we’ll see from the Coalition in terms of its NBN policy is a very similar policy to Labor’s FTTP NBN program, but featuring FTTN, as fast a rollout as possible (including to city areas) and similar wireless and satellite provisions for the bush. A lot has happened since Turnbull’s 2011 Press Club speech about his rival broadband plans; and I think the Member for Wentworth understands now the futility of focusing on HFC cable. Upgrading the HFC cable networks may be a part of Turnbull’s plans; but I doubt they’ll be the centrepiece, and I doubt Australia’s major cities will go long without a FTTN upgrade, as Conroy suggested this morning.

    Conroy’s right; Turnbull needs to release the details of the Coalition’s NBN policy. But I suspect those details won’t reveal the complete mess Conroy is expecting.

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    1. Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:13 pm | Permalink |

      At the beginning of the video Conroy is commenting on the new beard I am growing this year. I have decided this year is ‘beard year’ as most of my friends are now sporting one :)

      • midspace
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:46 pm | Permalink |

        Photos!

        Or a least update your avatar!

        • Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink |

          • nonny-moose
            Posted 14/02/2013 at 8:44 pm | Permalink |

            hahaha the bloke on the left vaguely looks like my brother, who for complex reasons is sporting a beard about 5x that. makes him look rather Ned Kelly…..(!)

            as for the video, Youtube has atrocious understanding of the aussie accent, is it possible someone could knock up a transcript of it? i could lipread some and can understand other patches of it but not the whole (full disclosure, i am hearing impaired, and familiarity with ones speaking style counts for a lot. im not at all familiar with Conroy…). any transcript should start from 0.00 – that was one of the bits i had trouble with actually…..

          • midspace
            Posted 18/02/2013 at 9:42 am | Permalink |
          • midspace
            Posted 18/02/2013 at 9:43 am | Permalink |

            You can do better than that!

            http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3073/renaihige.jpg

    2. Mr Creosote
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:32 pm | Permalink |

      The point that Conroy has finally raised is one I have been pointing out on Whirlpool for a while now. Turnbull said in the same press club speech that its in the Liberal Party DNA to promote competiton, and that they would use as much existing infrastructure as possible.

      This begs the question, how can Turnbull say he is promoting private sector competition in the HFC footprint, where 2 existing private companies compete, if he then goes and build govt sponsored FTTN in the same footprint.

      How does the economics of FTTN stack up in the HFC footprint? Outside the footprint, in the underserved areas, there is effectively no option to copper. In the HFC footprint there is, and so people dont have to use FTTN. The fewer people on FTTN, the more it costs per head to maintain. Is Turnbull going to spend taxpayer funds upgrading copper connections that may never be used?

      Turnbull has talked about “encouraging” HFC to be upgraded via node splitting and making it open access, thus potentially moving more customers off copper, which wont theoretically go as fast as FTTN. How is he going to make any of that happen when the private sector companies who own the HFC have made very little investment in it over its lifetime? Why havent they increased the footprint on their own during this time if HFC is viable and lucrative, as Turnbull makes out that overseas examples highlight?

      Turnbull needs to leverage off this existing infrastructure to make his “faster broadband faster” promise happen. He cant rely on the private sector and then pull the rug out from under them. Turnbull has a lot of explaining to do.

      • ungulate
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:49 pm | Permalink |

        Turnbull’s ideas don’t have to make sense if he has no intention of implementing them. Simple really. Its not about what you’ll do, but about what you want people to believe.

        I’m sure Conroy reads this and knows how difficult it would be to get people to see beyond the “Liberals will build FTTN” smokescreen, when the media have uncritically swallowed it. Because of the media’s failure to be skeptical about the Liberals’ honesty and credibility, he’s forced to operate within the bubble, and demonstrate FTTN is an ugly, broken, waste of money.

        Despite the media, I think that as more people begin to understand how internally inconsistent, costly, unworkable and simply put, wrong, the “FTTN” idea is, the more people will see beyond it and doubt the Liberals sincerity.

      • nonny-moose
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 8:47 pm | Permalink |

        i have not paid too much attention to HFC as i regard it as too vulnerable to contention issues. what is the technical upshot of node splits? im assuming it leaves even less per customer bandwidth were everyone to use it at once, than non split areas?

        • Abel Adamski
          Posted 15/02/2013 at 12:40 am | Permalink |

          nonny.
          Actually an interesting exercise, depends on the goal.
          1) Just upgrade Rupert and Telstras cheap monopoly media platform with minimal upgrade to be able to cover all premises ( covers 25% metro premises yet can service only 4-500,000 total with similar service standard to what is currently achieved ( Absolutely NOT business capable) I would suggest 4 x current nodes, this will mean 4 x feeder fibres and 4 x backhaul and 4 x operational infrastructure capacity. Considering ageing network and arial coax drops have a finite lifespan include some maintenance costs in there as well.
          Even with that minimalist approach would be approaching initial install cost (I believe Telstras was $6Bill ) – Remember initially designed and built as a Multicast Pay TV and Media with telephony capability.
          2) Upgrade to a Broadband grade with Multicast capability able to offer business grade to a reasonable percentage of properties and comparable to FTTP or at least FTTN both download and upload
          Now talking big dollars
          at least 20 x everything as upload has to be lifted to at least 40% download instead of 2%. Plus factor far higher maintenance cost.
          As will be done on an incentivisation basis (Taxpayer Gifts) IMO we are talking many billions taxpayer dollars down the tube to ensure Rupe keeps his cheap delivery monopoly media empire
          Cheaper to just run FTTP

        • Posted 15/02/2013 at 2:09 am | Permalink |

          @nonny-moose

          what is the technical upshot of node splits?

          Decreased contention ratios. Telstra runs at contention of 500:1 (users per node) or less. But Optus runs at anything up to 2000:1. Node splitting adds more nodes, hence reducing the number of people ON a node and increasing bandwidth TO those people overall. It is, essentially, FTTN for HFC.

          im assuming it leaves even less per customer bandwidth were everyone to use it at once, than non split areas?

          No. The idea is that node-splitting (with accompanying increases to capacity at the headend, wihtout which node-splitting is pointless) allows MORE bandwidth per person (lower bandwidth contention), thereby increasing the quality of the connection overall. It’s not simple though- several hundred million dollars and 12-18 months would be required minimum to get even Telstra’s to a decent 200:1 ratio and probably even more so Optus.

