news Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has rejected comments by his opposition shadow Malcolm Turnbull that a Coalition Government would proceed with Labor’s National Broadband Network project, describing them as a con, as misleading and “merely pretence” that didn’t reflect the reality of the Coalition’s actual NBN policy.
In an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald last week, Turnbull stated that a Coalition Government would proceed with the NBN project. “No, the Coalition will not cancel or roll back the NBN,” he said. “The NBN will continue to roll out but we will do so in a cost-effective manner in particular in built-up areas.” The comments echo comments Turnbull made earlier last month, when the Liberal MP publicly gave what he described as a “solemn undertaking” to the Australian people that a Coalition Government would “complete the job of NBN Co”, instead of ripping up the network or abandoning Labor’s NBN policy altogether.
The comments appear to represent something of a backflip for the Coalition. When Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull was appointed to the role in September 2010, the ABC reported that Opposition Leader Tony Abbott had ordered the Member for Wentworth to “demolish” the NBN. At the time, Abbott said he believed the NBN would “turn out to be a white elephant on a massive scale … school halls on steroids”.
Coalition telecommunications policy broadly focuses on fibre to the node-style broadband, which only requires rolling out fibre to neighbourhood cabinets and using Telstra’s copper network for the rest of the distance to residences and business premises. In comparison, Labor’s NBN policy would see fibre rolled out all the way to premises, in a rollout style which features dramatically greater speeds (up to 1Gbps, compared with an expected up to 80Mbps) and faster network latency compared with the Coalition’s plan.
In a statement issued this week, Conroy warned Australians not to be “conned” by the Coalition on the broadband issue. “The Coalition has over the weekend continued to mislead the Australian people over broadband,” Conroy said. “Mr Turnbull said they would ‘not roll back the NBN’, while his leader Mr Abbott asserted ‘there will be national broadband’.
“This is not a ‘backflip’ on broadband policy; it is merely pretence. The Coalition is not proposing to deliver the NBN. It is the same ‘quick and dirty’ patchwork of technologies that Mr Turnbull has been talking about since Mr Abbott challenged him to demolish the NBN. It is the same mindless reliance on the market that Mr Abbott has always supported. Mr Turnbull has not told Australians what network capacity he plans to deliver, how he will make the network open access, how he will deliver nationally uniform prices, or how long it will take before all Australians get faster broadband.”
Conroy pointed out that the Coalition had not committed to any speed, reach or capacity policy goals for its own rival broadband policy, while Labor’s NBN policy had committed to delivering a 100Mbps broadband service to 93 percent of the population, and 12Mbps to the rest. Similarly, Conroy said, the Coalition had not committed to the same structural reform of the telecommunications industry which the NBN is engendering through the separation of Telstra’s wholesale and retail arms, it was taking a private sector funding approach which would require higher rates of return than the NBN’s publicly owned model — and could see shareholders demanding higher profits be made. They will only invest where they can make a healthy return,” Conroy said.
“The National Broadband Network is under construction now and the design work is being completed for the national deployment,” Conroy’s statement said. “The Coalition has said it will honour existing contracts, but Mr Turnbull continues to call for a cost benefit analysis by the Productivity Commission. The Government is building the NBN because the private sector has failed to deliver high speed broadband across the nation. The Coalition cannot guarantee the private sector will deliver high speed broadband to all Australians.”
“Mr Turnbull has made 772 tweets, issued 26 press releases and delivered 7 public speeches in the first half of 2012. But he has not done the one thing the Australian people want from him – he has not released a broadband policy. The Coalition’s position on broadband remains one of total confusion. The Coalition cannot be trusted when it comes to the NBN.”
In his statement, Conroy provided an extensive list of questions which he said Turnbull had not answered with respect to the Coalition’s broadband policy, ranging from technical issues such as what broadband speeds it would guarantee, to the structural separation of Telstra, to pricing, to the issue of when the Coalition will provide costings for its policy.
opinion/analysis
Conroy is essentially factually correct here. As I wrote earlier this week, the Coalition is indeed being disingenuous in its current comments with regard to the National Broadband Network. I wrote:
“From what we know of Coalition telecommunications policy, it seems clear that a Coalition Government would immediately halt the NBN rollout upon taking power. It would then spend a great deal of time conducting a cost/benefit analysis into the project, before likely proceeding with a radically reworked NBN plan — so radically different that it would be very hard to envision the old NBN policy in the new. The Coalition may complete the “objective” of delivering high-speed broadband to Australia, but it will definitely not do so by continuing the NBN in its current model.”
However, I also think it’s important to apply the same standards to Labor as to the Coalition. The then-Rudd Opposition, in which Senator Conroy was Shadow Communications Minister, opposing then-Howard era Communications Minister Helen Coonan, took a broadband policy to the 2007 Federal Election which was only a few paragraphs long. I remember, because I reported on it — this is the article I wrote at the time. There were virtually no details of any kind.
Conroy provided virtually none of the policy details at that time that he is currently demanding from Turnbull, and in fact Turnbull’s activities as Shadow Communications Minister far outstrip the activities of Conroy when he was in Opposition. Perhaps if, as Turnbull has suggested, Conroy and Rudd did more analysis on the dynamics of their policy before they took office, the NBN would have been rolled out in a far faster manner than it has been.
Despite all the guff currently coming from the Coalition on this issue, it is a fact that Labor has had the best part of two terms in Government to get the project under way. A large part of its first term was wasted when Labor considered then abandoned its first fibre to the node policy. And its second term has been marred by an ongoing series of delays regarding to NBN negotiations, which perhaps could have been smoothed out through better planning.
It’s not as if Labor, in the Howard era, didn’t have enough time to plan its broadband policy. In fact, it had more than a decade.
Right now, I do believe Labor has the better telecommunications policy. It is well thought through, costed, detailed, and is being implemented. It is the best telecommunications policy Australia has ever seen, and Conroy is doing a pretty good job of keeping its implementation on track. In the absence of a better policy from the Coalition, it is the broadband policy I would like to see progressed following the next election. I really like the NBN policy. It does have weaknesses, but it is intelligent and a solid platform for Australia’s technology sector going forward.
