opinion The release of Optus’ National Broadband Network plans yesterday represents the final nail in the coffin for the Coalition’s patently untrue claim that the rollout of the NBN will cause broadband prices around Australia to rise above current ADSL levels.
Several months ago, Liberal MP Paul Fletcher went on somewhat of a rampage against the NBN policy in general, based on what were then a limited tranche of early NBN prices released by national broadband providers like iiNet, Internode and Exetel. Prime Minister Julia Gillard, Fletcher pointed out, had stated in parliament that families would benefit from lower broadband prices under the NBN — alongside other benefits such as higher levels of competition and better broadband products in the telecommunications market. However, Fletcher claimed very publicly and loudly, the early pricing releases demonstrated the falsity of Gillard’s claims.
“I calculate that iiNet’s entry level naked DSL product today costs around 70 cents per gigabyte – but its new entry level NBN product will cost $1.25 per gigabyte, or nearly 80 per cent more,” Fletcher said at the time. And although cut-rate broadband operators Exetel and Dodo had already announced extremely cheap NBN plans, that wasn’t good enough for the MP — as he pointed out that the companies only had a minor share of the broadband market.
Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has also consistently attacked NBN prices over the past six months.
In August, Turnbull claimed the cost of NBN services would “widen the digital divide” in Australia. And when Internode first released its NBN pricing, the Member for Wentworth stated the ISP’s pricing demonstrated that consumer prices under the NBN would be higher than current broadband prices. “These serious gaps in the NBN business model will prove costly to taxpayers and more importantly, to internet users who may not be able to afford the hikes,” the Liberal MP said.
Now, these were pretty controversial statements for the Coalition’s dynamic telecommunications duo to make at the time; articles about the issue received hundreds of comments on Delimiter, and I’m sure many more on other sites. The two Liberal MPs raised the issue of pricing repeatedly over a period of many months and didn’t let up their attack on the Government.
All of this is why the release of Optus’ NBN pricing plans yesterday must be so satisfying to those who are in favour of the NBN policy.
As many commenters pointed out yesterday, virtually every single aspect of Optus’ NBN pricing plans represents better value than the telco’s current ADSL plans — and for exactly the same price. Optus doesn’t currently actively promote its HFC cable offering, so it’s tough to get an idea of what its prices are there. But if you compare its ADSL broadband plans to its NBN broadband plans, you’ll witness something phenomenal: The plans are virtually identical.
In naked DSL, Optus currently offers three plans, at $59.99, $69.99 and $79.99 monthly price points, and with 120GB, 150GB and 500GB of data quota included. And in naked NBN, Optus offers exactly the same price points and download quotas.
In bundled DSL, Optus currently offers five plans, at $79, $99, $109, $129 and $149 price points, and with 120GB, 500GB and terabyte download quotas, with varying amounts of call charges included — usually unlimited ‘standard’ local and national telephone calls within Australia, to both landlines and mobile phones. And in bundled NBN, Optus offers many of the same price points and quotas — except sometimes they’re cheaper. The company’s $79 plan with 120 GB of data has morphed into a $64.94 plan (with, admittedly slightly lesser calling value). The $109 bundled plan with 500GB of data and unlimited calls has been copied straight across, and so has the $129 plan with a terabyte of data and unlimited calls.
See what’s happened here? When it was putting together its NBN pricing plans, it’s as if Optus’ internal pricing experts simply hit Control-C, Control-V a few times to copy the spreadsheet of existing ADSL plans across into an NBN world, tinkering a tiny bit around the edges, but otherwise changing nothing for a fibred-up world.
You can imagine a couple of Homer Simpson-like characters sitting in a meeting room at Optus’ North Ryde campus, staring at each other. “The CEO wants NBN prices. What are we going to so?” one would ask, staring blankly at the other and chewing the end of their pen. “… not sure, dude,” the other would reply. “Wait — maybe if we just copy the ADSL plans? Do you think anybody would notice?”
“You’re a bloody genius!” the other would reply. “Copy and paste for the win!”
Of course, this isn’t how the conversation went in reality. In actual fact, I have no doubt that some very complex discussions have been going on in the Optus bunker over the past few weeks, as Optus’ financial whizkids tried to answer a very complex question: Was it possible to make the NBN unit costs fit the mould of the existing Optus broadband pricing structure, which had doubtless been built up through years of customer research?
The answer, it appears, is yes, and this is an answer that has very dramatic implications for the Coalition.
Over the past few months, both Fletcher and Turnbull have very loudly and publicly proclaimed that prices would rise under the NBN. This claim can now be objectively demonstrated to be false. Most of the NBN prices which major ISPs like iiNet and Internode have released were already comparable to current ADSL broadband pricing, and now Optus’ prices have been shown to be exactly the same.
The icing on the taste NBN cake, of course, is that while the prices may be similar, the service you’re buying will actually be dramatically different. Current Optus ADSL customers will be lucky to get upwards of 12Mbps speeds through their broadband connection. Under the new NBN fibre plans, they will not only get guaranteed 25Mbps speeds, but better reliability, latency and overall quality on their connections.
In summary, the launch of mainstream NBN pricing has now conclusively shown that Australians will pay at least the same, if not in some cases better pricing under the NBN than they are now paying for ADSL broadband. And they will get a much better service to boot. As Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said yesterday: “Critics of the NBN who have run scare campaigns that the NBN would be unaffordable are being shown to be plain wrong.” I couldn’t agree more.
So far, I haven’t noticed a peep from either Turnbull or Fletcher about Optus’ pricing plans. Yesterday the former Opposition Leader was too busy heaping praise upon the retiring chief executive of News Ltd to be bothered issuing a statement regarding the Optus prices, while Fletcher didn’t appear to be doing anything much at all, if you believe the inaction on his Twitter profile and official website.
The beautiful irony, of course, is that it has been nothing less than Fletcher’s own former employer — Optus — which has disproven his controversial claims about NBN pricing. The MP can’t be happy about that one.
Now that their claims have been proven false, one’s thoughts naturally turn to what Fletcher and Turnbull ought to do about the fact. Well, let me lay it out for them, in black and white, so that there is no ambiguity.
