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	<title>Comments on: Does Australia have &#8220;cyber space weapons&#8221;?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/</link>
	<description>Just Australia. Just technology.</description>
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		<title>By: PiDicus Rex</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29510</link>
		<dc:creator>PiDicus Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29510</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why would a botnet used for defensive, or offensive, or for that matter censorship (a la the Conroy model) need to run of the PC of &#039;Ordinary Citizens&#039;.
Surely there&#039;d already be enough PC&#039;s within government dept&#039;s that could have a botnet running in the background day in day out.
It&#039;s the sort of thing that the Defense Dept could slip in to the OS install on every PC bought with government money.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would a botnet used for defensive, or offensive, or for that matter censorship (a la the Conroy model) need to run of the PC of &#8216;Ordinary Citizens&#8217;.<br />
Surely there&#8217;d already be enough PC&#8217;s within government dept&#8217;s that could have a botnet running in the background day in day out.<br />
It&#8217;s the sort of thing that the Defense Dept could slip in to the OS install on every PC bought with government money.</p>
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		<title>By: Echidna</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29231</link>
		<dc:creator>Echidna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 07:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes there are can be and are ICT based offensive and defencing systems. 
These specialised systems and other systems can be employed as weapons, to damage, disrupt and disable adversaries, by state and non-state actors on networks and in other digital contexts.

That you don&#039;t recognise they exist doesn&#039;t matter because you are wrong.

The attacks on Estonia and Georgia were real. 
The access the Stuxnet had/has to SCADA systems is real. 
Vulnerabilities in ECUs in our cars are real.

A bottle or a rock or a chair can be weapons, the definition of &#039;a weapon&#039; is and has always been about context and intent as well as potential.

Two Boeing passenger aircraft are probably the most notorious weapons used by anyone so far in the twenty-first century.

As you&#039;ve implied that you think militaries make decisions about desirable capabilities based on thinking &quot;what a cool weapon&quot;, there&#039;s really no wonder that you fail to grok the full scale of infosec today.

Yes it does go all the way down to IDS, firewalls and anti-malware and goes all the way up to NSA and the US Cyber-command.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes there are can be and are ICT based offensive and defencing systems.<br />
These specialised systems and other systems can be employed as weapons, to damage, disrupt and disable adversaries, by state and non-state actors on networks and in other digital contexts.</p>
<p>That you don&#8217;t recognise they exist doesn&#8217;t matter because you are wrong.</p>
<p>The attacks on Estonia and Georgia were real.<br />
The access the Stuxnet had/has to SCADA systems is real.<br />
Vulnerabilities in ECUs in our cars are real.</p>
<p>A bottle or a rock or a chair can be weapons, the definition of &#8216;a weapon&#8217; is and has always been about context and intent as well as potential.</p>
<p>Two Boeing passenger aircraft are probably the most notorious weapons used by anyone so far in the twenty-first century.</p>
<p>As you&#8217;ve implied that you think militaries make decisions about desirable capabilities based on thinking &#8220;what a cool weapon&#8221;, there&#8217;s really no wonder that you fail to grok the full scale of infosec today.</p>
<p>Yes it does go all the way down to IDS, firewalls and anti-malware and goes all the way up to NSA and the US Cyber-command.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29213</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 05:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A weapon is something you can build and then &quot;launch&quot; in times of war. But you cannot build a botnet and &quot;launch&quot; it when the war begins: you would have to start building the botnet *now* (and remember, &quot;building&quot; a botnet means infecting ordinary citizens computers with software that they have not authorized) so that it&#039;s big enough to have an effect when the war begins. I certainly HOPE our government never contemplates something like that.

Perhaps by &quot;weapon&quot;, you could be referring to the actual people. Perhaps you could have people working on ways to exploit existing botnets for the purposes of warfare. But I would suggest that it would be better to have those people working on ways to *shut down* the botnet, than to somehow exploit it. But that would be a defensive policy...

Also, I just want to say I hate the phrase &quot;cyber security&quot;. Puts in my mind images of mechanical men screeching &quot;You will be upgraded!&quot; Can&#039;t we just call it &quot;security&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A weapon is something you can build and then &#8220;launch&#8221; in times of war. But you cannot build a botnet and &#8220;launch&#8221; it when the war begins: you would have to start building the botnet *now* (and remember, &#8220;building&#8221; a botnet means infecting ordinary citizens computers with software that they have not authorized) so that it&#8217;s big enough to have an effect when the war begins. I certainly HOPE our government never contemplates something like that.</p>
<p>Perhaps by &#8220;weapon&#8221;, you could be referring to the actual people. Perhaps you could have people working on ways to exploit existing botnets for the purposes of warfare. But I would suggest that it would be better to have those people working on ways to *shut down* the botnet, than to somehow exploit it. But that would be a defensive policy&#8230;</p>
<p>Also, I just want to say I hate the phrase &#8220;cyber security&#8221;. Puts in my mind images of mechanical men screeching &#8220;You will be upgraded!&#8221; Can&#8217;t we just call it &#8220;security&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Renai LeMay</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29210</link>
		<dc:creator>Renai LeMay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 05:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29210</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These things are not &quot;weapons&quot;. They are &quot;hacks&quot; or even &quot;surveillance&quot;. &quot;Weapon&quot; makes them sound ridiculous. Nobody carrying a gun is going to look at a script and think &quot;what a cool weapon&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These things are not &#8220;weapons&#8221;. They are &#8220;hacks&#8221; or even &#8220;surveillance&#8221;. &#8220;Weapon&#8221; makes them sound ridiculous. Nobody carrying a gun is going to look at a script and think &#8220;what a cool weapon&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dalton</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29205</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dalton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 05:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What about a piece of software which gives you access to the enemy&#039;s weapons? Remember the reports of Iraqi insurgents gaining access to live video feeds from Predator drones? That was an enormous oversight, obviously, but it doesn&#039;t give me much confidence that the command &amp; control comms are completely safe…

A botnet can be used to deny access to just about anything, assuming it can talk to the network you need to target. You can use it to target servers, end users, or intermediate infrastructure.  A device (including software) which gives you the ability to deny the enemy access to their own communications, or to intercept an enemy&#039;s communications sounds like a weapon to me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about a piece of software which gives you access to the enemy&#8217;s weapons? Remember the reports of Iraqi insurgents gaining access to live video feeds from Predator drones? That was an enormous oversight, obviously, but it doesn&#8217;t give me much confidence that the command &amp; control comms are completely safe…</p>
<p>A botnet can be used to deny access to just about anything, assuming it can talk to the network you need to target. You can use it to target servers, end users, or intermediate infrastructure.  A device (including software) which gives you the ability to deny the enemy access to their own communications, or to intercept an enemy&#8217;s communications sounds like a weapon to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Renai LeMay</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29204</link>
		<dc:creator>Renai LeMay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 05:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Frankly, calling a piece of computer software a &quot;weapon&quot; is hyperbole.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, calling a piece of computer software a &#8220;weapon&#8221; is hyperbole.</p>
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		<title>By: None</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29202</link>
		<dc:creator>None</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 04:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29202</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, the USA considers some cyber &quot;things&quot; as weapons, or munitions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the USA considers some cyber &#8220;things&#8221; as weapons, or munitions.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29199</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 04:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also worms - consider Stuxnet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also worms &#8211; consider Stuxnet.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://delimiter.com.au/2010/11/09/does-australia-have-cyber-space-weapons/#comment-29198</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 04:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://delimiter.com.au/?p=9688#comment-29198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Botnets are a weapon, absolutely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Botnets are a weapon, absolutely.</p>
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