Telstra 12Mbps wireless to surpass NBN: Liberal MP

171

news A Liberal Member of Parliament inaccurately claimed this week on national television that Telstra would launch a 12Mbps wireless broadband service which would “surpass” the National Broadband Network’s 100Mbps fibre to the home service, meaning there was no need to proceed with a project he said was a “white elephant”.

The ABC’s Capital Hill program on Wednesday ran an extensive debate between Liberal MP Don Randall and Labor MP Mike Kelly on the NBN, following the Government’s release of NBN Co’s new corporate plan to cover the years until 2015. You can view the full clip on YouTube here or on the ABC’s website. And thanks to Terry Green for first highlighting this issue on his blog.

Speaking on the program, Randall said “Telstra will beat the NBN at their own game” with competitive wireless broadband infrastructure. “Thanks to the $11 billion the NBN’s giving Telstra, they are rolling out wireless, at a cheaper cost, 12 megabits per second, to people in outer areas of Australia,” said Randall.

“In greenfields estates, in my electorate, people are readily signing on, because they get the upload and download speeds. The one technology, fibre to the home, which the NBN has come up with in this case, is going to be gazumped by Telstra, and this NBN will eventually be seen as the white elephant which it is, because Telstra will have surpassed it by offering a cheaper and just as efficient service.”

Kelly immediately rejected Randall’s claims, stating that they “completely misrepresented” the NBN scheme. “You cannot do things for business, education and health based on a wireless system; it will not work,” he said, additionally pointing out that under the deals Telstra and Optus have signed with NBN Co, both companies will also be transferring their fixed-line customers onto the NBN infrastructure. “12 megabytes a second is plenty,” fired back Randall.

Randall’s claim that Telstra is rolling out a 12Mbps wireless service is factually incorrect. The company already has a nationwide 3G/4G network which features a diverse range of speeds; up to 40Mbps in 4G areas, up to 20Mbps in metropolitan areas and many regional areas outside the 4G footprint, and lesser speeds outside that footprint. However, Telstra has never specifically discussed a 12Mbps wireless service.

Furthermore, Randall’s statement that wireless broadband could surpass the NBN are also factually incorrect.

The idea that Australia’s broadband needs could be served in future by wireless technology — especially 4G mobile broadband is not a new one. It has been raised repeatedly by the Coalition over the past several years as an alternative to the fixed FTTH-style rollout which predominantly features in the NBN. The case for wireless as a future broadband replacement for fixed infrastructure has been strengthened by the huge growth in uptake of 3G and 4G mobile broadband services in Australia, with telcos like Telstra adding on more than a million new customers a year.

However even real-world 4G networks such as the 4G component of Telstra’s Next G network, which is one of the leading 4G networks globally, have shown real-world download speeds so far limited to around 35Mbps, in testing by Delimiter and other media outlets.

The speed of 4G technology is rapidly advancing, but it is not believed that these 4G speeds will come close in the foreseeable future to the gigabit per second (1000Mbps) speeds which the NBN’s fibre to the home network will offer in the near future. In addition, the NBN’s gigabit speeds will suffer far less than 4G speeds from congestion as additional users are added to the network, and latency (responsiveness) is vastly improved on fibre networks — between 15ms and 25ms, compared to latency of around 85ms or higher on Telstra’s 4G network.

In addition, commentators such as Telstra CEO David Thodey have consistently stated that they expect Australians to buy both mobile and fixed broadband packages in future, as they serve differing needs; fixed broadband to supply homes with powerful connections to facilitate big downloads such as video, and mobile broadband when outside the home, for access to services which typically require lesser capacity. In addition, mobile towers typically also require their own fibre connections to funnel data back from wireless connections to the major fixed-line telecommunications networks.

It is possible that Randall, in his comments, was confusing NBN Co’s fixed wireless service, which is being rolled out in a number of non-fibre locations nationwide, for Telstra’s mobile broadband service. The fixed broadband service is slated to deliver speeds of 12Mbps to end users. However, it will also not have the capacity to surpass the main fibre to the home NBN and is only being deployed in areas where it is not economic to roll out fibre.

Randall also made a number of other controversial statements regarding the NBN, alleging, for example, that “no-one wants to sign on” to the network where it has been rolled out, “because it’s too dear”.

In fact, only a few short months after the NBN’s fibre was rolled out in rural communities such as Kiama in NSW and Willunga in South Australia, some 25 percent of local residents and businesses had already adopted the service. As the NBN is replacing Telstra’s fibre, that figure is expected to skyrocket over time as the previous generation of services is turned off. In addition, current NBN prices are directly comparable to current ADSL or HFC broadband services, with some companies such as Optus merely porting their old broadband prices directly across to the new network — meaning Randall’s claim that the NBN prices are too dear is questionable.

Kelly told Capital Hill the NBN was an infrastructure project larger than the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric scheme, and that it would eventually pay for itself as well as returning a seven percent return on the Government’s investment in it, and that the health, education and business applications to be unlocked by the NBN would particularly affect rural and regional areas.

opinion/analysis
Watching the debate between Randall and Kelly on the ABC’s Capital Hill program this week was quite amusing, I have to say. I’m not saying that everything Labor does is gold — because it’s absolutely not (hello, data retention scheme and mandatory Internet filter) — but Kelly clearly and succinctly outlined the benefits of the NBN in a way which really made sense to me, and I think Labor should adopt more widely. In comparison, Randall merely blithely repeated all of the common myths about the NBN promulgated by conservative interests. It was a very interesting study in contrasts.

To be honest, I thought the interview style really highlighted a weakness of the media right now, in that although Kelly was basically speaking the truth and Randall basically misleading the public, you wouldn’t necessarily know it from listening to either, unless you had pre-existing knowledge of the situation like I do. You’d just see two opposing points of view, both probably having some validity. I don’t think the ABC interviewer did enough to challenge Randall on his obviously inaccurate statements, and I think that’s something journalists need to do more with respect to public policy debates at the moment.

Image credit: Screenshot of ABC’s Capital Hill program, believed to be covered under fair use

171 COMMENTS

    • By that point fibre will be doing 100Tb per second.

      (and demand will be in the 100+gb/s range on average)

  1. The Liberal MP was so very very authoritative on something he knows very very little.

    Sadly I expect many people to believe him on the basis he believes himself, not on reality.

    The article was good, but I was very surprised you didn’t bring up data costs – the average use is something in the region of 20GB/month and growing at 50% per year + [See ABS] – this simply isn’t viable on a large scale wireless roll-out.

    • Correct and they need to be called out on it but it seems the all the main stream media is more than happy to let it slide. soooo frustrating.

    • The really disgusting thing here is the way Abbott has “legitimised” lying as part of the political process. This is the guy who said publicly that he could not be held to anything he said unless it was in writing and even then there were occasions when that was not the case. Then he turns around and has the gall to berate the Prime Minister for her sin of doing a deal with the Greens to be able to win Government.

      We will never know what Abbott’s response to the Carbon Tax proposal from the Greens would have been — they simply never trusted him enough to canvas the proposition.

      Back to the NBN – Abbott, Hockey, Randall, and others (not sure about Turnbull) just continue to lie and lie about the project. I agree that the electorate needs to be made aware of these lies. The shame is that Labor does not seem to be able to do this.

      Regards,
      Peter

      • “I agree that the electorate needs to be made aware of these lies. The shame is that Labor does not seem to be able to do this.”

        It is very difficult to disprove the likelihood of future events. All you can do is wait for events to unfold and show that the predictions were incorrect.

        It is also difficult to convince someone who has no specific knowledge as to what the truth is. This is simply because they have no point of reference. Don’t forget, all it takes to be right at the pub is to find someone who agrees with you.

        • Quite right about the pub debate, but the NBN is a bit more important than that…

          Given the obvious level of knowledge about comms issues among the coalition (about zero), they probably should apply the old adage:

          Say nothing and run the risk that you might be thought a fool; or

          Open your mouth and confirm that you are.