In addition, Conroy is correct in his statement that the Coalition is being misleading with respect to its own telecommunications policy at the moment. I find much of the Coalition’s statements on the NBN over the past several years to be appallingly ignorant, and we have seen recently that Coalition figures such as Turnbull, Hockey and Abbott continue to put their foot in their mouth when it comes to the NBN.
But let’s not give up on the Coalition totally. In recent weeks there seems to have arisen a perception that the Coalition can’t do anything right when it comes to the NBN; that it is ignorant, backward-thinking, stuck with bad thinking. Much of this is true. But, if we’re being honest, for all that, the Coalition and Turnbull in particular are currently much more progressive when it comes to telecommunications policy than Labor was in Opposition. The truth is that the Coalition has to be; Labor’s own policy has become so visionary over the past two terms that the Coalition’s main problem right now is keeping up.
It’s OK to passionately support the NBN. It’s a project worth supporting. But we also need to do so with a sense of history, context and realism about the various political players involved. Conroy hasn’t always been the NBN visionary which he is now, and Turnbull isn’t always as dogmatic, ignorant and misleading as pro-NBN commentators paint him as being. Both have had their moments of triumph and their moments of ignorance (think about Conroy’s Internet filter for a second). The truth, as always in politics, is somewhere in the middle. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I’d like to see those debating the NBN keep this in mind and keep an open mind about the situation going forward.
Image credit: Kim Davies, Creative Commons
Nice article. Looks like things are hotting up. Maybe politicians will start debating the pros and cons of the various policies and force Malcolm to actually release some details of what he actually proposes to do.
BTW
” faster network latency ”
probably should be
” lower network latency “
I’m just waiting for the comments to roll in accusing me of being a Turnbull-lover and a biased Liberal voter :)
Dont forget the disingenious claims of you eating babies… :p
Personally, I thought your opinion section was quite balanced.
You take all the fun out of it =P
I noticed you mentioned that Labor made of lot of early mistakes with their broadband policy, but didnt mention that LNP is threatning to make all these mistakes all over again and waste another 5 years before we have a broadband policy that will go ahead, whether it be FTTN or FTTH.
Until Abbott no longer leads the LNP i will refuse to support them. I dont have a shred of respect for him for various reasons.
Renai, you fail to account one thing:
This is a minority government which, in theory at least, could break at any moment. Thats the only reason why I feel they should reveal more about their policies (and to know what I might be getting into) whilst it was no so necessary for them before the election or Labor before the ones before and parties before that, especially not 12+ months away from the election.
Thats irrelevant. What difference does it make being a minority ? If anything you’re BETTER OFF under a minority BECAUSE they know they cant just get away with any policy thats not in the publics interest. Its just as easy as (currently) two of those independants turning on the government and its shows over.
Majority governments are for people who feel insecure. Minority governments are progressive.
John Howard used to say that he “wanted to keep the bastards honest’. If anything, a minority government does just that. Majority governments are great for when you’re at war, in a tight financial spot or if you need massive policy change – but with current issues being minor a Minority Government is the best way for it to be.
As a side note – I agree with you that the LNP needs to show more cards. But you know what ? I dont think they will, because they dont have any.
I think what John was alluding to was, the opposition’s faithful keep saying, it’s a year out from the election the Coalition don’t need to divulge policies yet.
But the Gillard government, being a tenuous minority government… it would only take a slight tilt in the balance of power for the opposition to become the government overnight and, being so, their policies should be out there for all to see…!
I agree too, a minority government is better than a landslide victory to either side. Because under those circumstances, no one can keep the bastards honest, particularly if they also have control of the Senate.
As an aside to the current political situation – currently the ALP is in a formal alliance with the greens and together they control both houses of parliament. (They do need the independants for the house of reps). If the minority government is functioning well there should be no issues passing bills or forming policy and the ALP has boasted upon the record number of bills passed as evidence of this.
However, do we feel that the minority government is working well, “keeping them honest”?
– What did happen to those FoI reforms that were promised and new culture of transperancy? Weren’t the independants supposed to enforce it?
How is having multiple competing interests fighting for outcomes better than one party working in the national interest?
I’d suggest simply, because both major party’s ideologies aren’t in the interests of all Australian’s.
[Quote]John Howard used to say that he “wanted to keep the bastards honest’.[end quote]
Actually, it was Don Chip of the Aus Democrats who said that about all the big parties.
My apologies to Don Chip then. Sounds like a good bloke if hes willing to stick it to a politician.
I may not have agreed with your propaganda piece but you do bring some great aspects to the table in this particular issue. It is true both sides of politics have had their moments where it seems they are closer to drooling idiots about broadband.
Many of us are guilty of short memories, if the Coalition would rapidly adopt FTTH and make it a so called blood pledge, I would find it hard to criticize them for it. I find FTTH to be the best option for the country at this time. It is quite well thought out with only a few minor issues.
Things like ACCC oversight and greater industry consultation with pricing structures would be nicer, if the Coalition suggested improvements here and FTTH I would seriously consider them at the next election.
I think you sit on the fence quite well :)
Re. Conroy’s comments:
“The Coalition is not proposing to deliver the NBN.”
The Liberals will never implement Labor’s NBN because it is a policy scam that would only serve to tarnish the Liberal political brand of sound economic management forever.
On the other hand, it’s easy for the Labor Government to promise the world to everyone and pretend that their NBN is financially viable when they are desperately clinging onto power by any means necessary including policy lies.
“It is the same ‘quick and dirty’ patchwork of technologies that Mr Turnbull has been talking about since Mr Abbott challenged him to demolish the NBN.”
It’s the same set of FTTN technologies that Labor put out a tender for which it subsequently bungled due to political incompetence and KRudd’s arrogance.
“It is the same mindless reliance on the market that Mr Abbott has always supported.”
Spoken like a true communist.
>> “It is the same mindless reliance on the market that Mr Abbott has always supported.”
> Spoken like a true communist.
Maybe, but the fact of the matter is that the market HAS failed in Australia to deliver adequate national broadband. This is widely accepted and the reason why _both_ sides of politics are intervening in the market.
The coalition’s plan may well be about private infrastructure competition, but it’s far from “leaving the market alone to do its own thing”. 11 years of lack of intervention during the Howard years showed that nobody can break Telstra’s dominance as a vertically-integrated retail and infrastructure monopoly.