          Even 200:1 on CURRENT HFC bandwidth per node isn’t great though. As a comparison:

          NBN GPON gives 2.5Gbps between 32 users. HFC nodes have currently (with EuroDOCSIS 3.0 that Telstra use) 470Mbps down and 130Mbps up per node (200 users). Now, this COULD be increased by allocating more spectrum in the Coax to provide, say, 1Gbps per node….but that would be something that has to be looked at VERY carefully as it begins to encroach upon the TV spectrum for Foxtel.

      • Posted 16/02/2013 at 9:23 pm | Permalink |

        He will be promoting competition by buying out the HFC from Telstra and Optus.. Rather than destroying them he will continue using them making it available to all providers.

        • seven_tech
          Posted 16/02/2013 at 10:04 pm | Permalink |

          @bursting your bubble

          And if you knew about HFC you would know there is currently no market solution for making HFC open-access and wholesale. PARTICULARLY with Telstra running Pay TV down it too.

          HFC requires that ALL customers be connected to a single CMTS at the headend. That isn’t conducive for wholesaling.

          • alain
            Posted 17/02/2013 at 9:04 am | Permalink |

            Depends how hard you want to try.

            ‘Greenfields fibre broadband provider OptiComm has opened up its hybrid fibre-coaxial (HFC) network in Butler, Western Australia to wholesale access, something Optus has claimed could not be done.’

            http://www.zdnet.com/opticomm-wholesale-hfc-shows-up-optus-1339332057/

            • Posted 17/02/2013 at 11:56 am | Permalink |

              @alain

              http://whrl.pl/Rb0GqM

              I couldn’t actually say it better myself. If the government force Telstra/Optus to wholesale HFC, they are essentially forcing a private company to do something with private infrastructure. That’s not going to come cheap, seeing as currently they’re actually paying to have it shutdown.

              Secondly, I said there’s no market solution, because of the equipment Telstra and Optus currently use which is different to Opticomm’s. It requires DOCSIS3.0 equipment that is capable of dynamic channel bonding, something I’m fairly certain Telstra and Optus don’t have. It would require replacement of ALL cable modems and CMTS units and a redesign in the channel allocation on the HFC.

              So. There’s billions to pat both together for ion use of their PRIVATE networks and hundreds of millions to upgrade them to even be able to. And NONE of that upgrades it at the same time fir better throughput, so you can add another few hundred mil for that. And what do you get out the end? Wholesaling of a network that has had little to no maintenance for a decade, so much so that parts have just been shut down and left. It has no hope of survivg decades without ALOT of money spent on it.

              Or they could just buck up, realise they’re pushing Shit uphill and replace it….like NBNCo. are currently planning.

              • alain
                Posted 17/02/2013 at 2:21 pm | Permalink |

                You and others are deliberately over emphasizing the role of HFC in the Coalition plan.

                All Turnbull is saying is that HFC areas will be lower in priority in receiving FTTP/FTTN than areas that are inadequately served with BB period.
                As a selling point to the electorate especially regional and rural that would have some resonance as to this being the rational thing to do.

                The sticking point is of course as Turnbull has acknowledged is Telstra who is being paid handsomely to eventually shut down HFC by this Government and might not see forgoing part of that payment and keeping HFC going as being the preferable option revenue wise.

                ISP’s faced with the prospect of only re-selling HFC for a period time alongside FTTH plans might not be to agreeable either because as you know the HFC is in the cherry picked high earner areas of selected capital cities and the ACCC in all probability might also not be to comfortable with HFC wholesaling on that scale.

                I think the HFC ‘problem’ is a storm in a teacup, and the Coalition will gradually water it down as we head towards September.

                • NBNAlex
                  Posted 17/02/2013 at 4:43 pm | Permalink |

                  @ alain

                  “You and others are deliberately over emphasizing the role of HFC in the Coalition plan.”

                  No, sounds like you are typically under-emphasizing whatever one side says and wanting blood for whatever the others say…

                  “The sticking point is of course as Turnbull has acknowledged is Telstra who is being paid handsomely to eventually shut down HFC by this Government and might not see forgoing part of that payment and keeping HFC going as being the preferable option revenue wise”

                  Yes, the ACCC allowed NBNCo and Telstra (& Optus) to do a deal for NBNCo to migrate their customers to the newer better network, use pits and ducts and to close down their old obsolete technologies. It’s actually a win, win… because NBNCo can use the existing ducts/fast track and Telstra/Optus aren’t punished for actually building network infrastructure, by being compensated…

                  But… if you have any issues take it up with your Federal MP and the ACCC (sounds familiar eh)

                  :)

                • Posted 18/02/2013 at 2:28 am | Permalink |

                  @alain

                  You and others are deliberately over emphasizing the role of HFC in the Coalition plan.

                  I think Renai might have something to say about that. He hates his HFC NOW and you’re suggesting the Coalition will do nothing much with it for several years minimum and then it may only be to “upgrade” it then.

                  Fact is, the Coalition don’t know what they’re gonna do yet. And won’t until they’re in, because they’re not interested in good policy, only policy that will get them elected. Like “cutting” the Carbon Tax….even though there’s basically zero money to be saved from it, for either government OR voters and you’re only delaying until the Emissions trading cutover that Abbott’s promised anyway….

                  • alain
                    Posted 18/02/2013 at 10:44 am | Permalink |

                    ‘I think Renai might have something to say about that. He hates his HFC NOW and you’re suggesting the Coalition will do nothing much with it for several years minimum and then it may only be to “upgrade” it then.,’

                    Well he might if he was on HFC but he is on ADSL ( from the ‘Turnbull confirms:’ article)

                    ‘The HFC cables of both Telstra and Optus runs right down this street; right past my apartment. However, for the past decade that I have lived here, I have been completely unable to get this infrastructure connected to the two apartments in which I have lived’

                    ‘Fact is, the Coalition don’t know what they’re gonna do yet.’

                    I know the Coalition don’t know, but the appeal of the Coalition to the electorate (note I said electorate not Delimiter or Whirlpool) is that they have the advantage of hindsight of the Labor rollout and the flexibility of a FTTH/FTTN/HFC private/Government approach.

                    They can say we have all these options open to us as they do and a CBA will determine the most cost effective approach, a CBA was never done for the Labor rollout , they decided we cannot fail if we take the Rolls Royce approach, even in most cases something less costly would have sufficed.