  2. 12 MBit wireless broadband sound suspiciouly like the NBN fixed wireless rollout that the NBN are rolling out now.
    It seems that Don has confused part of the NBN against the other parts of the NBN, and given Telstra ownership of part of the NBN.
    And “from a certain point of view” he’s right that it’s cheaper for the remote areas to use the NBN wireless, with it’s dedicated spectrum, high gain antennas, and cross subsidized pricing and wholesale access provisions, than to use fiber.
    But at least he should correct the record that Telstra isn’t doing it.

  3. If the person doing the interview had knowledge beyond political talking points, they would have easily shut down that Liberal party guy when he said wireless is the same as fibre. It’s like chalk and cheese. Then he should have also been called out, but the person doing the interview, that 12mbit is *not* enough now, let alone in 5-10-15 years time.

    I understand the interviewer is probably trying not to take sides, but there’s letting bullshit fly, and then there’s taking sides – very different things.

    • Spot on. This is a massive problem in the media in general. Unless the interviewer is switched on and well researched, they’ll get cut up every time. Lazy journalism is a scourge on the country. In a media cycle with the attention span of a 2 year old – by the time the interviews over the opportunity to retort is over and the damage is done.

  4. Is it any wonder that we keep on hearing this line parrotted by LNP people on blogs all over the place when their own federal representatives actually believe it themselves?

    This bloke Randall is a disgrace to parliament, he either has not done his research and does not have the first clue about the subject area, or he is telling bare faced lies for political gain – each are as bad as the other.

    To think that a bloke voting on a $37 billion piece of infrastructure either does not know what the hell he is talking about or is willing to publicly lie to enforce his position is actually very scary.

    Anyone interested in the LTE vs Fixed-Broadband debate can read my recent blog on this issue….

    http://bit.ly/KWd4C5

  5. Some people still don’t understand the difference between mobile wireless and fibre.
    The difference is bandwidth capacity.

    For fibre the bandwidth capacity is enormous.
    For mobile wireless the bandwidth capacity is very limited.

    So consider a family of four with each family member using the internet and each needing their own 12Mbps, ie 48Mbps in total.
    – for fibre that’s too easy.
    – for mobile wireless shared between thousands of families that’s a huge problem which leads to massive congestion.

  6. I find it so amusing when people who have read all of the NBN literature tell us about 40GBps Fibre…

    Yup, in a perfect world, with no deterioration in the fibre integrity, through the hundreds of splices necessary to get to your home, and with incredibly sophisticated and expensive equipment on the endpoints. Oh yes, the price of that will come down, which would explain then, when the price of the NBN has gone up…

    • 40Gbps is the current commercial limit on GPON technology, the fastest speed that commercialised technologies can offer over the fibre that is actually being laid as part of the NBN rollout.

      It can already run much faster in laboratory, non-commercialised form – forms that will be commercialised and brought to market, for updating the NBN electronics at a later a date.

      Find it “amusing” all you like, but that’s the state of play.

      Try watching this:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a2ne1WKxek&feature=player_embedded

    • You like Randall above are clearly talking confidently about something you have absolutely no knowledge about.

    • Hi. I work in this industry, for a FTTH equipment vendor as a system engineer. I deal in customer tenders, sales, support, and internal design meetings. I have been doing this for the past 10 years.

      Now that I have your attention;

      Typical installations have at most 10 splices between the headend and the exchange, not hundreds. I have never in my entire working existence encountered a solution that has fibre with so many splices.

      The worst one I had was a dark-fibre net that had 30 along it, and it was put out for a CBA as to whether the entire line should be replaced at all, as the reach of the line was minimal due to the terrible quality of it.

      Insertion loss from headend to customer premises comprises a small minority of appreciable loss, even at 10 splices that is only a 2.5dB loss in signal.

      I will repeat. Nowhere in my working experience have I encountered access network level fibre with MORE than 10 splices between customer house and headend. Your “hundreds” figure is misleading at the best, severely ignorant at worst.

      The line cards put out anywhere from 0 to +6 dB light, and the devices can receive down to about -25dB.

      A 64 way splitter (worst case scenario) induces nominal loss of 20 dB. Insertion loss on splices is typical 0.25dB. Fibre attenuation is nominal 0.17dB/km @ 1490nm.

      Using these figures you can clearly see that even in worst case conditions, you could still send a signal down to a customer that is living at LEAST 10km from the exchange….these systems are rated for 20km reaches. How far can xDSL technology reach? What speeds can they deliver?

      40xPON can deliver a 1gbps connection to a single customer quite easy.

      Typical cost of these fibre modems (NTD’s / ONU’s / ONT’s etc…) varies depending on feature set. It can be anywhere from 80$ upwards…usually upwards (with a ceiling cost at about $300 for the rediculously well featured ones).

      This cost can be amortised over the life of the customer contract, with slightly higher per/month costs, and so can be ignored. However if you want to run the lowest per-month cost, then the upfront installation fee should include the device cost.

      Even still…..$80 for a gigabit fibre optic modem is pretty cheap, wouldnt you say?

      The NBN price has gone up only marginally…this is capex cost, and it is due entirely to 2 things. The telstra/optus contracts were not factored into the original plans, AND build-drop was not factored into the original plan.

      With complete control of infrastructure, and a build-drop style rollout, penetration rates can be assumed to be near 100%.

      With any shared medium such as xPON, the more customers you have (the higher your penetration / density rates), the less it costs per customer, as you have full utilisation of your network devices.

      Put it this way…if I sell you a line card that costs $4k, can do 4 full 1.25 Gbit PON’s on it….and I only sign up 20% customers using 32 splits (thats ~ 7 people per pon), then I have to amortise the cost of my headend equipment amongst them. This means I would charge them $4k between them to pay back the cost of my line card…now I can include this cost in my setup fee or I can amortise it over the life of the customers contracts. Either way, they pay a huge sum of money

      ($624 each is their share of my headend costs to deliver that service).

      If I increase my penetration rate to 100% (32 customers per pon) then the cost per customer drops significantly ($125 per person).

      Now while the CAPEX has increased to take into consideration the extra fibre required over the life of the build, the OPEX will actually lower…..SIGNIFICANTLY. This means that customers on the NBN will be paying FAR LESS MONEY at the end of the day.

      Please don’t make these comments again unless you are informed….you have the ability to send people down the wrong path based on your entirely ignorant statements.

      • Great clarification of the facts and really interesting info. Good to hear from someone who works directly with fibre deployment and clearly knows what they are talking about.

        • …bugger. Either case, another 0.5db loss…whoopte doo.
          Well goes to show what kind of fibre our typical buildouts use ;)

        • @seven_tech,

          Upon review of these ribbon cables, there may be 12 splices, but there is also 12 individual fibre strands….thats one splice per strand per cable.

          Not anywhere near an issue….it would actually be exactly like the typical rollouts I see elsewhere in the world :)

  7. Another LNP Political Party Broadcast, written and authorised by Telstra Corporation.

  8. When wireless can offer me 100mbps with 1 terrabyte of data a month for $129.00 a month we’ll talk!

    Until then, I’ll use my 3g connection to check emails/light browsing – it’s far to slow for anything else!

    No Don Randall – 3g/4g wireless doesn’t fit my needs!

    • Speed + Cost is all well and good my friend, but make sure you also stipulate reliable service for that Wireless dream :)

  9. Nope, 12 Mbits is plenty. So now we know.

    Agree with pretty much all Renai’s thoughts. I think Kelly could have left out his bit of “return fire” at the Coalition about their own schemes and talked up the NBN more, as he came across as overwhelmingly assured and sensible without needing to dive into politicking. Labor would do well to talk up the positives any chance they are given I think, especially when you can remain calm and rational about it. The public has had quite enough of flying spittle contests from our politicians I think.

    Agree as well that its hard to work out who is telling the truth in “he says she says” type interviews, and that is the fault of the interviewer in many cases. Fortunately in this case Randall didn’t come across all that well, but Im sure it would be different if Mr Turnbull was the one laying it on.

    We also need a few Harry Jenkins type interviewers too, ones that can say “Order! the member will answer the question I actually asked or shut up”. I don’t think it would be rude to turn off the mic on people who refuse to do so.

    • “I don’t think it would be rude to turn off the mic on people who refuse to do so.”

      That wasn’t a dare btw Renai :P

  10. Actually, I can’t find a twitter account for Liberal MP Don Randall to provide him with some information – should be surprised?