The fact is, it’s clear that the telco industry needs a reorganisation by government in Australia. The only question is how best to do it. Labor is building a network that will be accessible by every ISP and telco on equal terms, and can be scaled to support speeds well beyond 1Gbps to 93% of premises in Australia.
The Coalition is ‘hoping’ it can bring Telstra and Optus to its party by convincing them to open their HFC networks to wholesale competition (which both have steadfastly resisted to date), and eking out a few more years from the decaying copper network with FTTN technology that tops out at around 80Mbps in the most optimal conditions (and gives 30-40Mbps in normal conditions.)
Conroy is correct in saying that the coalition hasn’t outlined how it will make this patchwork of networks open to wholesale, and whether the pricing would be the same across the different technologies, and city/regional areas of Australia.
Pointing out that the market can fail is communist now?
It’s the same set of FTTN technologies that Labor put out a tender for which it subsequently bungled due to political incompetence and KRudd’s arrogance.
If KRudd had political incompetence regarding the way to deal with Telstra, then so did John Howard for his 12 years of failure to get Telstra to do anything of value for Australia.
Also, KRudd decided those technologies were going to build a Lemon. White elephant? or Lemon. I’d pick the elephant, at-least it will be rare, powerful and a sale-able asset. An FTTN with an agreement with Telstra won’t be able to be sold to anyone but Telstra if the government decides it’s a 16 billion dollar failure [cost of FTTN = 1/3rd of NBN according to coalition]. (who would sign up to be at Telstra’s mercy regarding Copper access! We’ve just lived with that for the last 15 years and see how much value Australians got out of that!)
The Liberals will never implement Labor’s NBN because it is a policy scam that would only serve to tarnish the Liberal political brand of sound economic management forever.
Whats the scam? Show me the numbers that indicate it will be a failure?
@PeterA
He won’t:
1- Because he can’t
2- Because it’s not following party line
“Whats the scam? Show me the numbers that indicate it will be a failure?”
The point is not whether you consider it to be a policy scam. The point is the Liberals know Labor’s broadband policy is a complete scam.
You can heap all the abuse you want on the Liberals, but that’s not going to change what they think of Labor’s policy on broadband. The Liberal political brand and reputation of sound economic management and policy making is extremely valuable electoral currency, and the last thing they will do is rubbish it over the NBN.
However, you are free to subscribe to Labor policy fairytales and believe anything you wish about the NBN.
Quite simply, if FTTP is important to you above everything else, vote Labor in 2013.
So where are their figures if you don’t have any then.
I really want to know
Actually, whats important to me,
Policy that tackles climate change (carbon trading scheme)
Policy that ensures during a boom in one part of the economy, that other sectors get relevant support (mining profits tax).
Policy that builds infrastructure during good economic times (NBN).
Policy that tries to remove undue market control by a fixed line monopoly that is both a wholesaler and a retailer (NBN).
Where is the coalition policy on these things?
What is the coalition policy on these things?
When will there be a coalition policy on these things?
@John
‘The point is not whether you consider it to be a policy scam. The point is the Liberals know Labor’s broadband policy is a complete scam.’
Ta. Thanks for confirming you and the Liberals are arrogant enough to think only you can have good ideas.
Have a nice day. Won’t be talking again soon.
“The point is not whether you consider it to be a policy scam. The point is the Liberals know Labor’s broadband policy is a complete scam.”
A scam that in years of asking the Liberals to produce figures to show why it’s a scam they can’t produce any. They do exactly what you have done, avoid answering the question.
The other ‘scam’ is Turnbull’s claim that he will build the NBN faster, cheaper and as good as the Labor plan. Here’s the scam part, Turnbull is going to build an inferior network and charge you the same for it. He believes that you the consumer should pay the same price for this inferior network and therefore his network will be worth the same as the NBN. He ignores lack of upgrade path for FTTN, he ignores questions on separation of Telstra wholesale and infrastructure.
Nailed it +10
In some ways I feel sorry for Turnbull. He is in the position that he is not free to put forward a proposal other than the one he is. It may be that this is what he really believes is the best for Australia, but if he doesn’t, what option does he have? Abbott would kick him out if he went so far as suggest anything over the bare minimum. He can word it however he likes, but it is the identical wishy washy, commit to nothing spin he’s been peddling for the last year or more.
You know the difference between a fool and a smart man ?
A smart man can do what hes told, but make up his own mind – then tell his superiors where to go.
A smart man keeps his mouth sealed shut so people think he’s a fool.
The fool blathers nonsense so people know he’s a fool.
“The fool blathers nonsense so people know he’s a fool.”
You said something about communists earlier?
+1
lol !
I believe the original saying is, “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt” – Abraham Lincoln.
“A smart man keeps his mouth sealed shut so people think he’s a fool.
The fool blathers nonsense so people know he’s a fool.”
At least we know that Hockey is a FOOL for this: The fool blathers nonsense so people know he’s a fool.
On the Sunrise morning show last Friday morning David Kosh asked Hockey what the Liberals will do about the carbon tax if they win the 3013 election. Hockey said the Liberals WILL REPEL the carbon tax within 4 weeks of winning the election. That’s what Hockey said, it’s on record.
Now who is the FOOL now??
Now who is telling LIES??
The Liberals CANNOT BE TRUSTED
Abbott today said that if he was Prime Minister NOW he would FORCE the latest asylum boat to return to Indonesia and not take them to Christmas Island. There are many reasons why that VERY MISLEADING/LYING
Now who is the FOOL now??
Now who is telling LIES??
The Liberals CANNOT BE TRUSTED
Yes, before Labor introduced the “carbon tax” Abbott was in favour of a carbon tax. He was opposing his own party’s ETS. I guess he loves to be in any sort of opposition.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-07/abbott-defends-carbon-tax-interview/2749496
Then there are the deceit about Julia Gillard’s ETS. Yes, it’s a tax now, to get a price on carbon, but changes to an ETS in 2015, that is never mentioned. Nor do the media play her full interview. They play the sound bite of her saying she will not introduce a carbon tax, but leaves out her following statement that she isn’t ruling out an ETS.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/julia-gillards-carbon-price-promise/story-fn59niix-1225907522983
“In an election-eve interview with The Australian, the Prime Minister revealed she would view victory tomorrow as a mandate for a carbon price, provided the community was ready for this step.”