                    Just being locked into FTTH or bust could lead to bust, September this year is probably the earliest scenario where that could happen.

                    • NBNAccuracy
                      Posted 18/02/2013 at 11:25 am | Permalink |

                      “but the appeal of the Coalition to the electorate (note I said electorate not Delimiter or Whirlpool)”
                      AKA, lie their arses off.

                      “They can say we have all these options open to us as they do and a CBA will determine the most cost effective approach, a CBA was never done for the Labor rollout”
                      They did look at these other options and they were rejected. You are blind to the fact that their initial plan was very similar to the Coalition’s and it was scrapped because it cost way to much to deliver and FTTH was the better option. How much better is FTTH now, 5 years on? FTTN is cheaper, but it’s life is severly limited. Let’s hope it they do a CBA that it’s a honest one that includes the necessary future work and doesn’t stop at “FTTN, job done”

                    • Posted 18/02/2013 at 12:48 pm | Permalink |

                      @alain

                      Actually that was my point. Renai can’t GET HFC and the Coalition aren’t going to change that anytime soon. He’s therefore stuck on ADSL and not great ADSL at that, while trying to run a small business online. And all because apparently because he’s in the HFC footprint he’s ‘adequately served’ for now.

                      And this is the party saying they’re going to prioritise poor BB areas….Renai is lucky he’s got reasonable ADSL. What about those in HFC areas who can’t use it and DON’T have decent ADSL? Oh, but they’re adequately served cause they’re in HFC footprints. See? The Coalition aren’t actually looking at serving the people the best way possible. Just the CHEAPEST way possible.

    3. ungulate
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:34 pm | Permalink |

      Renai,

      I have to point it out again. You’re continuing to write that the Liberals have an alternate “policy”. They have what is best described as a “position”. And when did you start using the term “NBN” – as in “rival NBN policy”. That’s also questionable. We have on the one hand the National Broadband Network. We have on the other hand a series of thought bubbles and rhetoric with no detail, costing or timeline. Co-opting the term “NBN” is not making the debate any clearer.

      There is alo the problem that in taking seriously the idea that the Liberals would implement a FTTN network, you’ve ignored the practical realities (years of delay, political consequences and context) which suggest that such a thing will never happen. Indeed, you’ve failed to even consider the possibility that the Liberals are being totally and willfully dishonest.

      • NBNAlex
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:36 pm | Permalink |

        +1

      • Mike
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 6:24 pm | Permalink |

        +1

    4. Mud Guts
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:48 pm | Permalink |

      I’ve said this for months now on Whirlpool. HFC is Turnbull’s dirty little secret.

      If you live in a suburb that’s has Telstra or Optus or both HFC, then under the Coalition, you’ll be shit out of luck when it comes to FTTN.

      As I and many others say on Whirlpool, Turnbull’s claims of cheaper and faster to build can only be done by building less.

      The Coalition will waste taxpayers money with grants, subsidies and tax concessions to get private enterprise to service unprofitable areas and to open up HFC to competition, but HFC is the poor man’s broadband choice – even worse than FTTN.

      Labor rightly listened to industry experts, whilst the Coalition does not – something I raised on radio this morning with Jon Faine on his morning program in Melbourne. FTTN was discounted as a viable solution with FTTH being chosen as the delivery mechanism to see communications for Australia into the middle of the 21st century.

      With the orders from the Liberal Party instructing MPs to remain silent on twitter, there’s going to be no answers from Turnbull or Abbott unless it’s an agreed to interview, and even then there will be more FUD, bullshit, lies and 1/2 truths.

      Being selfish now for a minute, I’m almost certainly going to get the NBN in it’s current format because of where I live, however I want to ensure that as many Australians as possible get access to the current NBN, so I implore people to not vote for the Coalition if you want the NBN as it stands today.

      • quink
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:53 pm | Permalink |

        > Labor rightly listened to industry experts

        It’s funny because Labor also listened to the Nationals, who made statements like these:

        > It’s widely understood in the telecommunications industry that FTTN will not deliver improved broadband speeds to rural and regional areas. Experts predict that not only would Labor’s plan cost three to four times their estimate, it’s likely to only reach 75 per cent of the population – a far cry from their claims of 98 per cent reach.

        http://www.fionanash.com.au/Media/MediaReleases/tabid/84/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/213/LABORS-RURAL-FRAUDBAND.aspx

      • Michael
        Posted 15/02/2013 at 12:21 pm | Permalink |

        HFC worse than FTTN? You’re kidding, right?

        Reasonably provisioned HFC is infinitely better than FTTN. And generally – with a few pockets of exceptions – HFC here is well provisioned.

        I get 90Mbps down. At 10pm. On a Monday night.

        • Michael
          Posted 15/02/2013 at 12:21 pm | Permalink |

          Oh, and virtually zero last-mile latency – FTTN makes me cry in comparison, and I deal with copper based services all day at work.

        • Posted 15/02/2013 at 12:28 pm | Permalink |

          Um um.

          Your comment has the smell of being invalid.

          • Abel Adamski
            Posted 15/02/2013 at 1:31 pm | Permalink |

            Renai
            Note @ 10pm on a Monday night

        • Posted 15/02/2013 at 2:00 pm | Permalink |

          @Michael

          Reasonably provisioned….yes, well, there’s your problem. Telstra have 450Mbps down per 500 users….and they’re GIVING away speed upgrades to 100Mbps. So, even at HALF users in a node, its a contention ratio of 55:1 which is already higher than 90% of ADSL services. Push that up to 300 or 400 users and you’ve got contentions twice that of ADSL. And the ONLY way to change that is either node split or upgrade to DOCSIS 3.1. Telstra will pay for neither.

          Oh and 10pm on a Monday night??? Lol. Try it at 6pm on a Friday night. THEN get back to me….

        • jwbam
          Posted 15/02/2013 at 3:56 pm | Permalink |

          But “reasonably provisioned” is currently achieved by keeping MOST users in area OFF the HFC cable! It’s either a premium niche product for the elite few or a second or third rate one for all – you can’t have it both ways without spending a fortune on upgrades.

    5. midspace
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:55 pm | Permalink |

      Optus cable down the street: Check.
      Telstra cable down the street: Check.
      ADSL2+ services on Exchange: Check.

      Result: No FTTN.

      ADSL2+ Speed at location: 3.5Mbps. Fail.
      Optus availability at location?: Fail. Does not connect to subdivided lots or MDUs.
      Telstra availability at location?: Check. (so they claim)

      Overall result?
      Continued Telstra Monopoly on services and infrastructure.