  11. “12 megabytes a second is plenty”

    OK, for the purpose of this argument I agree.

    12 x 8 = 96mbits. Sounds like a 100/40mbps connection to me.

    Another Liberal MP in favor of the NBN and FttH. Bring on the fibre.

      • Sad thing is, the general herd dont get basic maths anyhow. Question on the radio this morning to 2 couples in a competition – thats 4 people, in groups of two. 10 seconds to answer – whats 12 times 13…

        Both couples failed. First couple ran out of time, second couple went with 146 on the buzzer.

        10 seconds is plenty of time for ANY basic math question.

  12. What a surprise; Don Randall is a complete knob. From Wikipedia:

    – Randall was one of five Liberal MPs not present when a motion was passed unanimously apologising to the stolen generations of indigenous children between federation and the 1970s

    – On 21 October 2010, Randall referred to Australia’s public national broadcaster, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC), the “Gay-BC”, in response to a journalist

    – On 15 June 2011 at a Friends of Mining lunch, Randall used the phrase ‘pussy-whipped’ to describe the mining industry’s relationship with Prime Minister Julia Gillard

  13. Just because noone else did …

    “12mbps wireless better than Fibre?”
    Bahahahahahahhahahahahahah…

    *falls off chair laughing and rolls around on the floor still laughing uncontrollably*

    We still have these kinds of people @ the networks. People who actually still believe that wireless is better than fibre for everything. Generally we call them ‘directors’ but sometimes they’re part of the Sales and Marketing Team.

    This is pretty funny tho, why you’d admit to a statement like this is impressive. They may as well have told the country we have No F&^*ing Idea.

  14. Would’ve loved to have seen Turnbull watching that interview:

    Randall: 12 megabytes a second is enough for anyone
    Turnbull: Oh god dammit! Randall! Computers and maths man, do you know it?? Then be quiet!
    Randall: Telstra’s wireless will surpass NBN fibre
    Turnbull: Honestly, why do I bother. *looks longingly at nearest high window*….

  15. I watch the video and the nbn part was just typical LNP (Turnbull need to put out a memo or somthing to shut these guys up).
    The best part I thought though was in the later half when they are talking about power cost rises there is a shot of Abott commenting on gillards speach. ” she [Gillard] is both missleading and ignorant”
    I think he summed him self up nicely on NBN matters.

  16. Sure it will surpase the NBN… If every roof tile in my house was a satellite dish… No but honestly, it saddens me to see these type of interviews being aired on TV and put in the news.

  17. “You cannot do things for business, education and health based on a wireless system; it will not work,”
    Talk about an own-goal – NBN’s big selling point is e-health and e-education to rural areas… that will be on12mb/s Wireless as part of the NBN.

    • Ran Dom. He was talking about mobile wireless. Not fixed.

      There is a rather a large difference.

      You can do stuff over fixed wireless that just isn’t possible, or affordable, over mobile.

      If you do not understand the difference between fixed and mobile wireless… I suggest you join the Liberal party and run for office.

  18. Using his mentality (a fairly low grade on at that) there is no need for the LNP’s FTTN either.

    • Strangely enough, ‘most’ people, and the facts seem to disagree.

      Statistics show the vast bulk of data is still going over fixed lines, and while the number of mobile accounts is increasing, actual fixed connections are staying fairly steady.

      Which is simply due to the fact that the fixed line market is already saturated, and only increases as new premises are built. While ownership of mobile devices is on the rise, as often families may have one or more per member.

      Take my family as an example. Three members, four mobile devices, one fixed line to the house.

      Can we do without the fixed line? Hell no. Because while we are home, all the mobiles and Ipads used the fixed line to send and receive data. Without it, we’d be paying a fortune in mobile data charges.

      But don’t let a minor item like facts get in the way of your rant.

    • “this Naive, incompetent , stutering Boof head should be sued for spreading lies”

      If only the law let us do that…we could sue almost every paper News Corp owns!

      • If people who say such things were hauled off to court, they’d simply get off…

        Because It’s not actually illegal, to be a dickhead.

  19. As usual your miss quoting is epic. He is saying most people will not need the NBN Wireless WILL be fine for most people the NBN is a luxury not a need. Business parks yes we need better speeds (which could be achieved with upgrades to RIMS in most areas) but Residential customers are leaving Fixed line in troves why would this arrest the trend? Don’t worry about replying you NBN fanbois will never no reality til you see this white elephant in action!

      • Alex just to put this into perspective this comment comes from the same one who once said:

        “anything over 8mbps at the moment is irrelevant to more then 95% of consumers! (in fact anything over 4mbps is)”

        • Hubert, the last two people I read about who said “WE” do not need 100Mbps or FttP were, Mark A, now having a holiday from Delimiter and the other, Earl, over at Nick Ross’ ABC blog.

          Ironically after telling us WE don’t need 100Mbps/FttP, as it is wasteful (iirc Earl in fact suggested 2Mbps would suffice and Mark was telling us FttN was the way to go)… Mark later in the very same thread admitted that he actually pays extra for FttH himself and Earl did the same, admitting that he pays extra for 100Mbps Telstra HFC.

          So today’s anti-NBN contradiction is an oldie, but goldie…

          But don’t you agree Hubert that it is most kind of these two gents (let’s not beat around the bush, let’s fittingly refer to them as Aussie heroes) to keep paying extra out of their very own pockets, continually for UNNEEDED FttH/100Mbps, exclusively on behalf of the rest of us, just so that they can then tell us… WE don’t need it :/

          • Indeed Alex. The thing I find most humorous though is that they will tell us all these low speed are sufficient all while endorsing a FttN rollout. Yep, I know it wont be much better than what we have now and yep I know it’ll never beat FttH but they are the ones saying ADSL2+ speeds are sufficient not me. No need to take them seriously anymore. Just give them a dial-up connection and a kick in the arse. Anything else is a luxury not a need. (I can play that game too).

    • I am trying to work out what you are trying to achieve here.
      Perhaps, you are seeking help with you spelling and punctuation.

    • ” Residential customers are leaving Fixed line in troves ”

      Being one of the ” trove “members, let me say I left because 32k dialup was of no use, and a non working voice line was equally useless. I wasn’t aware at the time of the Universal Service Obligation, but 5 faults in 6mths, with the problem never fixed was as much lost business as I could afford. (one symptom caller heard ringing phone, i heard nothing -but dialtone and outgoing worked)

      Mobile phone for voice, $1k worth of my own equipment to connect wirelessly to a working ADSL modem (3G isn’t comparable, even IF it worked here)

  20. You know the most telling part of this?

    When even incessant NBN dooms-dayers (yes even the one’s banned, who keep magically reappearing under a new name daily) who will normally mindlessly grasp onto any bullshit they can to toe the line…can’t find anything, not a single word or even a missing comma, to back this, err, umm, ‘gentleman’ ;-)

  21. A 12mbps wireless service will never even reach half that! This guy is an idiot and should be blacklisted from using NBN!

    Besides, today 12mpbs is not plenty.. sufficient at best. So what about in ten or 20 years?

  22. I would love to see the people who argue that “12mbps is sufficient” to sign a pledge to never, ever use a service that is faster than this speed for at least the next 20 years.

    Until they sign such a pledge, then I can’t believe that they are sincere in what they say.

  23. “…mobile towers typically also require their own fibre connections to funnel data back from wireless connections to the major fixed-line telecommunications networks.”
    I just wish more people understood this one line. I asked 40 or 50 people about this over the last six months or so and, honestly, almost every one of them thought a call from a mobile phone went directly, through the air, to the target phone, like a 2-way radio. When I asked some of them about calling from one side of town to the other most asserted that the call was ‘..bounced off a satellite.”
    Seriously, if you actually start asking people how they think these technologies work the amount of mis-information out there is mind-blowing.

  24. “To be honest, I thought the interview style really highlighted a weakness of the media right now, in that although Kelly was basically speaking the truth and Randall basically misleading the public, you wouldn’t necessarily know it from listening to either, unless you had pre-existing knowledge of the situation like I do. You’d just see two opposing points of view, both probably having some validity. I don’t think the ABC interviewer did enough to challenge Randall on his obviously inaccurate statements, and I think that’s something journalists need to do more with respect to public policy debates at the moment.”