And that’s even from the friends of the LNP, the Australian. Now the media seems to ignore she even said this pre election.
You sir, have just triggered my TRAP card.
Hey Noddy,
(In some ways I feel sorry for Turnbull.) I understand what you mean, the guy is smart enough to know that labor has the superior comms policy, but he has to pedal crap to please his boss, it must be quite humiliating for him.
I have to agree as well. I reckon the only reason he talked about dismantling it is because Abbott forced him too. I think he secretly likes the idea, and can’t wait to get his hands on it.
Either way the biggest problem will be when some government or the other decides that the NBN needs to be a profit making company, and turns it into the next Telstra.
The problem with Telstra has always been that as the main owner of the telecommunications infrastructure they have then had a major conflict of interest in then selling the services that infrastructure is used for. As long as Nbnco remains a wholesaler only, that issue won’t occur.
John if you have evidence for your claim of a financially unviable FTTH build please provide it. As Renai demands this argument needs to be based on fact.
Calling something a scam without explaining why is nothing more than hand waving. I could say where Howard got some policies wrong in my opinion but this is not a fact, it is opinion.
So we don’t need to prove things if we ‘know’ they’re true? This sounds like religion.
John sounds like Alain. I ‘know’ he’s Alain.
If the Libs know it’s true, then it must be. Who are we, us poor dumb slobs, to question their wisdom. Now shut up and vote them back in, you of feeble and inferior mind.
john is not alian. john is tosh.
Favorite quote is “Liberals will romp home in 2013” and shortening “billions” to “bln”.
“sound economic management ”
You keep using that phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
“The Liberals will never implement Labor’s NBN”
Great. More votes for Labor and the Greens…
“because it is a policy scam”
False.
“Spoken like a true communist.”
Oh dear, the “communist” booger man is coming to get us again. Keep that tinfoil hat on tight tosh.
“The Liberals will never implement Labor’s NBN because it is a policy scam that would only serve to tarnish the Liberal political brand of sound economic management forever.”
Abbott, Hockey and Robb have squandered their economic reputation long ago, through their
– railing against market mechanisms
– railing against economists
– railing against Treasury
– wilfull ignorance regarding the strength of the economy
– blatant contradictions about cutting taxes, increasing spending while somehow increasing revenue
– debarcles regarding election costings causing their accountants to be convicted and fined for breaking accounting standards
The only people who don’t see this are the people who refuse to due to their party affiliations.
Was it not Abott that criticized the quality of Australian economists? That is a great way to boost your economic credentials.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opposition-leader-tony-abbott-defies-economists-on-carbon-tax/story-fn961iy1-1226085675981
Basically it says economists agree that a tax and even better a market based ETS is most efficient, however Abbott says they are incompetent.
“Spoken like a true communist.”
Mate I dont think you’d know what one looked like if they hit you in the face with a Shovel. You’re basically being condescending for no reason. There wasnt anything ‘Communistic’ in that approach.
‘On the other hand, it’s easy for the Labor Government to promise the world to everyone and pretend that their NBN is financially viable when they are desperately clinging onto power by any means necessary including policy lies.’
It is. But its just as easy for the LNP to tell everyone they’re going to tear up the Carbon Tax or Rip-up the NBN. The LNP were seriously out on costings last year, what makes you think that this year’s going to be any different? Tony, Malcom and Hockey all have zero intention of costing the things they promise because they know they cant. Its exactly the same on the other side of the fence. As you put it: ‘its easy for the Labor Government to promise the world’ – Yes it is, but its both sides, not just one.
“Mate I dont think you’d know what one looked like if they hit you in the face with a Shovel. You’re basically being condescending for no reason. There wasnt anything ‘Communistic’ in that approach.”
Yes, buddy… Conroy and the rest of the union goons patrolling the Labor corridors of power are godd–n communists.
If you feel that certain parts of the market are underserved by private telcos, the correct public policy solution (as recommended by the Productivity Commission) is to employ targeted subsidies to incentivise private operators to build (uneconomic) infrastructure that achieves broader social goals that you wish to promote as a Government.
The employment of targeted subsidies is precisely the approach implemented by enlightened policymakers all around the world.
What you don’t do is arbitrarily decide to wind back decades of economic reform and re-nationalise the entire fixed-line communications sector; and in doing so, shunt aside the great wealth of entrepreneurial capital and knowledge currently in existence in the marketplace, and concentrate all the power and decision-making in the hands of ONE man (CEO of Labor’s state monopoly) as if he was some omniscient, infallible super-God-human.
Labor’s extreme totalitarian approach to policymaking reflects Kevin Rudd’s well-publicized dictatorial, “control freak” style of government. The problem is, in terms of policy wisdom and general competence, KRudd is closer in resemblance to the disastrous Chairman Mao than Winston Churchill.
So on one side we have a plan that involves investing in infrastructure that will have a ROI then on the other side we throw money, and let’s be honest that will be billions in subsidies that will not be paid back, so it costs the taxpayer.
Remind me who has the better economic credentials?
john earlier I tried to appeal to you by asking IF the NBN could live up to it;s promises…
But after now reading your latest offering I can see there is no compromise. Because my friend, imo, the Coalition and your line of thinking (as per below) are a 1950’s match made in heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
This comment makes it sound like the NBN is under control of the minister.
You do know NBN Co is a separate government entity right? Like Australia Post… I don’t see the government “in control” of Australia Post.
You also know the government plans to sell off NBN Co so it won’t .. Wait you know what? Have you read ANYTHING about the NBN? Do you know what policy you are even talking about?
This rant of yours sounds really… Unhinged. I’ll stop now, I’ve probably already exceeded Renais comments policy. Sorry John, sorry Renai.
Agreed we are pushing the comments policy limits, PeterA, so…
But I also think your point is most pertinent and can be elaborated upon before we move on.
This point…
“You do know NBN Co is a separate government entity right? Like Australia Post… I don’t see the government “in control” of Australia Post.”
Or even more ironic, NBNCo is a separate government entity… much like the
***Productivity Commission***.
You do if the only company that can be subsidised to implement the broadband is monopolistic and greedy to such and extent that you get a better outcome by doing it yourself.