      I refuse to pay more (go back Telstra) for either my fixed phone line or internet services (currently both with another provider).
      I see other members of the public paying similar or less for faster speeds.
      What do I have to do? Go to the ACCC and the Communications ombudsman and complain about the lack of competition of high speed broadband in my area due to the short-sighted stupidity of the (shadow) Communications Minister?

      • midspace
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 4:56 pm | Permalink |

        That should read:
        Optus HFC connection availability at location?: Fail. Does not connect to subdivided lots or MDUs.
        Telstra HFC connection availability at location?: Check. (so they claim)

      • jwbam
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 6:06 pm | Permalink |

        I have spoken to TWO neighbours on Optus HFC who complained it is unusable at peak times.
        Worse than my 4 Mbit/sec ADSL.

        Without NBN, we’re at the mercy of Telstra.

      • alain
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 8:18 pm | Permalink |

        @midspace

        I attempted to look for the Coalition NBN Co mapping plan website to check my address to find out what will happen, what did you look up that stated that your address won’t get FTTN or even FTTH for that matter?

        • midspace
          Posted 14/02/2013 at 9:21 pm | Permalink |

          @alain

          Did you not read/listen to what minister Turnbull said?
          Let me refresh for you in case you missed it.

          “… one must ask why on earth Labor and NBN Co want to overbuild and decommission the HFC pay TV cable network that passes 28 per cent of Australian premises,” said Turnbull.

          It is very clear that Turnbull has no intention in spending any money to over overbuild any HFC. As I live in such an area where both HFCs exist, which in Mr Turnbull’s words supports 100Mbps, FTTN most likely never appear where I live.

          As for FTTP supplied by NBNCo under the current Labor government, I wait in anticipation. More than likely I expect to see my area start construction some time after the 6th year of the roll out, because as I explained, both HFCs run down my street. It a well built up metro area with no black spots, and only one region in the area one the three year rollout, but also one of the few POI’s that is not in an area that is scheduled for construction.
          Actually with Mr Conroy’s recent words about not been able to move about without tripping over NBN construction does not ring true at all, as there is nothing from where I live to where I work, and nothing between for the 35km round trip I do each day.

    6. Brendan
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:04 pm | Permalink |

      “A lot has happened since Turnbull’s 2011 Press Club speech about his rival broadband plans..”

      That may be so, but we a re no closer to a formalised policy. He has some plans. Sometimes, he shares his ideas with the wider constituency; but it’s clear that there is no policy at this time.

      I really think the notion that the LNP will “sort of do the same thing, only with copper” logic has to go die in a fire. We don’t really actually know, fully, what any policy is. Because he’s yet to front up with any.

      Until that is forthcoming, it’s very much assumption that Turnbull has any intention of meeting any proposed ideas. Because, the Member for Wentworth has only ever thought out loud. There’s nothing to back any of it.

    7. Tailgator
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:12 pm | Permalink |

      @ Renai ….. ‘Conroy had a huge spray’? I think not. Rather he simply made an extensive and detailed critique of the conflicting suggestions/hints made by the Liberals regarding their non broadband policy. (I wont do it the favour of calling it an NBN)

      @ All …. But seriously, I think the key point to be taken from the video clip is the one that Conroy makes ….
      That under a Liberal Govt the NBN will be trashed to the point where it becomes little more than a ‘black spots’ program with taxpayer funded subsidies for private enterprise capital expenditure to fix the problem areas. Obviously much ado would be presented to the media regarding these ‘initiatives’ while behind the scenes, NBNCo is quietly gutted and the carcass sold off to private enterprise at a huge loss to the taxpayer, in terms of both financial cost and lost access to future infrastructure.

      • midspace
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 7:09 pm | Permalink |

        That’s a good point regarding the name.
        It is not a “national” broadband network, unless the entire network is for and accessible by the nation as a whole.
        Having HFC remaining in the hand of Telstra and Optus, only leaves us with piecemeal.
        Unless of course Telstra own the entire network. But then it’ll be a Telstra national network, not an Australian National network.

    8. Brendan
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:17 pm | Permalink |

      Also, this is a pretty important caveat:

      “It could do so elsewhere if Telstra is provided with the certainty required to make the modest investment needed…”

      What does Mr Turnbull intend to do, to “provide the certainty required” for Telstra? We know what the NBN deals have cost, and that doesn’t even go near CAN or HFC access.

      There are so many unanswered questions, it’s truly laughable to suggest they have any certainty in delivering an alternative.

    9. NBNAlex
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:41 pm | Permalink |

      LOL.. come clean Malcolm…

    10. Tinman_au
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 5:50 pm | Permalink |

      “Turnbull has said that the full cost of the Coalition’s rival NBN policy could not be calculated until the Coalition was able to get full access to NBN Co’s finances”

      So….no costed policy from the LNP BEFORE the election then…

      • NBNAccuracy
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 7:11 pm | Permalink |

        Not having those costings doesn’t stop them releasing a plan. There are so many questions that need to be answered regardless of the costs of contracts underway. Cabinet density, cost to aquire the copper, what areas are covered, does it include HFC areas? Is it a wholesale network? They seem a bit reluctant to answer that and their is all the odd talk of incentives. What is the plan for and the cost for the ad hoc fibre upgrades? What will it cost down the line if, as it appears likely, FTTN will not be enough going beyond 2020?

        • alain
          Posted 14/02/2013 at 8:30 pm | Permalink |

          @NBNAccuracy

          ‘ What will it cost down the line if, as it appears likely, FTTN will not be enough going beyond 2020?’

          Which is interesting because in 2020 the current Labor NBN will still migrating residences off the Telstra exchanges which has a target end date of 2023, so in 2020 many residents will still be on ADSL2+ and HFC.

          If FTTN is available well before then I don’t think those residences will be upset too much do you?

          • ungulate
            Posted 14/02/2013 at 10:00 pm | Permalink |

            A two to three year delay before FTTN begins construction ensures some people will still be waiting on it in 2020. And how long will those people then have to wait for fibre?

            • alain
              Posted 15/02/2013 at 7:49 am | Permalink |

              Why is there a 2 to 3 year delay?

              • NBNAlex
                Posted 17/02/2013 at 5:53 pm | Permalink |

                ‘ What will it cost down the line if, as it appears likely, FTTN will not be enough going beyond 2020?’