    Totally agree and it is infuriating that people can’t / don’t do anything about it. It’s a process where the community switches off from public engagement and at some point along the line (historically speaking) we will lose what has made our community a great place to live.

    Can we appoint someone to go around and smack people like Randall with a big stamp on his face that says “I’m a F’n Idiot”. There are others that deserve it too, but he sure has earned his piece.

  25. “Telstra will beat the NBN at their own game”

    Just another dropped hint that the LNP Noalition is planning to drop responsibility for the NBN directly into Telstra’s lap like a hot potato as soon as they gain power. They don’t have any plan except that. Even if Turnbull believes he does (which I seriously doubt – the man takes on Pinocchio type qualities every time I hear him!), he will be sidelined the day after they win the election. Why, given the degree of obvious expertise shown by Randall, he may even get the Communications portfolio……..

    The man has the IQ of a squirrel – and that’s being unfair to the squirrel!

  26. Many people on this site seems to have resigned themselves to a coalition victory and, hence, damage to the NBN as it we know it.

    I would not be so sure that the coalition is guaranteed to win. There are several factors that may have an impact:

    1- The coalition strategy has been based on an early election, scaring people about everything Labor does (Carbon impost, NBN, the economy..) The problem with this approach is that if predictions do not materialise, the scare factor diminishes. There are signs that the Carbon price scare is dying down. With the NBN, concerns about delays and blowout cost and take up rates will evaporate over time with real world facts.

    2- Historically, Australian do not like having wall to wall coalition or Labor governments. A large majority of state governments of one persuasion makes it hard for the same party to also win the Commonwealth vote.

    3- Opinion polls are far from an exact measure, specially that far away from an election. As Martin Fishbein, the father of theory of reason action, finally conceded after 20 years researching the prediction of future behaviour, people will do what they say, unless off course, something makes them change their mind. There is also a lot of difference between responding quickly to a question and deciding what to do. Lastly, people will often respond in a way that is socially acceptable but sometimes behave differently in private.

    Sorry about the length.

    4- Even if opinion polls were correct and were to remain as they are, Labor will have a change of leadership. This, in turn, may lead to change to the Liberal party leadership.

    • Thats very articulated sir. I feel exactly the same way. I feel that while its more ‘likely’ to see an LNP victory, after people like Don Randall get up and show the country how stupid they are; I can see that Labor are still in with a chance.

      With the Greens preferences, I saw a poll only last night that had a LNP vote 56%, Labor 48% (before preferences) Labor’s got a very good shot at being relected. I’d like to see Gillard out, but whatever gets the NBN in (as its current form) is my vote.

  27. I would like to tell a little story about POLITICAL IDEOLOGY. Now imagine another parallel universe like the one we all live in except for one difference. Labor’s NBN does not exist (never thought of) but instead is being built by Telstra exactly the same with 93% receiving FTTP and the remaining 7% wireless/satellite.

    Telstra are in this universe a very caring private telecoms company which has been separated into two companies wholesale/retail done by the previous Liberal Government back in the 90’s. Telstra are happy to pay/finance this massive FTTP rollout over 10 odd years with retail prices to be the same as Labor’s NBNCo in the other universe. Everything is the same except there is no NBNCo (doesn’t exist) The question is would there be all this political footballing going on in this other alternate universe compared to our universe??

    The answer would be a BIG FAT RESOUNDING NO. Labor would be happy mainly because Telstra (two separate companies) in the hypothetical universe is nothing like the other Telstra (our universe), the Liberals would be happy mainly because of the private sector (in the hypothetical universe) doing it and Australia moves on to bigger and better things. The very sad thing about this very hypothetical scenario is that in this universe POLITICAL IDEOLOGY is all that is driving the Liberal agenda with no sign of deviating/altering from that narrow path. It seems it does not matter one iota how good Labor’s NBN is compared to the Liberal’s (whatever that is???) NBN regardless of the effect/outcome it causes Australia in our future compared to the other alternate universe.

    The Liberals need to have a good hard look at themselves and to question is this the best path to go down as regards to Australia’s future telecommunications needs. If in 2013 the Liberals win the election and “CAN” Labor’s NBN then there is no turning back. The damage will be done, there will be no future Labor type NBN. At best there will be some modest FTTP built in cherry picked areas with gradual expansion to other areas of Australia (both rural/regional/suburban) but over many decades (50 years or more) just like the copper/electrical grid did/and still is. This opportunity/turning point could be lost, there is no turning back.

    The Liberal National Party think about that.

  28. Surely there is a constitutional or business law that prevents this kind of slander against the NBN, a government owned business?
    How can the Liberal party be allowed to constantly discredit a government owned business. It’s at least immoral if not illegal!

      • Parliamentary Privilege is only applicable in a sitting parliament though isn’t it?

        I would have thought this would be a clear breach of the MP code of ethics though.

        http://www.dpmc.gov.au/guidelines/docs/ministerial_ethics.rtf

        5.1. Ministers are expected to be honest in the conduct of public office and take all reasonable steps to ensure that they do not mislead the public or the Parliament. It is a Minister’s personal responsibility to ensure that any error or misconception in relation to such a matter is corrected or clarified, as soon as practicable and in a manner appropriate to the issues and interests involved.

  29. Telstra’s claims are utter tripe.
    I live in North Bendigo and on ADSL2, my peak speed is 2.19Mbps. I have a wonderful (?) 4G dongle and of a nighttime, my speed drops to 19BITS per second, which is slower than dial up.

    Telstra will need to install extra towers before their claim can be half realized. I am happy for my full name to be published.

  30. It amazes me that these politicians can comment on technical projects that they clearly have absolutely NO idea about

  31. Two Words.
    Cell Shrinkage.

    Liberals touting wireless technology as a solution need to have a solid understanding of the principal mentioned above.

    In short – the more people you have hanging off a wireless access point, the SMALL ITS COVERAGE AREA BECOMES, and the SLOWER ITS AGGREGATE THROUGHPUT IS.

    If you want to run out towers as your solution for 12mbps minimum (though…wasnt 24 the figure everyone has been throwing around???), then you will need to have tower density that is geometrically larger in scope than what we currently have.

    Quite literally you would see towers every where you look.

    Each of these towers would need to be serviced by a fibre optic cable, and then what do you have? Fibre optics running past everyones house……to deliver a sub-standard service that is renown for being incredibly nasty for any fault-tolerant application (read: phone calls / video / games / interactive services).

    Basically only good for downloading large files…..thats about it.

    Do we really want to reduce our networks capability to that of a nation wide file transfer station?

    Cmon….what happened to wanting to do e-medicine, long-distance learning, and a whole host of other pretty cool, fault-tolerant stuff?

    Doing it wireless is doing it wrong….this is just from the application point of view, dont even get me started on power costs.

    • Cell shrinkage is not relevant here though, NBN connections are fixed to locations so each tower will have coverage for the respective connections and backhaul to cover the contention ratios.

      It would only be a problem if the NBN was mobile based with a constant moving of users between towers.

      • @Tezz

        I believe he was referring to Randall’s talk of “Telstra wireless”, which, we would assume, is MOBILE wireless.

        So it is relevant.

        • Indeed I was, sorry for the confusion.
          Telstra’s wireless 3g/4g network is a mobile device network, not fixed.

          Randall’s claims of this network being sufficient fails to consider that it is currently used as a mobile network, and if it were shared by fixed devices also, it would need to increase tower density to overcome cell shrinkage.

        • Well yeah, actually from that perspective it makes you wonder if Randall is suggesting the LNP NBN plan is not do anything and just let Telstra (and Optus and Vodafone) roll their 4G networks out.

          • My guess is he’s actually talking about NBN’s fixed wireless and incorrectly assuming it’s actually Telstra doing it. I have no idea why he’d think that, but the 12Mb/s thing is pretty telling. What wireless technology is Telstra rolling out that’s 12Mb/s?

  32. What I would like to see is the politicians rate themselves from 1-10 on technological competence so when they make statements we can decide whether we should believe them or not based on their own assessment of how well they understand the topic. They would really be forced to rate themselves honestly, otherwise, if they overstate their competence they will be shot down in flames every time they open their mouth and if they understate it no will bother listening to them anyway.