The path of an honourable man, when confronted by irrefutable evidence that he is wrong on any given issue, is extremely clear. He must admit that he has been wrong in his statements and his actions. He must admit so publicly, openly and honestly, cede the point to his enemies and acknowledge his failings. After this has been done, the path ahead will open up again, and he will be free to pursue new lines of inquiry, formulate new arguments, open new fronts in the battle and engage anew.
The NBN policy debate is far from over, and there are many fertile grounds for the Coalition to debate in Australian telecommunications policy before the next election.
There is no shame in admitting you were wrong. In fact, it is extremely healthy for debate and the ongoing function of democracy. The purpose of public debate is to rigorously investigate new ideas and test their strength in a marketplace of opinions. If they survive, they will thrive. But if they are proven false — as the Coalition’s NBN pricing claims now have been — they must be put down, lest they infest the clean conversation with their foul odour.
But I warn both Turnbull and Fletcher. If the two do not admit that they have been wrong on this issue, and do it soon, their comments will continue to dog them.
They will be left further and further behind in the debate. If they continue to insist upon claiming — against all the available evidence — that the NBN policy will lead to higher prices in Australia’s broadband market, they will demonstrate themselves to be not only inflexible thinkers, but dogmatic pursuers of cynical political outcomes which run contra to objective truth.
Moreover, the public — already significantly jaded by the Coalition’s unsightly and unfair attacks on NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley’s Alcatel-Lucent history — will start to take this side of politics even less seriously than it already is. If the Coalition viciously attacks innocent men in public and won’t admit when its telecommunications policy claims are proven incorrect, voters must wonder … why should the party be trusted at all? On any matter?
So, Messeurs Fletcher and Turnbull: Do us proud. Admit that the NBN will be decently priced and move the argument on. Or else — I promise you — many commentators will remind the public of this failing again and again until you do.
nah that’s how Pricing Managers work.
Cut and Paste baby 100% of the way.
hell its even cheaper and easier for Optus now that they don’t have to pay for DSLAMS and other crap like that.
100mbps tail at a comparable or smaller cost then a 12-24mbps piece of crap copper ULL….
you don’t seriously think that fletcher and turnbull will actually make a public admission that they were wrong do you?
they will just do what pollies always do when proven wrong.
they will simply stop talking about that particular topic and make a flood of new claims and predictions.
+1. Unless someone questions them directly on their previous comments, they’ll just stop talking about it.
*The release of Optus’ National Broadband Network plans yesterday represents the final nail in the coffin for the Coalition’s patently untrue claim that the rollout of the NBN will cause broadband prices around Australia to rise above current ADSL levels.*
it doesn’t. go read NBNco’s SAU — it clearly points out that NBNco is under-recovering costs with its current wholesale fibre pricing. this is not sustainable over the medium to long term. wholesale prices have to rise in the future, or NBNco will simply go bankrupt.
*Now, these were pretty controversial statements for the Coalition’s dynamic telecommunications duo to make at the time*
they are not controversial, in the least, if you understand simple financial concepts.
*Over the past few months, both Fletcher and Turnbull have very loudly and publicly proclaimed that prices would rise under the NBN.*
that is 100% correct. prices will have to rise from currently artificially low levels if NBNco is to recoup its $50bln+ project costs.
*Most of the NBN prices which major ISPs like iiNet and Internode have released were already comparable to current ADSL broadband pricing, and now Optus’ prices have been shown to be exactly the same.*
because NBNco is under-recovering costs as admitted in their SAU.
*Now that their claims have been proven false*
but they haven’t. just repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t change the fact.
*The path of an honourable man, when confronted by irrefutable evidence that he is wrong on any given issue, is extremely clear. He must admit that he has been wrong in his statements and his actions. He must admit so publicly, openly and honestly, cede the point to his enemies and acknowledge his failings. After this has been done, the path ahead will open up again, and he will be free to pursue new lines of inquiry, formulate new arguments, open new fronts in the battle and engage anew.*
you’re kidding me?
the biggest fundamental objection to Labor’s $50bln NBN is that it is overcapitalised. in other words, in order for NBNco to recoup its capital (even at low ROIs of 7%), broadband pricing at both the retail and wholesale level will have to RISE substantially.
this is THE issue.
*But I warn both Turnbull and Fletcher. If the two do not admit that they have been wrong on this issue, and do it soon, their comments will continue to dog them. Or else — I promise you — many commentators will remind the public of this failing again and again until you do.*
you mean the “tech press” (of the likes of Computerworld, ITnews, ZDnet, etc) will continue to publish rubbish articles blindly parroting the wisdom of Mike Quigley and ignoring all the voices of dissent coming from the industry itself about the viability of NBNco’s financial model?
nothing new there.
*They will be left further and further behind in the debate.*
LOL
no they won’t. if the trends in political polls hold, the Liberals will sweep to power…. the new Minister will immediately order a top-to-bottom audit of NBNco and the nasty, smelly can of worms will be revealed for all to see.
the game hasn’t even started yet!…. more fun times to come =)
*Moreover, the public — already significantly jaded by the Coalition’s unsightly and unfair attacks on NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley’s Alcatel-Lucent history — will start to take this side of politics even less seriously than it already is.*
the vast majority of the public still do not know who this “Mike Quigley” is, or even care about the fact that he lied to a parliamentary committee about Alcatel’s affairs.
well of course prices will have to rise, that’s how things work.
how much did you pay for your electricity 5 years ago? how about 10 years ago?
i’m willing to bet my left knacker that it was substantially cheaper than it is now.
also it’s probably not uncommon for startups to sell their services for less than they’re worth in order to generate turnover.
Prices for internet access in Australia have been rapidly declining for the past half decade
Not in south Brisbane, quite the opposite I’m hearing!
What’s a privately funded rollout in Sth Brisbane got to do with Optus NBN pricing piggy backing on top of a taxpayer funded rollout and subsidised NBN Co wholesale pricing?
z replied specifically to deteegos post…what has your comment got to do with that?
Because South Brisbane is what the Coalition wants to happen all over Australia – privately funded improvement to the telecommunications network. So it is fair to compare the outcome of Coalition policy with NBN, the outcome of Labor policy.
“Because South Brisbane is what the Coalition wants to happen all over Australia – privately funded improvement to the telecommunications network.”
