New NSW Govt may reject NBN opt-out

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blog We were kind of stunned when the new Coalition Government in Victoria rejected the ‘opt-out’ approach to rolling out the National Broadband Network. After all, we thought … with the Federal Government paying for it and no real downside to having fibre rolled out everywhere, by default, what is there to possibly object to?

Following the state’s controversial choice — which industry representative body the AIIA slammed in public — we tried to get other states to comment on their own preferences. At the time those we contacted other states such as NSW to get their views on the matter, but couldn’t get them to comment. However, in yesterday’s Financial Review, the issue broke out into the public arena again:

“NSW Nationals leader Andrew Stoner has vowed to oppose automatic connection to the $35.9 billion project if elected, a position contradicted by state opposition spokesperson for financial management Greg Pearce.”

The guts of Stoner’s opposition to the opt-out option already being implemented by Tasmania appear to be Labor are crap and that people would have fibre to their house without asking for it. Wow. That sounds almost as sophisticated as Labor’s the Internet is full of dodgy material, let’s filter it at the ISP level argument. Some things just can’t be distilled down into a one sentence political message.

Needless to say, we hope common sense prevails here. It makes absolutely no sense to set up a multi-billion dollar National Broadband Network project and then rely on the common sense of the everyday property owner to have it installed. This thing needs to be more structured than that. Collecting millions upon millions of permission slips is a waste of time for NBN Co.

Image credit: Dane Munro, royalty free

34 COMMENTS

  1. I would guess that 90% of the Australian public won’t give a rat’s about the fibre connection being there or not. I mean, if it’s there, they’ll use it, but if it’s not then they still have their ADSL/Cable.

    What I would be interested to hear from the NBN Co. is how they will handle property owners that do NOT want it connected when it’s rolled out to a street – I know several owners of small apartment blocks who have said that they will NOT have it connected (sort of like Cable and Foxtel before satellite) because they perceive that it’s going to cost THEM directly, and not their tenants.

    They can’t understand that it will REPLACE their existing copper connections and be more reliable/faster – bloody luddites…

    • The two possibilities are opt-in or opt-out. In both cases, NBNCo will send a letter to owners saying that they’re coming around. In the opt-out model, if you don’t want the connection then you can respond to NBNCo’s letter and say “no, thanks”.

      In the opt-in model, then you have to respond to the mail if you do want the connection.

      The stupid thing is, there’s nothing being “forced” on you in either case. But if we assume the majority of people do want the connection (or don’t care either way) then opt-in is far more efficient (because fewer people need to respond).

  2. It’s a good move, following the lead by the newly elected Coalition Government in Victoria, it forces the end user to think “Do I really need this”?

    That means the two biggest populated states will not be connected by the ‘do nothing’ default option.

    Pro NBN pundits don’t really want the punters to think too hard.

    • Alain, whether you agree with it or not.. the NBN is getting rolled out.
      Idiotic political games like this are only going to end up costing the people – whether it be through the govt funding of NBN, or when the copper is eventually decommissioned and they are left stranded.

      I’m neither a Coalition nor a Labour supporter so I have no bias here, but lets get one thing straight, this isn’t about getting people to think, or empowering them… this is about setting up the most expensive piece of infrastructure in Australia’s history to fail, so that the Coalition can then say.. ‘haha, told you so, Labour had no idea what they were doing’ when in fact their political games would be what played a major part in it.

    • Perhaps they should adopt the ‘every individual person should think about it’ approach for every large to minute infrastructure installation/upgrade in the future. Would that please you?

  3. From the lead article:

    “We were kind of stunned when the new Coalition Government in Victoria rejected the ‘opt-out’ approach to rolling out the National Broadband Network.”

    Well stunned as in we the minority opinion of a few in a tech geek web site?

    “After all, we thought … with the Federal Government paying for it and no real downside to having fibre rolled out everywhere, by default, what is there to possibly object to?”

    What other than the total waste of connecting up FTTH to residences that don’t need it you mean?