    For example, why should we believe anything Abbott has to say about technology when he freely admits he knows nothing. Even someone like Turnbull who clearly has some credentials in this area, if he rates himself 10 and then goes about telling lies the media can start asking the tough questions like you rate yourself as 10 but you argue points which are factually incorrect how do you explain that?

    Also the general public can readily understand a scale of 1-10. All the politicians can be ranked on a bar chart or something.

    Now clearly, they are unlikely to voluntarily do this so what about we do it for them. Renai, you are probably in the perfect position to start something like that.

    • @interrogativus

      Indeed. Unfortunately, the public listen to all this “unimaginative discussion” that comes from politicians. We don’t do this by choice- we do it because if someone doesn’t refute it, the public will assume the politicians know what they’re talking about and be mislead.

      It would be wonderful to live in a world where only those qualified to make a statement about things are allowed to….unfortunately we don’t. AND those people, for some reason, don’t hold the weight a politician does on public consciousness….

    • Aren’t you all sick and tired of the unimaginative discussion, pseudo financial assessments, false information and general lack of vision?

      +4000

    • Yes, totally. But unfortunately the Australian media prefer a slogan or quote from politicians and barely give any lip service to experts except to quote small portions of documents that in many cases don’t really support their prefered position, but selective quoting can appear to.
      The who argument as to technology is pretty obvious to those with even a passing knowledge in the area. The opposition based on financial grounds so obviously playing with numbers to put the NBN in the worst light possible. But what can anyone do if the mainstream media are happy to run with this? The only people, such as Kerry O’Brian, who question the false and misleading statements aren’t that effective. MT and TA just avoid them, no respoding to requests to interviews and in some cases going silent or running away. With a big proportion of the main stream media blindly reporting the FUD in a lazy, or agenda driven fashion, so that they still get a good chance to spread their FUD, what can be done?

      • Well I finally took a moment and put down my thoughts on that very subject today . See the link in my original post. I believe it needs more creativity from the techno community. I’m forever trying to explain to friends, their seniors and grandparents and basically anyone who is willing to engage :-) the benefits of the NBN.
        My blue eyed dream would be that people from the web and programming scene start posting some stories and visions that can be followed by the not so technically inclined.
        Maybe the Delimiter could start a “NBN Visionaries” section and collect and re-publish some “feel good” stories.

        • I find I am doing that continuously at work. There is a high percentage of technically inclined sorts, they all support the NBN and many have been following it. Then there are the non technical. The number who have said word for word the LNP BS. I have even saved one guy $10K on his new house. The builder was trying to charge him $10K that was needed to make his house able to use the NBN. $5K for connection to fibre, another 5K for totally over priced wiring. He did wire the house for gigabit, for less than 1K for the lot.

    • The only thing marginally credible about that story is the headline. And even that’s an “if” not a “when”. The Australian likes to speak as though an Abbott government is a sure thing and while it’s looking likely, I refuse to accept it as a reality until the votes have been counted. Even then if Abbott wins, I’ll probably put myself into a state of catatonic denial and hide under my bed for 3 years mumbling about “what could have been” while sobbing like a little girl.

  33. 12Mbit/s – wow……

    Now where does that fit in with the 21Mbit/s Turbo NextG service which has been running for many years….

    You get lucky to get 4Mbit/s from a 21Mbits per second and thats when the wind is blowing the right way and you can see the tower…..

    I am convinced the Liberal plan was for each member to get him/herself in the press, making themselves sound authorative….its about 1 a week at the moment…..almost a “look at me, look at me” competition……

    Regards
    Bob

  34. Liberal MP’s don’t know about Technology, just ask their leader :)

    12Mbps wireless will NOT succeed NBN, NBN for majority is Fibre.

    The rest is LTE (which is the new technology rolled out by Optus, Telstra).

    New Sat’s rolled out have plenty more bandwidth than current Technology.

    Anyone who agrees with Liberal MP’s on Technology views is technology ignorant.

  35. Has anyone noticed that NBNCo have left basically the estimate that 50% will connect at 12/1Mbps dropping to around 40% in 2028 (page 64 of NBNCo Corporate Plan). This suggests that the demand for faster internet isn’t actually as strong as many think.

    I won’t disagree that fibre is a better technical solution but with 4G from Optus and Telstra already consistently offering faster that 25/10Mbps in many locations and many mobile phone plans including quota it is easy to see that Telstra, Optus & Vodafone could easily snare a significant part of that 40%. Rather than paying a minimum of $45/month for the NBN, light users can simply increase their mobile phone plan.

    This might explain why Telstra are upgrading their mobile phone coverage in Prospect, SA one of the first places in SA to receive the NBN.

    • Have you noticed Matthew that nobody generally takes your points very seriously?

      Lets start here:

      This suggests that the demand for faster internet isn’t actually as strong as many think.

      No, it suggest that these are predictions are conservative ones. It suggests that even IN the case where nearly half of all connections are only 12/1, NBNCo. STILL makes its’ money. And if they DO turn out to be more conservative than actual, then NBNCo. makes MORE money than predicted. It’s called not counting your chickens.

      I won’t disagree that fibre is a better technical solution

      And by admitting it is the better technical solution, which, ultimately means it is the most COST EFFECTIVE solution (as better technical solutions usually translate into less upgrading and more capacity, through higher initial spend) you are then preceding to argue against yourself.

      but with. 4G from Optus and Telstra already consistently offering faster that 25/10Mbps in many locations

      40% of the country actually. And mainly in city areas- NOT in regional areas by numbers. AND there are only 500 000 people on this network, compared to the 15 MILLION on the 3G networks. How about we see what happens in 2 years time when everybody is on those 4G networks instead….

      and many mobile phone plans including quota it is easy to see that Telstra, Optus & Vodafone could easily snare a significant part of that 40%.

      I’m sorry, I was under the impression “1-3GB” of quota on average for mobile plans wasn’t actually all that useful for:

      – Catchup TV
      – YouTube
      – Cloud Services
      – HD Video Calling
      – Streaming TV
      – Streaming Movies
      – Gaming

      Which, put together, make up the majority of internet usage in Australia…..

      Sure, if you check emails and Twit a bit, fine. That’s what the majority of people DO on their mobiles and using their dongles….and then they get home and get on their XBox or PC….and use their fixed line to watch movies, TV etc etc…..

      Rather than paying a minimum of $45/month for the NBN, light users can simply increase their mobile phone plan.

      I love how you conveniently nudge up the numbers JUST to make your argument seem that little bit better. The minimum NBN plan is in fact $29.95 for 5GB 12/1 on Skymesh NBN fibre. Which, in fact, is still better than most of what you can get on wireless. For $5 more, you double your quota. Find me a wireless service that’ll do that? Oh that’s right, you can’t, because the capacity of the network is such that they don’t SELL quota that cheap to discourage high capacity use on it.

      This might explain why Telstra are upgrading their mobile phone coverage in Prospect, SA one of the first places in SA to receive the NBN.

      That’s precisely why Telstra are upgrading their 4G network in NBN areas. Because they intend to compete with the low-end of the NBN market…..the 7-8%, growing to some 15% and plateauing by 2021, of Australians who are wireless only households….not the 40% you think are going to get the 12/1 plan. Once again, the Corporate Plan predicts conservatively, it does not assure.

      Have you noticed how there are very few people who actually take what you say verbatim without doing their own research? You are trying to convince those people who have not yet made up their minds on the NBN, as those of us who have, have already said we disagree with you. But to those people, we say: Read on and find out. Don’t listen to us, look for yourselves if you are unsure.

      Perhaps you would be better off commenting on Mr Bolt’s Herald Blog- your attitude fits in quite well with those who follow him IMO.

      • The problem is you confuse your use of the Internet with what the average person does.

        If you consider that 1TB and larger plans exist, then if the average internet usage is 10GB/month then you are talking over 100 users using 1GB/month to balance out a single 1TB user.

        • @Matthew

          The problem is you confuse your ‘facts’ with ACTUAL facts. Actual facts state the average usage was 20GB, not 10GB last year. It was in fact about 14GB the year before even. That’s a 50% growth, which they continue to see. Meaning for this year, its likely to be 30GB….and then 45GB next year.