Really? – I missed that key component of Coalition policy, where did they say that?
alain, not paying attention again? Malcolm Turnbull’s entire stated plan is to stop the NBN rollout and instead offer subsidies to private companies to build comms in underserved areas.
Puttting aside your glib one line précis of Coalition policy for the moment, I repeat what has Sth Brisbane got to do with it all?
Everyone can see exactly the point he is making it. No point replying to someone who pretends not to see the point simply because he doesn’t like it.
I await a post from your fellow shills saying they can’t see the point.
Humour me, what is the point he is making that I cannot see?
Yes I thought you would come back with a null answer that’s why I asked the question.
@Clinton
“also it’s probably not uncommon for startups to sell their services for less than they’re worth in order to generate turnover.”
So what are you are saying is that the NBN FTTH cannot compete against existing infrastructure like ADSL and HFC so the NBN prices have to be kept artificially low.
I wonder what you predicted pricing analysis is when those infrastructures are shut down and NBN FTTH is the only fixed line choice?
no that’s what you said.
i said no such thing.
Somehow I dont think Turnbull or Fletcher will admit they are wrong. They have a history of being proven wrong on numerous occasions in the debate and this situation is no different. If anything they’ll probably dig the hole deeper for themselves.
Well they don’t have to, if underpinning the Coalition point of view is that the NBN will cost a residence more than they pay today show me a voice only plan on the NBN for $22.95.
You can’t be serious! This is all you can come up with?
You can’t be serious! This is all you can come up with?
Hmmmm, the “Parrot Sketch” is coming to mind.
Stay tuned for alians “Derp mode” show, it is far more entertaining, any second now…
Yes got all of that diversionary waffle, still waiting though.
Waiting for what? Someone to take you seriously? Sorry but that ship has sailed . . .
Yes I appreciate you only want to read feel good stories about NBN pricing, when the opposite is brought up it’s time to put the head in the sand and move on eh?
We have one voice-only plan, from one provider that costs the same as Telstra’s second-cheapest option does today. And somehow this is “proof” that the NBN is going to be more expensive? Besides, you’re still yet to explain what people are using this super-cheap phone line from Telstra today if not to get an internet connection.
And you wonder why people don’t take you seriously?
So that’s still a NO then, you cannot find a voice only RETAIL NBN plan for $22.95, which will be interesting when it does come because the cheapest port on the NBN is $24 WHOLESALE.
Speaking of diversionary waffle pay close attention to this comment: http://delimiter.com.au/2011/11/10/optus-proves-coalition-wrong-on-nbn-pricing/#comment-199385
Yes and….?
Confirmed once again. Thanks for stopping by.
Sad sad sad….that’s the best he can do….on one hand they say wireless is the future….and yet, they still want voice landline??? WTF, i have 5 mobiles in my houshold, guess what? All can make voice call. I don’t even have a landline. With the NBN, i’ll be making voice call 24/7 for free if i want to. Shows that you are very economically challenged, paying $22.95 to make voice call when you can do all that for free, even now…….The NBN can be more, as soon as the infrastructure is in place, the applications will follow. Just like electricity, the grid is in place, TVs, microwaves, medical equipments etc etc follows and continue to evolve. You’re very narrow minded. Can you seriously say dial up was enough for today’s usage?
So that’s a NO then you cannot find one either, good glad we have that sorted
Alain. That’s right, no one can find the policy. There really isn’t one other some knee jerk announcements everytime something happens. First it was it should be wireless. Then FTTN. But since they are just saying these things and haven’t got a real plan anywhere you can cry fould on anything.
I have read that through a number of times, umm what?
Which version, this weeks or last months. Nothing to pick apart in it? You think the policy is comprehensive and detailed and ready to roll do you?
No and the Coalition have heaps of time to finalise policy as it’s not 2013-2014 yet, not only that they could follow Labor’s example of 2007, go into the election announcing one policy then change their minds after the election.
Plus they could go into the election of 2013 with no Communications policy Business plan then release it after the election like Labor/NBN Co did in 2010.
So many options, so much time.
And like every other time they will sit there and talk and actually do nothing.
Well don’t vote for them then.
“Well they don’t have to”
That’s right they don’t have to, the choice is theirs and in these circumstances it is up to us the voting public to call them out on it. Mission accomplished.
“if underpinning the Coalition point of view is that the NBN will cost a residence more than they pay today”
So basically what you are saying here it is up to the coalition to keep up the charade that the NBN will cost people more even though the facts say otherwise? Thanks for confirming their deceptive agenda.
“show me a voice only plan on the NBN for $22.95.”
Show me a ADSL2+ plan that achieves 40mbps upload.
Alain either wants the good old horse and cart that he’s used to, or a ferrari at the same price. We can all only hope that if he gets the ferrari he’s at least bright enough to not stuff oats in the gas tank.
So that’s a NO then you cannot find one either, good glad we have that sorted
better cut and paste than Optus!!!
Well I’m all for recycling, if the same phrase fits multiple posts as a response use it.
:)
“Will my landline phone cost more if I connect to the NBN?
No. The government is committed to the continued availability of voice only services for those who need it, at no greater price than they pay now.”
Guess you’ll get your $22.95 service
Glad to hear it, I guess if they wait long enough Telstra will increase the price of the cheapest voice only plan up around the $24 wholesale of the cheapest NBN wholesale offering.
Telstra Homeline Budget was up until recently $20.95 so obviously it pays to wait before rushing to release NBN voice only plans to meet the commitment of ‘ you will pay no more than you pay today’, and hope Telstra conveniently pushes through at least one price rise on HLB.
Glad to hear it, it is obvious that the longer you wait before publishing voice only NBN plans the better it is, because Telstra will help out so you can somewhat nearer to the current published port pricing on the NBN which is $24 wholesale.
Telstra just recently increased their cheapest voice plan from $20.95, so it’s a phew from the NBN Co they didn’t have to meet that commitment.
Perhaps if they stall long enough Telstra will increase the current $22.95.
Obviously the key word on the commitment timing ‘now’ is anything you want it to be.
Obviously ‘ today’ is anything you want it to be.