                I’d like to hear your answer too… but of course I/we never will, all we will get is more such childish waffle, to avoid answering.

                • alain
                  Posted 17/02/2013 at 6:28 pm | Permalink |

                  It’s ok you don’t have to follow me all over Delimiter and insert something anything between posts even if it just filler when a question is left hanging I have asked, I appreciate you are my No 1 fan and even repeat phrases I use to the exact word because you have nothing original to say, your zeal is hilarious.

                  • NBNAlex
                    Posted 17/02/2013 at 7:05 pm | Permalink |

                    It’s my pleasure, I enjoy making a fool of your silly comments… glad I’m getting to you :)

                    • NBNAlex
                      Posted 17/02/2013 at 7:06 pm | Permalink |

                      Nice diversion and again no answer…LOL

                  • NBNAccuracy
                    Posted 17/02/2013 at 7:25 pm | Permalink |

                    Go on alain, answer the question. I was even really generouse saying 2020 as they predict 80Mb to be redundant around 2017.

                    How much will it cost to upgrade the FTTN to FTTH. Will this result in a substantially more expensive way to get to where we are already going? If not, why not?

    11. jwbam
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 6:04 pm | Permalink |

      “The HFC cable infrastructure is capable of supporting speeds up to 100Mbps, and Telstra and Optus have upgraded the infrastructure to a certain level in order to support these kinds of speeds. However”

      … my bank account is capable of holding a balance of $50 billion. The only trouble is that to actually ACHIEVE that, I would need about … $50 billion that I don’t have.

    12. alain
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 7:57 pm | Permalink |

      The scare campaign has started already and it’s going to be a long campaign, best to keep something in reserve but then a diversion from the NBN rollout stats between now and September will be continually needed.

      • midspace
        Posted 14/02/2013 at 10:32 pm | Permalink |

        There’s a campaign? Where are the tacky TV ads, the flyers handed out in malls by pushy young people, the mail drops in letter boxes?

    13. Frank Costanza
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 10:16 pm | Permalink |

      What is the maximum speed Telstra HFC can handle in the near future, considering that Foxtel also uses the same cable? I assume this limits the up/down speeds to some extent.

      Opticomm HFC in Western Australia, which is wholesale, does 100/40. Turnbull mentions this on his blog – http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/blogs/congratulations-to-opticomm-on-its-wholesale-access-hfc/

      Is there any change Telstra HFC could become wholesale and do 100/40 instead of the current 100/2.

      • Daniel
        Posted 15/02/2013 at 1:57 am | Permalink |

        Ah yes, Opticomm, friends with Malcolm Turnbull…. Congratulating them on job well done while screwing everyone else…

        OptiComm, giving FTTP in new estates, while HFC to second rate…

        As with any deals with Telstra, to actually agree with one the haven’t been able to get a successful agreement from Telstra on any deal in the past.

        Especially on the option of Wholesaling HFC.

        http://delimiter.com.au/2011/08/26/internode-wants-to-resell-telstra-hfc-next-g/

        Nothin came of it…. and Internode went up in smoke into iiNet’s hands…

      • Posted 15/02/2013 at 2:27 am | Permalink |

        @Frank Costanza

        What is the maximum speed Telstra HFC can handle in the near future, considering that Foxtel also uses the same cable? I assume this limits the up/down speeds to some extent.

        Indeed it does. Foxtel uses approx. 560MHz of spectrum in its’ current form (give or take a few tens of MHz). Telstra uses 8 Channels at 8Mhz per channel (so 64MHz) on EuroDOCSIS 3.0, giving 450Mbps Down and 130MBps up per node.

        DOCSIS 3.1 provides for up to 10Gbps (theoretically) using OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing) but that is using a contiguous block of 200MHz- something Telstra currently doesn’t have with Foxtel’s 120 (??) channels. They MIGHT be capable of 1/6 of that, or about 1.5Gbps per node. But that would require replacement of customers cable modems- EXCEEDINGLY expensive as they are when brand new standards come out (upwards of $500 each). AND it is not even a standard yet. It has yet to be ratified and equipment isn’t due for at LEAST 12-18 months and runs at US standards (different to Telstra’s).

        Is there any change Telstra HFC could become wholesale and do 100/40 instead of the current 100/2.

        The problem with that is upstream beyond 2Mbps is theoretically possible….but it requires non-standard equipment to provide higher upstream links per user. Telstra would have to essentially partner with a chip manufacturer like Intel or Broadcomm and make their own CPE. Much like NBNCo. have done with their fibre and NTD’s. But Telstra’s HFC is on 1/20th the scale of the NBN….so it’s considerably more expensive for them. The problem is, upstream has never been allocated much bandwidth on HFC. And while, again, DOCSIS3.1 can, theoretically, supply up to 1Gbps, it requires much more than the current 4 channels used for upstream data. That would require Telstra to completely reallocate its’ data spectrum on the cable. Certainly achievable, but not easy, cheap or quick.

    14. Robert Wilkinson
      Posted 14/02/2013 at 11:50 pm | Permalink |

      Whilst in my area we have both Telstra and Optus HFC cable slung on poles the Telstra cable has never been activated and the Optus unit whilst used by a few for Phone Broadband and Tv is not available for new customers and has been that way for a number of years .
      So does that mean we will yet again be ignored by the alternative Network( Ihate to call it the NBN) as we were for years by Telstra with Dslams until TPG put one in then magic Telstra now have one too!!!

    15. Posted 15/02/2013 at 2:29 am | Permalink |

      The longer the Coalition leave their policy in the dark, the better Conroy appears in the public eye.

      Delaying their policy until the weekend before the election won’t work this time. I THINK Turnbull knows this.

      I will be interested to see their policy and if they have any evidence that makes me believe they will actually follow through on it rather than it being an empty promise.

      • alain
        Posted 15/02/2013 at 7:54 am | Permalink |

        Consistent poor polling by Labor indicates that the electorate rate the NBN a minor player on the political scene, your insinuation that no policy detail is a major deterrent to a Coalition win is wishful thinking.