          Your model of ‘lots of lower tier user’s isn’t looking that great now is it?

        • On a direct price comparison 10GB from an NBN connection is far cheaper than from a 4G one, I don’t even want to contemplate what 1TB on 4G would cost.

          So what’s your point?

          And with usage you need to remember that yes people may not be using streaming video, etc, now, but as it becomes more integrated into common household items like TVs they will be, often without realising that they are.

    • “Has anyone noticed that NBNCo have left basically the estimate”

      I noticed page 70. Guessing NBNco decided to dedicate that one to you…

      “dropping to around 40% in 2028”

      False. It’s not around 40% it’s exactly 36%. Noticed you said on WP it was ABOVE 40% so your credibility is already in tatters here. Can’t read graphs or would you like to admit a bias? Take your pick, they both work for me.

      “This suggests that the demand for faster internet isn’t actually as strong as many think.”

      False. It suggests that conservative predictions appear in these plans and do not necessarily reflect real world numbers or demand. Hope that helps.

      • My credibility is shot?

        Up until the updated Corporate Plan was released this week your standard response was “The plan is out of date”, now you are back on the “conservative prediction” bandwagon without any evidence and the last plan was shown to not be conservative enough.

        • That is incorrect Matthew. The predictions for overall takeup have increased relative to total rolled out. As has the takeup of higher tiers.

          Speaking of the budget of the 2010 plan as ‘not conservative enough’ because of higher costs in the current plan ignores the scope changes of the NBN.

          But you knew that anyway and still ignore it.

          • > That is incorrect Matthew. The predictions for overall takeup have increased relative to total rolled out. As has the takeup of higher tiers.

            Page 75 states take up is predicted to be 70%. This is exactly the same as previous edition of the NBNCo Corporate Plan.

            With respect to the speed tiers what is seen is a reduction of the 25 & 50Mbps speeds in favour of 100Mbps.

            A little bit of accuracy would improve your arguments.

          • @Matthew

            First of all, my accuracy is perfectly fine-> what NBNAccuracy said above.

            Second, I may have not explained myself properly either, for what I ACTUALLY meant is if you compare the 2 Corporate Plan’s, the premises connected as a proportion of those passed, from 2015 onwards, the 2012 Corporate plan shows a HIGHER proportion connected. Therefore it is LESS conservative, NOT more, than the first plan, as WELL as including the HFC customers of Optus.

            Third, you FAIL to mention in that reshuffle from 50/20 and the 25/10 tiers that the 12/1 tier also GOES DOWN much faster in the early years AND overall is lowered by around 5% by 2028. So, AGAIN the 2012 plan is LESS conservative, NOT more.

            I believe I have made my point. My argument was PERFECTLY accurate. Yours, however, such as saying “minimum $45 to connect to the NBN” and “Average Usage is 10GB currently”, BOTH of which I have proved wrong, is INACCURATE.

        • Yes, shot. You are adjusting figures upwards and you are making arguments like this:

          “now you are back on the “conservative prediction” bandwagon without any evidence and the last plan was shown to not be conservative enough”

          Not conservative enough? How was that shown? Real uptake numbers of the higher tier were way higher then predicted. That is why the numbers are conservative.

        • “My credibility is shot?”

          It’s actually been shot for a while now. Does the product roadmap ring any bells with you? Actual real world numbers. Not predictions. You lost.

          “Up until the updated Corporate Plan was released this week your standard response was “The plan is out of date””

          No. No it wasn’t. In fact I can actually say the plan is out of date AND what is in the plan is a conservative prediction. There is nothing contradictory or conflicting here at all.

          “now you are back on the “conservative prediction” bandwagon”

          False. I have ALWAYS said the predictions are conservative and ALWAYS will be. Your failure to understand WHY is simply irrelevant:

          http://delimiter.com.au/2012/06/20/abbott-hockey-mislead-again-on-nbn-funding/#comment-472695

          “There will be nothing interesting in it at all. Predicted numbers don’t necessarily reflect real world numbers as the case is now and any numbers in a revised plan still have to be conservative.”

          “without any evidence”

          Speaking of evidence do you have any that the real world numbers will match the predictions in either NBNco corporate plan? Also follow up question: Can simply making a prediction be classed as evidence?

  36. Oh why? Why do these people comment on a technology that they clearly don’t understand?
    In what way will a 12Mbit wireless service surpass 100Mbit+ fibre?
    Data allowance? comparing wireless to fixed-line services suggests otherwise.
    Latency? pretty hard to improve on fibre. Uptime? Whatever it is, It’s certainly not bandwidth!!
    “12 megabytes a second is plenty,” fired back Randall.
    If you can’t tell a BIT from a BYTE, you are not qualified to comment.
    Also I wonder how “In greenfields estates, in my electorate, people are readily signing on” really? signing onto a service which doesn’t exist? somebody should probably look in to that – it might be a scam!!

    Its quite clear that this MP is blatantly lying.

    • “In greenfields estates, in my electorate, people are readily signing on”
      I know many that are signing on in these estates too. They have to, they are in RIM hell. So they get wireless while they hope a port will come free and cry as they get 5Kb of an evening.

  37. Wireless is absolute garbage… while it’s reasonable for 1 user, try having 2 or 3 using the net at the same time, it will slow down to a crawl and become useless. Try using it for business. no. it’s about as reliable as the Liberals telling the truth about the NBN. it aint going to happen any time soon.

    This White Elephant has already cost you an election in the past, This White Elephant is now used by Google, the UK, Sth Korea and others world wide for the strategic implementation of the future using the best, start of the art technologies that aare future expandable.

    This White Elephant stamped on you and shook the dust of its feet.

  38. Statement – iPads don’t need fibre to run the internet really fast.
    Answer – No but the tower that it is attached too need does, and a fair wack of spectrum to make it happy.

  39. While I Like wireless technology, a fixed service is still better, I’ve just cancelled my 4G service as I am no longer able to pick up a signal around my house, and I mean even going outside I can’t pick up a signal, so switching back to a fixed broadband service. wish we had fibre in my area but that’s not happening any time soon, puts us well behind other countries including those considered 2nd world!

  40. The article says “Randall’s statement that wireless broadband could surpass the NBN are also factually incorrect.” and then goes on to speak of the speed of wireless versus NBN as the subject of Randall’s expression with the word surpass.

    Randall’s quote is, “Telstra will have surpassed it by offering a cheaper and just as efficient service”. So he clearly gives context to his use of the word of surpass with the words “cheaper” and “efficient”.

    The article is therefore comparing apples and oranges.

    The point I would have picked on is that he says 12 megabits and then 12 megabytes. Megabytes is of course faster by a factor of 8.

    • The article is therefore comparing apples and oranges.

      No Randall compared Apples with Oranges when he make a direct claim that (as you quoted) “Telstra will have surpassed it by offering a cheaper and just as efficient service”. The FTTH NBN and Telstras (or Optus or Vodafone) 4G network are two completely different methods of delivering the end service.

      So he clearly gives context to his use of the word of surpass with the words “cheaper” and “efficient”.

      And here in lies the problem, 4G is not cheaper than FTTH, in fact it is exorbitantly more expensive. 4G is also not more efficient than FTTH, with mulitple factors including backhaul, spectrum, number of users, etc, affecting the overall localised performance.

      Please tell me you’re a one-eyed LNP voter or LNP member and not a techie, because there’s no way a self respecting tech worker could defend what Randall said.

      • “The FTTH NBN and Telstras (or Optus or Vodafone) 4G network are two completely different methods of delivering the end service.”

        Yes, they are different. He wasn’t comparing the underlying technology for delivery of a service. As I said he was comparing by the factors of cost (cheaper) and efficiency (not sure what metric he means by efficiency, it could be many).

        “And here in lies the problem, 4G is not cheaper than FTTH”

        Firstly, in this article’s quotes, Randall does not use the word “4G”. He uses the word “wireless”.

        In regards to cost of 4G, that may or may not be true. I’m pretty sure the infrastructure cost for any wireless roll out (along with no cable maintenance) will be less than an equivalent wired roll out. The difference will be that Australian telcos like to charge the earth for all wireless data (they always have, it’s a cash cow).