Oops buffer problems with my tablet, but you get the message.
in a recent NBN senate hearing, DBCDE bureaucrats revealed that there is nothing in legislation or private contract that binds Telstra to providing current equivalent priced phone only service
@toshP300
I think you mistakenly used ‘Telstra’ instead of ‘NBN Co’ in that comment.
wait.
you mean telstra have been increasing their prices over the years?
oh my god!!
this is an outrage.
toshP300, are you reading this?
how can you sit quietly while telstra increase their prices?
your blood must be boiling.
Nah, more profit for Telstra, for dividens for Tosh
only 16 comments so far?!!
need i point out that the headline contains the words: “Coalition”, “NBN” and “wrong”?
^.-
Yes but the headline has a condition attached to it: ‘Optus proves’, history has shown Optus never proves anything!
:)
LOL
I always I get a laugh out o discussions based on the common theme : [insert ISP name here] pricing proves the Coalition is wrong on NBN pricing.
In reality what they all should say is that:
NBN pricing is cheaper than current BB/voice pricing pricing except where it isn’t.
You too get more desperate by the day. Pricing of a major player is cheaper. Now have to argue that is because the NBN prices are too low. The phone only plans haven’t come out yet so argue that there is no plan lower than a $22.95 plan. What’s next when those plans come out? No dial back to base security system connects for alarm systems?
It’s been clear for a long time it’s not about discussion or the likes with you. Your fixed point of view is a FTTH Liberal conceived NBN is wrong. Don’t let things like facts get in the way just keep posting any negatives you find and claim them to be the nail in the coffin. If they are ever shown to be wrong attack the Liberals for a bit then find something else not covered yet.
“You too get more desperate by the day.”
umm do you mean you ‘two’ here?, or in ‘too’ as in there is someone else (unknown) who is also desperate? :)
“Pricing of a major player is cheaper. ”
Cheaper than what?
“Now have to argue that is because the NBN prices are too low. The phone only plans haven’t come out yet so argue that there is no plan lower than a $22.95 plan. What’s next when those plans come out? No dial back to base security system connects for alarm systems?”
If $22.95 voice only RETAIL NBN plans come out, note the deliberate emphasis on retail here not wholesale I don’t have a argument anymore, I can only argue about what is current as in the current NBN Business Plan on wholesale port pricing to ISP’s.
I look forward to wholesale pricing that allows ISP’s to sell voice only for $22.95 and still have a margin.
“Your fixed point of view is a FTTH Liberal conceived NBN is wrong.”
That’s true because there is no ‘FTTH Liberal conceived NBN’ I can be wrong about, perhaps you mean the other lot Labor?
” Don’t let things like facts get in the way ”
What facts?
“just keep posting any negatives you find and claim them to be the nail in the coffin. If they are ever shown to be wrong attack the Liberals for a bit then find something else not covered yet.”
I’m not really sure what you mean here at all, I will have to let that go through to the keeper.
Two, yes Alain it was a mistake.
OK Alain, so you are saying if a $22.95 or cheaper voice only plan comes out you will be happy. Nothing else to complain about? Good, so the everything else about the NBN is fine with you. Well that’s good. Just have to wait and see what the voice only plans are.
Wow, here I was thinking you were just complaining about everything Labour or NBN and it’s just that you want to make sure there is a cheap voice only plan.
No it’s not just about me being happy about a voice only plan, I’m a medium internet data user with VoIP, it’s for all those residences forced onto the NBN that don’t have any need for a fixed line internet line that will be forced onto the NBN, yes I know it’s hard to grasp in the closeted tech geek forums like this but they do exist and usually in the lower socio-economic bracket.
BTW it doesn’t immediately follow that I will therefore be happy about everything else about the NBN if it is released.
If they do release a Budget voice only plan they are only fulfilling a read the ‘small print’ obligation that they are keeping a very low profile on, but they are even careful with the wording on that, using the generic vague term of ‘now’ instead of a dollar figure, they could have inserted $20.95 but they didn’t, smart move that , ‘now’ is $22.95.
Also what does ‘now’ mean exactly, the average Telstra Homeline figure across all Homeline plans that vary from $22.95 up to $89.90, the Homeline Plan that the majority of Telstra customers use which I think I read as being Telstra Homeline Complete at $29.95, or the lowest plan of $22.95, or none of these Telstra plans specifically as the NBN Co uses a across industry weighting to come up with their own ‘internal’ figure?
“yes I know it’s hard to grasp in the closeted tech geek forums like this but they do exist and usually in the lower socio-economic bracket.”
Don’t even pretend to take that line. You don’t care less about how much it costs them. It is obvious from your other post that what you care about is Telstra profit.
“BTW it doesn’t immediately follow that I will therefore be happy about everything else about the NBN if it is released.”
According to the logic you use replying to posts it means exactly that.
“If they do release a Budget voice only plan they are only fulfilling a read the ‘small print’ obligation that they are keeping a very low profile on, but they are even careful with the wording on that, using the generic vague term of ‘now’ instead of a dollar figure, they could have inserted $20.95 but they didn’t, smart move that , ‘now’ is $22.95.”
Oh, so their is your out, even if there is a cheap plan it’s no good because they were obligued to provide it. Didn’t think anything could meet with your approval.
“Also what does ‘now’ mean exactly..”
Got no idea what you are talking about here. Want free phone calls? All go out and buy a TPG sim at $17.99 and we can all enjoy free nationwide calls 24/7, and they are mobile. Afterall who wants fixed line, mobile is the future.
Well ‘now’ is all about this NBN commitment:
“Will my landline phone cost more if I connect to the NBN?
No. The government is committed to the continued availability of voice only services for those who need it, at no greater price than they pay now.”
The could have said to make it totally clear and unambiguous:
“Will my landline phone cost more if I connect to the NBN?
No. The government is committed to the continued availability of voice only services for those who need it, at no greater price than $20.95”
They didn’t, why?
Another deleted post I see. My reply again. You can provide unlimited things they didn’t say. That renders the didn’t say arguement very powerfull. They didn’t say they won’t change $100 dollars a megabyte. You would use that one too.
No you cannot apply unlimited things they didn’t say, because as in your quoted example the port pricing at the different speeds are quoted specifically with dollar figures in the NBN business plan.
From this table ISP’s work out what they are going to charge customers for NBN plans at the different speed categories.