“If you feel that certain parts of the market are underserved by private telcos, the correct public policy solution (as recommended by the Productivity Commission) is to employ targeted subsidies to incentivise private operators to build (uneconomic) infrastructure that achieves broader social goals that you wish to promote as a Government.
The employment of targeted subsidies is precisely the approach implemented by enlightened policymakers all around the world. ”
Do you know where these subsidies went in the last 2 years I’ve been reviewing network expansion ? Telstra. How is that a ‘fair’ system? Do you know how many Optus have been granted in the same time frame? 3% of the subsidy base. Network planning takes alot of time, it would be much faster to expand the network and infill or expand rural coverage if we were allowed those subsidies. We’re allowed them, we just dont get them. We’ve been after a subsidy at Roma, QLD for 2 more Optus sites for over 2 years, well before I arrived in the job. We havent seen a single cent, yet Telstra was awarded 750k in subsidies to expand its coverage in the same area to cover a CSG site nearby.
The subsidy system doesnt work if everyone doesnt get a look in. We had to pay for our expansions there, Telstra didnt. Its the same in 4184 – Bay Islands. We want to expand our coverage there to encompass the remaining parts of 2 islands. We didnt recieve a cent , all because we werent awarded subsidies under a ‘fair’ system. We’re lucky that Vodafone’s got deep pockets, or we’d never be able to fix it up.
“What you don’t do is arbitrarily decide to wind back decades of economic reform and re-nationalise the entire fixed-line communications sector; and in doing so, shunt aside the great wealth of entrepreneurial capital and knowledge currently in existence in the marketplace, and concentrate all the power and decision-making in the hands of ONE man (CEO of Labor’s state monopoly) as if he was some omniscient, infallible super-God-human.”
Yes you do (except the God-Human part). You MUST step in when the system clearly isnt working, thats the whole point of Government. If the system was working, we wouldnt have an issue with it. Its not. There are still massive areas still not covered even by ADSL ? how do you call this a ‘fair’ market – when its a guessing game to see if you get ADSL when you move premises ?
{The subsidy system doesnt work if everyone doesnt get a look in. }
The subsidy system works if it achieves the original policy intention: to deliver consumer access outcomes at the lowest cost. Whoever can deliver the mandated services should get the subsidy. Your entire post is just pure whinging about which operator gets how much money. This is completely irrelevant. The subsidy programme is aimed at delivering consumer outcomes, not revenue outcomes for telcos.
But which network “actually costs more”.
1. The non refundable $b subsidies for companies to build and own Australia’s comms network(s)
or
2. NBN with a 7% ROI which will pay itself off by 2034 and be an asset?
The answer isn’t hard (psst it’s #2)
Not to mention the 2nd option is also the superior FttP technology (woops I did just mention it ;) that private enterprise will have absolutely no interest in upgrading to, unless again given more $b’s and having alredy milked every last cent of profit from the lesser technologies, as preferred by the Coalition?
How does it deliver a consumer outcome without competition ?
You could just as easily charge for ‘roaming’ rates outside of a metro area because you have a monopoly.
Hey Renai, how about keeping an eye on this John guy, he’s going over the top and turning the debate into a fast.
I am keeping an eye on things. He’s skirting close to the line.
I just wish the rest of the ignorant voting population read Delimiter. Then with any luck Abbots NBN lies would fall onto deaf ears…
Best not have deaf ears. Hear what he says and how it changes depending on who he is talking to and what is most likely to get him elected. Then armed with that information decide if you want someone like that running the country.
I’m sorry Renai, but likening the Coalition policy with the 07 labor policy is being very very kind to the coalition.
A better comparison might be of Labor policy in 10, where they had actually put thoughts down on paper, but not actually done anything [significant].
Labor policy in 07 was in a vacuum. (actually, Opel existed, and I am sad it was cancelled)
Coalition policy of 13 is anything but in a vacuum.
Whats really funny? is Labor have been trying to do *any kind* of NBN for 6 years, and still the coalition don’t have a policy.
Sorry Renai,
I forgot to add in:
Damnit Renai, your true coalition colours are revealed! etc. etc.
(fixed?)
“Right now, I do believe Labor has the better telecommunications policy. It is well thought through, costed, detailed, and is being implemented. It is the best telecommunications policy Australia has ever seen, and Conroy is doing a pretty good job of keeping its implementation on track. In the absence of a better policy from the Coalition”
“Better policy” from the Coalition?
How can you beat:
1/ brand new installation of fibre to the premise for almost everyone
2/ fixed wireless and two brand new super expensive Ka band satellites for everyone else
3/ ADSL pricing for FTTP services
4/ regional/metro wholesale pricing parity
5/ multi-billion compensation to Telstra and Optus to keep them onboard
6/ no cost to taxpayers
Answer: you can’t.
lf you want to see Labor’s broadband policy fairytale continue to unfold, vote Labor in 2013.
Figures that show it will fail?
Oh wait, you have none?
@John
You just very well outlined Labor NBN policy. I’m not going to bother going through how it WILL achieve all that, cause you don’t care.
Can you do the same for the Coalition?
Please? We REALLY want to know.
I wouldn’t even care if it didn’t tick ANY of the points you have outlined John.
At least if it had some points that were concrete at-all that we could compare, I would be a thousand times happier with coalition policy.
“Answer: you can’t.”
Finally. An admission that the coalition broadband policy is substandard.
“lf you want to see Labor’s broadband policy fairytale continue to unfold”
Makes no sense. If it unfolds it wont be much of a “fairytale”.
“vote Labor in 2013.”
Or just vote for anyone but the coalition.
Sadly, not true – in Australia we have preferential voting, so you have to be VERY careful that your vote doesn’t end up with the coalition due to your elected candidate not achieving the seat.
Actually, while this is off-topic, I must say I am increasingly surprised by just how few voting adults actually understand how preferencing works. Even professional, educated people in their 50’s and 60’s who were born in, and have always lived and voted in, Australia. This is one (of many) key area where democracy is breaking down due to a lack of education (whether that’s due to inadequate initiatives or deliberately belligerent ignorance).
Agreed… It is something that is increasingly annoying me. I think I would rather see Crazy coalitions of several small parties, than 2 behemoths that naysay each other and then end up with policies that are surprisingly similar at times.