        • Mr Creosote
          Posted 15/02/2013 at 8:48 am | Permalink |

          Labour has been gaining ground on the Libs because people continue to see that the Libs single policy of saying No just isnt cutting it now that its coming down to the business end of things. Abbott is still far and away the most unpopular choice for leader. There is a reason he is being banned from talking to the media. This ban also seems now to extend to senior ministers like Turnbull, who should be out flogging the fully costed policy he has told us he has.
          He has since backpedalled and tried to blame the Labor party for not having a policy now. How farcical! He tells us to look overseas to see examples of where FTTN is working that he is going to use here, and yet he cant use those same models to do costings? Seriously? If FTTN is as pervasive and the business case for it stacks up overseas as well as he says it does, there is absolutely no reason he shouldnt be able to use that as a cost base for his FTTN “plan”.

          • alain
            Posted 15/02/2013 at 3:07 pm | Permalink |

            @Mr Creosote

            ‘Labour has been gaining ground on the Libs because people continue to see that the Libs single policy of saying No just isnt cutting it now that its coming down to the business end of things.’

            No that’s not what is happening at all.

            ‘The latest Newspoll survey, which was slightly affected by the number of voters in flood and bushfire-affected areas, is a complete reversal of fortune for the ALP from the summer-holiday affected January poll, and a much-needed personal boost for the Opposition Leader.

            The poll puts Labor’s primary support at 32 per cent – a wipeout of the six-point gain recorded between December and January – as the Coalition’s support rose four percentage points to 48 per cent in the past three weeks.

            With the Greens steady on 9 per cent and “others” going from 9 per cent to 11 per cent since the poll in January, the two-party-preferred figure has the Coalition back with a huge election-winning lead of 56 per cent to 44 per cent.’

            http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/labor-slumps-as-campaign-starts-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226568212251

            ‘ Abbott is still far and away the most unpopular choice for leader.’

            ‘There were also real shifts in personal standing of the individual leaders, with dissatisfaction rising from 49 per cent to 52 per cent for Ms Gillard’

            …… for Abbott

            ‘while dissatisfaction went down from 58 to 56 per cent.’

            I wouldn’t call a difference of 4 percentage points in your words ‘ Abbott is still far and away…..’.

            • NBNAlex
              Posted 17/02/2013 at 4:22 pm | Permalink |

              Thanks for that…

              That being, you once again displaying your single reason for hating a government who will use debt (which will be repaid via patronage) to supply all Australians (yes and you and I) with a technological improvement to help both of our and everyone else’s families, which will become as asset worth billions…

              Just like your beloved Telstra did!

              I really for the life of me can’t understand anyone hating such a build so fervently… but then I don’t suffer from acute political ideological brainwashing either ;)

        • Posted 15/02/2013 at 1:53 pm | Permalink |

          @Alain

          I’m glad you agree there’s no policy detail. We’ll see who’s right about whether it matters or not. Don’t try and back out now you’ve said there’s no detail either. Its the opposite if what you’ve been saying for months.

          • alain
            Posted 15/02/2013 at 2:48 pm | Permalink |

            I never said there was ‘plenty of detail’ in isolation, it was in the context of the detail we had from Labor BEFORE the 2007 election when they were in Opposition.

            There is no doubt the Coalition have a lot of work to do, I would particularly like to hear from Telstra about what they think about a FTTN rollout alongside a partial FTTH rollout as at September and what they think about extending the longevity of the BB capacity of their HFC network to a future unspecified date when it might be replaced by some fibre option also not specified as yet.

            • seven_tech
              Posted 15/02/2013 at 3:14 pm | Permalink |

              @alain

              Before before before. That’s all you’re interested in doing isn’t it? Comparing Labor’s 2007 FTTN with the current Coalition one (which are ALREADY very different- Labor’s was to 98%, The Coalition’s looks to be to a MAXIMUM of 60%) is irrelevant. Labor changed their policy because the expert panel said it wasn’t tenable. They made a choice based on evidence to IMPROVE their policy.

              The Coalition have no detail because they’re not making a choice to improve their policy based on evidence. They’re making a choice to rubbish Labor’s policy and hide their own so that it won’t BE an election issue. I do NOT condone that attitude, as a political party should NEVER be voted on based simply upon ideology. True Democracy is based on the ideal of voting for the party that will run the country the best- the one that HAS THE BEST POLICY. Having no policy and rubbishing the current government’s is in contempt of true Democracy.

              • alain
                Posted 15/02/2013 at 4:02 pm | Permalink |

                So do you vote Labor in 2007 based on BB policy or did you have some amazing insight and deep down you knew they would change it post election the way they did?

                You are screaming now for Coalition policy because you and other frequent posters here are locked into a FTTH or nothing mindset, all your posts indicate you support the Labor FTTH rollout and you lobby very hard across many media outlets not just here to push for that outcome.

                As I have stated before even if the Coalition did produce the most detailed and costed pre election BB policy in a 100 page document, if it states HFC or FTTN anywhere as a solution it is dead in the water, there is no need to read anymore.

                It is really amusing all this headline screaming ‘Where is your policy Turnbull’ as if it would make any difference anyway, why pretend you actually need one?

                • seven_tech
                  Posted 15/02/2013 at 4:34 pm | Permalink |

                  @alain

                  No, I voted Coalition in 2007, because I was too nieve to see different from my father’s point of view (a staunch conservative). I am allowed to change my mind. Just as Labor did.

                  I’m not interested in 6 years ago. And I REALLY don’t understand why you are? We are NOT in the same situation as we were then- a Coalition government who had NOT produced ANY BB changes. OPEC hadn’t started and was in fact halted BEFORE the election. We had a Labor opposition with costings based on Telstra’s original proposal and no more information on the copper buyout.

                  Now, we HAVE the info on the copper buyout AND we have a Labor government that, through NBNCo, has ACTUALLY CONNECTED over 72 000 FTTH homes, 1500 wireless homes and 20 000 satellite homes. And we have details CONSTANTLY produced by NBNCo. updating that with a very high likelihood it will be 286K on fibre by June 2013- BEFORE the election. To this party, the Coalition bring:

                  - No costings
                  - No details of coverage
                  - No details of actual speeds achievable
                  - No details of timeframe

                  We are in a COMPLETELY different BB policy place now as compared to 2007- things ARE being done and to this the Coalition brings nothing but vague promises. If you cannot see this, I truly don’t know how to understand your point of view.

                  I vote on policy now that I have learned a bit about the world. And the Coalition have no policy. They have “a plan”. I don’t vote on plans. And I WOULDN’T have if I’d understood better in the 2007 election.