    ” It makes absolutely no sense to set up a multi-billion dollar National Broadband Network project and then rely on the common sense of the everyday property owner to have it installed. This thing needs to be more structured than that. ”

    You mean by ‘more structured than that’ is that the everyday property owner is not up to the task of analysing in a rational manner the benefits or not of a FTTH connection and then deciding they don’t want it by refusing to sign a form to have it connected.

    This totally arrogant assumption on the lack of any mental ability to make a rational decision for their own purposes is based on what?

    “Collecting millions upon millions of permission slips is a waste of time for NBN Co”

    That’s assuming it is ‘millions upon millions’.

    • That’s assuming it is ‘millions upon millions’.

      Why wouldn’t it be? First-release sites are seeing take-up rates above 90% for the initial free connection. Even if we assume it’s only as low as 50% of people overall who take up the free connection (not even worrying about actual services) then that’s still over 3.5 million homes.

      It seems to me the people advocating opt-out are only doing so because they want the take-up numbers to appear as low as possible. The people who want the NBN are going to get it no matter what. The people who don’t want it are not going to get it no matter what. It’s only the people who don’t really care either way who will actually be affected. What’s the advantage, if someone doesn’t care, of not connecting them? Isn’t it better to just connect them while the workers are already there going past their house anyway? Whether it’s opt-in or opt-out, people still have the opportunity to say “no”.

      Assuming that the number of people who want the free NBN hook-up is > 50% of house holds, then opt-in is the logical choice.

      • @Dean

        “First-release sites are seeing take-up rates above 90% for the initial free connection.”

        Well it depends on which first release site you are looking at here, obviously you prefer the 90% one, what’s that – Armidale?

        “It seems to me the people advocating opt-out are only doing so because they want the take-up numbers to appear as low as possible”

        As distinct from the people advocating opt-in who want to the take up numbers to be as high as possible you mean?

        “It’s only the people who don’t really care either way who will actually be affected. What’s the advantage, if someone doesn’t care, of not connecting them?”

        I like the way there is this arrogant assumption about the masses that don’t care that they should have a NBN connection anyway, because why? – you know what’s best for people who supposedly don’t care, because you supposedly know about these IT tech geek things and they shouldn’t have to worry it?

        “Whether it’s opt-in or opt-out, people still have the opportunity to say “no”.”

        Exactly so why is everyone so worried about opt-out being adopted by a state, what are you afraid of here, people thinking about it a bit more because they have to sign a form and you don’t want that to happen?

        We can take that principle to the national vote for a Government, how about we make voting non-compulsory and if you don’t vote at all we will assume you want to retain the existing Government.

        “Assuming that the number of people who want the free NBN hook-up is > 50% of house holds, then opt-in is the logical choice.”

        It is? where did you pull that magic figure from, you could quite equally say assuming <50% want the free hook-up then opt-out is the logical choice.

        I tell you what how about we it make even more detailed, when you sign the form that you want a 'free connection' you also have to nominate from the provided list of plans which ISP you want your NBN BB Plan with.

        That would kill the rollout dead in its tracks eh?

        • Exactly so why is everyone so worried about opt-out being adopted by a state, what are you afraid of here, people thinking about it a bit more because they have to sign a form and you don’t want that to happen?

          I’m afraid that I’ll be buying a house in 10 years time and the previous owner didn’t bother to return the opt-in form so now I’ll be slugged with a fee to hook to the NBN. Obviously I can’t stop someone who actively doesn’t want the connection…

          Besides, the option is there to opt-out no matter what. It’s obvious that for the NBN to have the best chance of success, the number of people hooking up needs to be maximized. Why, other than because you’re trying to be obstructive, would you make it harder than required for people sign up?

          • ’I’m afraid that I’ll be buying a house in 10 years time and the previous owner didn’t bother to return the opt-in form so now I’ll be slugged with a fee to hook to the NBN”

            What ‘slug of a fee in’ 2021 is that then that would be deal breaker for you when buying that house? :)

            If you bought a house in say inner Melbourne or Sydney in the next 3 months would you be afraid of buying a house that doesn’t already have a Optus or Telstra HFC connection because the previous owner ‘didn’t bother’?