This is pretty much why I’m voting [ btw Im a full form voter, all those little boxes don’t scare me ;-) ] labor first till this gets done or the Libs (name used since we have a Coalition government in power, its just not the one we usually have.) fess up to a policy that i find equally suitable. Which as people have said, is going to be tough.
I work in networking, and even worked at Telstra for a while. Telstra were planning on switching to fiber anyway and the greenfield “Velocity” FTTH estate projects were the testbed. Fiber is unquestionably the future.
Only places I see for improvement on the existing plan are:
>>> Anything the current Gov can do to prevent the next one from changing things.
>>> Fewer POI. 14 is enough, dual/redundant nodes in each capital city.
>>> NBNCo should be buying not leasing Telstra’s ducts & exchanges.
>>> Plan for the ongoing roll out of more fiber! Fiber is long term viable for all but the most unfathomably remote locations. There’s no reason not replace every copper line with fiber over the next 50-75 years.
Also… Am I the only one that finds it strange how spineless the Nationals are in this whole thing. They cant seriously believe that supporting the coalition in all this madness is in their constituents best interests.
No Samuel, you are not the only one. I live in a National region and can’t believe my local MP’s lack of spine in blindly following the party line. I’ve spoke to him directly regarding this issue, and he, much like Malcolm and Tony just tell you how expensive the Nbn is and ignores any request to clarify the party’s policy. Regional Australia needs to stop complaining about their access to decent infrastructure and stop unquestionably voting for the Nationals at every election.
Yep, when someone like Katter is representing the Nationals better than the Nationals, you know the party brand is in trouble.
(PS I actually like Katter, he’s a whackjob, but at least he stands up and fights for his constituents)
But to do what Katter does successfully you need to remove yourself from party politics which for the most part makes you impotent in influence, catch 22.
@Ninja
100% of the reason I never want to get into politics. I’ve had a number of people swayed by my NBN arguments and (without blowing my own trumpet) have been told I should go into politics because I believe what I am saying. I say to that, to be a GOOD politician in this country as it stands, you need to NOT believe what you say to achieve it.
Bob Katter is a nutcase. But he’s a principled nutcase. That’s the only way he can be a good politician, BE A NUTCASE. Otherwise, being principled just makes you…..in our country and bad politician
We might need to get you on the road as a travelling salesman for the NBN.
Thanks to people like you I am honing my own arguments for convincing people of the merits of the NBN. I live in one of the safest National seats in NSW, so it is a tough sell sometimes, add despite the lack of sense in arguments against many are not willing to change their mind.
Keep fighting the good fight.
john, you just admitted the NBN can not be bettered….even with obvious sarcasm, you are right, it can’t, imo.
Then as such, you indicated that your entire argument is simply, based upon a gut feeling, that it just can’t be done/fairytale?
Too good to be true one might say…(and of course the underlying reason, no hoping Labor, could never pull it off)…
But what if NBNCo (not Labor per se`) can actually do it john?
If so, would you at least agree that ***IF it could actually be done, as is being suggested*** that it would be a fantastic build for Australia and Australian’s and therefore, worth doing as is now?
I await your reply with great interest but won’t hold my breath.
:)
“Conroy pointed out that the Coalition had not committed to any speed, reach or capacity policy goals for its own rival broadband policy….”
FINALLY Conroy pushes the point.
I WANT to see a Coalition policy. Partly to see if they CAN do better (although I have my doubts) and partly to just see HOW bad it would be compared to what we all think.
Come on Malcolm, give us back some REAL politics….
“Come on Malcolm, give us back some REAL politics….”
I assume you mean policies. We currently have plently of politics and very little policy.
@Noddy
Yes and no. Real policies definitely. Real politics, that actually examine weaknesses and contrast them against strengths, matching them to ideology though is good. We just haven’t had any…..for either side….
Oh, you want politics as it should be and was in the past, not what it has become :)
Real politics in action:
Labor: We will spend money, and build infrastructure for the country.
Coalition: No.
Actually, this is an excellent point, seven_tech – if the coalition decided to start doing its job instead of skiving off trying to buy popularity by being the class clown/bully (funny how little difference it takes to change a joke into a nasty, personal insult, huh?), we would have a better debate on the topic, actual real political pressure to deliver good policy and outcomes, and end up with a better result overall. As Samuel pointed out, reducing the number of POI’s, scrapping the duct lease arrangements and buying them (or *coughnationalisingthemcough*) and re-evaluating the business case for the length of cable rollouts (because if they could run copper out there, there’s no reason they can’t do fibre) are all very valid criticisms of the NBN as it stands today, but there’s no debate on THOSE topics.
As an aside, to honest, if the business case for fibre rollouts to regional areas isn’t economically viable, then THAT is where your government incentives come in – that is precisely where you can allocate part of the budget to say “we’re allocating $100 million annually over the next 20 years to replace copper telephone cables with optic fibre to remote regional Australia, ensuring that by 2033 99.5% of Australia will be connected to the national fibre network. We’re subsidising these rollout expenses as direct costs to the budget because they would not otherwise be initiated as there is no strong economic business case for cable rollout to small regional population centres. However, we aren’t just taking about economics here, we’re talking about people. We’re talking about heritage. We’re talking about Australians living the Australian lifestyle, about farmers and miners living in the remote Australian outback, who deserve to be treated like the rest of us. As their Government, we undertake this initiative to look after these Australians, to build a better Australia where everyone has the same opportunities as everyone else, whether you live in an inner city suburb or on a sheep station.” Or, you know, something to that effect…
@Trevor
My point exactly. With REAL politics, we would have criticality POSITIVE debate on the best process to deliver the NBN. We would have the questions asked about POI’s and duct leasing etc.
Instead we’re relegated to ‘We don’t need the NBN’ as our most intelligent Abbott is STILL saying now EVEN THOUGG they’ve pledged not to repeal it!!?
It really is horribly disenfranchising to see this whole debate consigned to the ‘NO, YOUR A POOPIE!’ 6 year old bin. That’s what my group is trying to inject back into the debate- some sense of rational and critical debate.