                  • seven_tech
                    Posted 15/02/2013 at 4:37 pm | Permalink |

                    @alain

                    Oh and by the way, if the Coalition provided a detailed policy document, with industry backed up details that showed, for example, they could rollout FTTN in 1.5-2 years and that it WOULD provide 80Mbps to 30%, 50Mbps to 50% and 25Mbps to 20%, then I would seriously consider it.

                    However, they will never produce a document like this, because they cannot. The information they need Telstra have and Telstra won’t give it out. The ONLY way the would get the information they need would be to be in government and sit down at the negotiating table. And on the strength of what they have offered so far (nothing) I am not prepared to vote them in on empty promises. Especially when Labor WILL continue to connect tens of thousands of premises a month EVERY month if they’re elected.

                • R0ninX3ph
                  Posted 15/02/2013 at 4:42 pm | Permalink |

                  I think the reason people want apples compared to apples is, comparing what the Coalition bring to the table now to what Labor brought in 2007 is irrelevant. The fact is there IS a policy and plan being enacted right now, and it is down right shifty to be comparing a complete and comprehensive plan with something that sounds like it is written on the back of a napkin.

                  Alain, you sound like someone who can argue your point well, surely you agree it would be better to see BOTH plans completely costed and compared to decide which is worth more to the country now, than to be comparing apples to oranges?

                  • alain
                    Posted 15/02/2013 at 6:53 pm | Permalink |

                    @ROninX3ph

                    ‘surely you agree it would be better to see BOTH plans completely costed and compared to decide which is worth more to the country now, than to be comparing apples to oranges?’

                    Yes that would be ideal but we won’t get that from the Coalition because we didn’t get it from Labor until well after the 2007 election anyway.

                    In May 2010 we got the NBN Implementation Study three months before the August election and we got the first NBN Co Business Plan in December 2010 since revised in 2012 three months after the election.

                    If you are asking for at least the equivalent of the May 2010 Labor NBN Implementation Study you are asking the Coalition who are not in power to provide this sort of ‘completely costed’ detail without the resources of DBCDE or Treasury that Labor had?

                    • seven_tech
                      Posted 15/02/2013 at 7:19 pm | Permalink |

                      @alain

                      If you are asking for at least the equivalent of the May 2010 Labor NBN Implementation Study you are asking the Coalition who are not in power to provide this sort of ‘completely costed’ detail without the resources of DBCDE or Treasury that Labor had?

                      You mean like this:

                      http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Budget_Office

                      • alain
                        Posted 15/02/2013 at 9:31 pm | Permalink |

                        I read their function as providing analysis on policy for MP’s Senators etc on request after the policy has been released, not to sit down with the Coalition and help them frame the initial Coalition BB policy complete with all costings and the necessary costed negotiations with Telstra.

                      • Posted 15/02/2013 at 9:54 pm | Permalink |

                        @alain

                        They would have access to confidential information that the Coalition normally wouldn’t be able to access. That’s half the point of the PBO. Remember? Blackhole from 2010? They had no costed policies, only ideas.

                        The same as FTTN.

                      • alain
                        Posted 17/02/2013 at 2:39 pm | Permalink |

                        But they are not communication experts, they are not there to help the Coalition decide the FTTP/FTTN/HFC mix and its costings and say you have got the mix wrong you should have more FTTH and less FTTN and drop the HFC or whatever.

                        As an example of their role to analyse the figures of existing policy Hockey has submitted the Labor mining tax policy to them.

                        If the Coalition produced a fully costed BB policy then Conroy for example could submit it to the PBO to check the figures as a pure accountancy/costing/statistical exercise.

                        But of course they couldn’t do that overnight, and we are rapidly running out of time for that to happen anyway.

                      • Posted 18/02/2013 at 2:32 am | Permalink |

                        @alain

                        But they are not communication experts, they are not there to help the Coalition decide the FTTP/FTTN/HFC mix and its costings and say you have got the mix wrong you should have more FTTH and less FTTN and drop the HFC or whatever.

                        When did I say they were? I said they have access to confidential finances (such as NBNCo’s reports to the government) that could enable them to draft costings based on exactly WHAT mix of tech that plan on using, extrapolating from NBNCo’s costs and costs provided from consultants the Coalition SHOULD be using on their “policy” of providing FTTN….such as Telstra.

                        Turnbull is saying he can’t cost his policy because NBNCo. won’t let them see how much they’ve contracted. He’s got no excuse on not being able to get costs on HIS side of the policy (FTTN costs etc.) so he’s using NBNCo’s “closed” books as an excuse. The PBO removes that excuse. He is, essentially, stalling for time.

                      • NBNAlex
                        Posted 18/02/2013 at 10:42 am | Permalink |

                        Indeed 7T

                        Of course using their (ir)rationale, the Productivity Commission that the naysayers keep harping on about doing an NBN CBA, also aren’t Telecommunications experts! But of course the perpetual naysayers love to apply different sets of rules to the NBN exclusively.

                        Interestingly too, I have found when it came to an actual Panel of Exeprts (in comms and business) the same naysayers, instead of accepting their findings, tried to dismiss them as anything but experts :/

                • NBNAccuracy
                  Posted 15/02/2013 at 5:10 pm | Permalink |

                  No Alain, it isn’t FTTH or nothing. It’s a good, economic solution to Australia’s future broadband needs done any way that is cost effective and makes sense. Turnbull’s policy makes no sense. He needs to show how his plan provides for the long term BB requirements in Australia. It doesn’t just have to cost less in the short term, it has to cost less in the long term too, which I, and many others, don’t believe it does. In the case we would be better off with nothing. At least we won’t have squandered huges amounts of cash in a bad solution that requires more cash thrown at it to fix, more money to run and maintain.

                  • alain
                    Posted 15/02/2013 at 6:11 pm | Permalink |

                    So as I have said you don’t really want to see a Coalition Policy at all because it certainly won’t be the Labor FTTH Policy will it?

                    Turnbull is not preaching to the converted Labor FTTH lovers that frequent Delimiter, they ain’t changing their mind anytime soon, he is trying to convince those that are on the fence that the Labor FTTH rollout is a unnecessary extravagance that is behind schedule and over Budget.

                    Of course the Coalition rollout will in all probability be behind schedule and over Budget as well, but we don’t know that yet, and once they are in they can use the excuse used for the Labor rollout – we will make up the shortfall in the next reporting period.