        “Please tell me you’re a one-eyed LNP voter or LNP member and not a techie, because there’s no way a self respecting tech worker could defend what Randall said.”

        Contrary to what you suggest, I didn’t defend what Randall said, I pointed out the semantic and contextual errors of both Delimiter and Randall.

        Clear and concise communication is important. It is even more important when you are a journalist or politician.

        • Firstly, in this article’s quotes, Randall does not use the word “4G”. He uses the word “wireless”.

          In regards to cost of 4G, that may or may not be true. I’m pretty sure the infrastructure cost for any wireless roll out (along with no cable maintenance) will be less than an equivalent wired roll out. The difference will be that Australian telcos like to charge the earth for all wireless data (they always have, it’s a cash cow).

          What wireless network does Telstra have that isn’t part of it’s mobile network?

          And what sort of wireless network are you suggesting would be more cost efficient as FTTH and deliver the same level of service?

          • “What wireless network does Telstra have that isn’t part of it’s mobile network?
            And what sort of wireless network are you suggesting would be more cost efficient as FTTH and deliver the same level of service?”

            I don’t know what service they offer that’s not part of their mobile network. Why don’t you go research it?

            I’m not suggesting the wireless network is more efficient, MP Don Randall is. Take it up with him not me.

          • You specifically said, and I quote..

            Firstly, in this article’s quotes, Randall does not use the word “4G”. He uses the word “wireless”.

            Now I ask you again, what wireless network does Telstra have that isn’t part of it’s mobile network?

            You can’t say the article here is wrong because it refers to what Randall said as 4G and not “wireless”, and then completely avoid the question of what “wireless” service Telstra provide that isn’t mobile. I don’t need to research it because I know Telstra don’t provide wireless outside of their mobile networks, and everyone here (except you it appears) made the direct link between Randall saying wireless and meaning mobile without any hesitation.

          • I repeat, and I quote,

            “I don’t know what service they offer that’s not part of their mobile network. Why don’t you go research it?”

            I’m not doing your work. You want the information, you go look it up.

            “You can’t say the article here is wrong because it refers to what Randall said as 4G and not “wireless”, and then completely avoid the question of what “wireless” service Telstra provide that isn’t mobile.”

            Oh really can’t I? Because I just did.

          • I’m not doing your work. You want the information, you go look it up.

            If you read the bit of my post which you conveniently didn’t quote, that’s the answer.

            Oh really can’t I? Because I just did.

            uh huh, so basically all you can do is nit pick Renai’s choice of words used in the article? That’s about it.

            Well you are either a fool or a troll, either way good day and be gone with you.

          • If you can’t accept that Delimiter has as much a mandate to use the correct words and to compare the correct items in context then you need a head check.

            Now, if you pull your head out of the sand you’ll see I picked on both of them:

            “The point I would have picked on is that he says 12 megabits and then 12 megabytes. Megabytes is of course faster by a factor of 8.”

            And good day to you as well.

          • @Frank

            Wait wait. You’re saying Renai is wrong because he CLARIFIED Randall’s comments in context….and that was wrong because he could’ve been referring to a ‘wireless’ that Telstra has which could, but DOESN’T, exist??

            Now I KNOW you are nit picking…

          • He didn’t clarify. He falsely extrapolated (that’s a nice way of putting it). They are two different things.

            Call it nit-picking if you will – that’s what Delimiter’s specialty is, so Delimiter can expect it to be applied right back on them.

        • @Frank

          The difference will be that Australian telcos like to charge the earth for all wireless data (they always have, it’s a cash cow).

          I’m sorry Frank but this assertion is incorrect. Telstra’s latest financial report shows the PSTN system gave Telstra a 59% profit margin. Their wireless network gave them 36% profit margin.

          Telstra, like all other Telco’s, charges a lot for its data over wireless because capacity on a wireless network is expensive. It is to discourage high data use so what happens to Vodafone doesn’t happen to them

          Wireless IS cheaper to rollout. It also has a FAR inferior capacity for data. THAT is why wireless will not be any serious competition for, nor be better than, fibre. It is not physically OR economically feasible to make it so.

          • “I’m sorry Frank but this assertion is incorrect.”

            You say I’m incorrect that they charge a lot for wireless but then you write….

            “Telstra, like all other Telco’s, charges a lot for its data over wireless”

            You can’t have your cake and eat it too ;)

            It’s not surprising they make such a good profit percentage off of a fixed line network paid for by the federal government as part of Telecom. It still has no bearing on wireless costs though. They price it to the maximum the market will tolerate. Regardless, you are comparing PTSN (copper network) when we are talking NBN (optic fibre rollout).

            So the situation you are meant to compare is wireless with the NBN (as the MP did). Tell me if rolling out the NBN to a neighbourhood is cheaper than wireless?

            I don’t care about performance comparisons – their is no comparison – NBN wins by infinity to 1 :)

            In regards to copper, it would be better for you to go and compare data for fixed lines versus mobile lines in a third world country that is implementing it. You’ll probably find fixed lines barely exist because they cost so much to implement compared to wireless.

          • @Frank

            You say I’m incorrect that they charge a lot for wireless but then you write….

            No, what I was saying was that they charge alot for wireless to artificially LIMIT its’ use. NOT because it costs more than fixed line. Wireless IS cheaper to rollout than fixed line. I don’t think ANYBODY has argued it isn’t. Its’ nature makes it so. But its’ nature ALSO makes it several orders of magnitude worse in performance. Conservation of Energy (or in this case conservation of matter, because you’re not using fibre) applies. Or, in laymans terms, you can’t get a free lunch.

            It’s not surprising they make such a good profit percentage off of a fixed line network paid for by the federal government as part of Telecom. It still has no bearing on wireless costs though. They price it to the maximum the market will tolerate. Regardless, you are comparing PTSN (copper network) when we are talking NBN (optic fibre rollout).

            That copper network paid for by the government hasn’t been improved substantially since it was built…and yet their profit margins on it have gone UP. Wireless costs have gone DOWN yet wireless profit margins have remained the same. Why? They’ve constantly had to improve wireless to keep up. (read what happens when they don’t – Vodafail) They’ve gotten away with not doing the same for fixed line and now we’re floundering in a sea of mediocrity (and that’s being generous) of broadband. Yes, they DO price it to the maximum the market will tolerate….like broadband….just like the NBN…. The costs of running fibre is LESS than copper. Analysts are predicting the NBN will make OVER 50% profit margins on fibre.

            So the situation you are meant to compare is wireless with the NBN (as the MP did). Tell me if rolling out the NBN to a neighbourhood is cheaper than wireless?

            That, as the honourable Randall knows, is an ENTIRELY subjective question. Of COURSE it is cheaper to do wireless. You bang a couple of extra towers in and people get marginally improved wireless speeds which will be outgrown before they are complete. THAT is the point. To give the SAME performance as the NBN ON wireless, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper to do the NBN, because wireless was NEVER designed for that capacity. Simply saying wireless is cheaper to rollout than the NBN is like saying it is cheaper for me to ride to work than drive- I live 1.5 hours by car to work….

            I don’t care about performance comparisons – their is no comparison – NBN wins by infinity to 1 :)

            As is my exact point….and yet you defend Randall?? That “The one technology, fibre to the home, which the NBN has come up with in this case, is going to be gazumped by Telstra, and this NBN will eventually be seen as the white elephant which it is, because Telstra will have surpassed it by offering a cheaper and just as efficient service.”

            The NBN is better, technically, in EVERY way than wireless AND it will not cost a cent over the 30 year life of the NBN…and yet Randall is STILL correct, according to you, in saying commercial wireless is a better alternative??? IT is NOT cheaper for the end user and it is NOT “more efficient”- it is a shared medium that degrades with more people using it. BOTH of these are what WE as the CUSTOMERS get. We don’t CARE what it costs the government, as long as it is responsible the way they are costing it, which the NBN is. And we don’t CARE that it is “more efficient” so the government has to do less work- we pay taxes, which pay their wages, they’re SUPPOSED to do the bloody work! By definition he is then incorrect, but you qualify it by saying “It’s ok, he meant it is cheaper to the government and more efficient as in we do less work”….yes, because that’s what we all want, government spending as little money as possible at solving problems and doing as little as possible very quickly….