The only wholesale pricing yet to be given a dollar figure is voice only, still vaguely defined as ‘now’ squirreled away in a FAQ.
Ahh ok, you are talking about the wholesale price for a voice only connection not being specified. Unless I thought there was some conspiricy to rip people of and since people would be switched over to NBN voice over a 10 year period I would take ‘now’ to mean they plan to price the voice only wholesale at a price to allow supply of a phone connection at a rate matching whatever the copper line price is at the time of changeover.
Really, so you think the ‘voice only’ price only needs to be stated by the NBN Co when Telstra shuts down exchange areas, which means if you take a NBN Broadband plan in the meantime you either keep the PSTN line paying the line rental plus call charges just so you can have voice, or use VoIP which has additional overheads of a VoIP router or a ATA box if you want to use your existing analogue handset?
I think you have to consider all costs: if you want to compare voice-only services, don’t you also need to include the call costs?
An Exetel $34.50 plan + VOIP would work out much cheaper than Telstra’s cheapest voice-only plan once call costs are included (unless the phone isn’t used) and you get the added benefit of the internet
So from my calculations, everyone but those who wish to pay for a phoneline and make less than 1 local call/day will have similar costs under the NBN with better quality internet
The current Optus pricing proves nothing. Hardly anyone has access to the NBN so whatever prices an ISP conjures up is simply irrelevant. Besides, if the pricing is actually realistic then that would prove that there is such a thing as a free lunch. Greece, you ain’t seen nothing yet … Australia is catching up real fast.
Oh yer, rushing there. One of the worlds lowest debt to gdp ratios at 26% compared to Greeces 162% which is rising at about 20% per year.
Debt to gdp? What, public debt or private debt or both combined?
Our private debt to gdp ratio is worse than the US
http://www.incrediblecharts.com/economy/keen_debt_gdp.php
China is slowing and with it will go our means of staving off a deep long recession
The mining folk here think we have 20 years of boom ahead – too bad they have forgot about the great mineral deposit centre just acquired through war by the US. Yep – Afghanistan. Do people think they were just after oil? No – they surprisingly ‘discovered’ 3 Trillion worth of minerals in Afghanistan! Amazingly enough it just happens to be in areas secured by the US military – no surprises there. We will have mineral deposit competition soon enough once that operation gets up and running
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/oct/12/afghanistan-transparency-vast-mineral-deposits
Remember, when our government craps on about returning to surplus, they don’t actually mean debt cancellation – they merely mean we have stopped declining in terms of government spending – the total public and private debt is still on the balance sheets and must be paid out
We, like other western countries are facing a boomer retirement issue that has been known about for decades but ignored – that baby is going to cut across housing, industry and will impact everything – there is no escaping it
Now – onto nbn stuff.
If I sign up for say a 20gb NBN based plan – when I use the phone, does that eat into my quota? I’m assuming yes here – so if this is the case, don’t I need a higher quota plan than an equivalent adsl?
The other question is, what about upload traffic? Does this eat into your quota usage as well? Most adsl plans allow as much upload as you like
I’m just trying to get an idea how compatible in terms of normal usage an nbn plan versus an adsl plan would be
Since the nbn is trickle feeding what areas it will actually be working in, I’m thinking of signing up to the new telstra $78 200gb cable plan – I figure I’m unlikely to see fibre in my area within 2 years anyhow…
Voice requires a minuscule amount of bandwidth. Besides, the NBN gives you a dedicated 150kb/s of bandwidth, QOS’d at a higher priority for voice. But even if they didn’t give you that, then assuming that 150kb/s is actually what’s needed for voice (seems a little high to me, that’s CD-quality) then even if you talked 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for a whole month, that’s less than 2GB of data transferred.
Yes? What about private debt to gdp? Private debt is paid off by the person who borrowed it. There have always people who borrow beyond their means. You will see those same people selling off all the houses they bought when interest rates were low every time there is an interest rate rise. Some will go broke. Companies who over borrowed and didn’t recoup the money they spent will also be in trouble. To say Australia’s private debt is worse than the US debt though is spliting hairs. For all intents and purposes they are identical. Picking on a few percent in the current year on a graph that has follow the same trend with us being above and below by a few percent is just BS.
Now just imagine all this debt problem. The Banks are jumping around upset they might loose a some wealth here and there, jitters across the the financial field of a decrease in inflows of money to fill the coffers to maintain that MAGIC number that shows promotion of growth.
Bleach! It’s all a fantasy story which Bankers/Market live off as if it is reality. It isn’t. They have falsified the records for years in voodoo economics to bring their fantasy to life! Like a junkie waiting for the next fix, it needs it to be bigger and have more to be better. As usual, it eventually come to a point the life it is can no longer sustain itself and extinguishes itself. Welcome to the biggest Ponzie Scheme in the world. remember, Ponzie schemes are only not allowed in THE Ponzie Scheme.
Imagine the Financial system if suddenly every one said “DEBT REDUCTION” and no one borrowed for a few months. Hmmm, suddenly their book fixing would be noticeably apparent and we’d see their sleight of hand in “fixing” the money game, in their failure to really hide the losses of their mistakes. It is just like a Rogue Trader, but the whole Market is the Rogue.
So in all that, don’t look for answers of who has the money, from those who lost it and have not owned up to it but are blaming everyone else for it.
Jay, “whatever prices an ISP conjures up is simply irrelevant”?
Conjures up? Anyone with an interest in the NBN who hasn’t been living under a rock has witnessed the heavily scrutinised wholesale cost debate for two years now. Besides, all of the products which various RSPs have now proposed fall broadly into the predicted cost/bandwidth/data brackets which NBNCo charted in its 2010-2013 Corporate Plan of a year ago. A few have trimmed their profit margin below the predicted ranges to generate market share, but most are right with the predictions.
The pricing is realistic because the underlying wholesale cost to providers is less than it was in a mostly Telstra monopoly market, where even third party ADSL providers had to pay Telstra to install DSLAMs in Telstra exchanges, and pay again to reach their customers on Telstra copper.
Ignore them. Last desperate cries of drowning men. They want their point of view to correct for their own reasons. They will never stop coming up with reasons why the thing is more expensive or worse than the status quo. Even if the NBN rolled out for $100 a home and it was free for all they would argue the Liberals would have done it better and it would have cost nothing and Telstra would pay you to use it or some other pile of garbage.