            “It’s obvious that for the NBN to have the best chance of success, the number of people hooking up needs to be maximized.”

            Well of course it is, even if that means hooking up residences that don’t actually use it.

            “would you make it harder than required for people sign up?”

            Ticking a YES box on a reply paid card or on the NBN Co website is too hard is it?

          • Well if you had any principals at all elaine, you’d actually pay more for a house which HASN’T been connected to the demon NBN wouldn’t you?

        • It is? where did you pull that magic figure from, you could quite equally say assuming <50% want the free hook-up then opt-out is the logical choice.

          I got the “magic” figure from the fact that it would be better to have to process fewer forms than to process more. So, using this thing call “math” I decided that if more people wanted the free connection than did non. then opt-in is the easiest option.

          I know of only Brunswick in Melbourne which has a 49% take-up of the free connection. What other sites are < 50%? The average across all sites is 73%. Why would you assume it's < 50% when the reality is actually quite different?

          • “Why would you assume it’s < 50% when the reality is actually quite different?"

            Why would you assume that he cares about reality? Alain is the local anti-NBN troll.

          • So, using this thing call “math” I decided that if more people wanted the free connection than did non. then opt-in is the easiest option.

            Yes but your so called math doesn’t add up because you use around 50% as your determinant.

            Under opt-in 50% send in a form because they don’t want it, under opt-out 50% send in a form because they do want it – same no of replies to be processed is it not?

            It is interesting that the Government of Tasmania originally had a opt-out model, that is you were not automatically connected, the response was dismal, hey we will fix that we will change it to opt-in – nice one.

            “What other sites are < 50%?"

            Tasmania.

            "Why would you assume it's < 50% when the reality is actually quite different?"

            err because it isn't maybe?

          • Under opt-in 50% send in a form because they don’t want it, under opt-out 50% send in a form because they do want it – same no of replies to be processed is it not?

            I said more than 50%. Of course if it’s exactly 50% then it doesn’t matter either way. The national average so far is 73% – much more than 50% don’t you think? So either NBNCo has to process 27% opt-out forms, or they have to process 73% opt-in forms… which is easier?

            It is interesting that the Government of Tasmania originally had a opt-out model, that is you were not automatically connected, the response was dismal, hey we will fix that we will change it to opt-in – nice one.

            All pre-release sites so far have been opt-in.

            Tasmania.

            Tasmania is 51%.

            “Why would you assume it’s < 50% when the reality is actually quite different?"

            err because it isn't maybe?

            73% is less than 50%?

          • “The national average so far is 73% –”

            There is nothing ‘national’ about that average, have a look at the NBN rollout foot print, count the number of households in Australia that are actually using NBN BB today as a proportion of BB use from all types, then you say that represents what all of Australia will therefore do and means that ‘automatic connect unless you say NO’ is the way to go?

            The national average – you are having a joke, you mean the limited pilot average of ‘why not it’s free’ connections within restricted areas of some states?

            “Tasmania is 51%”

            Nice one Dean, tell the full story:

            51% (2040) consented to being NBN-ready.
            Of that 51%, 21.3% have taken up a service
            Of the initial 4000, 10.9% (436) have taken up a service.

          • There is nothing ‘national’ about that average

            So if you’re not going to look at the current situation and take your numbers from that, where are you getting your figures from? Thin air?

            Nice one Dean, tell the full story:
            51% (2040) consented to being NBN-ready.
            Of that 51%, 21.3% have taken up a service
            Of the initial 4000, 10.9% (436) have taken up a service.

            What are we talking about here? That’s right, we’re talking about the number of people consenting to be NBN-ready – opt-in vs. opt-out.

          • @Dean

            “So if you’re not going to look at the current situation and take your numbers from that,”

            I’m not you are, you are asserting that the NATIONAL average of a ‘hands up for a free connection’ figure should be used as a basis for the automatic connection policy, that’s fine except it is NOT a national average or even close to it.