Ugh, I’m disgusted at myself. Now I’m going to grammar troll my own comment. *YOU’RE a poopie
@Renai
However, I also think it’s important to apply the same standards to Labor as to the Coalition. The then-Rudd Opposition, in which Senator Conroy was Shadow Communications Minister, opposing then-Howard era Communications Minister Helen Coonan, took a broadband policy to the 2007 Federal Election which was only a few paragraphs long. I remember, because I reported on it — this is the article I wrote at the time. There were virtually no details of any kind.
Which compared with the Liberal policy of if we ignore it it will go away! The only thing they promised was a 900million dollar subsidy to Optus/Elders (aka Opel) to put a band-aid on the gaping wound of regional communicationss to keep Nationals from revolting.
Rudd’s policy of “doing something on a National scale” regardless of the lack of detail, was one of the items that convinced myself and many others I know in the ICT industry to give him a go. We’d all seen Howard completely ignore industry advice to separate Telstra before selling it and then get absolutely nowhere with the belligerent 900pound gorilla it had created (partly due to the incompetent Luddites given the portfolio further demonstrating how unimportant it was to the Libs)!
The difficulty for the coalition is that they need to balance two outcome priorities: 1) build a network that will serve Australia’s future needs as efficiently as possible, and 2) have a different policy to Labor.
This second priority is essential for them because if the NBN is a success, it will be a constant source of crowing from Labor for decades to come (e.g which party had the vision to build the NBN despite the constant attacks of the short-sighted liberals etc etc).
The problem arises, therefore, if the NBN does happen to be the most efficient way of meeting Australia’s future needs. The coalition will need to find someway of re-badging the NBN. It needs to be sufficiently similar to ensure high speed broadband is rolled out and the aging copper is retired and Telstra is structurally separated, but sufficiently different to be able to reclaim it (we fixed it, we saved $billion) and thus provide a response to Labor’s gloating.
The likely outcome at the next election is that the new coalition goernment will ask the NBN Co board to save $x billion (scrap wireless, expand satellite, rollout fibre to 85%, etc) keeping the bulk of the project in tact (but screing the regions again). This will not be the best outcome for Australia, but it will be something that at least ticks most of the boxes and we can all file it away under the heading “Democracy sucks, but it is better than the alternative”.
Correct, Allan. National Party please note – the Liberal Party policy will screw the regions again. Nationals supporters are sick and tired of you changing your policy to curry favour with city-centric objectives. Do it once. Do it right. Do it with fibre. If you want to win regional Australia again, you should adopt the NBN as National Party policy, even if your coalition bedfellows don’t like it. They will hardly walk away from you, will they?
Wouldn’t each party be better off admitting when a good, popular policy is underway by the opposition?
We think that the NBN is good and people want it, we will continue it when we take office.
Now the things you don’t like, this is how we will improve them…
The thing is, the coalition is not interested in investment. Or an actual broadband network to speak of.
Their policy, well, the bits of it we know (it’s like a surrealist painting turned into a jigsaw, no-one really has any idea how the hell it actually goes together) is primarily aimed to prop up Telstra.
Calling people “communists” for supporting an INVESTMENT, over a Tax based handout to Telstra, for it to continue “playing nice” (which it doesn’t) strikes me as comical. And ever so slightly unhinged.
And the suggestions that L/NP will not scrap the NBN is likely a little hopeful. Abbott has zero interest in the realm and Turnbull is a poster child for wireless services. I can’t see (and based on Liberal policies of days gone by) a good outcome.
Folks might not like the NBN, but the reality is, there’s no “cheap” way to phase copper out. Turnbull will not answer FTTN to FTTH migration policy because it exposes the weakness of his policy – he is missing those stage 2 costs.
And you only have to see the costs being illustrated, today, of what it is costing other FTTN to FTTH migrations to get a glimpse. Also, Telstra wants out of copper. It would simply use funding to push fibre. So whether you like it or not, Fibre is where the world is heading.
“Fibre is where the world is heading.”
Indeed it is, even a backward country like the US is seeing the light now, article here titled “Fiber Is the Key to U.S. Telecom Diet”
http://www.wired.com/business/2012/07/telecom-regs/
“What’s the basic communications service that all Americans should have? Yesterday, it was a landline phone. Today, it’s a fiber connection.”
Renai, you are absolutely correct that Kevin Rudd’s 2007 election promise of a $4.7 billion, FTTN-based NBN Mark I lacked detail, but I disagree that it “wasted a year” before switching to the FTTP model.
It had become very obvious before that election that the coalition’s Optus-Elders proposal would not deliver the bandwidth to regional Australia for even double its $6 billion budget.
After winning the election, which effectively gave it a mandate to build FTTN, Labor conducted a year-long process of detailed architecture design and called for tenders. This process revealed that it would cost $11 billion to build, plus $15 billion compensation to Telstra for the copper tails to premises.
And at this point, an FTTP solution for terrestrial broadband became cheaper than the inferior FTTN option, for the simple reason that the coalition had previously sold Telstra the copper to premises.
Far from a waste of time, this process during 2007-2008 clarified the only way forward, saving us a huge taxpayer investment which Telstra secretly intended to overbuild with a private FTTP network.
Some great articles the last couple of days Renai, cheers once again.
No worries!
“Conroy provided virtually none of the policy details at that time that he is currently demanding from Turnbull, and in fact Turnbull’s activities as Shadow Communications Minister far outstrip the activities of Conroy when he was in Opposition.”
The crux of the issue, though, is that Turnbull is providing no details at the same time as saying the current plan is terrible and could be done better. I might just have selective memory, but I’m pretty sure that when Labor was in opposition they didn’t constantly work to discredit the coalition comms policy through lies and deceit – heck, they didn’t need to.
To put a finer point on it, there’s a big difference between “hey look, broadband is shit all over the place, we’ve got this vague idea to fix it” and “hey look, the current plan is shit we will do better, you just have to wait and see how”.
@ Karl…
In relation to Renai’s comment…
“Conroy provided virtually none of the policy details at that time that he is currently demanding from Turnbull, and in fact Turnbull’s activities as Shadow Communications Minister far outstrip the activities of Conroy when he was in Opposition.”
FYI gents…
7.30 report 18/6/2007… “And today – months after Labor announced its plan for a fast national broadband network – the government presented its own proposal. Labor’s $4.7 billion program would roll out a fibre to the node network (that is, fibre optic delivery close to the home or business) across the nation.