If we are getting the same prices and same quotas then, we are paying fifty million for speed alone.
Harquebus, you forget that one third of Australians cannot even get ADSL, after fifteen years of leaving it to the market, as Malcolm Turnbull wants to do again!
Only about 20% of Australians have access to the equivalent Optus Naked plans, and even for these, while you are correct that the NBN will deliver speed increases, it will also eliminate the peak congestion of shared HFC bandwidth.
Only $12 billion out of the $35.7 billion ten-year budget is needed to deliver optical fibre to fully 93% of premises (10.1 million of them). The final 7% comprise 400,000 who will get guaranteed 12 Mbps wireless and 120,000 who can only be reached by satellite, which at 12 Mbps will be eight times faster than the pre-NBN 1.5 Mbps satellite services were.
So it is not “just a costly speed increase” as you imply.
First, the NBN is ubiquitous – no-one misses out, and almost everyone gets futureproof fibre. Secondly, it is cheaper at a household level than today’s line rental and ADSL. Thirdly, almost no phone calls will ever terminate at a copper phone, so they will all be free data calls (whether voice-only or video). And fourthly, wholesale revenue to NBNCo will rapidly repay the $27.8 billion of public borrowings in the construction budget, leaving the Commonwealth with a cash-generating asset in perpetuity unless an idiotic fiasco like the copper selloff is ever attempted.
“you forget that one third of Australians cannot even get ADSL”
So it would be cheaper to give them ADSL?
” after fifteen years of leaving it to the market, as Malcolm Turnbull wants to do again!”
Well he doesn’t actually.
“Only about 20% of Australians have access to the equivalent Optus Naked plans, and even for these, while you are correct that the NBN will deliver speed increases, it will also eliminate the peak congestion of shared HFC bandwidth.”
ADSL2+ and FTTN also eliminates peak congestion on HFC, the sole solution to that problem is not just FTTH.
“Only $12 billion out of the $35.7 billion ten-year budget is needed to deliver optical fibre to fully 93% of premises (10.1 million of them).”
That’s amazing, so what is the Government going to do with all that left over $23.7 billion, hand it out as a 2022 Christmas bonus?
“First, the NBN is ubiquitous – no-one misses out,”
Yeah that because the existing working BB infrastructure is being shut down therefoe by default ‘no one misses out’ because they don’t have a choice, you are right it is ubiquitous!
” and almost everyone gets futureproof fibre.”
Whether they need it or not.
” Secondly, it is cheaper at a household level than today’s line rental and ADSL”
Well it depends how hard you want to look, you obviously don’t want to look too hard at NBN pricing and what it includes, hence your selective choice of ‘line rental and ADSL’ and totally ignoring Naked DSL pricing and voice only plans.
“so they will all be free data calls (whether voice-only or video).”
Who is offering free data calls voice or video?
” And fourthly, wholesale revenue to NBNCo will rapidly repay the $27.8 billion of public borrowings in the construction budget, ”
No it won’t.
“unless an idiotic fiasco like the copper selloff is ever attempted.”
What idiot fiasco copper sell off are you referring to, it’s news to me Telstra is selling off the copper creating a ‘idiot fiasco’?
““you forget that one third of Australians cannot even get ADSL”
So it would be cheaper to give them ADSL?”
Come on Alain, that’s desperate even for you.
“” after fifteen years of leaving it to the market, as Malcolm Turnbull wants to do again!”
Well he doesn’t actually.”
Correct, Abbott does.
“ADSL2+ and FTTN also eliminates peak congestion on HFC, the sole solution to that problem is not just FTTH.”
That would also require Telstra to give a sh*t and upgrade their exchange backhauls, the major cause of ADSL2+ peak time congestion on many exchanges.
“That’s amazing, so what is the Government going to do with all that left over $23.7 billion, hand it out as a 2022 Christmas bonus?”
I thought you had read the costings?
“” and almost everyone gets futureproof fibre.”
Whether they need it or not.”
You are saying they should roll it out a strand at a time to each household when it needs it. Seems very uneconomical. (I did pose that as a question but you seem to love interpreting others posts as fact, so that is what you said)
Alain’s plan is to run fibre a strand at a time as households request it.
“Who is offering free data calls voice or video?”
I get them all the time and I only have ADSL2+, the video can get a little choppy in peak evening times but they don’t cost me a cent once I have a net connection. No way I could chew up all my quota anyway, I am not downloading movies on bittorrent or anything like that. You should look around a bit there are all sorts of things you can do with a network connection.
“No it won’t.”
Oh yes it will. Just as valid and arguement that one.
““unless an idiotic fiasco like the copper selloff is ever attempted.”
What idiot fiasco copper sell off are you referring to, it’s news to me Telstra is selling off the copper creating a ‘idiot fiasco’?”
Oh, you didn’t notice that Telstra was government owned and was sold off? Do you live under a rock?
So it would be cheaper to give them ADSL?”
“Come on Alain, that’s desperate even for you.”
Desperate? – lol really ? – for those that don’t have ADSL you give them ADSL, sounds logical to me.
“Correct, Abbott does.”
‘Shake of the head’ at that – Abbott does what??
“That would also require Telstra to give a sh*t and upgrade their exchange backhauls, the major cause of ADSL2+ peak time congestion on many exchanges.”
You know this how? – what exchanges are you referring to here? I hope you realise that competitor ADSL2+ like TPG , iiNet, Optus etc use third party backhaul, I assume there is no congestion there simply because it’s not Telstra?
“Alain’s plan is to run fibre a strand at a time as households request it.”
Where did I say that, and what’s ‘strand at a time’ mean?
“I get them all the time and I only have ADSL2+, the video can get a little choppy in peak evening times but they don’t cost me a cent once I have a net connection.”
lol I meant on the NBN, but thanks for confirming what’s available on ADSL2+.
Oh, you didn’t notice that Telstra was government owned and was sold off?”
Oh you meant the past staged Telstra privatisation, just say what it is, ‘idiot sell off copper fiasco’ had me thinking about something that has yet to happen, including the shutdown of Telstra copper so the NBN Co can get all the customers who would otherwise be completely happy with what they had.