            Call it the limited selected areas pilot average.

            “What are we talking about here? That’s right, we’re talking about the number of people consenting to be NBN-ready –”

            No YOU are, leave the WE bit out of it, the consenting to be NBN ready figure is not the same thing as the we are using the NBN figure, as shown by the abysmal figures from the first rollout sites in Tasmania.

            I tell you what Dean how about we use the Tasmanian pilot figures of residences actually USING THE NBN as it is the first pilot areas that have been NBN active for the longest period by far as the basis for the automatic connect policy – not likely – don’t go there eh?
            Of course all sorts no factual based theories come out of the pro-NBN spin machine about Tassie – “oh they are under contract with existing ISP’s must be the reason,” I then asked the question you know this how? – no answer of course.

            The other not to crash hot figures on NBN takeup in part of Brunswick in inner Melbourne is explained as “oh there is a high proportion of renters, and the landlords are hard to contact” – huh? -yeah right that must be it.
            Being a high density inner city suburb in one of Australia’s biggest cities with many high speed alternative BB choices available to them cannot possibly be the reason, it’s the rational explanation, but rationality and spin are not the same thing.

          • No YOU are, leave the WE bit out of it

            OK, if you’re going to talk about things completely unrelated to whether or not the initial (free) connection should be opt-in or opt-out, then I give up. Congratulations, by taking the discussion so far off-topic, you’ve won.

          • Yes I thought rather than address the points in rational manner that you would give it a miss.

            The points are definitely related to a opt-in,/opt-out discussion, YOU just don’t like the way I was taking it, you obviously like the agenda to be set up for your advantage, which is not the same thing as it being un-related.

          • Right, so the fact that 73% of people so far have opted-in is irrelevant to whether or not it should be opt-in. OK, keep cherry-picking your numbers to suit your agenda and I’m sure you’ll win every time.

          • First of all the I am glad you have dropped the ‘national average’ label from that figure, I have explained that that figure is not a fair representation anyway because of the minuscule population sample as being anywhere close to being the proper way to dictating what a national opt-in/opt-out policy should be.
            Secondly it doesn’t really matter what rational you or I or anyone else assert as to what the policy should be, we can argue figures back and forth until we are blue in the face.

            The NBN is a Labor Federal Government political decision, the opt-in/out policy is a state by state political decision, which has nothing whatever to do with the rational/practical way to do it .

            :)

  4. Dean…

    In this magical place called FUDland and to those who dwell within… the FUDsters 9yes we all know who they are)… 73% can of course be more than 50%, simply because they say so (today)!

    Facts are of no importance or consequence to FUDsters! The most important thing to the FUDster is “ego”, followed by complete “BS”!… which of course all of us humans, poke fun at…LOL, especially the ego…!

    But of course any FUDster claim can change completely at any time, depending upon the head FUDsters latest debate and which FUD is required, at that time.

    You only have to look at previous comments from alain (posting as persona #2, advocate, over at ZD) …

    “You betcha, the NBN will be a ‘success’ because all the fixed line competitors are eliminated by its owner the Australian Government – simple process of how a monopoly works”..

    One week later to the day, he was claiming “like HFC the NBN will be a failure”…as he is again inferring above…!

    LOL…….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • @Renai LeMay

        I tell what is also free, cutting and pasting comments from two totally different article discussion pieces from a totally different site from this one, placing them together as if they follow each other in a blatant out of context manner and then pretending you have a inconsistency.

        • Alain, please look further abroad than Malcolm Turnbull’s Blog and The Australian for your information on the NBN.

          Cheers.

  5. As the ISPs start dropping their adsl plans and Telstra is the last one standing the accc isn’t going to save the poor sods left on adsl.

    Thankfully it will be a matter of public record over who to direct angry owners/renters to.

    It’s not just dumb, it’s dumb politics that will bite them on the arse if they’re in power.

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