                    It’s like the sign in the Pub – Free Beer Tomorrow. :)

                    • seven_tech
                      Posted 15/02/2013 at 6:19 pm | Permalink |

                      @alain

                      So, wait, you’d rather an INFERIOR technological and nation-building project be behind schedule and budget, than a technologically superior one be?

                      And you say I’M close minded…..

                      I tell you what alain, you vote how you want. I don’t need the NDIS. So it’s irrelevant to me right now and I’m not fussed if it takes a decade to get off the ground properly, but I DO think it’s needed for the country. I ALSO think a Carbon Impost, changing to a trading scheme in LESS than 3 years, is necessary. And I think tax free threshold of $18K just makes sense. The NBN, however, is VITAL in my eyes. More vital than any of those. So I’ll be voting Labor.

                      You can vote the Coalition and hope ALL you want they do what they say and decently. I’ll vote on what Labor have ALREADY done and will therefore continue to do, not what they might do. Cause that’s good policy.

                      • alain
                        Posted 15/02/2013 at 6:31 pm | Permalink |

                        ‘So, wait, you’d rather an INFERIOR technological and nation-building project be behind schedule and budget, than a technologically superior one be?’

                        Your inference not mine, I was only stating pragmatically what happens to the vast majority of Government backed infrastructure projects irrespective of what it is.

                    • NBNAccuracy
                      Posted 17/02/2013 at 7:32 pm | Permalink |

                      “So as I have said you don’t really want to see a Coalition Policy at all because it certainly won’t be the Labor FTTH Policy will it?”
                      I want to see the Coalition policy. If they can do what they claim, roll out FTTN in a couple of years, do it for a third the cost and in so doing allow for future upgrades using savings from defered cost I will give them credit for good planning and see their policy as a viable alternative policy.

                      “Turnbull is not preaching to the converted Labor FTTH lovers that frequent Delimiter, they ain’t changing their mind anytime soon, he is trying to convince those that are on the fence that the Labor FTTH rollout is a unnecessary extravagance that is behind schedule and over Budget.”
                      I have only voted Labor once in my life, other times it’s been the Liberals. Shock horror I voted for Howard.
                      My belief in policies is based on technical knowledge, not politics. The money is a drop in the bucket and FTTH is needed, both parties agree to that, it’s when and how it gets there that is the difference.

                      “Of course the Coalition rollout will in all probability be behind schedule and over Budget as well, but we don’t know that yet, and once they are in they can use the excuse used for the Labor rollout – we will make up the shortfall in the next reporting period. ”
                      I am not interested in politics alain, that’s your blind spot.

                • NBNAlex
                  Posted 17/02/2013 at 6:03 pm | Permalink |

                  “As I have stated before even if the Coalition did produce the most detailed and costed pre election BB policy in a 100 page document, if it states HFC or FTTN anywhere as a solution it is dead in the water, there is no need to read anymore.”

                  Ironically, you just described yourself in relation to everything NBN positive. But then you go one step further don’t you? By not only ignoring positive reports but actually thinking up non-existent FUD icing to goop on top of your bullshit :/

    16. the lone gunmen
      Posted 15/02/2013 at 8:44 am | Permalink |

      Delimiter just republishes any abuse and nonsense that the Minister says or writes. Instead of addressing real stories like another delay in NBN. How many does that make now?

      Each day your precious NBN seems less likely as Conroy and his fellow bozos edge closer to political oblivion. Time to start buying tissues guys.

      • Mr Creosote
        Posted 15/02/2013 at 8:52 am | Permalink |

        Renai is pretty balanced with his reporting.
        I am sure he would definitely print more about Turnbulls policy – if there actually was one.
        If you want to see more about the Libs, you need to blame them for the lack of info , and take your concerns up with the media managers who are hiding their leader and senior ministers away.

        • Hubert Cumberdale
          Posted 15/02/2013 at 12:05 pm | Permalink |

          “If you want to see more about the Libs, you need to blame them for the lack of info”

          I think the big problem is not just lack of info but the fact that so many are easily fooled by the info they do give. Take Michael here for example, he posts on Andrew Bolts blog and agrees with everything he says. You cant reason with someone like that if they take what a simpleton like Bolt says as gospel. Coalitions actual broadband plan is irrelevant to them. They could use smoke signals and they’d still think it was great.

          • alain
            Posted 15/02/2013 at 2:55 pm | Permalink |

            Well as I have said before the Coalition policy could be two Milo tins and a piece of string , it doesn’t mean they will lose in September.

            • Abel Adamski
              Posted 15/02/2013 at 3:13 pm | Permalink |

              Does a Pyrrhic Victory please you alain ?

              Talk about out of the frying pan into the furnace

            • Hubert Cumberdale
              Posted 15/02/2013 at 4:56 pm | Permalink |

              Stop your whining. Grow up. Your ill-informed input was not requested nor is it required in this debate.

              • NBNAlex
                Posted 17/02/2013 at 6:38 pm | Permalink |

                + infinitum ;)

    17. Chunk
      Posted 15/02/2013 at 11:56 am | Permalink |

      Libs win then NBN is well and truly f–cked…
      Mr Turnbulls policy is more or less non existent.

      • Abel Adamski
        Posted 15/02/2013 at 1:56 pm | Permalink |

        So is Australia’s economic future apart from the multinational Miners and Agricultural combines

        • alain
          Posted 15/02/2013 at 6:34 pm | Permalink |

          I look forward to the economic ruin of all those overseas countries that have a well entrenched working FTTN network anytime soon eh?

          • Abel Adamski
            Posted 16/02/2013 at 12:29 am | Permalink |

            I said apart from the mining and agribusiness sectors.
            However even the US is decrying the deeply entrenched Cable TV companies as they are making FTTH rollout economically unviable thus forcing FTTN as the next best upgrade which they recognise is inadequate over the long term. Of course there are the exceptions and those communities are benefiting economically and socially, they are attracting quality people with drive’

            The tourist dollar is a factor in our increasingly connected world, Holiday accommodation and resort WiFi would be an attraction that could counteract our high dollar somewhat. FTTN we lose that even

            Agribusiness influenced by climate and weather. Mining largely multinational and once the new developments are up employment will drop right off

            The Dutch Disease is waiting around the corner, we have to diversify and decentralise and tap into and develop our greatest resource our human talent. The FTTN Lotto is inadequate for that task

            • alain
              Posted 17/02/2013 at 2:42 pm | Permalink |

              Is that the Dutch Elm disease or something else?

              :)




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