TechinBris and Noddy.
oh that is disappointing, I thought you might have at least pointed out the specifics of all those masses of ‘misinterpretations and misquotations’ – not likely eh?
Love your work, keep it up.
What is the point. Throw pearls before swine if you want, but I know when effort is wasted. But in politeness to all in here, please desist in your mesmerizing arcane art of perverting the art of discussion. It has evolves us out of the caves and brought us all into an age of enlightenment, which incidentally we enjoy. We know you crave yesteryear and we know you will be happy there. So sit in your home with FTA TV, VoIP (oooohhhhhh) and surf the scary big Internet to your hearts content. No one WANTS you to have the NBN. But be a good boy and cough up a little cash like the rest of of us that are happy to have it and make sure the Farmers and Regional Australia don’t miss out either. If Markets can socialize the losses they make to the public, using your arguments, why can’t we also with the NBN. If they can do it, so can we! :{D
Love your work too. Congrats on getting Renai to delete the reply.
You and others should really get over these conspiracy theories, I have never asked Renai to delete anything in this discussion.
No you are simply asked a question which is too hard (so any and every question) and your reply is…
‘Why should I answer you , you are the multlple banned one who shouldn’t even be here”.
The interpretation – help RLM, save me ‘again’, by deleting these comments, because he is clearly proving my contradictory hypocrisy and stupidity beyond all contestation and you are my only recourse…
And quicker that you can say, I love Sol even more than Tony, voila..!
If you were here for actual correspondence and believed you could actually out-debate people on the issues, why would that matter? In fact youd be up for it, but alas…
Keep running Forrest.
@Noddy
“Lack anything decent use all manner of tactics to discredit or direct attention away from the facts you have no answer to.”
Assuming you are referring to me in that inference ‘show me the facts I have no answer to’ as you and I are the only ones having a active conversation what are they and what are those ‘tactics’ exactly?
I have asked you that before here:
http://delimiter.com.au/2011/11/10/optus-proves-coalition-wrong-on-nbn-pricing/#comment-201705
– it was met with silence, either state what they are or stop droning on and on about it!
“No one could be as dumb as you act sometimes.”
It’s not an act.
Speaking of unanswered questions alain….
Is HFC a worthwhile network or not? You have said it both is and isn’t, “so which is it”?
Will the NBN be a success? You have said it both will (as monopolies do you said) and won’t, “so which is it”?
Shall I continue (bet you can’t even answer that…) – LOL
Quick call out to “you know who”, to save you AGAIN, as it’s all becoming a little too hard for you…rolls eyes
‘idiot sell off copper fiasco’
I didn’t say that it was the other guy. It was pretty obvious what he was refering too however.
Alain, your post seems to be getting more and more desperate everyday. Doesn’t matter what the NBN Co does, you’ll NEVER be happy, you’ll always come up with some lame one word question, “where” and “Why?”. If you ask does questions, proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about 100% of the times.
People are demanding the NBN to be roll out in their areas. Even the Lib in VIC are complaining about the NBN not rolling out in their areas, and that’s from a Lib.
Not everyone have access to ADSL or HFC, even with ADSL, the further you are away from the exchange, the crappier your connections get. Can you show me an ADSL plan for $40, guarantee constant speed 20+ Mbps doesn’t matter how far from the exchange i am, unlimited voice calls, national and international, unlimited texting national and international?
@Salami C
“If you ask does questions, proves that you don’t know what you’re talking about 100% of the times. ”
Most questions are asked because contributors are posting complete BS, most times they are never answered and ignored or if they are answered it makes no sense at all with tortured grammar mixed in with off-topic meandering BS, which is deliberate of course.
BTW on that subject I have asked awkward questions of you many times before, you simply disappear, only to reappear much later as if nothing like that ever happened.
There is one thing that underpins pro-NBN argument, ignore the uncomfortable stuff and go for the personal attack if it gets to uncomfortable, and when in doubt use the fall-back option, crap on about generic BS like nation building and ‘we will be left behind in the World’ if we don’t have FTTH etc etc – blah!
“People are demanding the NBN to be roll out in their areas.’
Yes but you are referring to areas that have crap or non existent BB anyway, at the moment the Labor Government is rolling out FTTH and most other private fixed line rollout is at a total standstill because of that, the second biggest Telco Optus stopped its DSLAM rollout in 2009, why spend your own $$ when you can piggy back off the taxpayer in the future?
In areas that are adequately serviced by alternative high speed broadband like Brunswick in Victoria the reception to the NBN is decidedly lukewarm, I don’t see the MP for that area nor the residents demanding the rollout be increased from the pitifully small block in that suburb currently active as a priority.
Funny that eh?
If the Coalition had won power in 2010 and were rolling out their version of BB the same cries would come from Labor electorate MP’s, we want to be upped on the rollout priority, Coalition areas are being given priory – waaa, that’s politics.
To infer that is total endorsement of the Labor NBN FTTH Plan is disingenuous, areas that are poorly served with BB or don’t have it all just want better than what they have, if Telstra came into those areas and said you are the first priority areas on the LTE rollout and we are giving you all USB LTE modems and 30 gig plans for $40 they would be happy with that, the Labor plan is the only dim light in that ever moving distant 2022 horizon that exists for them.
“Can you show me an ADSL plan for $40, guarantee constant speed 20+ Mbps doesn’t matter how far from the exchange i am, unlimited voice calls, national and international, unlimited texting national and international?”
Can you show me a NBN Plan that does all of that?
It’s mesmerizing watching someone disappear up it’s own ass so many times as Alain is. Terrifying when it continues to make us continual witnesses. I used to find it amusing, but now it is dreadfully sad. It is like the same joke over and over. One gets tired of it. :{(
-DONG- the sound of Delimiters resident troll appearing from under the bridge once again.
I am sorry Alain, are you now announcing your entrance now? Do we bow, scrape and grovel or just throw up? It is one piece of information we may actually take on from you as what is correct.
Now, back under your bridge (and no, it is not the network kind).
Sorry Bah! This is Renai’s sand pit and we all have to play nicely with his “friends”. Though some of them may be questionable.
But hey, differences in people do make the world a far more entertaining place. His rules are set here and up to him to police them and show he also can live within his own rules. Are we going to make him sign a Delimiter Magna Carta? LOL I don’t think so.