            In regards to copper, it would be better for you to go and compare data for fixed lines versus mobile lines in a third world country that is implementing it. You’ll probably find fixed lines barely exist because they cost so much to implement compared to wireless.

            Why is this relevant to us?

          • “No, what I was saying was that they charge alot for wireless to artificially LIMIT its’ use”

            Sorry, I don’t care what reason you think they make it expensive for – it is still more expensive than it could be.

            “As is my exact point….and yet you defend Randall??”

            I’m not defending Randall, I’m pointing out Delimiter’s incorrect comparison. It’s not that hard to understand and I’ve said it a few times in this thread.

            “and yet Randall is STILL correct, according to you, in saying commercial wireless is a better alternative”

            Point to the bit where I say he is correct. What I say is that Delimiter’s comparison is faulty and that Randall’s cherry picking of points of comparison can be valid.

            “Why is this relevant to us?”

            It’s clear why it’s relevant. Sorry if you didn’t understand. It’s the comparison you were making (copper versus wireless) when the topic is about something else (optic fibre versus wireless).

          • Frank, you appear to be only interested in nit picking. You are essentially saying Randall’s picking out of context facts about Telstra’s wireless being faster than the LOWEST speed on the NBN (and not guaranteed) in a conversation that is about the NBN being made redundant because of wireless, is fine. That the people listening are getting the facts, even if they’re completely misguided and misleading. But that’s ok, because he wasn’t SAYING the NBN was pointless. Just that some wireless CAN outperform a tiny proportion of the NBN….

            WHY do you think this is ok??

          • “WHY do you think this is ok??”
            I don’t believe what you’ve written is an accurate reflection of the situation.
            I don’t actually care about the whys and wherefores of the speed comparisons.
            My main concern is that Delimiter recognise and respect the context of the politician’s words when making comparisons.
            My other concern was that this particular politician learn the difference between megabit and megabyte (or mebibit and mebibyte if that is how an ISP were to count it).
            These things matter to me. If they don’t matter to you then there isn’t much more for you to say really.

          • Well, some people only worry about pedantic points, others are more interested in the big picture.

          • And the big picture is made up of lots of little points. If you get enough of those points wrong, you get a distorted bigger picture. This is obvious to some of us.

  41. “WHY do you think this is ok??”

    I don’t believe what you’ve written is an accurate reflection of the situation.

    I don’t actually care about the whys and wherefores of the speed comparisons.

    My main concern is that Delimiter recognise and respect the context of the politician’s words when making comparisons.

    My other concern was that this particular politician learn the difference between megabit and megabyte (or mebibit and mebibyte if that is how an ISP were to count it).

    These things matter to me. If they don’t matter to you then there isn’t much more for you to say really.

    • @Frank

      So you’re interested only in UTTER bare facts and NO analysis of how RELEVANT those facts are?

      The context of a politicians words are EXACTLY how they mislead. If we can’t look at the context of their words and believe it is incorrect, how can we EVER listen to a politician?

      Delimiter analyses context as a matter of course on the NBN, because CONTEXT is how the Coalition mislead ON the NBN. Bare facts are irrelevant. The sun is 50 000 Jupiter’s in size. That is a bare fact. If I’ve asked the question “How big is the sun?” and that is the response, the answer is irrelevant if I don’t have extra information. That is EXACTLY what ius going on in this article.

      YOU may only be interested in bare facts. The rest of us analyse to see how much the Coalition are actually BSing about the NBN.

      Fact: Telstra are NOT producing a “12Mbps network” to “outer areas”. They are producing a 4G network to SELECT areas, including SOME regional areas, that has the ability, under the right conditions, to provide 12Mbps downlink to approx. 200 customers on a cell. About the same as the NBN’s “fixed” wireless.

      Fact: The cost of that “wireless” of Telstra’s is cheaper to BUILD but NOT to use.

      THAT my friend, is the importance of context.

      • Take a step back and read what is being posted by Frank, it isn’t an argument based on facts, it’s a nit picking of words with no context and it’s adding zero to the actual debate on the NBN.

        In short, let’s stop feeding the troll.

      • Facts eh seven tech? Show me some concrete evidence that they are facts – otherwise your just some guy on the internet saying “these are facts”.

        And bare facts can be perfectly relevant. It all depends on the fact, it’s accuracy and the person receiving it.

        How did you get that the sun is 50000 larger than Jupiter in size? It’s approximately 1/10th the diameter and 1/1000th the volume. Don’t worry, easy mistake, and astronomy is a hobby of mine. Hey – maybe I’m wrong!

        Now, as you say (and I’ve already said) context is very important. So why are you allowing Delimiter to take things out of context but not the politician? Double standards?

        So when your done making sure that every word possible from any Liberal politician is false (because it seems you want it so desperately to be) why don’t you approach the situation without your blinkers and realise that he may have a correct point or two (even if most of it were wrong), and that Delimiter has its own set of prejudices that you need to read past.

        The NBN is not by definition good (or bad). It is a piece of infrastructure being slowly implemented by our government. Labor did not invent it. Years before it was announced there were lots of tech geeks who thought a nationwide FTTN or FTTP network would be just grand (me being one of them). It may turn out shit. We don’t know yet – we’re not there.

        There seems to be an agenda of bagging everyone who even slightly questions the NBN or shows the slightest amount of support to Liberal politicians. It’s not helpful.

        • I’m not in any way getting involved in this discussion, other than to let you know seven_tech has been banned from commenting for a week , so he won’t be able to reply. I have no doubt that he will when he returns :)

          • Thanks Simon.

            Seven tech – I see things a little differently from you but I’m sure we’ll both enjoy the NBN.

            I think I’ll leave well enough alone and call it a day.

            Cheers.

  42. “My main concern is that Delimiter recognise and respect the context of the politician’s words when making comparisons.”

    The main context, here, is that his is a member of the coalition and he is trying to assist in the coalition’s attempts to misrepresent the NBN.

    • Do you think that an article by Delimiter is going to affect anyone but a tiny minority of geeks who read this?

      Do you think this will hold the politician accountable to your perception of how you think he is wrong?

      I think that Delimiter gets things wrong as well – why aren’t you holding it accountable for its mistakes?

      • There is a big difference between making a mistake and being either disingenuous, misinformed or misrepresenting things.

        I know you are trying hard but frankly your arguments are all over the place.

        e.g.”The NBN is not by definition good (or bad)….. It may turn out shit. ”

        Can’t having both ways. If it can’t be good, then it can’t be shit either.

        “And bare facts can be perfectly relevant. It all depends on the fact, it’s accuracy and the person receiving it.”

        So, facts are in the eyes of the beholder? Original concept!

        “And the big picture is made up of lots of little points. If you get enough of those points wrong, you get a distorted bigger picture.”

        Isn’t just what Randall is doing. Getting enough of those little points wrong and therefore distorting the picture. Saying that “Telstra will beat the NBN at their own game” or “In greenfields estates, in my electorate, people are readily signing on, because they get the upload and download speeds. The one technology, fibre to the home, which the NBN has come up with in this case, is going to be gazumped by Telstra” (that’s the context you forgot to mention is Telstra surpassing the NBN)

  43. I don’t think the Liberal’s even care if the NBN is better or not. Rupert, their Chief Propaganda Minister has a lot to lose (read money) if the NBN destroys his “almost” monopoly on the wideband propagation medium for Pay TV and propaganda *cough* media distribution. Just imagine the choices we will get that we cannot now when a fibre is attached to most of the homes. Why do you think Telstra has not “invented” multicast yet.
    Anything including the kitchen sink will be utilized, if it will protect Rupe’s investments. I would have thought by now, with such ludicrous claims having being slung and slapped on everything the poor people of Australia see and hear, that credibility has absolutely nothing to do with anything, but stopping the threat to Rupert’s investments is everything.
    Sit back and just laugh at the comedy of errors. Sit back and laugh at the rabid Sheeple. Relish the humour of idiocy for what it is. Ham it up on them and they will despise you for actually building on the crazyness of it all. Let them have an inch, but we can ramp it up to a mile and entertain everyone along the way! It can even be funnier when they haven’t a clue and actually agree with the joke.

Comments are closed.