The Rudd opposition in fact, had their NBN policy out, months before the Howard government!
And from the *rolls eyes* files, guess what the then Coalition government said (again 18/6/2007)… “The Government will deliver a national broadband network, sooner and cheaper than the Labor plan.”
Quick Marty, we need to go back… back to the future!
The ironically funny part imo, was then Deputy PM Vaile in parliament, referring to Labor’s FttN plan as fraudband…!
+ Eleventy Billion internets to your good sir.
Current coalition policy is for fraudband and nothing else.
The problem for the opposition is that it has been out policied (if there could be such a word). The government, relying on industry expertise, has ambitiously gone for the goldl standard in broadband.
Tony Abbott’s tactic from the outset has been to depict the government as incompetent. It is, hence, imperative that Labor cannot be seen to do something right. They have tried everything to discredit the NBN.
Nobody needs it or want it. It will cost too much. It won’t be delivered on time.It will cost consumers more. Then, a switch of approach. We can do it cheaper and faster but don’t ask how. Finally, now we will deliver the NBN.
So why this progression? The NBN is happening. It is no longer a policy. It is project and if left to proceed, it will deliver. Having continually and repeatedly knocked it. The opposition has awaken our interest. All that is left to ask of them is how will this happen?
I live in a major NSW regional area, a few kilometres from the local exchange. We continue to struggle with a lack of adequate broadband services. Nothing I have read or seen or have been told suggests that the situation will improve in my lifetime.
On that bases, Minister Conroy, I conclude that it is not Mr. Turnbull employing a “con” but you. It is the NBN that is a massive Conjob being perpertrated on those who need something like it most. Bring on the election.
Based on the level of evidence you have provided, it would seem to be a baseless basis upon which you draw your conclusion. Remembering that we live in a two party democracy, can you tell me how the Coalition plan will help your hopeless situation?
The “bring on the election” quip was pointless. My apologies.
However, based on experience and evidence I remain unconvinced that the NBN even exists. It all seems a bit like lottery winners; I’ve never met one. Nor have I met anyone who has an NBN connection and I know plenty of people who live in areas where the NBN is supposedly available.
Shades of ’84… My tinfoil hat is in place… :)
Interestingly enough all sides of politics disagree with you and accept the NBN does exist. Hence the opposition’s criticism that the NBN isn’t been rolled out quickly enough. Of course you can roll it out half-arsed and cheaper in the short term or do it properly the first time. Only one makes real economic sense, the rest is just playing politics
If find it odd that people blame the upcoming NBN, for their current plight, i.e. decades of neglect from private enterprise.
The same neglectful private enterprise we can again look forward too after this wonderful election the Coalition faithful keep telling us about.
:/
So, you are going to vote for the entity that doesn’t have a plan, instead of the entity that has a plan and currently has rolled out to (an admittedly small number of) people already…
And you admit, it is because you don’t know anyone with NBN fibre yet.
Ooookay.
@Acer Bic,
I think your the one trying to do a con job on us, what major regional town are you talking about,
do you currently get ADSL ? back your statements up with something concrete. We what to know why under the current NBN plan you wont get adequate BB. Because if you wont get it under the NBN you sure wont get it under the coalition plan, why? because they hav’nt got one.
“I live in a major NSW regional area, a few kilometres from the local exchange. We continue to struggle with a lack of adequate broadband services. Nothing I have read or seen or have been told suggests that the situation will improve in my lifetime.”
And what town do you live in that’s got you so convinced that your area will never receive “anything” under Labor’s NBN in your lifetime??
I’ll tell you where I live, it’s in Whyalla South Australia and it’s so big state secret telling people where one lives, is it??
You have made this vague statement about never ever going to receive improvements under Labor’s NBN because it “DOESN’T EXIST”
Now where did you say you live again?? Town will be ok thanks
@ Avid Gamer, considering the Labor NBN Project is scheduled to provide fibre to most of Whyalla starting in 2014 and the Libs have not detailed plan AT ALL, you’d be a bloody fool to vote Liberal thinking they’ll give you something better than the current NBN rollout!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/71121999/Whyalla_NBN.PNG
“@ Avid Gamer, considering the Labor NBN Project is scheduled to provide fibre to most of Whyalla starting in 2014 and the Libs have not detailed plan AT ALL, you’d be a bloody fool to vote Liberal thinking they’ll give you something better than the current NBN rollout!”
I think anyone would be a bloody fool to vote Liberal even if they weren’t “scheduled to provide fibre to most of Whyalla starting in 2014” That’s why I can’t understand why Acer Bic would ever consider voting for the Libs because it seems obvious that his area is not in the first 3 year rollout plan. It seems he/she does not want to indicate the area/town he/she lives in as it might give an indication of his area being included in the next 1 or 3 year rollout plan. Especially if there are areas/towns nearby in the first 3 year plan.
Not a bad article. :))
What I’m concerned is that the Coalition will turn the NBN roll out in to the privatized debacle that we have with our telephony/internet infrastructure now. Currently, we have Telstra, Optus and Vodaphone all rolling out various ‘wired’ and wireless infrastructure This triplication is extraordinarily cost ineffective. Ask yourself this simple question – what would be cheaper and service consumers better – triplicated infrastructure or one shared network with every Telco on the same level playing field.
Remember the debacle when ADSL1 was rolled out and Telstra was selling ADSL wholesale at a price equal to or greater than the retail price. No wonder iinet etc screamed and the CCC stepped in but too late Telstra had gained a massive market share!
I live in the south of WA, Telstra has an absolute strangle hold, Optus is a fair way behind coverage wise, and Vodaphone doesn’t even get a look in. Despite this, the coverage available from Telstra for mobiles is disgraceful!!
WE had a real chance to remove Telstra’s stranglehold by NOT selling off the existing connectivity infrastructure and place Telstra where it should of been – right alongside and equal with any other Telco. But we blew it! Revenue was seen as a better target than service to the Australian public.
Why do you think Telstra is fighting the NBN all the way. FTTN is a minefield compared with FTTH because it necessitates using part of Telstra’s copper infastructure.
My greatest fears is that the Coalition will repeat this disastrous approach/process and outcome with the NBN.
NOT a good prospect!
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