See …LOL
I do notice too he has deleted a lot of posts that were not insulting or rude in any way. Posts that simply check mated some of alains “points”. If this place is going to be policed like the Australian why both even bother to comment here at all?
Checkmated my points, you don’t even come close, dream on.
Can you show me a NBN Plan that does all of that?
It’s Optus $39.90 NBN plan.
Point out this key bit of that Optus plan:
“unlimited voice calls, national and international, unlimited texting national and international?”
“Point out this key bit of that Optus plan”
Where does it say they are limited? You can make as many calls and do as many texts as you like. I don’t know of any provider that says, no more calls this month sorry, you have had your hundred.
We are referring to the Naked $39.90 plan (+ $19 prepay mobile), not the Fusion plans which include unlimited calls, the cheapest plan for all of that is $109.
I don’t see what you mean alain, all phone plans have unlimited calls, even the Telstra 22.95 home line budget. Nothing stops you from making as many calls as you like.
@Noddy
“all phone plans have unlimited calls, even the Telstra 22.95 home line budget.”
No it doesn’t, calls are on top of that and because the line rental is the lowest of any Telco call rates are the highest around.
Here read how it works with Telstra and their PSTN plans.
http://telstra.com.au/home-phone/plans-rates-connections/
Now please do me a favour, read all of the posts pertaining to this subject which is the new OPTUS NBN PLANS from the top where Salami stated this:
“Can you show me a NBN Plan that does all of that?
answer from Salami:
It’s Optus $39.90 NBN plan.”
… and have another big think what it is all about before posting.
Sorry, can you point it out for me alain? I can’t see what you mean. I had homeline budget at one time and I was never limited on the calls I could make.
@alain, as expected, right on cue…show me this, show me that. I can guarantee you it’s 1000% unlimited nationa, international voice and text. Throw in guarantee 20+ Mbps connection. If I have to show you, it means you dont know enough about the NBN or internet in general. Thanks for stopping by.
Also it’s not really a ‘$39.90 plan’ at all is it, to get it you need to also sign up for a Optus post pay mobile plan, value $19 or above.
It doesn’t to be FTTP to achieve that.
It is still a rort. You still get charged twice – once for volume and again for speed. And contrary to what is espoused, nobody to date is getting 100mb/s for current ADSL rates for anything like a reasonable volume for that speed. The original basis for the NBN as I understand it was that it was to be a 100mb/s facilit; problem is that is been delivered at unaffordable rates.
See…LOL!
Lets see. For how many billion (Turnbull won’t say) we can have what we have now. Just slightly faster.
Or, for a bit more, we can have NBN. One is being built, one isn’t. One is showing by action, the other is based on inaction.
Really, why is this even an argument any more?
You can argue the NBN will be “infinately more expensive forever, you NBN freaks!” or you can join the real world and understand that over time, the price will not fall overly, but that the value proposition will change.
Because what we can take away from the decades of ADSL, is that the (average) underlying price doesn’t really drop – what you get for that price has massively increased.
In the same way, you will get X for $Y via the NBN. Over time, the $Y won’t change that much. However X will increase/ gain value over time.
And anyone, ANYONE still claiming the NBN won’t make money, needs to take a look at how much money has been generated from the CAN, over the past decade or two. To assume, AUTOMATICALLY that that cannot possibly be the case for FTTH, is really, I’m sorry to say, retarded.
It is a cash cow. In 10-15 years, the notion it was somehow going to end up a costly mistake will be laughed at. Heartily.
Oh, I was wrong. Some of alain’s posts are gone. There were a few ones where he dug himself into a big hole that have disappeared too.
I hadn’t looked for phone only plans. It looks like iPrimus has one. No setup fees. $24.95
a month. Free local and national calls. 33c per minute to mobiles. Free voice mail, free calling number display. Still more expensive for those that make less than a phonecall a week. Someone on the Telstra homeline budget and never uses it could save $2 a month.
Hmm, this is interesting. I made very sure at all times I kept well within the frame work of politeness and well within the bounds of Alain’s previous posts. I do also notice an distict political slant in deletions. Who knows who at Delimiter? Maybe a copy of the Manga Carta should be wave around to just remind what lack of cred in keeping the rules and results that can occur when you don’t, for those with power. Play fair and nice and a fair go to having been heard. Alas, not so here. I think I may just go elsewhere. Dissapointing. Note to cancel subscription in email. I don’t subscribe to political sites. :{(
Indeed TechinBris…
I too, rest my case (for now…)
Actually, here is a point worth discussing. Alain went missing in action from this one when BS was called on his claim that all the money was for the exc
hange. Then went on to change what is was for. Changed it to all sorts of things other than the complete task of replacing the exchange and putting in the fibre which it adequatly cover. Now this comment slips in.
“What’s a privately funded rollout in Sth Brisbane got to do with Optus NBN pricing piggy backing on top of a taxpayer funded rollout and subsidised NBN Co wholesale pricing?”
The privately funded South Brisbane, taxpayer funded NBN.
I’d like to ignore the argument that the money wasn’t to fund the South Brisbane fibre. Before SUnday trading you may have been able to say you bought a book for $500 and got a free pool table thrown in, it was playing with numbers.
Privately funded South Brisbane. hmmm, 2/3rd of it was a straight payment. Ok they should be recompensed for the exchange…. funny the giure though, it pretty much covers a per household cost that matches the NBN rollout per house hold. 1/3rd government loan. OK, that will be paid back.
NBN rollout. Publicly funded? Huh? How is a loan to Telstra from the government to be paid back “Privately funded” with most of the amount a payment that ISN’T replayed Privately funded> Yet the NBN that the huge majority of the money is a loan from the government, to be paid back is interpreted as taxpayer funded?
Also the strategy is your strategy. Ignoring what people post and replying ask though the never said something or said something else.
FYI I have deleted quite a few posts in this thread which were extremely impolite, most of which were by the poster named ‘Noddy’, who has now been banned.
Renai
FYI I’m seeing some database weirdness on this thread — replies not threading correctly, time stamps wrong and so on. In addition, it has gone a bit feral in terms of the discussion. So I’m closing it for now.
Renai
Comments are closed.